The Instigator
Mr.sarcastic
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Wylted
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points

US flag shirt ban

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Wylted
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/14/2014 Category: Society
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 963 times Debate No: 49136
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (11)
Votes (1)

 

Mr.sarcastic

Con

This debate is on whether or not a shirt with the United States flag on it should be banned from schools in the United States. This has happened in a Californian school. If you would like to learn more about this news story, click the link. http://www.cnn.com...

1st round: Acceptance
2nd round: Opening arguments
3rd round: Rebuttal
4th round: Closing arguments

I look forward to having this debate and wish good luck to my opponent. Thank you.
Wylted

Pro

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
Mr.sarcastic

Con

To begin, I am an American and quite proud to be one. I am very blessed to live in a mostly free country. Now, answer me this. How can someone in the United States of America, a person,or a student in this case, not be able to wear a shirt with his or her own country's flag on it. How can someone make such a decision as to ban a shirt like that, on any day, foreign or American, tradition or holiday? It is a complete disgrace to any American and frankly may them feel almost livid. Men and women have sacrificed their lives, giving up everything for the meaning that behind that flag. Another thing to mention is that why should I have to respect and honor a foreign holiday? Who can tell me when I can a wear a US flag shirt in the United States? It's an absolute shame and should have never happened or even have been considered.
Wylted

Pro

Introduction

It's clear from the 1st round and some if the comments in the 2nd round that con is arguing against the actions taken by the school mentioned in the article he linked to.

Context

The school's decision needs context. Live Oak High School, had a lot of racial tension between students of Hispanic origin and other races within the school. This particular school was having a problem with gangs. The previous Cinko De Mayo, a riot almost broke out over the display of an American flag. This is the context that must be understood, to understand the principal's actions.

School administrators have an obligation to keep students safe. It doesn't matter how PC a decision is. They need to keep the students safe. Now the principal sees a group of kids walking down the hall on Cinco De Mayo, wearing shirts with the American flag on them. The principal has a decision. Does he protect these kids freedom of expression by remaining silent? If he does this, he knows it could cause a riot and more then just the kids involved in inciting the riot could get hurt.

Or, does the principal take immediate action to prevent uncontrollable violence?

Freedom of expression

Freedom of expression isn't protected in cases that are likely to result in a riot. We can see from the context of the situation, that allowing the kids to wear American flag shirts on that day could possibly result in a riot. In Supreme Court case Brandenburg vs Ohio, it was determined that freedom of speech wasn't protected in cases likely to lead to a riot.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Conclusion

As you can see, the principal had a moral obligation to ban American Flags on that day. You can also see that the kids freedom of expression(speech), wasn't violated.
Debate Round No. 2
Mr.sarcastic

Con

In your first paragraph you talk about fights and riots almost happening and how there was "racial tension." I do not see how this is the American student's fault. He is simply wearing a shirt that he is proud of. Who are the Mexicans to say anything about that. And it's the Mexicans starting fights with their "gangs", not the Americans. The students who were the shirt on previous occasions did absolutely nothing wrong. The Mexicans are the ones who should be punish or disciplined. Since, after all, they are the ones starting all the trouble.

I do not understand why we, Americans, should be obligated to listen to foreigners. They came to this country, they are the ones celebrating a Mexican based holiday in America, they are the ones disrupting the school. They should listen to us, not the other way around. If anything they should not be able to wear shirts with the Mexican flag, not us. But they are allowed to wear a Mexican flag t-shirt because that it their first amendment right. How is it that a student cannot wear a shirt with an American flag on a selected day when right outside the school there is a flag flying outside along with flags in every room.

Your conclusion is, in my opinion, completely wrong. How absurd it it to hear of banning American Flag t-shirts, IN AMERICA!!? It is downright disgusting. Not only that, but it without a doubt violates the first amendment. The school board along with the three judges who made the court decision have impeded the First Amendment. Just because someone doesn't like the message someone is saying does not mean you are allowed to take their rights away. The students simply were an American Flag shirt because they re proud of where they live. They did not start any fights or riots. Once again, it was the Mexicans. Simply, this was a very bad decision.
Wylted

Pro

Right vs Wrong

In some situations who's right and who's wrong doesn't matter. The principal doesn't have the time to analyze what who is right or wrong. He has to keep his students safe. In this situation it doesn't matter who's right. All that matters is him keeping the students safe.

Imagine working at a convenience store. A person comes in with a gun and demands all the money in the register. What do you do? Do you sit there and explain to him he is in the wrong.....

Of course not. You give him the money. When there is a threat of violence the rules change.

I agree that it is wrong, that those kids can't wear an American flag shirt, because of the threat of a riot. However, in this situation you have to pick the lesser of 2 evils.

First Amendment

Banning the American flag in that situation doesn't violate the first amendment. The Supreme Court has ruled in Brandenburg vs Ohio that in situations like the the one, the principal faced, that the first amendment doesn't protect those kids. The California school you're referring to was also ruled to have not violated the constitution in an appeals court.

Let's not forget there are other parties in this situation not involved, that could get hurt. I'll leave you with a famous quote I think is applicable to this situation.

"Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins"

John B. Finch

http://quoteinvestigator.com...
Debate Round No. 3
Mr.sarcastic

Con

You use the analogy of a convenience store clerk and a robber. That is different in the point that the threat cannot be removed. In the school, suspending the Mexican students, who are the ones starting riots, would eliminate the threat of any violence. By doing so the Americans can freely wear their shirts and embrace the First Amendment and their pride in their country..

I don't understand why you would say you also agree it is wrong for the school and judges to say they cannot wear it. You basically have just given up. You just admitted I am right.

You refer to anonymous parties possibly being hurt, but don't mention them. I would have liked further explanation of these "parties."

Another thing is that the quote you mentioned, it is completely irrelevant to a t-shirt.

Now, I'll leave you with a very famous quote by Edmund Burke. "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." If people do not stand up for what they believe in and give into society, especially something patriotic, then it becomes an absolute shame.

In conclusion, I have enjoyed this debate and am glad to have had it. I do know, however, that I will be wearing an American flag t-shirt on Cinco de Mayo my current, which is also my first, year of high school. Thank you.
Wylted

Pro

"You use the analogy of a convenience store clerk and a robber. That is different in the point that the threat cannot be removed. In the school, suspending the Mexican students, who are the ones starting riots, would eliminate the threat of any violence. By doing so the Americans can freely wear their shirts and embrace the First Amendment and their pride in their country."

You don't know which "Mexican" students, would be a threat to start a riot or do something that could turn into a riot. Now you'd be violating the rights of innocent Hispanic students, and doing so in an extremely racist way.

"I don't understand why you would say you also agree it is wrong for the school and judges to say they cannot wear it. You basically have just given up. You just admitted I am right."

No, I never said the school or judges acted wrong. I was stating that the situation was wrong. The gangs present in the school, the racial tension etc.

I wish those things didn't exist, so that the students would be free to wear their shirts.

"You refer to anonymous parties possibly being hurt, but don't mention them. I would have liked further explanation of these "parties.""

This is just common sense. A massive amount of people fighting would likely cause students trying to avoid the fight get hurt, administrators trying to break up the riot could be hurt and police responding to the situation could get hurt.

"Another thing is that the quote you mentioned, it is completely irrelevant to a t-shirt."

The point of the quote, was to show that your freedom shouldn't infringe on someone else's freedom. Wearing the t-shirt infringes on other kid's right to have a safe school environment.

"Now, I'll leave you with a very famous quote by Edmund Burke. "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." If people do not stand up for what they believe in and give into society, especially something patriotic, then it becomes an absolute shame."

This has nothing to do with good or evil. It was a safety concern.
Debate Round No. 4
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Mr.sarcastic 2 years ago
Mr.sarcastic
Mexican*
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
Remember that quote you gave about good men standing aside and letting evil prevail?

If this t-shirt issue bothers you, than you should go befriend some Hispanic kids and invite them into your inner circle.
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
Racial tensions, lead to security concerns, lead to banning t-shirt. It has everything to do with banning t-shirts.

It's an issue that goes a little deeper, than what you're giving it credit for.
Posted by Mr.sarcastic 2 years ago
Mr.sarcastic
This clearly has nothing to do with banning an American Flag t-shirt.
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
The racial tensions, that are causing those kids to lose some freedom of expression are there, because the Hispanic students aren't fully integrated into American society. Part of that is the hispanic's own fault and part of it is the fault of people treating them like outsiders.

If they are being told they don't belong and they should go back to Mexico, how would anyone ever expect them to ever truly feel pride and belonging in America.

If they feel like Mexicans instead feeling like Americans, then racial tension will persist.
Posted by Mr.sarcastic 2 years ago
Mr.sarcastic
What are you talking about?
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
Don't ever b*tch about them not integrating, if you're going to have that attitude.
Posted by Mr.sarcastic 2 years ago
Mr.sarcastic
It's not disrespectful. Call them what they are. And they need to go take their Cinco de Mayo back to Mexico, where it belongs.
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
Cinco De Mayo, is really only celebrated in America. It's a corporate holiday. Since the students in this school are American citizens, I find it disrespectful to call them Mexicans. Hispanic is probably the more appropriate term.
Posted by Mr.sarcastic 2 years ago
Mr.sarcastic
Also, last round was closing arguments, NOT A REBUTTAL!
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
Mr.sarcasticWyltedTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro simply had the more solid arguments in the debate, and they were better supported. Con spoke from a position of emotional anger, as well as a bit of xenophobia or racial hatred (can't really tell which), but never impacted his statements. His best response comes from stating that the principle could have done something else, but Pro rightly points out that there's no way to do this effectively. Safety wins out over rights, Pro wins.