US flag shirt ban
Debate Rounds (4)
1st round: Acceptance
2nd round: Opening arguments
3rd round: Rebuttal
4th round: Closing arguments
I look forward to having this debate and wish good luck to my opponent. Thank you.
It's clear from the 1st round and some if the comments in the 2nd round that con is arguing against the actions taken by the school mentioned in the article he linked to.
The school's decision needs context. Live Oak High School, had a lot of racial tension between students of Hispanic origin and other races within the school. This particular school was having a problem with gangs. The previous Cinko De Mayo, a riot almost broke out over the display of an American flag. This is the context that must be understood, to understand the principal's actions.
School administrators have an obligation to keep students safe. It doesn't matter how PC a decision is. They need to keep the students safe. Now the principal sees a group of kids walking down the hall on Cinco De Mayo, wearing shirts with the American flag on them. The principal has a decision. Does he protect these kids freedom of expression by remaining silent? If he does this, he knows it could cause a riot and more then just the kids involved in inciting the riot could get hurt.
Or, does the principal take immediate action to prevent uncontrollable violence?
Freedom of expression
Freedom of expression isn't protected in cases that are likely to result in a riot. We can see from the context of the situation, that allowing the kids to wear American flag shirts on that day could possibly result in a riot. In Supreme Court case Brandenburg vs Ohio, it was determined that freedom of speech wasn't protected in cases likely to lead to a riot.
As you can see, the principal had a moral obligation to ban American Flags on that day. You can also see that the kids freedom of expression(speech), wasn't violated.
I do not understand why we, Americans, should be obligated to listen to foreigners. They came to this country, they are the ones celebrating a Mexican based holiday in America, they are the ones disrupting the school. They should listen to us, not the other way around. If anything they should not be able to wear shirts with the Mexican flag, not us. But they are allowed to wear a Mexican flag t-shirt because that it their first amendment right. How is it that a student cannot wear a shirt with an American flag on a selected day when right outside the school there is a flag flying outside along with flags in every room.
Your conclusion is, in my opinion, completely wrong. How absurd it it to hear of banning American Flag t-shirts, IN AMERICA!!? It is downright disgusting. Not only that, but it without a doubt violates the first amendment. The school board along with the three judges who made the court decision have impeded the First Amendment. Just because someone doesn't like the message someone is saying does not mean you are allowed to take their rights away. The students simply were an American Flag shirt because they re proud of where they live. They did not start any fights or riots. Once again, it was the Mexicans. Simply, this was a very bad decision.
In some situations who's right and who's wrong doesn't matter. The principal doesn't have the time to analyze what who is right or wrong. He has to keep his students safe. In this situation it doesn't matter who's right. All that matters is him keeping the students safe.
Imagine working at a convenience store. A person comes in with a gun and demands all the money in the register. What do you do? Do you sit there and explain to him he is in the wrong.....
Of course not. You give him the money. When there is a threat of violence the rules change.
I agree that it is wrong, that those kids can't wear an American flag shirt, because of the threat of a riot. However, in this situation you have to pick the lesser of 2 evils.
Banning the American flag in that situation doesn't violate the first amendment. The Supreme Court has ruled in Brandenburg vs Ohio that in situations like the the one, the principal faced, that the first amendment doesn't protect those kids. The California school you're referring to was also ruled to have not violated the constitution in an appeals court.
Let's not forget there are other parties in this situation not involved, that could get hurt. I'll leave you with a famous quote I think is applicable to this situation.
"Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins"John B. Finch
I don't understand why you would say you also agree it is wrong for the school and judges to say they cannot wear it. You basically have just given up. You just admitted I am right.
You refer to anonymous parties possibly being hurt, but don't mention them. I would have liked further explanation of these "parties."
Another thing is that the quote you mentioned, it is completely irrelevant to a t-shirt.
Now, I'll leave you with a very famous quote by Edmund Burke. "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." If people do not stand up for what they believe in and give into society, especially something patriotic, then it becomes an absolute shame.
In conclusion, I have enjoyed this debate and am glad to have had it. I do know, however, that I will be wearing an American flag t-shirt on Cinco de Mayo my current, which is also my first, year of high school. Thank you.
You don't know which "Mexican" students, would be a threat to start a riot or do something that could turn into a riot. Now you'd be violating the rights of innocent Hispanic students, and doing so in an extremely racist way.
"I don't understand why you would say you also agree it is wrong for the school and judges to say they cannot wear it. You basically have just given up. You just admitted I am right."
No, I never said the school or judges acted wrong. I was stating that the situation was wrong. The gangs present in the school, the racial tension etc.
I wish those things didn't exist, so that the students would be free to wear their shirts.
"You refer to anonymous parties possibly being hurt, but don't mention them. I would have liked further explanation of these "parties.""
This is just common sense. A massive amount of people fighting would likely cause students trying to avoid the fight get hurt, administrators trying to break up the riot could be hurt and police responding to the situation could get hurt.
"Another thing is that the quote you mentioned, it is completely irrelevant to a t-shirt."
The point of the quote, was to show that your freedom shouldn't infringe on someone else's freedom. Wearing the t-shirt infringes on other kid's right to have a safe school environment.
"Now, I'll leave you with a very famous quote by Edmund Burke. "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." If people do not stand up for what they believe in and give into society, especially something patriotic, then it becomes an absolute shame."
This has nothing to do with good or evil. It was a safety concern.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro simply had the more solid arguments in the debate, and they were better supported. Con spoke from a position of emotional anger, as well as a bit of xenophobia or racial hatred (can't really tell which), but never impacted his statements. His best response comes from stating that the principle could have done something else, but Pro rightly points out that there's no way to do this effectively. Safety wins out over rights, Pro wins.
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