The Instigator
studs-r-us
Pro (for)
Losing
11 Points
The Contender
snelld7
Con (against)
Winning
14 Points

USC (Southern Cal) in the Pete Carroll Era has become the nation's premier college football program

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/9/2009 Category: Sports
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,725 times Debate No: 8129
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (4)

 

studs-r-us

Pro

pretty self-explanatory, in my opinion. The first debate I'm initiating, so I guess from what I've seen, I'll list some definitions.

http://dictionary.reference.com...

football - a game in which two opposing teams of 11 players each defend goals at opposite ends of a field having goal posts at each end, with points being scored chiefly by carrying the ball across the opponent's goal line and by place-kicking or drop-kicking the ball over the crossbar between the opponent's goal posts

premier - first in rank; chief; leading

wikipedia.org

Pete Carroll - Peter Clay Carroll (born September 15, 1951, in San Francisco, California) is an American football coach, former National Football League head coach, and the current head coach of the University of Southern California Trojans football team, having held that position since 2001.

Thanks in advance to whoever decides to accept this debate.

My first point:
snelld7 has forfeited his first round, and from comments seems to genuinely disagree with my contention. Yet he was unable to say anything worthwhile. nothing! It is not easy to find evidence to disprove the statement. ;P

With that, I renew that challenge and wish whoever accepts good luck!
snelld7

Con

Sorry about earlier, Springfield, Mo experienced some bad weather and my power went out!!

Now, in order to make a statement such as "USC (Southern Cal) in the Pete Carroll Era has become the nation's premier college football program" a few statements must be true.

It must be true that:

A) They are, presently, ranked number 1 (Meaning under his control, they've risen to number 1)

and

B) They are the best team of all time (Meaning Pete Carroll has carried them to new heights unestablished by anyone else aka He's created the best program of all time)
________________________________________________________________________________________________

A)They are, presently, ranked number 1 (Meaning under his control, they've risen to number 1)

~The only poll that would have USC ranked number 1, is the poll on their own school's site. According to the BCS standings (the most prestigious standings in all of college football) USC is number 3 and Florida is ranked as a decisive number 1. Not only are they number 1, but Florida recieved 48 of the 65 votes that are suppose to be distributed between 25 teams!! Ask yourselves, would a team that is suppose to be the nation's premier college football program, only recieve 1 out of 65 votes, while another school recieves 48? Of course not, this said you see that they are not premier "first in rank; chief; leading."

This disproves the resolution in the first aspect.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

B) They are the best team of all time (Meaning Pete Carroll has carried them to new heights unestablished by anyone else aka He's created the best program of all time)

In evaluating this, you must take a few things into consideration. These things are win percentage, national titles, and pro factory.

"Given that stipulation, I'll have to go with the program that actually IS the best all-time.

#1 in wins.
#1 in overall winning %.
#1 in conference titles.
11 total national titles.

If you had limited this to the modern era, you may have had a shot, but all-time the choice has to be the University of Michigan.

Michigan is the all-time leader in wins (872) and winning % (.740). Despite their recent troubles, the program has no equal in that regard.

They also have the most winning seasons and the most undefeated seasons in Division 1-A history."

http://www.fannation.com...

"So, not to leaving you hanging, here is the definitive list. Going back 140 years (through 2008), and using the NCAA as the source, here are the top 10 schools and the percentage of winning games:

1. Michigan 74.0%

2. Notre Dame 73.6%

3. Texas 72.0%

4. Oklahoma 71.4%

5. Ohio State 71.4%

6. Alabama 70.9%

7. Southern Cal 70.6%

8. Nebraska 70.3%

9. Tennessee 69.2%

10. Penn State 68.9%"
http://lifetussle.wordpress.com...

This is proof they don't have the best win %. Now lets move onto most national championships.

According to: http://en.wikipedia.org...

USC currently ranks 7th behind Princeton, Yale, Michigan, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, and Alabama.

This proves, yet another thing to be false, that USC doesn't have the most National Championships.

This said, lets move on to pro factory (the most amount of NFL players to come out of a school).

There are 2 lists under this search:

1) CBS Sportsline Alumni Tracker
http://www.sportsline.com...

Miami - 55
Georgia - 54
LSU - 50
Michigan - 50
Ohio State - 47
Florida - 43
USC - 42
FSU - 42

and

2)http://sports.espn.go.com...

Miami - 45

Georgia- 40 LSU- 40

FSU- 39 Michigan- 39

Ohio St-37 Tenn- 37

Texas - 35

USC - 33

Notre Dame - 32

Auburn, Cal, Florida, VT - 31

Both of these polls have a couple things in common, they both have Miami listed as the number 1 school, and USC listed around the bottom.
============================================================================
In conclusion, USC hasn't risen to be the "premier" college football team under Pete Carrolls controll because

A) They aren't "premier" (number 1) right now!
~ University of Florida is #1 under this criteria (ranked number 1 by all polls)

and

B) They aren't "premire" all-time (They haven't risen to the premier national college football of all time team under his control)!
~Michigan is #1 under this criteria (Best all-time win percentage/most amount of wins/Ranking 3rd on most amount of national titles/Ranking 3rd on most players in the NFL... they have the best average of all four categories.)
Debate Round No. 1
studs-r-us

Pro

Thank you snelld7, for the argument, and I'm sorry about the Springfield power outage.

As for the argument...
Where to begin, where to begin.

I'll start with your second contention/rebuttal, in which you claim USC is not the greatest college football program of all time.

"If you had limited this to the modern era, you may have had a shot, but all-time the choice has to be the University of Michigan."

This contention, I'm sorry to say, was a complete waste of your time. The statement that is under debate is "USC (Southern Cal) in the Pete Carroll Era has become the nation's premier college football program." I'd like to point out the words PETE CARROLL ERA. These words make it clear that I am only arguing that the USC football program is the top program in the nation SINCE PETE CARROLL'S start at USC.

I'm sorry that it seemed that I was claiming that USC was the best in history. For a side note, I consider them Top-5, along with Notre Dame (most national championships), Michigan (winningest program in history), Alabama (Coach Bear Bryant), Penn State (Joe Paterno and his legacy), although the last one is a bit questionable.

============================================================================

The second thing I will address is your claim that since USC is not ranked number 1 at this very moment, they are not the premier program in college football.

Although this argument may make sense at first, this feeling doesn't, and rightfully shouldn't last. I did not say that USC was the ONLY good team in the PC era, nor did I argue that USC was always going to be the best in the PC era. My only argument is that if you examine USC's track record and performance in the PC era, no program has matched USC's success over that era.

But giving another example may help the voters. The Los Angeles Lakers had a streak of 3 consecutive championships, from the 1999-2000 season to the 2001-2002 season, and were upset by a upstart Detroit Pistons team that kept their 4th straight championship from them. At that time, I may have contended that "In the Phil Jackson Era, the Lakers have become the premier team in the NBA". (He had started the first championship year). Would anyone argue that simply because Detroit had ONE good season and beat the Lakers ONCE, they were the premier team? Of course not! Anyone can see that through Phil Jackson's term of 4 years, he had made the Lakers the best team of that time period.

The argument may be made that the Lakers, and yes, also USC, was not perfect. This I accept wholeheartedly. Perfection is an arbitrary standard. But "premier" is really just a relative view. Through Pete Carroll's tenure at USC, no program has been better. After rebuttals of my opponent's claims, I must now provide the burden of proof, as I have made the claim.
=========================================================================
1) Pete Carroll has the best winning percentage
His record since arrival stands at 88–15, or a percentage of 85.4%. This percentage is the BEST among active coaches. If you remove his first year, a year in which most coaches adjust and prepare the program for the NEXT season's improvement, his record stands at 82-8, with an ASTRONOMICAL win percentage of 91.1%.

2) USC has set records through the PC era that show incredible dominance
10-win seasons seems to be the benchmark for many great coaches. Mark Richt, of Georgia, Jim Tressel, of Ohio State, and other great coaches have their accomplishments mentioned regularly, with their lists including # of 10-win seasons. Pete Carroll has set a new standard at USC, however. From 2002-2008, USC has had 7 straight ELEVEN win seasons. Although 1 more game may not seem like a big deal, most college football teams, USC included, play 12 games in the regular season, and 1 bowl/postseason game.
3 seasons with a final record of 11-2
3 seasons with a final record of 12-1
1 season with a final record of 13-0

They also hold an NCAA record of 63 straight 20-point games.
A record six BCS bowl victories
A record seven consecutive BCS bowl appearances

For those who might not follow college football, teams compete in 12 games, and if they win 6 or more, are invited to a bowl game. Since 1998, however, the top 10 teams are invited to more prestigious bowls, called the BCS bowls, in which they are pitted against each other. 1 of these bowls is the championship, and 4 other bowls form these top bowls. For USC to make 7 straight BCS appearances means that they have finished the year at least in the top-ten (or close, and also have the conference or league championship, guaranteeing a spot in the BCS bowls). Although this may not SEEM impressive, once you realize that this feat has been UNMATCHED by any other team, then you realize how hard it is. No one has come close to this streak.
Although Ohio State and Oklahoma have also been to 7 BCS bowls, their streaks reached only 4 and 3, respectively. They also had the benefit of 3 more years, 1998-2001, that were not counted in the Pete Carroll Era.

This doesn't even mention USC's PERFORMANCE in these bowls. Ohio State's record in the bowls is 4-3, and Oklahoma's is 2-5.
USC's is 6-1, in fact, if it were not for the heroics of a Vince Young, USC would have an impeccable and god-like perfect record in what is supposed to be a challenge against other evenly matched teams.

3) A national-record 33 consecutive weeks as AP's No. 1-ranked team.

This record needs its own heading to do it justice.

AP's No. 1 ranked team means that the Associated Press Poll of sportswriters, retired players, etc. has voted USC as the top team in the nation.

This may seem like a bunch of bigheads claiming unrightful power, but again, to those of you who don't follow college football, you may not know the significance of these polls.
Only 2 teams play off for the national championship. There is no playoff, like every other major sport. And since there is only 12 games, many teams will have identical records. So how do you decide which teams get to go to the national championship? Well, the polls do that. The AP poll, along with the BCS polls (a system of 3 polls) influence public perception and ACTUAL seedings of the teams.
That means that the ultimate authority on college football voted USC the top program for 33 weeks.
Less than a year? No. Although 33 weeks itself is a short time, in college football weeks, it is a long time.
Since the college football season has a 15 week regular season and a 1 week (poll-wise) postseason, that means that USC stood atop the rankings for OVER 2 straight seasons. So for 2 years, USC was not only the best, but also perfect, in the eyes of the AP poll.

Seven consecutive Associated Press Top-4 finishes also shows that USC has finished in the Top-4 7 straight years, with 2 championships.
1 AP championship (split)
1 BCS championship

============================================================================
A final note before the end of the post: All records are ALL TIME. If they are the best ALL TIME, they are surely, by transitive logic, the best of the Pete Carroll Era (in terms of those records).

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

==============================================================================

I look forward to my opponent's response, and I hope the voters are enjoying the debate so far! :]
snelld7

Con

>>>>>"This contention, I'm sorry to say, was a complete waste of your time. The statement that is under debate is "USC (Southern Cal) in the Pete Carroll Era has become the nation's premier college football program." I'd like to point out the words PETE CARROLL ERA. These words make it clear that I am only arguing that the USC football program is the top program in the nation SINCE PETE CARROLL'S start at USC."~You!

Now, lok at the resolution from my standpoint with this contention. The resolution is sayin that Pete Carroll has lead them to become the nation's premier college football program. For this to happen, he has to be as good or better than all others from all times. And obviously he hasn't done that. How can you be the nations premier college football program, without being the definition of premier?
============================================================================
Addressing attacks on my 1st contention

>>>>>"Although this argument may make sense at first, this feeling doesn't, and rightfully shouldn't last. I did not say that USC was the ONLY good team in the PC era, nor did I argue that USC was always going to be the best in the PC era. My only argument is that if you examine USC's track record and performance in the PC era, no program has matched USC's success over that era."~You!

No, don't go back on the resolution. It clearly states "USC (Southern Cal) in the Pete Carroll Era has become the nation's premier college football program!" It doesn't say that they've become one of the best [...] but that they're the best. In a sport where there is a National Championship games, there aren't any ties only winners and losers. And If you're not the number 1 team nor are you winning or at least in the National Championship, you are losing.
===========================================================================

>>>>"But giving another example may help the voters. The Los Angeles Lakers had a streak of 3 consecutive championships, from the 1999-2000 season to the 2001-2002 season, and were upset by a upstart Detroit Pistons team that kept their 4th straight championship from them. At that time, I may have contended that "In the Phil Jackson Era, the Lakers have become the premier team in the NBA". (He had started the first championship year). Would anyone argue that simply because Detroit had ONE good season and beat the Lakers ONCE, they were the premier team?"~You!

No, one would conclude that during the years of the seasons they won, they were the premier team. But the year they lost, they were not. Simply put. You have to beat the best to be the best, and the pistons beat the best and were rightfully crowned THE BEST.
============================================================================

I read you go on and on about USC's winning percentage not being matched by anyone else in college football today. However, you fail to mention that they're in a struggling conference and have lost 2 of the last 3 years to Oregon State in that conference. They can't even make it out of their own "struggling" conference! The SEC is undoubtedly the toughest conference in all of college football. Any refute on this is nieve and injudicious. Last time I checked, the Pete Carroll era isn't over. So lets review the winners of the National Champs of his era.

-2001 was Miami Florida.
-2002 was Ohio State
-2003 was LSU
-2004 was USC
-2005 was Texas
-2006 was Florida
-2007 was LSU
-2008 was Florida
-2009 looking like Florida again

With this, you see he was NOT premier (1st) in any of those years except 2004
So once again, How can someone be premier, when they don't fit the definition of the word?
If anything, Florida is dominaing his era (IN THE TOUGHEST CONFERENCE)
Debate Round No. 2
studs-r-us

Pro

My opponent attacks a straw man.
Once===
Now, lok [SIC] at the resolution from my standpoint with this contention. The resolution is sayin that Pete Carroll has lead them to become the nation's premier college football program. For this to happen, he has to be as good or better than all others from all times. And obviously he hasn't done that. How can you be the nations premier college football program, without being the definition of premier?
Twice====
No, don't go back on the resolution. It clearly states "USC (Southern Cal) in the Pete Carroll Era has become the nation's premier college football program!" It doesn't say that they've become one of the best [...] but that they're the best. In a sport where there is a National Championship games, there aren't any ties only winners and losers. And If you're not the number 1 team nor are you winning or at least in the National Championship, you are losing.
But also three times===
No, one would conclude that during the years of the seasons they won, they were the premier team. But the year they lost, they were not. Simply put. You have to beat the best to be the best, and the pistons beat the best and were rightfully crowned THE BEST.
=========
He repeatedly says (but won't admit) that the standard for his premier is perfection. It is impossible, or damn near impossible, for a team to win a championship every year, like my examples of USC and the Lakers. The teams are not PERFECT. But in the era described (4 years stretch for the Lakers, and Pete Carroll Era for USC) no other team has been better. Yes, they have been BEATEN. But the BODY OF WORK for the MULTIPLE YEARS by these teams has NOT been overcome.
For example:
4 year stretch for lakers
championships:
Lakers -3
Pistons-1

For USC
championships
LSU- 1 undisputed, 1 split
Florida-2 undisputed
USC-1 undisputed, 1 split
all other tied with 1

My opponent lists the years and participators in the National Championship Game. Not only is this a foolish, narrowminded way of looking, as this separates the years in an era which is NOT defined by a single year, but also fails to prove anything. Especially the point of 2009-Looking like Florida again.
=================
I read you go on and on about USC's winning percentage not being matched by anyone else in college football today. However, you fail to mention that they're in a struggling conference and have lost 2 of the last 3 years to Oregon State in that conference. They can't even make it out of their own "struggling" conference! The SEC is undoubtedly the toughest conference in all of college football. Any refute on this is nieve and injudicious.
=================
USC has this kind of schedule - 9 MANDATORY games within the PAC 10 league, and 3 OOC (out of conference) that they CHOOSE
Most other leagues have- 8 MANDATORY games within their league, and 4 OOC games of choice.

Many team's have Achilles' Heel. Maybe the coaching style of the underdog is special and effective against the team.
USC has had problems with Oregon State. (but, I might add, only when they go TO o-state)

Florida does have an Achilles' Heel. They cannot beat Auburn. Cannot beat them AT auburn, and cannot beat them AT home at the Florida Swamp. So what did they do? Simple. Because they only had to schedule 8 of the teams, they simply left Auburn off. Result: 1 of the 2 national championships

USC cannot do that. They were #1, and when they lost at Oregon State, they plummetted. Say they had not played vs. Oregon State. They didn't lose any of their other games, so they would have finished undefeated, and without a doubt ended up in the National Championship. (See where this is going?)
===================
Part 2 of rebuttal
Something about PAC 10 being a struggling conference, and SEC being the best.
Yes, the SEC is the best. blah blah blah. What has happened over the years is, the SEC has become glorified beyond what they deserve. YES, they ARE the best. But that's all they talk about.
b) Pac-10 is struggling.
hmm... really, now? snelld7 seems to have short-term memory. YES Pac10 had a HORRIBLE year. but the year before that, the Pac-10 was terrific. They had Oregon at #2, Cal at #2, Arizona State in the Top 10, and USC at #1 at different parts of the year. 4 teams in the Top Ten, out of a league of 10? Not struggling so much are we now? This means that USC played 3 Top 10 teams throughout the year, and still maintained their high level of play.
By the way, it might be interesting to see the SEC vs Pac-10 record since 2001
That means any team from the SEC playing any team from the Pac 10
Since 1998 is Pac-10 with 9 wins, and SEC with 6. Yes, this immortal vaunted conference has lost more than won against Pac 10. Any rebuttals to this would definitely include that Top teams from Pac 10 (USC) would beat up on bottom teams from SEC.
a) Florida gets wins off those bottom teams
b) Well if they are so perfect, their bottom teams should whip everyone too.
Even if this were true, that is not the case. Most recently UCLA (bottom team of Pac 10) has beated Tennessee (middle team of SEC).
Also, SEC teams are SCARED to play USC. USC has beated Auburn (when they were #6) AT Auburn, 23-0. They also beat Arkansas, another SEC team, 56-0 AT Arkansas. USC is not scared of playing anybody.
==================
Rebuttal about NFL players. Sorry, I forgot to respond in LAST post
======================
This one isn't even close. USC is the team with the best talent, and also the best NFL talent. They are routinely compared to NFL teams, with jokes and puns being made about USC going and taking over for the Oakland Raiders, or beating up on the Detroit Lions. Maybe an exaggeration, but players drafted doesn't lie.
Since Pete Carroll's induction as coach, he has had FOUR top 5 recruiting classes (from high school), and also the highest NFL output in the nation. NFL Scouts (who generally know what they are doing) have picked
USCPac-1011
Ohio StateBig Ten7
Oregon StatePac-107
South CarolinaSEC7
GeorgiaSEC6
LSUSEC6
in this past draft, and since Pete Carroll's arrival in 2001, 54 total NFL players drafted.
Since 2000, USC has 61 players, and Ohio State has 69, and Miami had 63 (Top 3)
But in the Pete Carroll Era (started at 2001, so first draft was 2002, so discounting the 2000 and 2001 drafts)
USC has 54
Miami has 51
Ohio State has 51
So USC has the most number of NFL players drafted.
========================
Heismans in PC era
Carson Palmer
Matt Leinart
Reggie Bush
have won this award designating them the top player in the nation. in 8 years, USC has had 3 of players of the year. No school even comes close
======================
Finally, ESPN.com, when ranking teams from 1997-2006 using writer votes and computer rankings, put USC at number one over that era. At that time, USC's streaks had been 5 straight 11 win seasons, and 5 straight BCS bowls, and 2(one undisputed, one split) national championships.
That means that Pete Carroll's FIVE years were good enough to not only CANCEL out 5 HORRIBLE YEARS by his predecessors, but also propel him OVER EVERY OTHER TEAM IN THE NATION. 2 years later, those streaks still stand.
====================
My last words will be used to show why Florida is the closest, but doesn't pass USC.
They have. 2 NCs in 3 years. But while USC cruised to 7 straight 11 win seasons, and top 4 finishes, for a record of 82-8, Florida's record is 8-5,8-5,7-5,9-3,13-1,9-4,13-1 for a final record of 67-24. They have had many good seasons, but that record is simply not indicative of the PREMIER team of the PETE CARROLL era (multiple years, not individual years, like my opponent seems to ignore.

Vote Pro! Thanks for reading through my debate! :]

http://sports.espn.go.com...
http://www.pro-football-reference.com... (replace SC w/ miami, OSU)
http://en.wikipedia.org...
snelld7

Con

I post my opponents statement as for the reason he loses this debate::

""PREMIER team of the PETE CARROLL era (multiple years, not individual years, like my opponent seems to ignore.)""~You!

He fails to realize that An era is made up of individual successful years! A statement like "multiple years, not individual years, like my opponent seems to ignore," is silly because individual years are how you make up multiple years.
Being that neither of us are going to fold on either side of the debate. Let's go over the main voting issue.

1) The fact that he feels USC does not have to be ranked #1 to be premier.

I understand that you're talking about a certain period of time. I also understand that you may not mean all-time within this certain period of time. However, I think you fail to realize that this "era' is still in session! They aren't ranked first this year, last year, the year before that, the year before that, OR the year before that! The team characterized as the number 1 ranked team in college football is the team who wins the national championship! Hands down that's how it goes. The only team with multiple uncontested national championships over this era is The University of Florida. So, how can you say they aren't premier, and a team with one national title and one shared national title is the best? You say they aren't because of record, but fail to realize USC is in a conference where they are the only perennial powerhouse. The Florida Gators are in a conference where all but 2 or 3 have a chance to go to the National Championship every year!

AGAIN, I'd like the audience to note, "How can something be premier, If it doesn't fit the definition?" Answer is, it can't be. I assume you didn't answer because you knew you wouldn't be allowed to say it and still be in this debate. If you aren't ranked number 1 at the end of the season in 6 of the 8 years out of the era, only have 1.5 out of the 8 championships (with another team having more than you and another being tied with you), and you can't make it out of a weak conference undefeated while other teams are doing it in the toughest conferences there are [....] How can you think you have the right to be crowned number 1? You can't feel that way, and even if you could, your injudicious imbecillic thoughts would be picked apart by the polling system. Which it has.

RESOLUTION NEGATED
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TheSkeptic 8 years ago
TheSkeptic
C: TIE, though at times PRO got a little riled up.
S&G: TIE
A: PRO. CON stumbles over the idea that to judge a team, in this case for sports, you need to take the collective results from it. Not simply picking out the matches they lost.
S: TIE. Both sides used plenty of adequate sources.
Posted by TheSkeptic 8 years ago
TheSkeptic
Hey you two, leave it in the debate section! Heheh.
Posted by snelld7 8 years ago
snelld7
If you think the Sec is les sthan the Pac-10.. you're insane
Posted by studs-r-us 8 years ago
studs-r-us
you've been caught up in the hoopla of the pac-10 being so bad. it had ONE down year last year.
next, usc consistently schedules top OOC games every year, none of the D1-AA schools that many schools schedule
Posted by snelld7 8 years ago
snelld7
>>>USC consistently has the hardest schedules in the country.

Woah.... ya right!
Posted by studs-r-us 8 years ago
studs-r-us
infrareded
When all the topics on debate.org are better than mine, then I'll concede that maybe this isn't meaningful. But it is definitely fun. And many of the debates are just as pointless.
In fact, it is pathetic that you pick on me, when i have JUST joined. I actually realize (after looking) that your record is pathetic, as is your view of college football. crackofdawn_Jr has it, with the terrible divisions. no need to say more. USC consistently has the hardest schedules in the country.

SuperPerfundo -
illegal collegiate compensations is a bit misleading
The alleged money was not from USC, but rather from an agent. USC has maintained that they have had nothing to do with the allegations, and unless the NCAA report proves otherwise, the only people saying this continually are haters :]
Posted by crackofdawn_Jr 8 years ago
crackofdawn_Jr
"Join a high school debating team, Studs. Learn about real debating and quit wasting time with these losers unless you have parental permission as required by the Terms of Service. Where's your value? Why don't colleges cancel classes and just have football?

Anyway even teams such as Ball State, Boise State and Utah have better records."

Umm, because Ball State, Boise State, and Utah are in terrible divisions.

And about the debate thing, coming from such a "prominent" debater as yourself, that hurts a lot. ;)

*Sarcasm*
Posted by SuperPerfundo 8 years ago
SuperPerfundo
Does premier status include numerous recruiting violations and illegal collegiate compensations for players? Maybe we should ask Reggie Bush......
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
Make voting period definite and I'll accept.
Posted by InfraRedEd 8 years ago
InfraRedEd
Join a high school debating team, Studs. Learn about real debating and quit wasting time with these losers unless you have parental permission as required by the Terms of Service. Where's your value? Why don't colleges cancel classes and just have football?

Anyway even teams such as Ball State, Boise State and Utah have better records.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Nails 7 years ago
Nails
studs-r-ussnelld7Tied
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Vote Placed by TheSkeptic 8 years ago
TheSkeptic
studs-r-ussnelld7Tied
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Vote Placed by studs-r-us 8 years ago
studs-r-us
studs-r-ussnelld7Tied
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Vote Placed by snelld7 8 years ago
snelld7
studs-r-ussnelld7Tied
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