The Instigator
Raccoon98
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
16kadams
Con (against)
Winning
14 Points

USSR in ww2 had better tanks than germany?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
16kadams
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/17/2015 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 656 times Debate No: 68476
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (0)
Votes (3)

 

Raccoon98

Pro

USSR tanks where made of inferior tech but still they where more effective than the german tanks they had more armor and better guns and still where a pain in the a*s of the german army to be beaten expecialy the KV tanks the only real thing they lacked where radios and a good crew.
16kadams

Con

PRO has the BOP and most prove that the USSR tanks are *always* superior to German tanks. To specifically cite one example, the T-34 was inferior to most German models used on the eastern front (http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com...).

PRO's case also falls apart when you note how German tanks were superior to USSR tanks in battle. In 1941, the Russians lost 20,000 tanks and the Germans only lost 2000 tanks. This gap never closed. In 1944, when the Germans were losing the war, the Soviets were still losing an excess amount of tanks: 23,000 to Germany's 9000 (http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com...).

Indeed, better is defined as:
higher in quality, more skillful
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

PRO concedes, "the only real thing they lacked where radios and a good crew", meaning they are less skillful. As noted above the USSR incurred excessive losses, indicating the German tanks has better skilled tank men. PRO must prove the entire definition, and I have refuted the second part. I have refuted the first part as I noted an exception. Vote CON.
Debate Round No. 1
Raccoon98

Pro

Yes i know germany had better crews but im talking about engenering not about who has the best tank who doesen't USSR could loose 2000 T-34's that they could produce more 3000 of them in days plus the T-34 was tanks was designed to be used in a single battle or maybe 2 if lucky and them the crew would go to another T-34, plus at teh beging of barbarossa German tankers would ofetenly need to flank and even sometimes swarm the russians of T-34's doe to it's slooped armor all arround the tank made the tank armor quick powerfull at the beging of war, the KV-1 tank was even harder some german tankers even reported that even after the KV tank was surrounded it still was dificult to penetrate it's armor due to the low quality of the german gun (Shot barrel 75mm used mostly to fight off inft and the short barrel 50mm wich was commonly used by the pz III) due to it's thick armor, and the russian models were defenetly more superior to the german ones the t-34 only had 45mm of armor but since it was slooped it would double the armor while the german models(Even the tiger) was only a box with turret only later models made in 1944-1945 were diferent like the Panther and Tiger II (King tiger) and oftenly the german airforce was called to deal with the russian tanks due to the low penetration capabilities of the german AT guns at teh beginging of barbarossa or the Usage of the flak 88 gun to kill russian tanks, and as i said before im not talkign about crew skill or who had the best tankers im talkign about tech like who inovated more or who had the best designes.
16kadams

Con

The definition of 'better' must include the skillfulness of the crew. Therefore, as my opponent concedes the Germans had better crews, that the German tanks were just as good--or better--than the tanks of the USSR.

The Panzer 4 could penetrate the T-34 armor at 3900 feet at any angle, and penetrate the T-34 armor at *most* angles at over 5000 feet (http://en.wikipedia.org...).

Essentially, my opponent has the BOP to prove that all of the USSR's tanks were superior to that of equivalent german designs. The main battle tanks--the Pz 4 and the T34--are the best for comparison, and arguable the Pz4 was superior. More interior space, better gun, better crews, and radios

Pro concedes pretty much and I have provided counter evidence. He also doesn't use punctuation. Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 2
Raccoon98

Pro

Raccoon98 forfeited this round.
16kadams

Con

Extend vote Con.
Debate Round No. 3
No comments have been posted on this debate.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Paleophyte 2 years ago
Paleophyte
Raccoon9816kadamsTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeits
Vote Placed by Contra 2 years ago
Contra
Raccoon9816kadamsTied
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Total points awarded:02 
Reasons for voting decision: I thought Pro's arguments with regards to sloped armor were valid. However, Pro both forfeited and his usage of language and grammar made his case difficult to comprehend.
Vote Placed by Blade-of-Truth 2 years ago
Blade-of-Truth
Raccoon9816kadamsTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct - Con. Pro forfeited the final round which is rarely acceptable conduct in any debate setting. S&G - Con. Pro had several punctuation and spelling errors throughout the debate whereas Con made no such errors. Arguments - Con. Con was able to show that the USSR did not have better tanks than Germany in WW2. This was done by comparing the amount of tank losses that each country racked up, and the tanks themselves (Panzer 4 v. T-34). Con showed how the Panzer has superior firepower capable of piercing the armor of a T-34 from 3,900 ft away. Pro additionally conceded that Germany had better crews with higher skills, and although this does not pertain to the resolution itself so his concession on this holds little weight. Due to Con overcoming each challenge presented by Pro, followed by Pro's forfeit of the final round which left Con standing unchallenged, Con wins arguments. Sources - Con. Pro failed to utilize any sources whatsoever. This is a clear and rare 7-point win for Con.