The Instigator
Logical-Master
Pro (for)
Winning
14 Points
The Contender
Yraelz
Con (against)
Losing
5 Points

UTW Exhibition Match

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/22/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,172 times Debate No: 10549
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (67)
Votes (4)

 

Logical-Master

Pro

It's go time.
=====================================================
In the LEFT CORNER:

Logical-Master's team:

Sora (Kingdom Hearts): http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com...
Darth Revan (Knights of the Old Republic): http://starwars.wikia.com...
Amazo ( DCAU Version): http://en.wikipedia.org...
Doomsday (Comic book version): http://en.wikipedia.org...
Batman (comic book version): http://en.wikipedia.org...

In the RIGHT CORNER

Yraelz's team:

Black Alice:
Emma Frost
Kurasaki Ichigo
Sephiroth
Sentry.

Lets get ready to rumble!
=====================================================

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Phase #1. Speed Blitzing Counters/ a billionth of a second into the battle |
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In previous debates, I've noticed that my opponent has heavily relied on his team's vast speed advantages (specifically from Sentry and Sephiroth. Thus, the first task in this battle is to insure that his team's speed doesn't work to his advantage.

COUNTER SEPHIROTH: As sephiroth begins his sweeping assault, Sora simultaneously meets his path and the two clash blades like equals. How is Sora able to do this you ask? Firstly, Sora has fought on par with Sephiroth before. In fact, he has even won. This is clearly indicated by the first video on the right. Even Sephy's fastest slash can easily be countered by Sora at the beginning of the battle. When added to the fact that Sora can teleport (via warp snipe) as well as the fact that he has been show to be deflecting lazers (which by definition move at the speed of light)coming at him from all sides, it's made rather clear that there's no way Sephiroth is going to successfully blitz anyone on my team.

COUNTER SENTRY: As Sentry begins to make his move, he has met by none other than the fearsome Doomsday (a rival on par with Superman). As my source indicates in the powers and abilities section, Doomsday matches Superman in both strength and speed.

Lets look at a good example of how fast Superman is:

Superman moves from the earth to an unspecified solar system in mere seconds:

http://img47.imageshack.us...
http://img47.imageshack.us...
http://img47.imageshack.us...

Superman moves fast enough to escape a DOUBLE black hole:

http://img367.imageshack.us...
http://img367.imageshack.us...
http://img367.imageshack.us...
http://img367.imageshack.us...
http://img367.imageshack.us...

Rebuilds metropolis in a second

http://img262.imageshack.us...

I challenge my opponent to offer evidence which indicates the Sentry can move faster. Otherwise, Doomsday could quite literally run circiles around him before he is even aware of it.

++++++++++++
Phase 2: Killing the psychics / a thousandth of a second into the battle

While utilizing force speed, Revan grabs Batman's motherbox and teleports himself, Amazo and Batman into a random warehouse. With the city being indestructable, no one should be able to get inside, upon Revan using the force to lock the door. Quickly, Revan then uses force sense and immediately locates Emma Frost. Keep in mind that force wielders can sense someone's else's presence across an entire galaxy, as shown in Revenge of the Sith when Sidious sensed that Anakin was in danger. Revan (a far more powerful force wielder) will instantly learn of Emma Frost's location and shall active force choke to deal with her from a distance. As we've seen in the film Empire Strikes Back, Darth Vader could force choke people without even being in the same room as them. He nearly needed to be aware of his victim's presence completely. The technique known as force sense would enable this. Afterwords, a quick force choke at superspeed would bring about the death of the young psychic before she could even become aware of the danger she was in. Revan could proceed to do the same to Black Alice (who, we are to understand, also has no way to defend herself from this level of assault).

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Phase 3: Dealing with the Shinigami/ one second has passed |
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

With Revan's force powers and heightened senses, he should be able to detect Ichigo, regardless of where he is located during the battle. Amazo quickly duplicates Revan's powers, activates force speed, grabs Batman's motherbox and boomtubes out of the impenetrable warehouse and to the locaton where Sora and Sephiroth are still doing battle. Amazo copies Sora and Sephiroth's powers, teleports to Doomsday and Sentry's location and copies their powers as well. As this in a very short amount of the time. The super power being then proceeds to quickly locate Ichigo slice into tiny pieces while dual wielding a copy of Sephiroth's matsumune and a copy of Sora's keyblade,but not before duplicating his powers.

++++++++++++++++++++++
Phase 4: Ending the battle |
++++++++++++++++++++++

With the powers of nearly every character in this matchup, Amazo proceeds to slay both Sentry in Sephiroth with relative ease, assuming Sora could not finish off Sephiroth (in spite of having single handedly beaten him before) and assuming Doomsday cannot finish off Sentry (in spite of being Superman's equal).

And that will do it for now!
Yraelz

Con

To begin I thank my opponent. To truly decide a victor we must first decide how powerful certain characters are. Thus my first arguments will be establishing power.

Establishment
=========

Sephiroth
+++++++
As previously noted by my sources in the last two rounds Sephiroth can travel the speed of light. Not only that but he can Teleport. More importantly, as noted by his final limit break, Sephiroth can make it from beyond Pluto to the earth in mere seconds. Considering light takes nearly 300 minutes to make it this same distance we can safely assume the Sephiroth is faster than light.

Further, while it is plausible that some time was cut out of his journey in order to spare the viewer, he still must have made it back to earth quickly. Cloud and company would not have sat around waiting for 6 hours (300 minutes) or longer. Thus I would suggest to the reader that Sephiroths only true weakness is his arrogance which often results in him toying with enemies instead of outright killing them. As I'm commanding him, this won't be a problem.

Sentry
+++++
As the SuperHuman Speed section of this article states: http://marvel.wikia.com...(Earth-616); Sentry can make it to the sun and back in a matter of moments. This takes light 16 minutes to do, thus he is faster than light. In fact the source goes on to point out that during interstellar travel is speed is several times the speed of light. The article, along with just about every article on Sentry, almost mention that he has power comparable to Superman (really not all that much of a feat).

Sora
++++
Sora is not as quick as light, my opponent bases this point on faulty assumptions. First, it should be noted that in the final battle where Sora dodges multiple "lasers" that those "lasers" literally sit still in a ring around Sora and Riku for an extended period of time. Beams of energy such as you might see being shot from a blaster pistol or on a "light"saber. This only proves that these "lasers" are in fact only condensed beams of energy. If they were lasers they would never sit still. Furthermore I'd point to the wiki page which states that the term LASER is usually used to refer to a beam of light, but not always. Compressions of energy are often misrepresented as lasers. My point is, a true laser could never sit still.

Furthermore, in his fight with Xigbar, Xibar's "lasers" curve downward. This is a property which only proper matter could display. This observation is strengthened by the fact that Xigbar must constantly reload and by the fact that the "lasers" explode when they hit the ground. Light doesn't explode when it hits the ground, condensed energy can (check lightening for example).

Next, Sora CANNOT beat Sephiroth. Watch the video my opponent has supplied. At the end of the battle Sephiroth admits that Sora is skilled. He then states that it appears only Cloud is strong enough to beat himself. After which point Cloud appears and Sephiroth (who apparently just got beat by Sora) fights cloud for awhile until they both disappear. Perhaps I just don't understand my opponents definition of defeat.... But furthermore, I would point out that Sora is traditionally beaten, to death, by Sephiroth a multiple of times before, occasionally by luck, being able to witness the scene in which Sephiroth says he can only be beaten by Cloud.

And finally. Sora can admittedly warp. But he can only do so all of about five feet with warp snipe. Otherwise he would have simply warped the twenty feet in order to fight Xigbar instead of warping the five feet to beat back the "lasers". Furthermore, if he could warp any distance, he would have used that as a primary transportation throughout the game. The fact is, when he warps he disappears for a moment and reappears a few feet away.

Revan
+++++
I've noticed my opponent has used Revan's abilities in a misleading manner in past debates. For instance, he used Thought Bomb against Mongoose, however, this move, like many force moves, only works against others of the force. This source, http://starwars.wikia.com..., points out that it doesn't work against normal foot soldiers. The same is true for force sense. Anakin can be sensed because he is so strong in the force.

Finally, Revan can only use force choke in close proximity. Otherwise you could have used it in the game to kill enemies in other rooms. Ultimately the claim that Revan can use all of Darth Vadars abilities because he is a more powerful Jedi is fallacious. It would be like me saying I'm a world class swimmer because I'm a better human than Michael Phelps (analogy, not necessarily fact).

++++++++
Doomsday
++++++++
He's as fast as superman. My opponents source shows superman escaping a black hole at 184,202 miles per second. Just under lightspeed.

And now, to the debate. Logical, I like your strategy but I hope you can defend it now that you've chosen it. It seems not using my characters to nearly their full ability, in the past, has caused you to direly underestimate them.
=====================

+++++++++++
Negative One Second
+++++++++++
Sentry's particles move a second ahead of the normal time line. He acts before any other character can. =)

Sentry fills New York with blinding light that makes it impossible to see. He bends the light around the spot where my team is. This does two things. First, it makes it so my opponents characters cannot find me, but secondarily Sentry can create solid light constructs. This means that the light is actually a solid force which immobilizes everybody. This is how Sentry was able to create the void, which he believed until recently, was something real and not a figment of his imagination.

Next, Sentry wipes the entirety of team Pro's mind. When the void almost destroyed earth the first time, Sentry used this power to destroy everyone's memory that he ever existed. He falsely assumed that it was their memories of him that created the void. This was so powerfuly done that not even his best friend, a genius, Reed Richards, could remember who he was upon returning.

++++++++++
Pico-Seconds
++++++++++
Sephiroth simply protects Black Alice.

Ichigo immediately enters soul form. This renders him completely invisible and undetectable by anyone who knows little about spiritual energy. As can be seen in the video I'm posting....

Ichigo quickly assumes Bankai and then dons his hollow mask. From here he rapidly increases his spiritual pressure. This slows everyone not accustomed to vast spiritual pressure down. This can be seen in the first minute of the second video I'm posting.

I guess I should also note that Ichigo can move faster than light. But we'll work on that later if it's argued against.

+++++++
A second
+++++++

Black Alice steals Sephiroth's powers, leaving him powerless. And Sentry stops the abnormal light. This means that it's Black Alice and Ichigo who meet Sora and Doomsday. I mean... if their mind wasn't wiped. Black Alice, absorbs Doomsday's powers and lets Sephiroth's go. She then takes Sora's powers, this leaves her with both of their powers; pitting a full powered Sentry, Black Alice, and Ichigo (who's invisible) against two people with no power. The remaining three characters wouldn't stand a chance against such speed. Additionally Black Alice can absorb Amazo's powers. However if Amazo attempts to absorb Sentry's he will simply overload as happened to the absorbing man.

Finally I should note that Batman's motherbox is used for interstellar travel. It has a speed rating of 5000 and is only used for transporting between galaxies. As pointed out by marvel it has a speed rating of 5000: http://dc.wikia.com.... Thus using it will immediately transport them all out of the galaxy.
Debate Round No. 1
Logical-Master

Pro

ESTABLISHMENT
======

Part 1: SEPHIROTH:

I still contend that Sora should be able to counter any assault Sephiroth makes. Incidentally, this is EVEN IF my opponent is correct regarding his rendering of Sora in his first round. That said, it has come to my attention that my opponent has greatly exaggerated the One Winged Angel.

A) Sephiroth's final limit break is not literal. First, I would ask that readers take a gander at my first video to the right to see Sephiroth's final limit break in action:

As my opponent himself states in the comment section, he has seen Sephiroth do this attack three times during an actual battle. However, if Sephiroth were to have destroyed the solar system, there is no way we should be seeing the solar system back in it's former condition directly afterwords. Furthermore, this source indicates that the attack deals 15/16 of each party members max HP: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com...

Given that the attack itself cannot KO anyone (regardless at what level they are at) and that we see the same animaton reused throughout the battle, it is rather clear that Sephiroth isn't literally moving across the solar system and destroying it. Rather, all of this is more likely his mastery over concocting illusions at work: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com...

B) Sephiroth's dexterity (speed) is officially listed here at 160: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com... .This is a speed which any member in the party can potentially outclass with enough leveling up. Since Cloud himself can do this, my opponent would have to agree that Cloud was as fast or faster than Sephiroth. In doing this though, my opponent is at a disadvantage (more on this later).

C) As for Sephiroth's arrogance excusing his inability to best Cloud and company, this would be the equivalent to an ant somehow besting a mountain lion given the scale of power my opponent claims Sephiroth is capable of. In short, it's pretty unlikely.

PART 2: SENTRY

Fine.

PART 3: SORA

Given space constraints, I'm going to concede to the evidence I have provided as not being sufficient to prove that Sora can function at light speed.

As far as beating Sephiroth goes: Sephiroth never states Cloud is stronger than Sora. He says only Cloud can eliminate him. In this game, Sephiroth is regarded as being the darkness of Cloud and that Cloud need to eliminate him with the light (sounds silly, but I don't write this stuff). We've actually seen Sora best Cloud and Squall at the same time (which we can see in the comment setion vid). Thus, Sora > Cloud > Sephy. Lastly,we're not talking about Sora at his weakest (when he usually loses to Sephy); Sora is at his best.

PART 4: REVAN

My opponent is being rather mischievous. He refers to a previous debate of mine in which he claims I mislead the audience with Revan's thought bomb, since the link he provides indicates that it only works on force wielders. He follows by pointing out that the same is true for the technique known as force sense. However, there are already two problems here.

1) In the previous debate, I devised a method at which a member of my team would become force sensitive, hence allowing the thought bomb to work.

2) My opponent provides no link regarding "force sense", which is what my actual argument in THIS DEBATE consist of. Do not be fooled by CON's attempts to deceive you! Here is the actual link regarding force sense: http://starwars.wikia.com...

Quote: "Jedi could sense the location of hidden beings or enemies from a distance, and through barriers, allowing them to find, engage or avoid a being."

As for force choke, we could very well apply my opponent's argument to many particular instances of the game. For example, why didn't Revan ever simply use the thought bomb technique to wipe out every force user in the vicinity? The answer is that the game would be too easy, hence the creators limit his intelligence to not having the creativity to use his powers in such a manner.

As for it being Darth Vader's ability, we must keep in mind that I'm in control of Revan and that I know that force choking can be done from a distance if the conditions I discussed were me. Hence, he'd be able to do it in spite of us only having seen Vader do this.

PART 5: Doomsday

What my opponent forgets to point out is that Superman is moving that fast WHILE being encumbered by two black holes once. We're talking about celestial forces which are supposed to be able to pull in any form of matter and energy. In other words, it'd be like seeing a car speed down the highway at 120 miles per hour in spite of hauling several aircraft carriers on top of it. Just imagine how fast it'd be capable of moving without such restrictions.

PART 6: Batman.

CON is mistaken. The source does not state ONLY for galactic transportion. It states what it's CAPABLE of doing (in other words, what it maxes out at). If it can go from one galaxy to another, there's no reason it should not be able to move a couple of miles.

RE: Negative one Second
=======

Immediately, I cannot help but point out that this is in clear violation of the rules. Both my opponent and I agreed to no preparation time. Preparation time is at any point before the battle begins. Negative one second is clearly an example of this. Either that or Senry is time traveling, which is also against the rules. That said, we've seen Superman move fast enough to reverse time in the first Superman film when he wanted to insure that Lois Lane wasn't killed. Since Doomsday is by all means his equal, he should be well capable of matching Sentry at the speed my opponent proposes even if such action were not against the rules. In essence, I'm merely using Doomsday (at this point in the battle) as Sentry repellent should he decide to attempt a blitz of any form.

Pico-seconds
==========

Sephiroth cannot protect Black Alice from force choke as force choking is a technique that targets one internally. Also, unless my opponent concedes to Cloud and Sora being this fast, Sephy won't be aware of anything at this point in the battle.

As for Ichigo immediately entering Soul form, he would still be in his human state at that point. Revan could just as easily force choke snipe him before going after Black Alice (since my opponent doesn't yet seem to be making use of the gal).

Even if Ichigo somehow succeeded, this wouldn't render him invisible and undetectable as force sense enables force wielders to detect all forms of life (as indicated on the page I linked to) and such a restriction only applies to Bleach universe. Ghost can and have been detected by normal human beings in Star Wars (Obi wan Kenobi, yoda, and Vader are all detected at the end of Return of the Jedi), DC (particular in the River of Styxx) and Marvel Comic books (in whatever the equivalent to the River of Styxx is for Norse god matters (there is a word better than "matters", but I cannot think of it at the moment

As for spiritual pressure, Tite Kubo (the author of Bleach) retconned the potency of this plot device quite some time ago as we see a human with hardly any spiritual energy standing around beings of mass spiritual pressure here (the guy in the bottom right panel): http://www.onemanga.com... (which takes place long after PRO's videos).

Also, I would like to see PRO's evidence that Ichigo can move faster than light.

A second
======

Black Alice is already killed by a force speed/force sensed force choking Revan, so this doesn't happen. Sentry is still having trouble with Doomsday.

Sora proceeds to beat the crap out of Sephiroth as he has done in the video. If he has trouble, he can at very least hold him off until Sentry is beaten in the manner I listed in R1. The remainder of the battle goes exactly as played out in R1
Yraelz

Con

Sephiroth:

It should first be noted that my opponent concedes to Sora being slower than the speed of light. Furthermore he forgets that Sephiroth grows in strength as time goes on. For instance, while he is always the same level as the player in FF7, he can easily be an underleveled Sora in Kingdom Hearts. Which means that we should probably look to the most recent Sephiroth in video games.

The game: Final Fantasy Dissidia http://en.wikipedia.org...

Sephiroth's description from the game manual: A true sword master who strikes at foes with attacks at light speed, to his opponents his sword is almost invisible. He has many attacks that work well, and any player should be able to find ones that they favor. http://www.atmaxplorer.com...

Inevitably this means yes, even Square Enix says that Sephiroth can move the speed of light.

Sora: The battle my opponent sites comes from the first Kingdom Hearts quite some time before the battle in KH2 between Sephiroth and Cloud. I would suggest the characters have grown, substantially, since then. Especially considering that this is a low level Colosseum match. But also, I think this fight contains the exact same problem as the last one my opponent cited. Neither cloud nor squall die. In fact they walk away from the fight unhurt once again. This doesn't count as beating. Fun sparring match.... maybe.

Finally, Sora can still lose to Sephiroth at level 99, the difference being, that when Sora loses he is just dead and you have to restart from the last save. Sephiroth never once loses like that. Probability has it that Sephiroth from KH2 wins Sora from KH2. That doesn't take into account Sephiroth's production into Dissidia.

Revan: My opponent is straw manning my argument here. I never say that Force bomb must be used by a force wielder. What I'm saying is that Force Bomb only works against others who are strong in the force. For instance, the link I provided, mentions a time when it was detonated on foot soldiers who had no force aptitude and nothing happened. My point is, that many force abilities can only be used against others of the force.

Furthermore I object to my opponents blatant misuse of Revan. His rational is that Revan had to be underpowered in the game to make it fun. I could say that about any of my characters. Sora can beat Sephiroth because having an unbeatable Sephy would be no fun. Thus Sephiroth is actually 100x more powerful than Sora.

My proposition is that characters can only use powers that they've clearly displayed or are documented. Since my opponent has no such evidence about Revan's ability to use force sense to find others nor about Revan's ability to use ranged force choke, my opponents contention that Revan can is simply speculation.

Also though, I would not that it takes a great deal of time to develop force abilities, and to specialize in certain branches of the force. Revan is superbly powerful at the force but this doesn't mean he has learned every single ability out there, quality over quantity. And since there is no source nor basis to say that Revan learned a long ranged force choke, there's no reason to consider this argument.

Finally, note my opponents source. The reason the force sense works is because, "A Jedi student would learn how the Force binds all living things together, and learns to recognize these bonds and how they interact." However this is New York City, not the star wars galaxy. The force is not used to bond things together, thus Revan has no force sense.

Doomsday:
=======
My opponent is wrong here. Superman is moving close to the speed of light inside of the black hole, however since he is already inside it has ceased to suck him in. Thus Superman's speed is relative to the black hole, it's not constraining him. He's gathering such immense speed so that he might attempt to break out of the black hole (at which point he would be inhibited by it). I would challenge my opponent to provide evidence that superman leaves the black hole at the speed of light.

Batman
=====
Wrong again! Both the Boom Tube, and Mother Box pages of DC Wiki only site these teleportations as happening between far off distant places. The fact that they transport so fast, speed rating of 5000, makes it impossible to travel short distances.

More importantly though, it should be noted on the Mother Box wiki page: http://dc.wikia.com..., that Mother Boxes are sentient life forms which can and do act on their own. In fact they even show emotions such as, "They provide their owner with unconditional love". This proves that the mother box is actually it's own character and is thus disqualified from the round.

Finally, a boom tube stays open for eight seconds as noted by: http://dc.wikia.com... Meaning Sephiroth can just jump through and kill Revan.

Negative One Second:
==============
Sentry's molecules moving a second ahead of the normal time line. This means that one second before the battle starts Sentry can already see and act a second after that (when the battle starts). Thus Sentry, before anyone else has started the battle, is already that one second ahead inside of the battle.

Doomsday can't fly. Thus he can't actually circle the outer atmosphere making time go backwards. Furthermore he's never exhibited this power, nor is time travel allowed in this game. Sentry never time travels, his molecules are always one second ahead of the normal time line.

Worst case scenario Sentry would just do the same thing a.s.a.p. Which means this would happen:

Pico Seconds
=========
Sentry still throws up the hard light constructs and wipes team con's mind...... My opponent never argues against this argument and in effect his characters are bound, unable to see, and have lost their minds. They don't know what they are doing anymore. In fact, he could use the hard light constructs to just crush them if he felt like it. The void killed over a million people and it was a hard light construct invented by Sentry.

Sephiroth, is still as fast or faster than light which allows him to react to guard Alice momentarily.

Revan can't react, force speed is a minimal speed boost. Read the wiki page on it.

And Ichigo is also faster than light. Check out the video I'm posting. At 4:50 through 5:10 Ichigo is moving so quickly that he can be seen in multiple places at once. This means that Ichigo is leaving point A and arriving at point B before light leaves point A. In effect we see Ichigo in two places at once because the light reflecting from him hits our eyes from two different places at the same time. It should be noted that Ichigo at some points can be seen in more than four places, thus he's moving fast enough to have light reflect off him simultaneously in four different places. Thus he's beating light by more than a factor of four.

Finally, my opponents plan to force choke Ichigo is severely flawed. Force choke doesn't stop the arms or brain from working. Meaning Ichigo will still just convert to soul form, even while being force choked (if Revan knew what he was doing).

Additionally on the Revan point, since I haven't yet used her, I'd argue that Emma Frost could fight Revan's long distance powers (if he could) with her psychic powers. She is as powerful as Xavier.

Even if Black Alice was force chocked it takes at least 10 seconds in the movie for this to kill anyone. This means that she can still absorb Sephiroths powers and shoot to Doomsday + Sora and absorb theirs. Also it means Revan can only even attempt to use this power once before the battle is over.

Yoda reveals himself to Luke, he is not force sensed. And Tite Kubo still allows captains to have vast spiritual pressure. Ichigo is stronger than a captain and will still be invisible.
Debate Round No. 2
Logical-Master

Pro

Logical-Master forfeited this round.
Yraelz

Con

Yraelz forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Logical-Master

Pro

RE: ESTABLISHMENT
==============

Part 1: SEPHIROTH:

First, it should be noted that I did NOT concede to Sora being slower than the speed of light. Read my wording carefully. I conceded that the previous evidence I offered was insufficient. However, I've contained maintain the stance that Sora is at least as fast as Sephiroth (who CON believes capable of moving at lightspeed). Furthermore, my opponent forgets that Sephiroth shows himself capable of using technques which the players in FF7 only see him using when they face him for the final time. The technique tiitled as "Heartless Angel" is an example of this.

As far as the description of Sephiroth in that game manual goes, it's quite clear that it's a hyper bole, or else each character in that game (especially Jecht and Cloud) in capable of countering and besting a foe who moves at lightspeed. Watch the first video to the right. By my opponent's argument, we'd have to agree that even Tidus can fight on par with Sephiroth.

The second video indicates how unimpressive Tidus' speed is and should be solid evidence that the statement made in the manual simply means that Sephiroth is pretty fast.

In regards to Sora's battle, the video in the comment section takes place during KH2, hence around the time of Sephiroth vs Cloud. Once again, keep in mind that Sora bested BOTH Cloud and Squall AT THE SAME TIME. Sephiroth can't beat Cloud alone, yet Sora can beat Cloud and someone who is just as powerful as him. As for Cloud and Squall not dying, one does not need to fight to the death to know who is superior. And given that characters in FF games can lose all of their HP only to be brought back at maximum health in an instant whether it be through an item or a spell, CON's point is further established as moot.

Finally, I agree Sora can lose to Sephiroth at level 99, but what my opponent is forgetting is that the story only continues if he wins (as in, we see the aftermath of the battle), hence indicating that the writers don't consider him losing as being possible. Sora can lose to anyone in the game, yet the story is presented as him having triumphed over all of his foes.

Part 2: Revan: I understand my opponent's point that some force abilities are only effective against other force wielders, but the fact of the matter is that the technique which I'm referring to is not one of them. As shown by the very source my opponent is going by, force sense can be used against anyone or thing.

As CON's objection to my rational, there is just one thing he is forgetting in regards to the difference between the idea of Revan being underpowered and the idea of Sephiroth being underpowered. My assertion has evidence whereas his does not. The technique known as the thought bomb is well documented as having been created and used by Revan, yet players aren't given the option of using it. On the other hand, there is never a part of the story where Sephiroth displays power which he conveniently is unable to rely on in battle.

In regards to only using abilities clearly displayed or documented, my evidence is Darth Vader using it as well as there being game limitations to Knights of the Old Republic in addition to the fact that the inner workings of the technique are so simple that I (being in control of Revan) can just instruct him to combine force sense with force choke. This is no different than my opponent telling Sephiroth not to be arrogant or the Sentry not too scared to use his full power.

Finally, my opponent attempts to make the argument that the force doesn't bond things together in New York City, hence Revan would be unable to use Force sense. However, when we break down what the force is, this problem isn't an issue. Lucas has long since gone about a more scientific approach to the "Force." The force is nothing more than the energy in the Universe (hence, it does bind all things together). Those who have enough midichilorian cells in their body can manipulate the energy that surrounds them. Pure and simple.

Part 3: Doomsday:

On the contrary, it is my opponent who is wrong. There are two black holes which are pulling at Superman. We know that they our pulling at him based on the way Superman is being drawn (like a tug-a-war game between two different dimensions, with superman being the rope): http://img367.imageshack.us...

Hence, given that it's clear that the black hole is constraining him, my opponent is incorrect and my point that he'd be much faster without the black holes slowing him down stands.

Part 4: Batman

Let us take it from a different approach by assuming CON is correct. If you'll refer to the link the contender was gracious enough to provide, you'll note that the motherbox has the ability to transfer energy. Logically, if enough energy were transferred out of the mother box, it's Warp Power status would decrease. Revan could use this to his advantage, lower the energy to a level where shorter distance teleporation can occur and portals don't stay open as long.

As for the mother box being it's own character, this couldn't be further from the truth at least in regards to this battle. The motherbox is NOT acting on it's own and is at best being used as a tool during this battle. To cite precedent of this being allowed, one need merely look back at Vash the Stampede in this tournnament as he was allowed to be considered street level provided he didn't use his angel arm. In addition, this argument would in essence eliminate Ichigo's sword from this battle since it too is a sentient being: http://en.wikipedia.org...

I would also like to add that Ichigo himself is two characters in one (The Hollow inside Ichigo). Hence, in accordance to CON's reasoning, Ichigo himself would get eliminated from the round as well.

RE: Negative One Second
=================

Before reading further, I'd like readers to take the time to carefully review CON's source regarding Sentry. You'll note that it states that he moves at speeds which excel light during INTERSTELLAR travel. In other words, he can fly to the sun in a couple of moments ONLY because he has 93 million straight miles to build up speed. On earth, he can at best move at the speed of sound. If you'll continue reading the comment section, you'll note that Sentry only matches the HUlk (who is quite slow) in speed and that the entire battle is rather easy for even ordinary humans to witness (while not being obstructed by lighting). This proves my assertion. Since there is nowhere near 93 million straight miles to work with in this battlefield, there is no way Sentry can build himself up to lightspeed without leaving the combat zone, hence he'll be vastly limited throughout the entire fight.

As for -1 second, it doesn't matter what Sentry is capable of. The fact of the matter is that he isn't allowed to do anything until the fight starts. If he cannot adhere to this, he is automatically disqualified from CON's roster.

PICO Seconds
============

Since Sentry is not quick enough to do anything at this point, Doomsday speed blitzes him. With physical strength that is great enough to out power two black holes, Doomsday punches Sentry hard enough to be send out of the confines of NYC, hence ejecting him out of the battle before he can do anything.

As for why I never argued against the light constructs argument, my position was always that he'd be too busy with Doomsday to mount such an assault on my entire team. Although the motherbox could be used to remove all of his energy.

As for the rest of the points in this round, I have come across brilliant evidence which puts it all to shame: http://img190.imageshack.us...
Yraelz

Con

Yraelz forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Logical-Master

Pro

Since I don't feel like saying much else, I'll just point out the fact my opponent's argument about Sentry's molecules being one second before everyone else cannot happen since some of my combatants can begin the battle before even the one second mark is reached.

With all the being said, you can pretty much consider my above round as being my final round. VOTE PRO!
Yraelz

Con

41 minutes left! Go!

Sephiroth
=======

The problem with my opponents arguments about Sephiroth is that he never even considers my argumentation about growth over time. "Furthermore he forgets that Sephiroth grows in strength as time goes on. For instance, while he is always the same level as the player in FF7, he can easily be an underleveled Sora in Kingdom Hearts. Which means that we should probably look to the most recent Sephiroth in video games."

Throughout the games Sephiroth has slowly become more powerful. The same is true of most video game characters. Thus my contention is that while Sephiroth may have been equal to Sora in kingdom hearts he has since progressed substantially. My opponent argues that Sephiroth can be beaten by Jecht and Tidus in Final Fantasy Dissidia thus it means that the description of Sephiroth is a hyperbole.

I think my opponent is using the basis of his argument to prove his argument on this point. In order to prove that Tidus is slow he points to Final Fantasy 10, a game before Final Fantasy Dissidia. Thus Tidus has changed from Final Fantasy 10 to Final Fantasy Dissidia. Meaning, if we were comparing Sephiroth from Dissidia to Tidus from Final Fantasy 10 then my opponent would have a valid point. As it stands though, we're comparing Sephiroth from Dissidia with Tidus from Dissidia. Square Enix says Sephiroth can move at the speed of light in Dissidia, thus Tidus can move to counter the speed of light in Dissidia, even if he couldn't in Final Fantasy 10. My point: Characters grow over time. My opponent's counter point to this contention: Not.

Revan
====
There is a difference between Revan and Sentry. Sentry has power which he often does not use. Meanwhile Revan has never been shown to use a long ranged force choke. The fact that he's gifted in the force DOES NOT make him adept at using every single force power ever. Yoda hasn't trained in many of the Sith powers. Revan hasn't bothered with ranged force choke.

Furthermore there is still no documented use of a Jedi using force sense on someone who was no of the force and who simultaneously they didn't actually know before hand. None of my team use the force, and Revan knows of no one on my team.

As far as midichlorian's go, here is the wiki definition: "Midi-chlorians (also spelled "midi-clorians" or "midichlorians") are a microorganism in the fictional Star Wars galaxy, first mentioned in Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace. They are microscopic life-forms that reside within the cells of all living things and communicate with the Force.[6]"

Which means they only exist in the star wars universe. Which means while the force might be of energy it doesn't mean that midichlorians control that same energy in the real universe, in New York city. Ultimately there is no scientific basis for Midichlorians ever working in New York City.

Doomsday
======
My opponent is fighting an uphill battle here. I have already established that Sentry can go faster than the speed of light. Logical is trying to establish that Doomsday can.

My opponent disproves his own point with this one. The blackholes are sucking superman in two opposite directions while he's remaining as the "rope" between them. The problem being that the black holes are pulling him up and down or left and right (depending on which picture you look at in the illustration my opponent offered). This means that neither black hole is actively stopping Superman's forward or backwards motion. If Sup tried to go up, down, left, or right then he'd be resisted, but he's trying to go forward.

For an analogy. If gravity suddenly increased on earth it would pull all baseballs to the ground quicker. However the speed of the ball in the horizontal direction would remain the same. For those in physics, the vertical force vector would change while the horizontal would remain the same. Superman can keep flying unimpeded straight or backwards.

Thus doomsday is not faster than light, is not faster than Sentry.

Batman
=====
Considering my opponent's new arguments the problem with Batman's motherbox is it's feasibility. Logical argues that they could just decrease the power a lot and it wouldn't shoot them as far. They haven't tested the motherbox in anything but interstellar travel. Not only might this not be a possibility period but furthermore they don't know how little energy. If they overshoot by just a bit then they're out of new york, or maybe they transport into an indestructible brick wall, bye bye team Pro.

Ultimately the probability of this strat working is so small that it should be disregard in a round of "which team would probably win".

As far as Ichigo goes, if you believe this argument it just means he loses his hollow form. But the post I gave showed him without his hollow form moving quicker than light. Thus Ichigo is fine with or without hollow form.

-1 Second
=======
Maybe I'm blind but I just don't see where it says Sentry can only travel so quickly in interstellar travel. Furthermore he's traveled quickly before, such as the time he flew around the world and back before his wife could notice.

As far as fighting the Hulk goes, Sentry was never attempting to dodge the Hulk's punches. At one point he even states that he was waiting for this moment, when the hulk punches him. In fact they barely move at all throughout the entire fight. Also on this point, I don't believe the hulk ever beats Sentry, he simply convinces Sentry to choose a better path.

As far as Sentry one second ahead goes. I suppose the judges can consider this argument. Worst case scenario says Sentry has to wait one second.

Pico Seconds
========
YEAH RIGHT! The proof for Doomsday being as quick as superman is one line that says Doomsday's speed is comparable. This is the same thing Sentry's wiki says about him in comparison to superman's powers. Worst case scenario Sentry is the same speed as doomsday. Too bad he's way more powerful, 1 million times the sun.

Furthermore even if Doomsday could punch him so hard to send him flying he'd just end up hitting an indestructible building, not leaving the city. This means the light constructs are the death of Logical's team because his team is bound by them immediately. Furthermore there is no reason the motherbox can absorb all of the light in the city. I propose it can't, this power isn't documented at all.

Revan is not faster than light.... The blasters shoot condensed energy, not beams of light. I've seen star wars civilians leap out of the way of blasters... -.-

It appears that Ichigo is literally in four different places meanwhile there is a ton of blurs behind him. I think this means that he is 4x the speed of light on top of the blurring speed.

Once again we have another power that no Jedi has ever demonstrated. A force choke blocks off the airway, it doesn't snap a neck. Neither Revan nor any Jedi has used this power to snap a neck. It doesn't exist, and Revan doesn't know how to use it.

Ultimately I think Sentry, and Black Alice Sephiroth or just too powerful. No one will be force chocked by the time the battle is over even if their airway is crushed. Thanks for the round!
Debate Round No. 5
67 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
Yraelz
I don't actually believe I had better spelling and grammar. In fact I enter each round with the knowledge that I am going to be typing through too fast to bother proofing (not that I'd want to proof if I did have the time). I just put it at a tie because I felt like equalizing our points.
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
Yraelz
I bet there are 8,000 grammar errors, sorry if that's true. Back to homework, bye bye!
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
Yraelz
Oh snap!
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Dude, your doing 21 hours this semester. Don't bother with this debate and get back to your studies! I'm even willing to call it a draw. You can use this comment as evidence
Posted by Crust89 7 years ago
Crust89
^.^ Nice.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
I would've posted "voters", but I know we're pretty much the only people who are reading this debate, so there's no point. :D
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
Yraelz
Sweet, meaning I'll have two rounds and some sweet evidence to respond to! Yeah!
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Alright, I'll post my final round tonight or tomorrow morning.
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
Yraelz
I have time to respond this weekend. I can't say as much about next school week.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Should I let the time run down to the last minute only to then respond or what?
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
Logical-MasterYraelzTied
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Vote Placed by DebatePro 6 years ago
DebatePro
Logical-MasterYraelzTied
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Vote Placed by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Logical-MasterYraelzTied
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Vote Placed by Yraelz 7 years ago
Yraelz
Logical-MasterYraelzTied
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