The Instigator
mongeese
Pro (for)
Winning
25 Points
The Contender
mongoose
Con (against)
Losing
20 Points

Ultimate Team War - Ender's Game 2

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/10/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,335 times Debate No: 10053
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (41)
Votes (10)

 

mongeese

Pro

This is Ultimate Team War - Ender's Game. Each debater must assemble a team of five characters, and the teams will then fight to the death(ish). Since we cannot have an actual real-life battle, each debater will explain why their team is superior during this debate.

DEFINITIONS
Team leader: One of the debaters here, i.e. me or mongeese.
Team member: One of the five chosen warriors.
Team Pro: My team.
Team Con: My opponent's team.

RULES
1. Battles take place in the Battle Room of Ender's Game. The room is 100m by 20m by 20m. A portal is located on each 20 by 20 wall, 5m by 5m. Each team has its own portal. The Battle Room is not lit, and there is no gravity. The Battle Room contains air, same in composition as that of Earth. Along the walls, 1-foot handlebars are located 3 m away from each other. The Battle Room and all handlebars are indestructible.
2. All team members must enter their respective portal within five minutes of the beginning of the battle. Preparation takes place in a 40m by 40m by 40m room lit with white light and no resources. The only exit from this room allowed is the portal.
3. Once a team member enters the portal, that team member may not exit the Battle Room.
4. Team members in a preparation room may not be attacked by the opposing team, and may not attack the opposing team.
5. All team members must be street level - their abilities must be on par with somewhat human level, like Batman or Spiderman, not Superman. If you are unsure of what constitutes a street level character, just ask.
6. Every team member must be either real or, if fictional, verifiably existent. No characters may be made up for the purpose of this debate.
7. In the case of a fictional character, the team member's abilities must be according to a specific canon chosen by the team leader.
8. Every character has only the equipment that they generally have in the specified canon. Any support characters used by the team member as if they were equipment are allowed as long as that character is not suddenly above street level.
9. Team members are absolutely loyal to the team leader, unless subjected to some form of mind control by the opposing team. All team members are still subjected to their own emotions, however.
10. The team leader may not directly participate in the competition, but may only facilitate. The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team.
11. Neither team can have a member in common. If one team leader chooses a team member, the other team cannot have that person.
12. A team wins when all members of an opposing team are dead or unconscious. Characters who cannot be dead or unconscious are not allowed.
13. The winning team automatically receives Arguments and Sources. Conduct, in addition to regular things, goes to the person who follows the rules most effectively.

Round 1: Rule specifications; PRO unveils first three team members, CON unveils all five team members.

Round 2: PRO unveils his final two team members and explains why his team is better. CON also begins his arguments.

Round 3, 4, 5: Arguments and rebuttals. CON may not present any new arguments during round 5, since PRO has no chance to rebut them.

Team Member 1: Paper Mario [1]

Paper Mario is essentialy Mario, except he's flat. He has extreme jumping skills, and the ability to flip into the mysterious (for him) third dimensions. He is armed with the various Pixls [2] and, in zero-gravity, Squirps [3]. His attack is 99 and his HP is 999. He has a variety of items to assist him in battle [4].

Team Member 2: Shuckle [5]

Shuckle is a Lv100 Bug/Rock type Pok�mon. It has ridiculously high Defense and Special Defense. It's attacks are Acupressure, a move that randomly increases the Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense, Speed, Evasiveness, or Accuracy of either Shuckle or an ally, Gastro Acid, a move that negates the target's ability, Helping Hand, a move that increases the power of an ally's attack, and Toxic, a move that poisons the target, making it take damage over time. It holds a Leftovers item, allowing it to regenerate health over time. Its ability is Sturdy, preventing one-hit KOs from working. Its stats are 244 HP, 56 A, 474 D, 56 SA, 580 SD, and 46 S.

Team Member 3: Slaking [6]

Shuckle is a Lv100 Normal type Pok�mon. It has very high HP and Attack. It's attacks are Slack Off, a move that heals 1/2 of Slaking's total HP, Ice Punch, a punch that can freeze the target, Gunk Shot, a blast of poison, and Faint Attack, an unfailing Dark-type attack with low power. It holds a Shell Bell item, allowing it to regenerate health by attacking others. Its ability is Truant, which causes Slaking to loaf around occassionaly. Its stats are 441 HP, 460 A, 236 D, 203 SA, 239 SD, and 229 S.

I will post my other two team members and begin my arguments in round 2, after my opponent posts his or her team members.

Oh, and thanks to MTGandP for coming up with the entire concept of Ultimate Team War!

1. http://www.mariowiki.com...
2. http://www.mariowiki.com...
3. http://www.mariowiki.com...
4. http://papermario.wikia.com...
5. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
6. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
mongoose

Con

Team Member 1: Wes [1]
Wes has a hovering motorcycle, a Snag Machine [2] , Umbreon (LV.26, Bite, Secret Power, Taunt, Snatch) , Espeon (LV.25, Return, Confusion, Reflect, Helping Hand), and 999 of every item possible, including Master Ball. He also has explosives. The Snag Machine lets him capture Pokemon even if they belong to other people.

Team Member 2: Alakazam [3]
Alakazam is a Lv. 100 Psychic-type Pokemon. Its attacks are Psychic, Gravity, Protect, and Teleport. Its ability is Inner Focus, and its item is Focus Sash. Its nature is Modest. Its stats are 252 HP, 122 Attack, 126 Defense, 405 Special Attack, 206 Special Defense, and 339 Speed.

Team Member 3: Moltres [4]
Moltres is a Lv. 100 Fire/Flying-type Pokemon. Its attacks are Heat Wave, Solarbeam, Sunny Day, and Double Team. Its ability is Pressure, and its item is Life Orb. Its nature is Modest. Its stats are 322 HP, 212 Attack, 216 Defense, 383 Special Attack, 206 Special Defense, and 279 Speed.

Team Member 4: Machamp [5]
Machamp is a Lv. 100 Fighting-type Pokemon. Its attacks are Dynamic Punch, Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Bulk Up. Its ability is No Guard, and its item is Focus Sash. Its nature is Adamant. Its stats are 384 HP, 394 Attack, 196 Defense, 149 Special Attack, 207 Special Defense, and 146 Speed.

Team Member 5: Dragonite [6]
Dragonite is a Lv. 100 Dragon/Flying-type Pokemon. Its attacks are Dragon Claw, Waterfall, Aerial Ace, and Dragon Dance. Its ability is Inner Focus, and its item is Metronome. Its nature is Adamant. Its stats are 324 HP, 403 Attack, 226 Defense, 212 Special Attack, 236 Special Defense, and 259 Speed.

[1] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
[2] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
[3] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...(Pok%C3%A9mon)
[4] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...(Pok%C3%A9mon)
[5] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...(Pok%C3%A9mon)
[6] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...(Pok%C3%A9mon)
Debate Round No. 1
mongeese

Pro

Thank you for posting your team. Now, to choose my last two team members:

Team Member 4: Aerodactyl [1]

Aerodactly is a Lv100 Rock/Flying type Pok�mon. It has very high Attack and Speed. It's attacks are Ancientpower, a powerful Rock-type attack that may increase the user's stats, Sky Attack, a powerful burst of wind that requires charging, Ice Fang, a crunching bite of ice that may freeze the target, and Supersonic, an ear-splitting emission that confuses the target. It holds a Power Herb item, allowing it to use Sky Attack once without Charging. Its ability is Pressure, requiring extra use of energy to attack it. Its stats are 302 HP, 339 A, 166 D, 140 SA, 186 SD, and 359 S.

Team Member 5: Lucas [2]

Lucas is a Pok�mon Trainer from the Sinnoh region. His bag is full of 999 of every item he can possibly carry, or 1 of Key Items. He is 4'7" and 83.8 lbs. Because all of his Pok�mon are at Lv. 100, he may not bring them to the battle.

Now, first things first. I would like to disagree with my opponent's interpretation of Team Member 1-, Wes. My opponent states that he has his two starting Pok�mon, Espeon and Umbreon, which I agree with. As assisting characters, they do not make Wes go beyond street-level. However, Wes cannot have 999 of every item. For Wes to advance far enough to get 999 of every item, he must first win a few battles. These battles would give Umbreon and Espeon enough EXP to reach higher levels, contradicting what my opponent says. My opponent's interpretation is impossible. Wes has his Espeon and Umbreon, but he has no items. Additionally, hovering motorcycles don't have wheels.

Now, first, my Preparation Room Plan (note that this plan is subject to change in future rounds):

Lucas captures Shuckle, Slaking, and Aerodactyl in Luxury Balls, then lets them out.

Shuckle uses Gastro Acid on Slaking, getting rid of its Truant ability. Lucas uses the Bulk Up TM on Slaking in exchange for Gunk Shot.

Shuckle increases its stats through Acupressure. Slaking increases its stats using Bulk Up. Aerodactyl increases its stats through Ancientpower. Lucas provides Ethers to avoid running out of PP. After Shuckle is done increasing its own stats, it increases those of Paper Mario. After Slaking is done Bulking Up, Lucas uses X Accuracy, X Speed, and X Special until its stats are maxed out, then some EV Berries to max out its Happiness.

Just before five minutes are up, Lucas uses a Stone Edge TM on Aerodactyl in exchange for Ancientpower, a Flash TM on Shuckle in exchange for Gastro Acid, and a Return TM on Slaking in exchange for Bulk Up. Paper Mario uses a Block Block to make himself temporarily invincible. All of Team PRO then exits the portal at the last second.

Upon entry into the Battle Room:

Paper Mario uses a Sleepy Sheep immediately. Wes, Alakazam, Moltres, Machamp, and Dragonite all lack any resistence to Sleepy Sheep, having the Status Condition Sleep themselves, and fall asleep.

Aerodactyl uses Sky Attack on Machamp. According to Psypoke's Damage Calculator [3], even if Machamp's Defense is increased by 6 stages, as I presume it would, the minimum damage would be 524. Due to Machamp's Focus Sash, it would still have 1 HP left.

Slaking uses Feint Attack on Alakazam. According to Psypoke's Damage Calculator, the attack would do at least 316 damage. The annoying Focus Sash leaves it with 1 HP.

Shuckle uses Flash on Dragonite, lowering its Accuraccy.

All of Team CON is still asleep. Should any of them wake up, Paper Mario uses another Sleepy Sheep.

Paper Mario uses Shooting Star, damaging all of Team CON. Alakazam and Machamp are both Knocked Out.

Aerodactyl uses Stone Edge on Moltres, doing at least 683 damage, even with maxed-out stats. Moltres is Knocked Out.

Slaking uses Ice Punch on Dragonite, doing at least 328 damage, Knocking it Out.

Wes is still asleep. Should he wake up, Paper Mario uses another Sleepy Sheep.

Aerodactyl and Slaking combine Return and Ice Fang against Wes. He is ultimately slaughtered, or at the very least knocked unconscious.

Team PRO reigns victorious!

With that, I'll leave my opponent the floor.

1. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...(Pok%C3%A9mon)
2. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
3. http://www.psypokes.com...
mongoose

Con

Firstly, I am going to argue that Wes can have the two starting Pokemon. There are numerous ways for this to work. They could be different Espeon and Umbreon. However, I think it is fair to give him his two starters and the 999 of each item. His motorcycle is hovering. He has his items. Now to continue.

I have numerous plans, each of which can result in victory.

=======================
1. Operation Sun
=======================

Alakazam uses Teleport to warp the entire Battle Room and its contents into the center of the sun. This kills everybody except Moltres, who is healed by lava. Thus, Team CON wins. This also works if Alakazam uses Gravity to make the Battle Room fall into the sun due to its newly intensified gravity.

=======================
2. Operation Abandon
=======================

Alakazam uses Teleport to warp the Battle Room elsewhere, along with Team Con. He leaves Team Pro behind. They leave the Preparation Room, and are thus DQ'd.

=======================
3. Operation Deprivation
=======================

This one's really cool. First, Espeon uses Reflect to separate Moltres from the rest of Team Con, with Moltres being on the side with the portal. This is an airtight seal. Moltres uses Sunny Day. Then, as Espeon uses Helping Hand, Moltres uses Heat Wave on the Battle Room. This lights the entire thing on fire. All of the oxygen is rapidly used up. All of Team Con needs oxygen. They are deprived, and die.

=======================
4. Operation Block
=======================

Espeon uses Reflect to block Team Pro from being able to go through the portal. They can't get through. They lose after five minutes.

=======================
5. Operation Snag
=======================

Wes uses his Master Balls to capture most of Team Pro. From here, victory is simple.

=======================
6. Operation If-Nothing-Else-Works
=======================

Umbreon uses Taunt on the opposing team. This is not an "attack" in the usual sense of the word. This prevents them from using their stat-boosting moves. Dragonite uses Dragon Dance. Alakazam uses Gravity to make Team Con's gate truly down. This makes it very hard for them to get out, if its not impossible. Moltres uses Double Team. Machamp uses Bulk Up. Wes uses X everything on everybody, to maximize stats. Machamp removes his Power-Save Belt. This greatly increases his strength, to nearly unstoppable. They enter the fight.

Paper Mario tries to use Sleepy Sheep. However, the herd of sheep can't manage to enter the Battle Room, as it is indestructable. They just crash into the side and do nothing. The item calls them from wherever, but it doesn't guarentee them entering. If that doesn't work, Umbreon uses Snatch to steal and use the Sleep Sheep against Team Con.

From the point on, Espeon uses Helping Hand.

Alakazam uses Psychic to kill Lucas, by crushing his brain. He doesn't stand a chance. This takes almost no time.

Aerodactyl tries to use Sky Attack on Machamp. However, the intensified gravity makes this almost impossible, and causes Aerodactyl to fly really slowly, as most of its energy is used to remain upright. Now, Machamp can throw 1,000 punches in two seconds, with the Power-Save Belt. That's one punch every .002 seconds. When Aerodactyl is within range, Machamp unleashes a fury of destruction with Dynamic Punch, KOing it instantly.

Slaking tries to use Feint Attack on Alakazam. Alakazam's IQ is 5000. He easily dodges by Teleporting when its just about to hit. Remember, the accuracy is based on the video game's restrictions on ability to dodge.

Shuckle uses Flash on Dragonite. Dragonite uses Waterfall to ultimately destroy it.

Paper Mario uses Shooting Star! The stars patter the roof of the Battle Room, unable to enter. Nothing happens! Moltres uses Heat Wave to burn Paper Mario to a crisp.

Aerodactyl is already Knocked Out.

Machamp uses Dynamic Punch to destroy Slaking, and confuse it if it somehow lives. It now can't comprehend anything. Moltres uses Solar Beam. Dragonite uses Dragon Claw. Alakazam uses Psychic.

My opponent must refute every strategy.
Debate Round No. 2
mongeese

Pro

First, I would like to point out that should I refute most of my opponent's plans, my plan from Round 2 remains.

1. Wes

My opponent's source for Wes (the R1 Video) clearly shows Wes' Espeon and Umbreon to be his starters, when his bag was empty. They are obviously not different Espeon and Umbreon, or else the source would be wrong. Wes does not have his items.

2. Teleport/Gravity

My opponent has numerous plans based around Alakazam's Teleport. However, there is no indication anywhere of Alakazam's ability to teleport an entire structure anywhere. Additionally, Alakazam cannot know the location of the sun relative to the Battle Room, so Teleport and Gravity would not work here, and there is no indication of selective teleportation of ignoring Team PRO while teleporting Team CON. Even if the Battle Room were relocated to the sun, it would not be destroyed, and it wouldn't change a thing. My opponent's plans are entirely speculation.
As for Gravity, it is clearly stated that the move only "intensifies" gravity. [1] As there is no gravity in the Battle Room, Gravity has no effect.

3. Deprivation/Block

This is rather simple to refute. As Moltres appears in front of the portal, Aerodactyl simply uses Stone Edge to knock it out, preventing Heat Waver from being used. Even if Heat Wave worked, it would not burn up the oxygen in the Preparation Room, and even if Team PRO was forced out of the Preparation Room, Pok�mon and humans in the Pok�mon games do not require oxygen, as evidenced by the move Dive. Finally, Reflect can be easily destroyed if Lucas uses TM Brick Break to replace Slaking's Bulk Up.

4. Snagging

It is doubtful if Wes would be able to throw a Master Ball 100 meters with accuracy. In Colosseum, he's hardly throwing the ball 10 meters. Wes would have to get very close to successfully snag, at which point, he could be destroyed by a Squirps attack or intercepted by a Sleepy Sheep.

5. Taunt

Taunt is still an attack, regardless of connotation. Additionally, if Team PRO isn't even aware of the Taunt, as Umbreon can't even make itself visible or audible to the hard-working Team PRO, it couldn't have any effect. Finally, Taunt can only target one team member at a time, if at all.

6. Power-Save Belt

It is clearly mentioned in Machoke's Pok�Dex entries that it requires the belt to be able to control its motions [2]. It is quite likely that upon removing the belt, Machoke's moves go flying all over the place with no accuracy whatsoever, and probably harms its trainer, its allies, and even itself. Additionally, Machoke's unrestrained power is described as "unstoppable," not "nearly unstoppable," violating Machamp's street-level-ness. Therefore, Machamp must keep its belt on to be a legal team member.

7. Sleepy Sheep

The Sleepy Sheep could go right through the Battle Room's walls without actually damaging it. In the games, if one were to look at the walls after using Sleepy Sheep in a building, one would find no evidence of any breakthrough, suggesting an ability to go through walls by the Sleepy Sheep. Or, the Sleepy Sheep magically appear at the edge and trample through. Either way, there is no crashing.
Additionally, Snatch only copies stat boosters [3]. It does not copy status effect attacks like Spore and Supersonic. Therefore, it logically follows that Snatch would not work on Sleepy Sheep. My opponent is being too lazy to read the effects of the attacks he wishes to lose.

8. Brain Crushing

It is unlikely that Alakazam can crush Lucas' brain. If a Lv. 100 Mewtwo were to use Psychic on a Lv. 1 Machop, it would not be killed, but merely knocked unconscious. Furthermore, Lucas cannot be targeted. He is a Trainer, and Pok�mon can only attack humans who don't actually have any fight-worthy Pok�mon on them.

9. Dynamic Punch

My opponent wishes for Machamp to unleash a flurry of Dynamic Punches. However, nowhere in Colosseum or any other video game is Machamp shown to pull off a flurry of punches. It should seem obvious that when Machamp decides to unleash a flurry of punches, he cannot put in the full force that he puts into a single Dynamic Punch. Therefore, the flurry of weak punches would not KO Aerodactyl. Plus, Sky Attack would kill Machamp first.

10. Faint Attack

My opponent wishes for Alakazam to dodge the can't-miss Faint Attack by using Teleport. This is clearly impossible. The ability to dodge is still evident in the game through Evasiveness and Accuracy stats. Faint Attack ignores both of these, giving it its high status as a can't-miss attack. It can't miss, plain and simple. If Alakazam uses Teleport, he soon discovers Slaking right at that location that he teleported to.

11. Shuckle vs. Dragonite

According to the Damage Calculator, Waterfall would deal 177 damage at the maximum. Shuckle can then use Toxic on Dragonite. After that, Lucas stalls with Hyper Potions until Dragonite faints from poison.

12. Shooting Star

The same thing here as for Sleepy Sheep. Even underground, the stars appear with no damage done to the ceiling.

In conclusion, my opponent cannot stop the Sleepy Sheep from putting his entire team to sleep, and therefore stands no chance.

Good luck.

1. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
2. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...(Pok%C3%A9mon)#Pok.C3.A9dex_entries
3. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
mongoose

Con

First, I would like to point out that should I refute most of my opponent's plans, my plan from Round 2 remains.

1. Wes

My source was to show that Wes had explosives. If my opponent insists that the current idea is impossible, then Espeon and Umbreon are at level 50 instead. How's that?

2. Teleport/Gravity

A low-leveled Togepi has managed to teleport many people along with itself the first time it used Teleport. A Lv.100 Alakazam, with an IQ of 5000, would be able to teleport the entire thing easily. Its high IQ in addition to its psychic abilities would let him find the location of the sun with ease. It also wouldn't be difficult for him to not teleport Team Pro.

There is still gravity, its just really, really small. This gravity, when intensified by Gravity, can become very restrictive and force Team Pro to stay on the ground.

3. Deprivation/Block

My opponent is making assumptions. Moltres never has to leave the Preparation Room. He can use Heat Wave on the air, not Team Pro. The oxygen in Team Pro's preparation room would floar into the Battle Room to be used up, depriving Team Pro of oxygen, and suffocating them. They only don't need oxygen in the video game universe, not real life.

4. Snagging

In that case, Machamp throws the Master Balls instead, with 100% accuracy and amazing speed!

5. Taunt

Ah, then in that case throwing Master Balls wouldn't be an attack. Umbreon uses Snatch at this time instead.

6. Power-Save Belt

If Machamp can't remove his belt, then Paper Mario can't use his Block Block. They both create "unstoppableness."

7. Sleepy Sheep

The only reason that Sleepy Sheep does as my opponent describes in Super Paper Mario is because it is a largely 2D world, where the Sleepy Sheep can simply exist in a separate 3D dimension and not interfere with the terrain. Because reality is 3D, the Sleep Sheep are stopped and can't put Team Con to sleep.

8. Brain Crushing

My opponent doesn't seem to realize the difference between the game and reality. In reality, there is nothing stopping Alakazam from crushing Lucas' brain. Thus, Alakazam crushes Lucas' brain.

9. Dynamic Punch

Aerodactyl can't use Sky Attack if he is restricted to the ground by Gravity. Also, Machamp would then be able to use a single Dynamic Punch, after being reduced to 1 HP by any attack used by Aerodactyl, which would definately KO Aerodactyl, knocking his head clean off.

10. Faint Attack

My opponent seems to imply that Slaking can Teleport. Teleport is a move that can be used to flee from battle. This would let Alakazam flee from the Faint Attack, without being chased. Remember, Faint Attack does not work on Flying Pokemon. The same would apply to teleport.
Debate Round No. 3
mongeese

Pro

1. Wes

Well, the source also showed Wes to have the Umbreon and Espeon that you mentioned. If the two Pok�mon are at Lv. 50, that would put them together at par with a Lv. 100, so the assisting characters would make Wes more powerful than street level. So, no.

2. Teleport/Gravity

My opponent chooses to cite the anime uses of Teleport [1]. It is quite clear that Alakazam have used Teleport before in the anime; however, none of them teleported those around it as well. That was only Togepi. Additionally, there is still nothing to indicate anybody being able to Teleport an entire structure, or for any great distances. Alakazam is stuck in the Preparation Room, and there is no data for him to use to locate the sun, and even then, the Battle Room would be in the sun, and the fight would continue. Ignoring Team PRO would still be impossible, as we have no indication of such ability, and Alakazam can't even ascertain Team PRO's exact whereabouts.
"There is still gravity, its just really, really small."
Rule 1: "The Battle Room is not lit, and there is no gravity."
Rules precede speculation. Besides, even if there was gravity, it wouldn't be intensified to what it gets to on Earth. The gravity probably wouldn't even reach Earth's normal gravity, or even an asteroid's.

3. Deprivation/Block

In that case, Lucas will just stop it ahead of time. He uses TM Reflect on Shuckle to replace Gastro Acid, and Shuckle uses Reflect to block the wall. In this case, my opponent's team would be using up oxygen at a faster rate, as Moltres would run out extremely quickly, having just deprived itself and the entire Battle Room of oxygen. This would leave the entire Battle Room with very little oxygen after five minutes. Paper Mario has all the oxygen he'll ever need in his Space Helmet. In fact, Paper Mario could quite simply use to hide from all attacks, and nobody would know where he is. Everybody else would run out of oxygen, leaving Team PRO as the winner.

4. Snagging

If Machamp is throwing the Master Balls, then they are no longer Snag Balls, and as Lucas already captured Team PRO's Pok�mon, it would do no good. Additionally, Paper Mario could snipe any Snag Balls in the air with Squirps. Also, remember that Wes has no Snag Balls.

5. Taunt

Master Balls are still an attack in the sense of this battle, as it is an attempt to lock up members of Team PRO in orbs.
As for Snatch, it requires a target, and as Umbreon cannot even see Team PRO all the way across the Battle Room, it would not succeed.

6. Power-Save Belt

Block Block is quite temporary. Machamp's "unstoppableness" is not.

7. Sleepy Sheep/Shooting Star

In Super Paper Mario, every single world is actually 3D, not 2D. The terrain is not interfered with because clearly, the Sleepy Sheep go right through the terrain. In any case, there is no evidence of the Sleepy Sheep damaging anything to reach the room that Paper Mario is in. Same goes for Shooting Star. However, if one doubts the power of Shooting Star, Paper Mario could use Fire Burst [2] or a Catch Card SP [3] on anything surviving only through Focus Sash. And Paper Mario wants a Machamp card!

http://pokemoncardslink.narod.ru...

8. Brain Crushing

The brain crush would only make him unconscious, in which case, Paper Mario uses a Life Shroom to revive him whenever necessary.

9. Dynamic Punch

There is no gravity, so Gravity has no effect, and even if it did, Sky Attack is still usable during Gravity. After Aerodactyl uses Sky Attack, it is immediately followed up by Paper Mario's Shooting Star, as Paper Mario has no time restraints whatsoever. He could go through all of his items in a second if he wanted to. Therefore, Focus Sash is useless. It is also doubtful whether or not Dynamic Punch could actually Knock Out Aerodactyl in one hit.

10. Faint Attack

If Alakazam chooses to Teleport, then he cannot crush Lucas' head. Slaking can simply keep Alakazam on the run until everybody else is KO'd.

In conclusion, my opponent's attacks for the first five minutes are futile, and Paper Mario simply puts Team CON to sleep with Sleepy Sheep. Even if this does not work, Wes has no Snag Balls, and even if he did, Squirps would snipe them all. Gravity has no effect. Machamp goes down with a Sky Attack and a Shooting Star/Fire Burst/Catch Card SP. Moltres goes down with a Stone Edge. Dragonite goes down with an Ice Fang/Helping Hand or an Ice Punch. Wes goes down with Shooting Star, Ice Fang, Squirps, or basically anything else. Alakazam flees for a long time until either it's out of oxygen or it runs out of PP, with Lucas constantly replenishing Faint Attack with Elixirs. Aerodactyl is actually faster than Alakazam, so TM Aerial Ace would kill it in a few hits, easy.

Team CON's plans don't work. Team PRO reigns victorious.

1. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...(move)#In_the_anime
2. http://www.mariowiki.com...
3. http://www.mariowiki.com...
mongoose

Con

1. Wes

My opponent will have you believe that two Lv. 50 Pokemon are equal to 1 Lv. 100 Pokemon. This is not the case. A single Lv. 100 Pokemon is much better than 2 individual Lv. 50 Pokemon. My opponent knows this. This means he gets the Espeon and the Umbreon.

2. Teleport/Gravity

Alakazam simply didn't want to teleport more things in the instaces in the Anime. For one thing, Togepit isn't even a Psychic type, and is low-leveled, and has low base stats, and has low IQ. Alakazam is a Psychic type, Lv. 100, with very high Special Attack, and and IQ of 5000. He would easily be able to distinguish where the sun is with his Psychic powers. For leaving Team Pro behind, he could just warp Team Con along with thier Preparation Room, and the Battle Room, leaving Team Pro's preparation room to float in space. If the room comes along as well, Team Pro is left in space, and get DQ'd. If the fight is in the sun, then the enormous heat would kill everybody inside besides Moltres. The Battle Room is not heat proof.

You've never once combatted the idea of using Gravity to pull the Battle Room into the sun.

3. Deprivation/Block

Ha ha, good luck with that. The time it takes to use a TM is very long. By that time, the fire will have already taken most of Team Pro's oxygen. Then when everything fails, Team Pro suffocates.

4. Snagging

Why would they no longer be Snag Balls? They still would be. Machamp could do this as soon as he enters the Battle Room. Squirps is not skilled enough to snipe a Master Ball going at 200+ MPH. It's also a curve ball. Wes does have Snag Balls.

5. Taunt

Snatch would work very well. Umbreon, as a Dark type, has very good night vision, and would be able to see Team Pro.

6. Power-Save Belt

How many items does Paper Mario have? You seen to act as though he has an unlimited supply. Please indicate exactly what items he has.

7. Sleepy Sheep/Shooting Star

While not flipped, the worlds are 2D. When flipped, they become 3D. This is why Mario can walk from block to block even though there should be a pit between them. The Sleepy Sheep go around everything. They can't do that here. It takes time for Paper Mario to use each item. During that time, Moltres burns him to a crisp.

http://pokemoncardslink.narod.ru...

8. Brain Crushing

If your brain is crushed, you die. You don't just become unconcious. Life Shroom wouldn't work. How many Life Shroom's does he have?

9. Dynamic Punch

I think we already determined that Shooting Star doesn't work. Paper Mario doesn't have time restraints in his universe and his universe only. He would take a long time to use all of his items, which you still never mentioned in full. At the minimum, Dynamic Punch does 385 damage, more than enough to KO Aerodactyl. That's not even including a removal of Flying resistance to Fighting. Because there is no gravity, there is no advantage to be flying, and Dynamic Punch would lose no power when going into the air.

10. Faint Attack

Alakzam can crush Lucas' brain in less than a second, and Teleport at the same time. He's that skilled. Remember, turns are a formality.

In conclusion, Team Pro dies in the sun

OR

Team Pro dies in space

OR

Team Pro suffocates due to fire stealing oxygen

OR

Wes and Machamp Snag all three of the opposing Pokemon. They then go on a barrage of destruction, and Team Pro has no chance.

OR

Machamp destroys Aerodactyl with a single punch, and is fully restored by Max Potion. Aerodactyl has no more head. Lucas' brain is crushed. Paper Mario is fried. Slaking misses with Faint Attack. Machamp Dynamic Punches Slaking, dealing a minimum of 544 damage, and causing massive internal bleeding. Shuckle is then attacked by everybody, and stands no feasible chance, getting hit by Waterfall, Heat Wave, Psychic, and Stone Edge, all at the same time.

Team Con wins!
Debate Round No. 4
mongeese

Pro

1. Wes

My opponent's statement is unfounded. Two Lv. 50 Pok�mon can stand up to a Lv. 100 Pok�mon. Additionally, this would require my opponent to edit his team member, which is not allowed.

2. Teleport/Gravity

My opponent simply relies on Alakazam having Psychic powers to let it do amazing feats never seen before in Pok�mon. With no concrete evidence, but only pure speculation, his case has no weight. There is no way to tell where the sun is from the Battle Room. As I have already pointed out, there is no gravity, not even minute traces, so the sun does not even exist in the universe of this battle. The Battle Room and the Preparation Rooms are all that exist. Teleporting all that exists would be a tremendous feat that a Pok�mon simply can't handle, or else it would be above street-level abilities.

As for Gravity, as I've already said, the attack itself is useless, as there is no gravity.

3. Deprivation/Block

My opponent calls the length of time required to use a TM "long." However, it would work faster than it would take for all of the oxygen to escape the Preparation Room. Additionally, my opponent has no comment on Paper Mario's stall trick, as Paper Mario requires no oxygen outside of the unlimited supply in his helmet. If he uses Slim, he cannot be hit by attacks, and merely stalls until the rest of Team PRO and all of Team CON run out of oxygen. AKA, victory for Team PRO. (Uncontested.)

4. Snagging

Wes does not have his Snag Balls. My opponent pulls the statistic of 200+ MPH out of a hat. By unleashing a steady stream of attacks, Squirps can snipe pretty much anything.

5. Taunt

My opponent cites Umbreon's night vision. However, there are also the questions of distance and wall. Being able to distinguish anything beyond 100 meters would be a feat that an Umbreon probably can't do, and Team PRO could hide behind a wall. Remember, the portal does not take up the entire wall of the Preparation Room.

6. Paper Mario's Items

Paper Mario has one Fire Burst, one Catch Card SP, three Sleepy Sheep, one Shooting Star, two Revive Shrooms, and two Block Blocks.

7. Sleepy Sheep/Shooting Star

However, if Mario flips, then uses Sleepy Sheep, there is still no visible damage. There is never any visible damage. The Sheep obviously go through the wall. It takes no time for items to be used. Everything pauses when the item is taken out, and everything remains paused until the item's effect has been resolved. Moltres has no time to respond.

8. Brain Crushing

See the Machop example.

9. Dynamic Punch

Shooting Star does work, as it goes THROUGH the wall. Paper Mario's items always stop time upon use. It's part of the item. He is perfectly able to string items together. There is no indication that this power only rests in the Paper Mario universe at all.

My opponent still insists on Dynamic Punch working. However, Aerodactyl uses Sky Attack to almost KO Machamp, and Paper Mario either KOs it with Fire Burst or captures it with a Catch Card SP, a plan that my opponent has no response to.

10. Faint Attack

It clearly takes time to Teleport and use Psychic, as indicated in the game itself. If Alakazam ever pauses in its Teleporting to use Psychic on Lucas, it will be quite quickly slaughtered by Faint Attack. Turns are a formality, but the time to use the move is still there.

In conclusion:

There is no way for the sun to be involved in this battle at all.

Alakazam cannot have the power necessary to teleport the entire Battle Room while ignoring Team PRO.

Team CON needs oxygen even more badly than Team PRO, as Paper Mario needs no outside source of oxygen.

Paper Mario can stall Team CON by using Slim until Team CON runs out of oxygen.

Wes has no Snag Balls.

Squirps can snipe any Snag Balls thrown at Team PRO.

All of Team CON is asleep because of Sleepy Sheep, making victory a piece of cake.

Wes is easily incapacitated by Fire Burst or Shooting Star, or anything else. (Uncontested.)

Machamp can never get a chance to KO Aerodactyl, as a combination of Sky Attack and Fire Burst/Catch Card SP incapacitates it instantly. (This point was never contested.)

Paper Mario is temporarily invincible due to Block Block, and therefore, his uses of Fire Burst/Catch Card SP/whatever aren't stopped.

Lucas is saved from unconsciousness by a Life Shroom.

If Alakazam chooses to attack Lucas, he must be hit by Slaking's Faint Attack, which would KO it, as Fire Broil has already damaged it. Otherwise, he cannot attack Lucas.

Dragonite is easily destroyed by Ice Punch.

Moltres is easily destroyed by Stone Edge.

Nobody on Team CON is left standing.

Team PRO wins!

Thanks for this great debate.

Vote Team PRO!
mongoose

Con

1. Wes

My opponent doesn't seem to realize the effect of the difference in level. A LV. 100 KO's a LV. 50 in one hit, easy. My opponent has had to edit his team member, Paper Mario, because his first thing wasn't specific enough. This means that he would qualify as having no items.

2. Teleport/Gravity

We've never seen a Lv. 100 in the anime either. We've never seen Faint Attack as my opponent describes it. It is obvious that a Lv. 100 Alakazam could teleport the battle room. My opponent denies the existence of the sun. This is rediculous, as the sun does exist, and there is no reason to believe it doesn't. Technically, the Battle Room has its own minute traces of gravity, so the Battle Room can't exist. Now what? Clearly, the sun exists. Alakazam has an IQ of 5000. He would be able to use his psychic powers to find out where the sun is. My opponent then says that this would make Alakazam above street level. Then wouldn't Slaking become above street level if his ability Truant is removed? This argument means nothing.

I have conceded Gravity doing nothing.

3. Deprivation/Block

It takes a long time to search through the entire bag of TM's for a single Reflect TM. After it is finally found, after maybe thirty seconds, Lucas puts it on Shuckle's head and waits for it to work. And waits. And waits. You know why? SHUCKLE CAN'T LEARN REFLECT! Good job. My opponent then says that Paper Mario uses Slim. This would be permanent invinsibility, which my opponent has claimed to be above street level. Thus, it wouldn't work. Paper Mario would burn to a crisp once he is forced out of the Battle Room. Moltres is constantly healed by the fire. Alakazam can use protect. Reflect could be moved to force the fire back, giving Team Con room in the Battle Room. My opponent's point relies on breaking his own rules.

4. Snagging

If MLB pitchers can throw at 100+ MPH, then how fast would Machamp be able to throw it at full power? Wes does have Snag Balls. I have already argued this point. Squips can't unleash rapid fire without chocolate, which he doesn't have. The Master Balls would work, and Team Pro would then easily be defeated (my opponent has never denied that he would lose without his Pokemon.)

5. Taunt

That works.

6. Paper Mario's Items

Earlier, you said that Paper Mario had a Life Shroom. Now you don't. Clearly, you contradicted yourself. This is against the rules.

7. Sleepy Sheep/Shooting Star

If Mario flips, then uses an item, he will revert back to 2D. My opponent's point holds no weight. Everything does not pause. When Mr. L uses an item, things do not pause. They just pause if they don't try to move. While the item is over Paper Mario's head, it can be destroyed. Moltres burns it to a crisp.

8. Brain Crushing

That only happens in the video game. You just don't get it. If Alakazam uses his Psychic powers to crush Lucas' brain, his brain is crushed. He dies. End of story.

9. Dynamic Punch

As I have shown, Shooting Star goes AROUND the wall. Because the Battle Room's walls are 3D together, they block the Shooting Stars. My opponent claims that this is "part of the item." Then why doesn't time pause when Mr. L uses an item? Because it's not.

When Aerodactyl is within range to Sky Attack, Machamp uses Dynamic Punch at the same time. There is no time for Paper Mario to sneak in his item. Aerodactyl is already dead. If Machamp is KO'd, he gets Max Revived.

So Paper Mario has Machamp spinning in a Catch Card trap. Wes throws a Master Ball and captures Machamp. The Catch Card fails. Wes releases Machamp, after using a Max Potion.

10. Faint Attack

Slaking needs time to get from one side of the room to the other. Every time he misses, he crashes into the invincible wall. During the time available, while Slaking is going the opposite direction, Alakazam crushes Lucas' brain. He dies.

In conclusion:

My opponent has no remaining arguments to the deprivation strategy, so it is an instant win. He also only argues that Alakazam can't teleport the entire Battle Room, which I have shown he could. Paper Mario needs oxygen, especially when his helmet is removed. Slim is not allowed.

Wes can snag Team Pro. Squirps can't stop this. The Sleepy Sheep is burned to a crisp. Wes dodges these things on his hovering motorcycle. Paper Mario's items are not invincible, so they can be destroyed during the second that he holds them above his head. Lucas is DEAD. Alakazam is on the opposite side of the room from Slaking, and thus has time to use Psychic. Dragonite can also defeat Alakazam with Waterfall. Aerodactyl is decapitated. Paper Mario is burned to a crisp. Shuckle is destroyed by everything else.

Team CON wins!
Debate Round No. 5
41 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mongoose 7 years ago
mongoose
I doubt that she read it.
Posted by Kefka 7 years ago
Kefka
You shame the greatness of the Ender series by naming your "bout" in its honor.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
I never knew that theLwerd read Ultimate Team War debates.
Posted by mongoose 7 years ago
mongoose
Then I showed your attack to be flawed AGAIN!
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
Yeah, but I showed your direct attack (it was the sheep-wall thing, wasn't it?) to be flawed.
Posted by mongoose 7 years ago
mongoose
I directly attacked it many times.
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
Maikuru
C: Tie
S/G: Tie
A: Pro - Pro presented a single strategy that was never directly attacked. Con presented multiple scenarios, but none really got off the ground and many simply weren't feasible. It's unfortunate, as Con had arguably the stronger team.
S: Pro
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
Maikuru
I'll vote on this thing once I have some extra time. You guys did the last few rounds faster than I expected.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
Could've, should've, didn't.

I would like to remind all voters that the Sources vote goes to the winner of Arguments.
Posted by mongoose 7 years ago
mongoose
"He's immune to all of the attack you had mentioned up until that point."

You could have mentioned that too.
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Danielle
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