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Ultimate Team War - Ender's Game 3

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/16/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,952 times Debate No: 10120
Debate Rounds (5)
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This is Ultimate Team War - Ender's Game. Each debater must assemble a team of five characters, and the teams will then fight to the death(ish). Since we cannot have an actual real-life battle, each debater will explain why their team is superior during this debate.

Team leader: One of the debaters here, i.e. me or mongeese.
Team member: One of the five chosen warriors.
Team Pro: My team.
Team Con: My opponent's team.

1. Battles take place in the Battle Room of Ender's Game. The room is 100m by 20m by 20m. A portal is located on each 20 by 20 wall, 5m by 5m. Each team has its own portal. The Battle Room is not lit, and there is no gravity. The Battle Room contains air, same in composition as that of Earth. Along the walls, 1-foot handlebars are located 3 m away from each other. The Battle Room and all handlebars are indestructible. The temperature of the Battle Room is 25 degrees Celcius. The Battle Room and the Preparation Rooms may not be transported anywhere, and nothing may be transported out of the Battle Room or Preparation Rooms, with the exception of initial entrance into the Battle Room from the Preparation Room.
2. All team members must enter their respective portal within five minutes of the beginning of the battle. Preparation takes place in a 40m by 40m by 40m room lit with white light and no resources. The only exit from this room allowed is the portal.
3. Once a team member enters the portal, that team member may not exit the Battle Room.
4. Team members in a preparation room may not be attacked by the opposing team, and may not attack the opposing team. By "attack," I mean that neither team may disrupt the other team in any way as long as either team is in the Preparation Room.
5. All team members must be street level - their abilities must be on par with somewhat human level, like Batman or Spiderman, not Superman. If you are unsure of what constitutes a street level character, just ask.
6. Every team member must be either real or, if fictional, verifiably existent. No characters may be made up for the purpose of this debate.
7. In the case of a fictional character, the team member's abilities must be according to a specific canon chosen by the team leader.
8. Every character has only the equipment that they generally have in the specified canon. Any support characters used by the team member as if they were equipment are allowed as long as that character is not suddenly above street level.
9. Team members are absolutely loyal to the team leader, unless subjected to some form of mind control by the opposing team. All team members are still subjected to their own emotions, however.
10. The team leader may not directly participate in the competition, but may only facilitate. The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team.
11. Neither team can have a member in common. If one team leader chooses a team member, the other team cannot have that person.
12. A team wins when all members of an opposing team are dead or unconscious. Characters who cannot be dead or unconscious are not allowed.
13. The winning team automatically receives Arguments and Sources. Conduct, in addition to regular things, goes to the person who follows the rules most effectively.
14. Nothing outside of the Battle Room and Preparation Rooms influence the debate in any way. It might be empty space outside the Battle Room. It might be solid wall. It might be made of swiss cheese. It is not allowed to matter.

Round 1: Rule specifications; PRO unveils first three team members, CON unveils all five team members.

Round 2: PRO unveils his final two team members and explains why his team is better. CON also begins his arguments.

Round 3, 4, 5: Arguments and rebuttals. CON may not present any new arguments during round 5, since PRO has no chance to rebut them.

Team Member 1: Lucas [1]

Lucas is a Pokemon Trainer from the Sinnoh region. He is the Sinnoh Champion, and a victor of the Sinnoh Battle Frontier. He has a completed PokeDex, and has defeated the Elite Four more times than he cares to count. To this battle, he brings his badges[2], his PokeDex [3], his Poketch[4], and a bag filled with as many of every item as it can possibly carry.

Team Member 2: Link, Hero of Twilight [5]

Link is a swordsman of 17, and the bearer of the Triforce of Courage. He has the power to transform into a wolf at will. He is assisted by Midna [6], who can do various things such as extend energy fields. Note that she does not have the Fused Shadows, as this would put Link above street-level. Link has a wide assortment of weapons at his disposal.

Team Member 3: Alakazam [7]

Alakazam is a Lv. 100 Psychic-type Pok�mon. Its attacks are Teleport, Signal Beam, Future Sight, and Magic Coat. It holds a Focus Sash. It has incredible psychic ability and a high Special Attack. Its ability is Synchronize. It's Special Attack and Speed are maxed out in EVs. It has 31 IVs in every stat. It has a Modest nature.

I will post my other two team members and begin my arguments in Round 2, after my opponent posts his or her team members.

Oh, and thanks to MTGandP for coming up with the entire concept of Ultimate Team War!



My characters are as follows:

Three Characters from the SSB canon

Fox McCloud
Falco Lombardi
Mr. Game & Watch

Their moves, statistics, and equipment will be based on their movesets from either Brawl or Melee, or mixing and matching as I see fit. In addition, I add Naruto Uzumaki from the Naruto Shippuden anime.

As per the change of rules, my opponent will now state his remaining 2 characters to me in the comments section and I will respond with my final character. He will then post his strategy and why his team is better than mine so that we don't lose any rounds.

I look forward to my opponent's response.
Debate Round No. 1


Fourth Team Member: Rayquaza

Air Lock ability. EV'd in Attack and Special Attack, extra in Speed. Serious nature. Maxed out IVs. Attacks PP-maxed. Knows Tailwind, Draco Meteor, Dragon Dance, and Outrage. Holds a Focus Sash.

Fifth Team Member: Lapras

Water Absorb ability. EV'd in Defense and Special Defense, extra in HP. Relaxed nature. Maxed out IVs. Attacks PP-maxed. Knows Confuse Ray, Perish Song, Block, and Growl. Holds a Focus Sash.

I would like to thank Kleptin for this opportunity to battle him.

First things first: I need to use my preparation time. Note that all preparation planning is subject to change.

Lucas captures Rayquaza, Alakazam, and Lapras using Luxury Balls. They all comply.

Lucas uses TMs Psychic, Calm Mind, and Hyper Beam on Alakazam, leaving only the original attack Teleport.

Lucas uses HM Surf on Rayquaza, replacing Draco Meteor.

Lucas uses HM Surf on Lapras, replacing Growl.

Rayquaza uses Tailwind on the Battle Room, creating large gusts of wind pushing against Team CON's portal. As Falco, Fox, and Mr. Game & Watch are all very susceptible to wind, they cannot push forwards at all, stuck in the preparation room for the full five minutes. Rayquaza refreshes Tailwind whenever necessary.

Rayquaza uses Dragon Dance numerous times.

Link puts on his Zora Armor.

Lucas and Link exit the portal immediately before my opponent is done, after preparation, with Lapras and Rayquaza put forwards. Otherwise, Dragon Dance is used six times.

Due to Tailwind and Dragon Dance, Rayquaza lets off a very quick Surf.

All of Team CON are hit, and extremely damaged, due to Rayquaza's immense power.

Lapras is healed by the Surf, thanks to Water Absorb.

Link is unaffected thanks to his Zora Armor.

Lucas is unaffected for some unknown reason, which we know exists because Lucas is never harmed when his own Pokemon uses Surf.

Lapras uses Perish Song. The sound is amplified with the Surf. Everybody is hit, with Perish Counters established, with the exception of Lucas, as he is never affected by his own Pokemon's Perish Song.

Link pulls out his bow and arrow, and unleashes a barrage of arrows on Naruto and Deidara, who are pressed against Team CON's wall due to the Tailwind.

Rayquaza continues the Surfs, joined by Lapras, keeping all of Team CON at bay.

Eventually, everybody faints due to Perish Song, except Lucas and Alakazam.

Team PRO wins!

Other strategies:

Alakazam can use Psychic to easily pick off Fox, Falco, and Mr. Game & Watch, and even Naruto or Deidara. Rayquaza's Hyper Beam would be equally if not more effective.

Lapras can use Confuse Ray on any enemy that might actually be disruptive.

Alakazam can use TM Shock Wave to neutralize Deidara's clay attacks, as explained here [1].

Note that Alakazam normally has to use much of its psychic power to move its body due to gravity. However, with the lack of gravity in the Battle Room, Alakazam does not need to do so anymore, allowing more psychic power to be afforded to attacks.

That will be all for now. Good luck!



I thank my opponent for his response. I shall now illustrate my plan of attack. There are several things my opponent did not take into consideration, which will be elucidated as I make my argument.

Before I begin, preliminary note: My opponent does *not* reserve the right to re-prepare. The debate is on who will win. My team was selected because of their element of surprise. My opponent has decided to bypass the decided restriction that the moves for the pokemon be revealed by bringing extra TMs and HMs. This is fine, but a little ratty of my opponent. However, he has decided on his strategy and his moves. Knowing my strategy, my element of surprise, and then redoing his entire argument is cheating. My opponent has no time-travel abilities.

I repeat, According to my opponent, "each debater will explain why their team is superior during this debate." My explanation as to why my team is superior is due to the element of surprise. They would not know what I have in store in the preparation room, they would only know what I have in store after the battle begins and they get clues as to what I want to do.

My opponent has shown what tactics his team will use if given all the information I have given. His preparation is set, any other changes must take place AFTER he performs all the actions he stated. My opponent cannot claim to have psychic or time travel powers and thus change his entire preparation plan AFTER I have revealed what fate awaits his team after they enter the battle room.


1. Deidara's giant clay dragon splits into hundreds and hundreds of pieces of explosive clay
2. Naruto dumps the bucket of ink on his person and uses the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu to replicate several hundred times.
3. Each Naruto clone grabs a piece of clay and stuffs it into his ears. Similarly, Fox, Falco, Game&Watch, Deidara, and Naruto all stuff pieces of the clay into their ears. This is to protect against Perish Song.


1. Fox, Falco, and Mr. Game & Watch exit. Game & Watch sticks by the door. Fox and Falco bounce off the ceiling and use their speed attacks, and since there is no gravity, they propel themselves where they want to go with lightning speed. They stop themselves using Chakra instead of the friction of the ground. The real Naruto and Deidara also move themselves someplace with the same tactic. Their ninja abilities already make them faster than the naked eye, combined with the fact that there is no gravity, they can propel themselves off the celing and down towards the battlefield.

2. Link and Midna explode in a giant ball of fire. Ten of the clones has detected him and attacked him from behind and Deidara's clay piece has caused a massive explosion. Why? Because Midna glows.

3. The light of the explosion then reveals the location of other enemies on the battlefield, combined with Fox's and Falco's bright lasers. At that moment, the hundreds of Naruto clones then bombard each other character with massive explosions.

4. Lucas will obviously die in a hideous explosion as he is human.

5. Alakazam, Lapras, and Rayquaza, though strong and fast, are no match for dozens of exploding Narutos bombarding them at a time from all directions.

Within 7 seconds of my characters leaving the gate, all of my opponent's team members will be destroyed in fiery death.


1. Rayquaza's Tailwind does nothing but increase the speed of his team members for 3 turns. His alleged wind effect is not part of the agreed video game canon and he has violated rules.

See source: Tailwind is a non-damaging Flying-type move introduced in Generation IV. Tailwind doubles the Speed stat of the user and all other Pok�mon in the player's party for three turns.

2. The time it will take for Lucas to catch his pokemon, reteach them TMs/HMs, and command them to do things is less than the approximate 4 seconds it would take for all of my team members to be out of the gate, and less than the approximate 7 seconds it would take for all of my members to take their positions, waiting in the dark, invisible. Even if Link leaves faster, all he will do is stand around while my narutos are charging towards him. If Link counts to "3" starting when he steps out of the portal, he will die in a fiery death.

3. Rayquaza and Lapras, when they are "put forward", will be instantaneously decimated by the dozens of hidden narutos doused in black ink, hiding all over the walls. In less than a fraction of a second, they can launch themselves and detonate. However fast the pokemon are, they will not live after 30 explosions prior to their first move.

4. Rayquaza's Surf is completely meaningless. The damage of surf occurs when something is hit with the giant wave. The summoned wave will simply hang in the battle room motionless because there is no gravity in the battle room.

See source: "It swamps the entire battlefield with a giant wave".

5. Assuming that Lapras survives (which it won't, since it's exploded in fiery death), my opponent has essentially doomed all of his team except Alakazam and Lucas anyway, because none of my team members can hear the Perish Song due to the clay stuck in their ears.

See Source: After 3 turns, all Pok�mon that were on the field when Perish Song was used will faint unless they switch out. Perish Song does not affect Pok�mon with the ability Soundproof.

6. Link, even if he hasn't been exploded in fiery death (which he has), and even if rule violations were allowed (such as Tailwind doing something completely different from what it does), Link would be unable to unleash a barrage of arrows. First of all, Link would have no idea where Naruto and Deidara are, because there is no light in the battle room. Furthermore, when Link decided to move out of the portal, he will be perpetually going forward, making his aim less steady. His arrows will leave his quiver and scatter all around because there is no top to secure them. If he manages to get one arrow, he will fire and miss, then spin around in circles due to the force of tension in the bow and its subsequent release. With his arrows and him flying all around, he is worthless as a fighter in this realm of no gravity.

See source: Image

Rayquaza would have no surf to continue, Lapras will not be able to join when he is in 1000 bloody fragments.


As can be seen, my team is clearly superior. My opponent has grossly neglected his own rules, which were that there is no gravity in the room and that there is no light. He also makes several assumptions based on flawed data which I have corrected. In all logic and reason, my opponent's entire team will be completely decimated in fiery destruction. Furthermore, I have argued against my opponent's assertion that he can cheat, rewind time with the knowledge of my ambush, and replan accordingly in the next round.

My opponent MUST pretend that in preparing for the battle, he does not know my strategy. My opponent, by making the plan he did, shows that he would have chosen the preparations that he did. He cannot justify choosing new preparations.

Thank you to the audience and to my opponent. I eagerly await the next round.

Debate Round No. 2


Thank you for responding, Kleptin.

Firstly, my opponent criticizes my reserved right to edit my preparation, claiming that editting my strategy after seeing his would be cheating. However, there are numerous problems with this.
For one, my opponent's strategy already seems to have been made in response to my own, with everybody stuffing their ears with clay. My opponent cannot prove that this was not come up with after I posted my argument. Therefore, in the interest of fairness, I must be allowed to edit my opening preparation.
Additionally, what Team CON does directly affects what Team PRO does. For example, as Lucas is using his TMs, he suddenly hears Fox in the Battle Room using Fire Fox or Fox Illusion, each of which has a distinct sound. However, he realizes that he cannot see Fox. This gets him thinking in a different way than my previous preparation, and therefore requires editing. Lucas concludes that he wants to see Fox, so he teaches Alakazam TM Flash and uses it, exposing Team CON. Lucas then uses what he sees to formulate new plans if necessary. This is just one of many examples of how requiring me to stick to my original preparation is illogical.

Problems with my opponent's plans:

1. Where is this ink bucket coming from? I would like a reason why there is an ink bucket.

2. What source talks about ninja abilities being faster than the naked eye? And how can chakra be used for levitation? And are Naruto and Deidara able to fight the Tailwind?

3. Midna may glow sometimes, but not always. Midna usually disquises herself as Link's shadow, and shadows do not glow.

This flaws my opponent's entire plan.

Problems with my opponent's rebuttals:

1. Tailwind: "The user whips up a turbulent whirlwind that ups the Speed of all party Pok�mon for three turns." [1]
The wind is a natural part of the attack. Sure, Pok�mon in the games may not be pushed back by wind at all, only being slowed down, but SSB characters are very vulnerable to wind. The "wind effect" is actually just wind. SSB characters are the ones who have their problems with it.

2. My opponent seems to think that his team is faster than mine. However, Rayquaza has used Dragon Dance six times, quadrupling its own speed, and it has used Tailwind, redoubling it. Rayquaza is now very fast, and can easily come out alone and unleash one Surf to sweep all of the Narutos away.

3. Surf is not completely meaningless. Although there may not be gravity for the downwards crash, the water is still being propelled forwards by the very force of the attack, which would sweep Team CON back into the opposing wall. The water would be quite crushing at that point. Additionally, I can prove that Surf does not do any less damage with decreasing gravity. Surf's damage is not affected by the effect of Gravity, a move that intensifies gravity to the point where free-flying Pok�mon are suddenly grounded. This significant change produces no change whatsoever in Surf's damage. The animation for Surf does not change with intensified gravity. Therefore, it is only logical that Surf would not change with lessened gravity.

Question: As the battlefield has been completely swamped, how do Exploding Clay and Clones react to this? I know that the SSB characters drown.

4. Lucas, having realized that Team CON has stuffed their ears with clay, no longer commands Lapras to use Perish Song. Instead, it uses Confuse Ray on Naruto.

5. Okay, I will admit that Link could miss due to the lack of light. I was counting on his being able to hear. However, thanks to Flash, there is light, so I can start this contention anew.
Link gets out his Double Clawshots and starts swinging around by gripping the handles on the wall. By chaining handles, he can get anywhere with ease. This allows him to snipe Team CON.


I did not neglect my own rules. Gravity is irrelevant to all of my plans, and light is not necessary.
I have used logic and reason to show that I may edit my preparations in response to actions performed by Team CON.
Rayquaza can easily unleash a Surf before Team CON's Exploding Clay plan works.
Tailwind uses no flawed data, but rather its own canonical description.



I thank my opponent for his response. As per his request, I delayed my response until Saturday (today) since he must travel this weekend and shall now offer my counterpoints.


I have contacted my opponent via message and presented him with various reasons why I feel it would not be fair.

A. My opponent already stated that Lapras had "Perish Song" long before he posted his strategy, this was not abused knowledge.
B. My strategy had nothing to do with anything my opponent said, so I had no advantage.
C. If I did not prepare any differently, my opponent should not prepare differently
D. In the first Round, Fox and Falco used their attacks. Even IF Lucas heard the sound (which he can't), then why didn't he make the conclusion then? Why make it in the second round even though nothing changed?

After presenting my arguments, my opponent has agreed against changing his preparations and stated to me in private message:

Mongeese- Friday, November 20, 2009 @ 2:28:20 PM
Okay. Flash is not used in the preparation room.


1. As I posted in the comments section, the ink bucket was a leftover of editing. It has no effect on the battle and can be ignored.

2A. Naruto makes frequent use of "Kawarimi" in which he replaces his body with another object at the last second. It is based on "shunshin" or a body flicker in which a Ninja uses his chakra to move so quickly, it will appear like a teleport or "blinking". This is why Ninja moves tend to be faster than the naked eye.

2B. Naruto has wind affinity and chakra control over the deadly "Rasengan", a massive and deadly wind attack. His chakra control over wind allows him to apply heavy friction between himself and the air. This is how Naruto clones will stop where they want in 0G.

2C. See Point 1 in the next section.

3. In the case that midna cannot be detected, link would be able to survive only 2 seconds longer. Once my narutos have taken position, Fox and Falco will fire their lasers from the corners of the room, illuminating the room. Once this happens, a dozen Narutos all over the walls will launch at Link.


1. Tailwind does not have wind effect. His very own source states that the move "whips up the speed of his own pokemon". All this move does is increase speed. It does not say anything about the wind affecting my team members. If it really had that effect, opposing pokemon would be blown away in the actual game. They are not. In addition, where is my opponent's source showing that SSB characters are sensitive to the wind? To a wind that deals no damage and is generated 100 meters away? His evidence that my characters cannot use their moves even IF he proves all of the above? And has my opponent forgotted that neither Naruto nor Deidara are SSB characters?

2. My opponent can say that Rayquaza has a speed of 1 million, but without a mode of comparison, we cannot assume that he moves faster than the blink of an eye. An speed of 1 million could be the crawl of an ant. In a pokemon double battle, Pokemon speed determines the order that pokemon battle in, not how many attacks they get to do. So while Rayquaza may beat Naruto A in terms of speed, Narutos B,C,D,E,F,G,and H are all suicide bombing into Rayquaza. So what exactly does Rayquaza's speed mean? My opponent never said.

3. My opponent's point about Surf has merit, but this does not mean that the wave will actually hit. First of all, my opponent has not shown that Rayquaza is faster than 50 Narutos exploding on him at once in the blink of an eye. If he does manage to prove it, then Rayquaza will simply die AFTER launching SURF. Then, I would just have a few narutos explode onto the wave, until they make a hole big enough for my other characters to conveniently pass through as the wave charges towards the back wall. Remember that in 0G, a wall of water will shatter just like any other wall, except much easier. I also regret to inform my opponent that he has no evidence to the claim that animations of the pokemon attacks are not to scale. We cannot admit that assumption until he proves that the animations are to scale.


Swamping would only occur if water can settle on the ground, and even then, it would only be knee deep at MOST. There would be no drowning involved. In 0G, Most of the water would simply be nailed to the back wall, which my characters would just steer clear of by way of the giant hole my narutos exploded.

4. Lucas wouldn't even be alive as the Narutos would have killed him long, long ago. If my opponent can explain why he is still alive despite the fact that dozens of explosions would have occurred in a few seconds after he exited the portal, then neither he nor Lapras would be able to see anything as they are blind. Alakazam did not use flash, according to my opponent's revision. Even IF my opponent managed to find an argument for them to see the Narutos, the hundreds of Narutos are indistinguishable. By the time Lapras is done deciding, 20 Narutos would have already exploded onto it. In addition, Naruto clones are slightly resistant to Genjutsu, a form of confusion or mind altering move in Naruto, just like Confuse Ray. In the event that my opponent bypasses all of these (which is impossible) Confuse ray fails on pokemon with an active substitute. If Lapras manages to find the actual Naruto, it would STILL fail because Naruto has several hundred "substitutes" on the field.

5. Link and Midna were the first ones killed. If my opponent can argue how Link bypassed over a dozen explosive missiles hurtling at him in speeds faster than the eye, what is it that allows link to chainswing faster than the Narutos afterwards? My opponent admitted that there is no Flash, so in that case, Link would be blind. If he overcomes this, my opponent again forgets that this is 0G. If Link tries to launch his clawshot, the propulsion would launch him backwards with the same force, halving the distance of the chain anyway. Even if it latches onto the handle, if he tries to launch his other one, he will spin around in an awkward circle because his right hand is taught with a chain and the backwards force of his left hand would knock him in a curve. And even IF he bypassed this, he would need to deal with the fact that as he is moving around, all his arrows have probably left his quiver.


1. My opponent conceded that changing preparations is not allowed.

2. My opponent cannot define pokemon speed and must show that Rayquaza moves faster than the visible eye, as Naruto does.

3. Tailwind has no effect on opponents, in the Pokemon game, according to my opponent's source, or in this debate. He has no evidence stating otherwise.

4. Surf, Confuse Ray, and Link's arrows are defended against on many levels. My opponent cannot even argue that any of his team can even survive to use a single move yet. Even if he does, I provided many preliminary arguments just in case.

5. All of my opponent's rebuttals are shown to be flawed.

I await my opponent's response. Thank you.


3. Video:

Debate Round No. 3


I have agreed not to change my preparations.

My Rebuttals:

3. Firing the lasers will not light up the entire room. The target may light up, but nothing beyond that. This means that Falco and Fox would have to hit accurately to have an effect, and they're firing in 3D this time. They aren't capable of turning their guns, so they're stuck aiming at one point (or straight line, if they're free-floating). Therefore, my opponent's estimation of two seconds is actually much longer. As my opponent isn't even going to be aware of when my team is coming out, Fox and Falco will have to fire their lasers continuously. My team can then easily notice and work around the pattern of lasers. Plus, if Tailwind works (see below), then there's really no concern here.

My Countering of my Opponent's Rebuttals:

1. My opponent concludes that because Tailwind whips up the speed of my own Pok�mon, it can only whip up the speed of my own Pok�mon, and nothing else. This is an argument from silence. The point is, there is wind. While Pok�mon are apparently not programmed to be able to be blown away by turbulent whirlwinds, this is definitely not true for SSB characters. As for a source, I have a picture of Gusty Gus: They are able to use their moves, but as their lasers have limited distance, it won't help them in any way. Naruto and Deidara are not SSB characters, and are thus not affected in the way that SSB characters are.

2. Okay, see the video (about 2:17) for Surf. It only takes about two seconds to hit. Given that I have shown my opponent's own estimations for when he starts suicide bombing to be incorrect, Rayquaza can let loose a Surf before being bombed. As only Lapras also has a Speed stat, I guess only Lapras will be able to interfere with Rayquaza's attack, but the two seconds to hit are what we should be concerned with.

3. My opponent has already admitted to taking at least two seconds to initiate project Suicide Bomber, so saying "the blink of an eye" isn't true. I have already shown why Surf still has all of its power even in null gravity. The power of the Surf, being taken by Naruto hundreds of times over, would be far too much for him. He would collapse, and his clones would disperse. See the video for the animation, which I think is quite obviously to scale. Why wouldn't it be?

4. Rayquaza's Surf would have already cleared the Narutos, but I will agree that Confuse Ray will not work.

5. As the laser strategy fails, Rayquaza eliminates the Narutos early, so Link will not be killed early. Plus, Link has four fairies in bottles that revive him afterwards anyways. However, given Link's blindness, he simply floats around for a while, experimenting with his Clawshot, and figuring out how he can work it into a strategy. Team CON wouldn't even be aware of this, as they can't hear him, and anyone hit by the Clawshot would already be knocked out anyways. He is soon used to using the Double Clawshots in null gravity. After he has ascertained that all of the Narutos have been killed by Surf, he takes out his Lantern, brightening up the immediate vincity. Of course, at this point, I doubt anybody on Team CON would survive a chain of Surfs, but if they do, Link uses his slight experience in null-G maneuvering to make his way over to an opponent and fire Clawshots at them. The arrows are all gone, but that's life.

In conclusion:

1. Despite Naruto's faster-than-eye movements, the suicide bombing are delayed a few seconds by blindness, well enough for Rayquaza to let loose a powerful Surf to disperse all of the Narutos.

2. Tailwind has no effect on opponents in its own game, but SSB characters react to the same wind differently. See Gusty Gus.

3. My opponent has dropped my argument that Surf is still just as powerful in the Battle Room as on Earth, so Surf is still powerful, crashing into everybody in the room and eliminating most of Team CON.

Good luck, Kleptin!


An excellent post by my opponent. I shall now respond. I will change my format slightly, to illustrate what happens at instances of time such as T = 10 or T = 5.

In the event that I realize that Fox and Falco's lasers are insufficient, I will do the following:

First, I position my Narutos along the sides of the walls of the entire battle room, and hovering all throughout the space between, just like I have said in rounds prior. If Midna glows, Link dies immediately at T=6 seconds. If Midna doesn't glow, but Fox and Falco shoot lasers, he would die at T=8. I order Fox and Falco to shoot, only to realize that their range is not enough, then I tell them to stop. Instead I will then have a naruto at the far end explode his clay. The light from the explosion will be quite sufficient to light up at least that part of the room and a split second once that happens, Link is revealed, and Link is dead. 1 second to detect link, 2 seconds to kill. At T=9, Link is dead if Midna glows and my lasers fail.

After seeing that his fairy pops out of the bottle, five other narutos snatch the rest of Link's bottles, and release them as well. Meanwhile, another 5 narutos bounce off the wall and use their momentum to snatch Link himself. All 4 fairies are now healing link while the other 5 Narutos are speeding him towards my side of the battle room. It takes approximately 5 seconds for a fairy to restore Link to life. Once Link awakens, the Narutos holding him down will explode and destroy him permanently, since he has no fairies left. The other three fairies will be released at T=10 and Link will be halfway to my side of the Battle Room by T=12. He will be a corpse again by T=15.

MEANWHILE, Lucas cannot issue commands while inside the preparation room, as it counts as an "attack". Lucas AND his pokemon must be out of the preparation room before initiating attack. It takes Lucas 1 second to open his bag, one second to grab 3 luxury balls at once, 1 second to throw them at the pokemon, 2 seconds for the ball to catch the pokemon inside and 3 seconds for the standard "wiggle" and for the red button to turn white, and another second for the pokemon to pop back out. Assuming that he fetches all the TMs and HMs from his bag while the pokemon are being caught and rereleased, it would take him 5 seconds to use the 5 machines. In total, it takes Lucas and all his pokemon 12 seconds at maximum speed to get out of the room. (To be honest, Lucas acting this fast would defy the laws of physics, but I'm just saying.) In these 12 seconds, my Narutos would have already been set up all over the battlefield, along the walls, and around my opponent's portal. Link would already be dead the first time, and would be speeding towards my side of the field.

At T=12, Lucas comes out with all of his pokemon just as Link is being sped away. He calls Tailwind. At T=12, a Naruto by the portal hears Lucas shout "Tailwind" and explodes, killing Lucas since he is just a normal human. The light of the explosion shows all four pokemon and dozens of Narutos speed in with their explosive fiery death within a second.

Now, assuming that Tailwind actually does go through, My opponent accuses me of using an argument by silence. However, I have done nothing of the sort. I merely requested evidence. The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim. Should we assume that tailwind also makes flowers grow out of Naruto's head? No. Because there is no evidence. My opponent claims that tailwind has an effect on opponents, and the bulbapedia source states that the effect is speed for his own pokemon. Until evidence is provided, we will just assume that tailwind does what bulbapedia says it does. As for his source, Gusty Gus =/= tailwind. Plain and simple. Unless my opponent can prove that Gusty Gus was actually using tailwind, his evidence is nonsensical. Furthermore, Gusty Gus only occurs in SSBB. I said before that I reserve the right to use either the SSBM version or the SSBB version and to mix and match characteristics as I chose. Can my opponent provide a wind-related evidence in SSBM?

At this moment in time, the Narutos would know that my opponent's team is out of the gate and they are all bombarding them. Keep in mind that Rayquaza barely had enough time to unleash Tailwind before he dies. How could he unleash Surf?

If it just so happens that Surf is unleashed somehow, then it still wouldn't matter. Rayquaza and the other pokemon would be dead before the Surf wave actually starts moving since several dozen Narutos would have been exploding on them. Now, it's just a matter of dealing with the wave.

Did you notice how the wave has a crest in the video? The wave is shaped like a slash "/". The wave will travel shaped like a slash and will never crash down because there is no gravity. According to my opponent's video, at 2:28, Surf was used, at 2:30, it begins to move, and at 2:32, it finally hits. However, it only hits because the top part of the wave was pulled down by gravity. If there were no gravity, it would hit at 2:34 instead. Why? Because the base of the wave is what would make contact, and the base is further away than the crest.

Thus, Surf will travel the distance between one pokemon and the other in a matter of 4 seconds in 0G. In that case, what is the distance between the two pokemon? At 0:55, we can see that the distance is about 3.5 kyogre lengths, and at 1:50, we can see that the pokemon trainer's height (approx 5'9) is about 1/3 the length of the kyogre. This means that Kyogre is about 207 inches long and the distance about 725 inches. Convert it to meters, and Surf will travel 18 meters in 4 seconds in 0G.

Within 1 second, I will simply get a dozen narutos to blast the crest such that it leaves a big gap between the wall and the wave. Since the battle room is 100 meters long, it will take 2 seconds to summon the wave, and 22 seconds for it to travel 99 meters from one end of the wall to the other. While it is traveling, all of my characters would simply move to the wall where the wave doesn't touch and be completely dry and unharmed. The wave will crash onto the back wall 24 seconds after Rayquaza somehow manages to use Surf.

Of course, everyone on my opponent's team would be dead except for Link even while Rayquaza is using Tailwind, and if not by then, definitely by the time Rayquaza decides to use Surf.


1. Naruto's movements are faster than the eye, and the delay is only in the beginning while setting up. Whenever he DOES choose to suicide bomb, he will do so faster than the eye. Rayquaza cannot use Surf until Lucas commands him to. Lucas cannot command attacks until he is out of the Prep room. Lucas cannot leave the Prep room until he finishes all his preparations, and his preparations take at least 12 seconds even if he moves as quickly as "The Flash". My suicide bombing would still have taken place before Lucas and the other pokemon exit the Prep room.

2. Gusty Gus =/= Tailwind, can my opponent prove that Gusty Gus is a pokemon? And if I choose to say that Gusty Gus is a Brawl character and my characters are all from Melee?

3. I have not. My opponent failed to note that I responded, saying that animation for the moves in the GB versions were not to scale. He responded with either Stadium or Coliseum videos. First of all, my opponent's argument is that since the pokemon move "gravity" doesn't change the animation of "surf", then surf is unaffected by gravity. This is an equivocation fallacy. The pokemon move "gravity" may not necessarily change the actual, physical gravitational force. It may just ground flying types. But this point is null because I provided a defense that makes Surf completely useless.

I look forward to my opponent's response. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 4


My opponent seems to base his plan around the idea that Link leaves at T=5. However, I have already specified that Lucas and Link only leave if they can do so before my opponent is done; otherwise, I await six Dragon Dances by Rayquaza. After seeing the lasers, Link concludes that it is not safe to leave yet. Instead, a Naruto clone explodes, revealing absolutely nothing. The real Naruto starts to feel queasy after one of his clones was damaged so badly.

Upon hearing and seeing the explosion, Lucas has an idea. He teaches Lapras Substitute to replace Block, and has a Substitute pushed into the Battle Room. A large number of Narutos don't realize that it is a Substitute, and suicide-bomb it.

The Narutos then conclude that they cannot explode to create light, leaving them in the dark about Team PRO's strategies.

"MEANWHILE, Lucas cannot issue commands while inside the preparation room, as it counts as an 'attack'."
Rule 4: " By 'attack,' I mean that neither team may disrupt the other team in any way as long as either team is in the Preparation Room."
Commands can be issued; as long as the Pok�mon is outside the Preparation Room while the attack actually occurs, it is by the rules.

"At T=12, a Naruto by the portal hears Lucas shout 'Tailwind' and explodes, killing Lucas since he is just a normal human."
For one thing, the command can be issued in the Preparation Room.
For another, "each Naruto clone grabs a piece of clay and stuffs it into his ears." The Naruto has made himself deaf. He can't hear a command.

My opponent continues his argument against Tailwind. I would like to make a quick analogy. Say my opponent decided to use a character that was made of dynamite, exploding when exposed to fire, and say I used Charizard. Nowhere in the games does Flamethrower ever trigger dynamite, as there is no fire-susceptible dynamite in the games, so my opponent would have you conclude that Flamethrower's flames would not trigger the dynamite of his character. However, this assumes a complete lack of compatability between any games whatsoever, and ultimately leads to no possible interactions between characters of different games. Therefore, my opponent's interpretation is false.
As for SSBM, see Whispy Woods. (

My opponent assumes that he can bomb Rayquaza before Surf is unleashed, but there are two problems. One, the Narutos aren't even aware of Surf being unleashed. Two, there's nothing to stop Rayquaza from initiating Surf while in the preparation room, to carry it into the Battle Room to attack Team CON.

My opponent plans to evacuate Team CON to the back wall after Surf is unleashed. However, nobody on Team CON can actually evacuate what they are not aware of, and as they can neither see nor hear, they are hopeless against the Surf that they don't even consider the existence of. In fact, among what they know, they know they don't know, and what they don't know they don't know, the looming Surf would fall into the third category. By the time they realize it, it's too late. They've been hit.

Should any member of Team CON successfully escape, Rayquaza needs only to let loose another Surf to follow the first, but this time in a more random direction.

For my concluding points:

1. As my opponent claims that his suicide bombing will occur before Lucas is out of the prep room, the Narutos will be bombing empty air.

2. Gusty Gus is not a Pok�mon, but it is clear that if any trans-source interaction can ever occur in Ultimate Team War, the intense similarities between the attacks of Gusty Gus and Whispy Woods and Tailwind are too great to ignore.

3. I cited the GameBoy versions?

My opponent chooses to a respond to my Round 3 argument, which should have been taken care of in Round 4.

"The pokemon move 'gravity' may not necessarily change the actual, physical gravitational force. It may just ground flying types."
Again, my opponent chooses to ignore the implications of an attack and assume that the proven effects are the only effects, even if obvious inference shows otherwise. But fear not, I can quote Bulbapedia (
"Gravity is intensified for five turns, making moves involving flying unusable and negating Levitation."

Now, to sum it all up:

Team CON is completely unaware of what Team PRO does. It relies on sight, but as Midna does not glow, and the laser blasters are inefficient lines of weak light, Team PRO will simply be waiting for what they think they will see, allowing Team PRO to work without Team CON even knowing. They're still waiting to see Midna while Lucas prepares, and Link is still waiting.

A few Narutos would be lost with pre-emptive suicide bombing, weakening Naruto greatly.

Rayquaza uses Tailwind, then Surf, without any of the Narutos even getting to know that Rayquaza has come out.

Rayquaza's invisible Surf first kills all of the Naruto clones directly next to the Team PRO wall. Others soon follow. The invisible Surf completely wipes out Team CON. Any survivors are picked apart by Clawshotting (as explained in earlier rounds), Hyper Beam, and Outrage.

That will be all. Thank you for your time, and thank you for this wonderful debate, Kleptin.


I thank my opponent for what has been a spectacular debate and as promised, I will offer no new arguments. However, my opponent has made many assumptions and many errors that need to be clarified, and has also made some radical changes to his arguments. For that, I will provide extra clarification, but only from sources that were already accessible to my opponent.

1. My opponent claims that Link does not leave first and claims that he has specifed that Lucas and Link only leave if they can do so BEFORE I am done. However, this is a blatant lie as he has never made any claim to that effect. He suggests that Link would not be killed early if Rayquaza eliminates the Narutos early, but this does not show when Link exits the portal.

2. In rounds prior, my opponent admitted that his preparations would not change so long as my preparations do not give him a reason to change. In rounds prior, Fox and Falco fired their lasers, but my opponent didn't choose to keep Link inside the room. In rounds prior, Lucas heard explosions from the battle room after I launched Narutos at Link, but he didn't choose to give Lapras substitute. Therefore, these strategies can be eliminated as it involves a contradiction of the terms my opponent agreed upon.

3. Yes, and your team member is disrupting my team while still in the preparation room, by giving commands. However, I will not be too strict with this rule, I will let it slide.

4. I obviously would not have my Naruto act as a spy while having his ears clogged. However, since my opponent is now suggesting that a person can see out of and hear out of the preparation room, then it is only reasonable that I can see and hear into my opponent's preparation room if I am close enough. My opponent stated that the battle room is unlit, but the border beteen the portal and the preparation room will be black on one side and light on the other. Pokemon will be visible when they step out. This will also lead to my Naruto detonating his explosion, with or without hearing.

5. Fine, I accept that Tailwind can have wind effects. However, my opponent did not prove that this wind effect has an effect of 100 meters. The power of the wind might be just enough for my characters to feel an invigorating breeze. Furthermore, my opponent has conceded that neither Naruto nor Deidara are affected, which is good enough for me to win the battle.

6. Rayquaza's Surf will be initiated by Lucas shouting the command, and my Naruto will hear the command. As I said, why would I have a Naruto act as my ears if I knew his ears were clogged with Clay? Furthermore, Naruto knows everything that his clones know.

If a clone gets hit by water, Naruto will know, and I can initiate my Surf defense as detailed in the last round. If my opponent decides to launch surf while in the preparation room, this would be even better. Remember that Surf comes from BEHIND the pokemon, as illustrated in my opponent's video. If Rayquaza stands on the edge of the battle room and the preparation room, or any bit further into the preparation room, then he will do nothing but flood the preparation room. The portal is 20m by 20m and I will simply have my characters move away from the center. His 20m by 20m cube-shaped Surf is of absolutely no concern since my Naruto spies will see, hear, and/or feel it coming. Each Naruto clone shares information with the real Naruto.


My opponent's entire strategy, which at first involved many aspects, has been whittled down massively in his last post. His entire strategy is to declare that my Narutos would not be able to see, hear, or respond to Rayquaza's Surf. He does not even bother responding to the time-based arguments I set off so I assume that he *has* no defense against them.

The point that my opponent did not understand, even though I shared the source in previous rounds is the fact that all Naruto clones share their experiences with Naruto after being dispelled. This includes the experience of being hit by a big wave. In addition, my Naruto *would* be able to hear the command because I would not reasonably send my spy to the portal with clay still stuck in his ears. If Lucas can hear explosions, then Naruto can hear shouted commands. If Link can see lasers before he exited the portal, than my Narutos would be able to see a Rayquaza using Surf in the lit preparation room. The wave would thus be very easily detected since my team would be able to see, hear, and experience Surf.

So no, my team would know EXACTLY what my opponent's team is doing, and does not rely on just sight but rather, on sight, sound, and a sort of extra-sense provided by the connection between Naruto and his clones.


Now, my opponent provided several new arguments in the last round regarding preparation changes. These preparation changes are against our agreement but I will address them anyway.

Let us assume that I allow my opponent all those preparation changes (which I don't, since they are illegal). First of all, Naruto would not feel queasy for dispelling a clone. Second, since my opponent says that Lucas can hear and Link can see what is going on outside the preparation room while inside the preparation room, then my Narutos will be able to see and hear Lucas making a substitute. I would not be that easily fooled.

Also, why would I conclude that they cannot explode to create light? This is a completely unfounded statement. Explosions produce light, whether they bomb a substitute or not. I would continue using explosions to provide light, as much light is needed to detect my opponent's pokemon and kill them with droves of suicide bombers.

My opponent's strategy with Lapras would fail and we would be at a standstill. My hundreds of Narutos will be floating around and all over the walls, Link, Lucas, and his three pokemon would be inside. He would have seen one laser and one explosion and made those preparations. Meanwhile, the battleroom is completely dark and the preparation room is lit. I can see inside and it reveals all of their actions. He can see outside and see absolutely nothing. His rayquaza would be using tailwind and dragon dance. If Rayquaza uses Surf from within the preparation room, the size of the wave would only be the size of the portal, and half of the wave would crash against the preparation room walls. My Narutos would simply step casually to the side. Eventually, time will run out and the team will have to come out. Whether they come out all at once or one at a time, it doesn't matter. The second they step out, they will be bombarded by the hidden suicide bombers that they cannot see.

No time to run, no time to react, no time to even scream.


After a very lengthy debate, I have shown that my team is far superior. Sticking with essentially the same strategy, I have managed to combat all of my opponent's multiple strategic changes. I have debunked every single point he made, provided defenses to every one of his plans and attacks. I have even provided defenses and arguments in case my opponent actually manages to bypass one of my arguments. My opponent has not illustrated a single instance in which he can win, as his last post was based on a single flawed assumption: That my Narutos won't be able to detect Surf.

I have provided arguments that my Narutos would not stop exploding to provide light, would be able to see very clearly with that light, would be able to defend against Surf by hearing and even touch, since Naruto shares experiences with his clones, even the experience of exploding.

With that, my opponent has absolutely no defense left standing.

Thank you to my opponent and to the audience. I hope we do this again sometime :)
Debate Round No. 5
41 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Kinesis 7 years ago
What vote? For an awesome debate like this? What gives?
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
Okay, I assumed as much. Otherwise, that ability would kind of suck =P.

C: Tie - There was some talk of rule breaking but it wasn't anything too severe.
S/G: Tie
A: Con - Con's plans and rebuttals were both clever and devastating. There are few ways to counter innumerable speedy suicide bombers, so agreeing not to alter his preparations essentially left Pro defenseless. I'd be interested in hearing what his plan would be had he been allowed to completely alter his strategy.
S: Con - As per UTW rules, the sources vote goes to the winner of the arguments category.
Posted by Kleptin 7 years ago
He is aware of what they experience, he doesn't actually experience it XD so no, the countless explosions don't impact him.

He will simply be aware that one of his clones was hit with a wave, not impacted with the wave himself.
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
In that case, I have one more question. When you say Naruto shares experiences with his clones, does this mean he actually shares their physical sensations or is he simply aware of them? It's probably evident where I'm going here but that last source was vague on this too.
Posted by Kleptin 7 years ago
It depends on the state of injury. His clones will dispel upon being struck with one or two solid blows, but he himself can take quite a bit of pain. If he gets considerably injured or knocked unconscious, I am fairly certain that his clones dispel, but I should do more research on that.

However, new clones are created in roughly his condition. He cannot create clones stronger or healthier than himself.
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
Excellent debate, guys. Before I vote, though, I was hoping you could answer a question for me, Kleptin. What is the status of the clones if Naruto is injured or incapacitated? Do they share his physical and mental state or would they carry on independently regardless of his condition? I'm not a Naruto fan and your source doesn't clarify so I'm in the dark here.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
I ended up returning a day before planned, so here I am!
Posted by Kleptin 7 years ago
How so?
Posted by Rockylightning 7 years ago
this is not a good debate
i mean really...
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
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