The Instigator
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper
Pro (for)
Winning
17 Points
The Contender
Logical-Master
Con (against)
Losing
10 Points

Ultimate Team War: GeorgeCarlinWorshipper Style

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/30/2009 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,890 times Debate No: 10614
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (29)
Votes (5)

 

GeorgeCarlinWorshipper

Pro

Hi, this is GCW here with my first UTW battle. I want to thank MTGandP for the UTW concept and LM for agreeing to this debate.

Key terms:

Combat Zone: The area within which the battle takes place. It is determined by a radius from the center of the specified area. The radius' length is determined by the distance from the center to either the highest point in the specified area or the area's edge.
God-level: Capable of individually creating destruction too great to be reasonably avoided, blocked, or survived within the limits of the combat zone. Long-range attacks that center on a lone enemy, such as a "sniper"-type attack, do not count as "god-level".

Now I will post the GCW rules:

I. 3-5-2 style team selection; first round is solely for character selection. Arguments begin in the second round.

II. No characters with power mimicry abilities. There are possible exceptions which should be discussed beforehand, i.e. Sharingan Users, as the Sharingan does not allow mimicry of actual "superpowers", per se.
NOTE: If a "mimic" character possesses certain powers beforehand, their inclusion is admissible as long as their mimicry powers are restricted.

III. The combat zone's area is determined by the instigator.

IV. There are two victory methods: Invalidation and Incapacitation. They are detailed in rules IX and X.

V. No "God-level" characters or Power Cosmic users.
If a character is perceived as "God-level", their selection can be contested. After that round, viewers should vote in the comments field as to whether the contested character's selection is valid; if the selection is invalidated, the character is removed. Debaters are not allowed to vote on character invalidation; however, the debater whose character is being contested may attempt to defend their character in the comments section. As a penalty, the offending debater is not allowed to replace the invalidated character.

VI. Characters' states and equipment must be announced during the "selection period"; the character must have owned the specified equipment at least once. If the possession is dubious, a source must be provided.
EXAMPLE: My first selection is Mace Windu from his chronological state just before his duel with Palpatine. He is equipped with his standard Jedi equipment, his own lightsaber, and Eeth Koth's lightsaber [1]
[1] http://starwars.wikia.com......

VII. Barring extenuating circumstances, Wikipedia and "Wikias" are treated as valid sources.

VIII. Combatants are not allowed to leave the combat zone of their own volition; if they are forced out by an opponent, they have twenty seconds to return. If the combatant cannot return in time, they are automatically invalidated.

IX. If a debater's entire team is invalidated, their opponent wins by default.

X. For a debater's team to be considered "incapacitated", their entire team must be rendered unable to continue battle, whether by unconsciousness, death, or other methods. However, as long as there is one remaining combat-capable character on a debater's team, the other characters may attempt to recover/regain consciousness/etc.

Now for the combat zone:
The cities of Midgar and Edge, as well as the surrounding area. The edge of the battlefield is Zack's grave, and the centerpoint is the center of Midgar. Since Midgar's area is indeterminate, for the purposes of this battle we will assume that it is 4 square miles, and the radius from the edge to the centerpoint is roughly 3 miles.
My first three team members:
1. Future Peter Petrelli (One of Us, One of Them; just before teleporting Peter to future) (http://heroeswiki.com...) NOTE: Peter is only able to use the superpowers he has already copied before this battle. He is unable to copy abilities for the duration of this battle.
2. The Sentry (One day after Civil War, fully rested) (http://marvel.wikia.com...(Earth-616))
3. Sephiroth (Just after Kadaj transformed into him) (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com...) He is equipped with his Masamune longsword, a Gold Armlet, a Tough Ring, and Mastered Fire, Ice, Earth, Lightning, Revive, Restore, and ALL Materia. The ALL materia is connected to the Ice, Lightning, and Earth Materia.

I ask that my opponent use his R1 only to select his five team members and potentially contest any characters or rules, rather than begin his arguments.

I will end by wishing my opponent luck and thanking the audience for their time.
Logical-Master

Con

Dr. Strange - http://marvel.com...
Sōsuke Aizen - http://en.wikipedia.org...
Super Saiyan Goku (Beginning of Android Saga)- http://en.wikipedia.org...
Reed Richards - http://en.wikipedia.org... (equipped with his ultimate nullifier ray
Balthier - http://en.wikipedia.org... (equipped with the best weapons/armor/accessories in the game, at the highest possible stats and knows every spell/ability which can be learned).

As of now, I do not contest any of the characters or rules, although I may depending on my opponent's arguments in future rounds.
Debate Round No. 1
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper

Pro

I will begin by thanking my opponent for the debate.

Now I will select my remaining two team members:

4. Nagato, chronologically immediately before his invasion of Konoha. He is equipped with the six Pain bodies and their standard equipment (robes, ninja tools, etc.), as well as his own standard equipment (his "platform", chakra transmission rods, etc.). http://naruto.wikia.com...
5. Chirox, chronologically immediately after his blinding. He is equipped with his usual armor and weapons, as well as his mask: the Kanohi Shelek, the mask of silence. http://biosector01.com...

Now I will proceed to define the chronological periods and equipment of all of my opponent's characters who were not already defined:
Dr. Strange: Chronologically immediately after birth; no equipment.
Sosuke Aizen: Chronologically immediately after birth; no equipment.
Goku: No equipment; Time period already defined.
Reed Richards: Chronologically immediately after birth; equipment already defined.
Balthier: Chronologically immediately after battle with Vayne Solidor; equipment already defined.

Though the UTW: GCW rules do not address exploitation of undefined terms, it is basic debate protocol that if one speaker fails to define a term, the responsibility of definition falls to the other speaker. Since LM did not define the time period/equipment of some of his characters, it fell to me to do so, as the time period and equipment of each character are key to this debate.

Now my tactics:

Peter will begin by speeding up his mental functions and subsequently "freezing" (drastically slowing) time on everything but his own team. Though time-freezing normally has a "charge period" of 2-3 seconds, with accelerated neural functions Peter can concentrate enough to freeze time before a single second has elapsed. Once this is done, Peter will telepathically locate the opposing team and teleport his team to them, as well as telepathically "mark" their locations for the blind Chirox. Chirox will then use his mask of silence to prevent the opposing team from communicating. Next, Peter will melt [1] the Ultimate Nullifier as my sped-up team lays waste to their opponents.

I will end by thanking my opponent for the debate and the viewers for their time.

[1] http://heroeswiki.com...
Logical-Master

Con

RE: chronological periods and equipment of all of my opponent's characters who were not already defined

Dr Strange: My opponent is misinformed. Dr Strange did not exist immediately after Steven Strange's birth. Steven Strange did not become Dr. Strange until a much later point in time. Given that this is the case, I shall do as my opponent has done and define Dr Strange's chronological placement since PRO has failed to do so. I shall be using the Dr. Strange slightly before he and Spider-man went back in time (specific issue shall be listed in comment section within several hours).
Sosuke Aizen: Agreed.
Goku: Agreed
Reed Richard: Agreed.
Balthier: agreed

Now my tactics:

TACTIC ONE: Leave it to Goku!

The very moment the fight begins, Goku uses instant transmission to teleport directly in front of Peter Petreli and punch his head clean off. Of course, Goku could also just I say this on the basis that not only can Goku detect other life forms, but that he can also move faster than Mr. Petreli can even think. I shall prove this using the Dragon Ball manga.

=======================
EVIDENCE and REASONING: http://www.mangavolume.com...

Bulma states it takes roughly 4339 years for the fastest spaceship on earth to make it to namek. Although the civilization in Dragon Ball Z is far more advanced than our current civilization, we shall assume that the fastest ship meets our standards of the fastest ship by agreeing that it moves at 30,000 km/hour: http://wiki.answers.com... . Even at this speed, it takes roughly 16 years to get to this planet. Light itself takes roughly 5.4 hours to reach Pluto while starting at the earth given the average distance between the two bodies: http://wiki.answers.com...

Using all of this information (specifically it taking 4339 years to make it to namek at roughly 30,000 km/hour), Namek is roughly 709,012,794,818 miles away from the earth. Given that light moves at 186,000 per second, it would take light 3,811,896 seconds to reach Namek.

On the other hand, Goku makes it from Namek to earth almost instantly via instant transmission: http://www.mangavolume.com...

This would suggest that he is AT LEAST 3,811,896 times faster than light when using his technique (which, as we've seen against the likes of Cell and Kid Buu, this technique can easily be used for battle purposes).
===============
TACTICS CONT:

Goku then proceeds to slaughter everyone else on team PRO before they can even react with ki blast. To refrain from being considered God level, he doesn't use any planet busting attacks, but does use a level of close combat techniques needed get the job done (just enough to not be considered God level). I shall elaborate further if PRO has reason to believe that anyone on his team other than Sentry can survive a direct encounter with a speed blitzing Goku. This would probably just leave Sentry,, but even at his fastest, he is still no match for the mighty super saiyan (although I'll gladly await evidence from PRO indicating otherwise). Goku quickly knocks Sentry into the air and fires a Super Kamehameha at him. Not necessarily for killing him, but to eject him out of the combat zone as he is being hit by the blast. By keeping the blast continuous for over 30 seconds, Sentry will be disqualified.

TACTICS 2: Built in Prep time.

PHASE ONE: Like the first tactic, Goku would start by speed blitzing Peter Petreli and konking him on the head just enough to leave him knocked out for a few minutes. After Goku performed this, Dr. Strange would take notice of the two combatants of mine who are in their infant states. He would quickly send them back to their respective dimensions in their respective points in time and let them grow up and live their lives to their prime (specifically, Reed Richards at a point in time at which he had the Ultimate Nullifier Ray on standby and was on good terms with Tony Stark and Sosuke Aizen as he had just finished dispatching Hirako Shinji, only for Ichigo to show up behind him . . . in other words, the latest chapter of Bleach). Strange would also have an automatic astral projection or doppleganger of himself inform them of the coming battle, so that they would be prepared for it and could perhaps develop technology needed to appropriately handle the situation.

Naturally, Reed would have time to ponder on team PRO's strength's/weaknesses and could develop a mass neuro neutralizer field (based on the neuro neutralizer ray. A specific example of this weapon can be found in Spiderman the animated series, Sins of the Father Chapter 2-3), with components borrowed either borrowed from Tony Stark's designs or from Shield. The ray used in Spider-Man the animated series was able to temporarily render Spider-Man immobile as well as cause him to lose his memory. Reed could also develop five suits which render it's wearers immune to the effects of the field of energy. Upon arriving back on the battlefield, Dr. Strange could instantly magically place each of these suits on my combatants.

Sosuke Aizen could have his 8th Espada develop him a device which would amplify the effects of his shikai to the point where seeing it wouldn't be necessary in order for it's effects to be activated. Either that or he could simply begin the battle by enhancing his zanpaktou to the size of a skyscraper. As noted by Isshin Kurosaki in Bleach chapter 187, Captain Class soul reapers are well capable of this: http://www.onemanga.com... Upon his zanpaktou being that size, it would be pretty hard to miss visually, thus the everyone in the city of midgar would be under his control.

In any case, both Aizen and Reed would arrive back in the combat zone fully grown and fully prepared for the battle at hand.

Naturally, my opponent is going to insist that this is a violation of the rules. However, I very much beg to differ.

1) PRO might say that Strange sent two members of my team out of the combat zone by his own violition. However, I'd say he was forced out. Let us remember that my opponent has combatants on his team who are well capable of area wide effects. In fact, his initial strategy revolves around one of his characters stopping time, hence leaving everyone defenseless. This character shall no doubt try the same upon regaining consciousness. Ergo, this move was made on behalf of my team having two characters who couldn't defend themselves, thus having not much of a choice, but to leave the arena, only to come back in a more comfortable position.

2) PRO might argue something along the lines of my character being outside of the combat zone for far more than 20 seconds. However, if you'll recall correctly, this is a matter of time travel. I've set this up to where Dr Strange has them come back one second after he has sent them out. In other words, they will have only been gone for one second

3) Time Travel isn't against the rules and it's not like I've used it to make it to where no one on Team PRO was ever born. :D

PHASE TWO: Aiezen activates his shikai and makes it as big as a skyscraper whereas Reed Richards turns on his neuro neutralizer energy field, which he designed to be able to reach the entire city of Midgar. Now everyone on Team PRO is temporarily immobile and has lost their memory. Aiezen controls their senses in a fashion to have each of them walk out of the combat zone and remain standing their for well over 20 seconds.

Balthier remains ready to cast reverse on himself and the rest of my combatants as well as drain Sephiroth of all of his MP or cast silence of him at any point in time just in case something is amiss. Goku remains in a fighting stance and Dr. Strange meditates.

And that'll do it for now.
Debate Round No. 2
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper

Pro

I will begin by thanking LM for a stellar response to my frankly unfair exploitation of loopholes. I would also like to apologize for said exploitation and commend LM for agreeing to continue debating under these adverse circumstances.

Since the issue of definitions has already been addressed, I will move on to my rebuttal. I would like to ask LM to leave all definitions "as is" and treat all current definitions as finalized.

==============

REBUTTAL:

"TACTIC ONE: Leave it to Goku!"

Though I acknowledge that Goku may be able to reach Peter with Instant Transmission, I contest my foe's claim that he would be able to outclass my entire team in terms of speed. Instant transmission is, in essence, a teleportation technique; it does not allow for accelerated neural function. My reasoning lies in the very workings of the technique [1]. The source I have provided specifies that the technique "briefly moves the user into a pocket dimension which then allows them to move to any location instantly". This proves that it is a quick-travel technique, rather than a speed-oriented technique. Peter, on the other hand, is fully capable of speeding up his neural functions, as the woman he copied the ability from (Daphne Millbrook) is capable of both thinking and moving at "normal" speed when time is drastically slowed around her [2]. Since Goku would take at least one second to sense my team's Ki signatures and Instant Transmit to them, it can be reasoned that Peter would be able to selectively "freeze" time on all elements but my team. Goku is not capable of thinking at enhanced speed; thus, when he "Instant Transmits" to my team, he would be leaving himself exposed to Soul Removal by Nagato's Human Path [3], as well as any other variety of fatal attacks.

IN SUMMARY: Though Goku can reach my team very quickly, Peter can still speed up his neural functions and subsequently "freeze" time on all but my own combatants. Since Goku cannot function at this speed, he would only be leaving himself vulnerable by following LM's "Tactic One".

"TACTIC TWO: PREP TIME"
I have already proven that Peter is capable of functioning far too quickly for Goku to compete with him. Since Goku is unable to incapacitate Peter as my opponent has suggested, Peter is still able to use Clairvoyance [4] [5] to locate my foe's team, teleport my own team there, and then have my team lay waste to LM's at enhanced speed. Since Balthier is exhausted from his battle with Vayne, he is unable to resist; Richards and Aizen are also unable to compete, as they are both infants. Strange is unable to put up any resistance as my combatants slay him before he can comprehend their presence, as he is incapable of enhanced speed.

IN SUMMARY: Peter can locate my opponent's team and lead my team to dismantle them before LM's team can take any significant action.

===============

Now I will address the issue of Nagato's "Pain Bodies":

Though some may think that Nagato's Six Paths are each seperate combatants, this is not the case. The bodies are, in fact, corpses that Pain manipulates through his "Pain Rikudo" technique [6]. In this regard, the bodies are essentially glorified ninja tools or puppets, as they do not function independently; Nagato uses his chakra transmission rods to remotely control them.

===========

I will now address each member of my foe's team and why they are unable to function at the speeds I am describing:

GOKU: I have already addressed Goku.
BALTHIER: Though Balthier is capable of speeding himself up, it takes at least one full second to cast Haste on himself or anyone else. This also assumes that a "Hasted" Balthier is fast enough to keep up with Peter, which is unlikely, as to do so would require moving faster than the human eye can perceive. Since Balthier's movements in FFXII can still be kept track of when he is "hasted", it can be reasoned that Balthier is incapable of keeping up with Peter.
DR. STRANGE: Dr. Strange is incapable of enhanced speed [7]. The source I have provided shows that Strange is only capable of moving at great speed through use of Astral Projection, which he does not have time to utilize in this battle. Since it would take him at least a half-second to cast any magic, it can be reasoned that Peter is too fast for Strange to deal with.
REED RICHARDS/SOSUKE AIZEN: Since I have proven that Strange will be killed before he can Time-Travel these two out of the combat zone, it can be reasoned that they are still infants at the time of the battle. Infants are not fast enough to compete with Peter.

I will end by thanking Logical-Master for the debate and the viewers for their time. When the voting period arrives, please vote for PRO.

============

SOURCES:
[1] http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[2] http://heroeswiki.com...
[3] http://naruto.wikia.com...
[4] http://heroeswiki.com...
[5] http://heroeswiki.com...
[6] http://naruto.wikia.com...
[7] http://marvel.wikia.com...(Earth-616)#Powers_and_Abilities
Logical-Master

Con

TACTIC ONE CONT: Leave it to Goku!
========================

I have to question legitimacy of PRO's first source as it makes several statements which are most inaccurate with the manga. In fact, Goku describes the technique here and he never says anything about moving in a pocket dimension: http://www.mangavolume.com...

Furthermore, we've seen it used as a combat technique when he fought Cooler (first video: 1:44 and on) ).

Moreover, that is all besides point. The fact of the matter is that my opponent is insisting that Goku does not possess the proper neuron efficiency needed to perform the tactic which I have summed up. However, my opponent is most incorrect. Take for instance Yamcha's battle with a saibaman who merlely had a stated power level of 1200. As you can see here, Gohan thinks that both Yamcha and the strange alien are invisible, yet Piccolo and the rest are easily able to see them, having heightened their senses with their ki: http://www.mangavolume.com...

This tells us that DBZ indicates that neuron functioning is in direct correspondence to the level of ki one has. Given that Goku's power level as a Super Saiyan is stated to be 150,000,000 ( http://dragonball.wikia.com... ) during his battle with Frieza and given that Goku is stronger at the beginning of the Android saga, his neuron functioning would at least be 125,000 times greater than the processing power in the earlier instance. Hence, to merely outperform an human who may at best have neuron processing power 2 or 3 times greater than an average human (which, in DBZ, is roughly around 5) would be child's play to the Super Saiyan.

Of course, without the numbers, my points can just as easily be supported by simply taking the time to watch the high speed battles which DBZ is stuffed with as all fighters would have to comprehend every move they were making in order to actually fight at such a speed in the first place. In fact, watch the second video to the right to see what I am talking about in action. Keep in mind that Goku wasn't even using full power at this point and that his max power was merely 85,000:

IN SUMMARY: I've thoroughly proven that Goku is very well capable of thinking at enhanced speeds. In fact, he would've lost most of his fights if he weren't. Thus, it remains clear that only could Goku locate Peter Petreli in teh confines of midgar in nigh-infinitely less than a single second, but that he could also annihilate him as well before Peter was even aware that the battle had begun.

TACTIC TWO CONT: PREP TIME
=====================

Since I've shown that Goku would still be too fast for Mr. Petreli, there isn't much to say here since PRO's case hinges on the man being able to think and react faster than Goku can. Thus, all goes as planned and Balthier makes sure to heal himself or curse reverse.

Since this debate comes down to whether or not Goku can tag Mr. Petreli fast enough to prevent his area wide effect, we shall leave it at that for now, although I may come up with additional strategies in next round.
Debate Round No. 3
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper

Pro

I would like to begin by thanking LM for the debate.

============

Now I will address the issue of sources:

Though LM "question legitimacy of PRO's first source", he used the same source himself: " Given that Goku's power level as a Super Saiyan is stated to be 150,000,000 ( http://dragonball.wikia.com...... )"; furthermore, the link he has provided in no way contradicts my source, as Goku does not describe the technique's workings.

========================

Now to TACTIC ONE: "Leave it to Goku"

I do not contest that Instant Transmission can be applied to combat, but that is not the issue at hand; the issue is whether Goku's mental functions are quick enough to keep up with Peter. I do not contest the "power levels" claim he makes, specifically that Goku's high power level allows him to move extremely quickly; however, Goku is not capable of moving at the speed of light (barring quick travel via I.T., which I have already proven does not speed up neural function). I reached this conclusion based on the fact that Goku's battles are shown with the background visible at Goku's speed; if he were capable of moving at lightspeed, the background would not be visible, as he would be moving/thinking too quickly for light to reach him. Sentry, on the other hand, is capable of thinking and moving at speeds "several times in excess of the speed of light" [1]. If Goku were to attempt this plan of attack, Sentry could merely stall him long enough for Peter to "freeze" time (in other words, half of a second at most, too quickly for Strange to execute the "Prep time" time travel). My opponent may make the claim that if Sentry were to move at lightspeed, he would be unable to locate Goku; however, this is not the case, as Sentry could telepathically locate him and then kill him. Even if Goku were somehow capable of detecting and combating Sentry, he would have to focus on him at least temporarily or succumb to Sentry's myriad attacks: Energy, Telepathy, and brute force. Sentry need not even incapacitate Goku on his own; as long as Peter has time to "freeze" time on all but his own teammates, my team has a variety of ways to deal with Goku. For example, Nagato's "Human Path" could use the attack plan I outlined in R3; alternatively, Chirox could rob Goku of his speed [2] and leave the decelerated Goku to be slain by my team. Once this has occurred, Sentry and Peter could locate and slay the remainder of my opponent's team too quickly for them to react. This renders both my opponent's first and second tactics invalid.

SUMMARY: Sentry is capable of moving at least as fast as Goku, but likely far faster; furthermore, Goku cannot overwhelm this formidable opponent long enough to prevent Peter from drastically slowing time on Goku and his allies. Once this occurs, Goku's team is doomed, as nobody else on his team is capable of attaining the speed necessary to sufficiently combat my team.

================

I will end by thanking my opponent for the debate and the viewers for their time. When the voting period arrives, please vote PRO.

================

SOURCES:
[1] http://marvel.wikia.com...(Earth-616)#Powers
[2] http://biosector01.com...
Logical-Master

Con

I would also like to extend thanks to my opponent for allowing such a magnificent debate.

==============

First, in response to his position concerning sources, I was using that source in reference to the Daizenshuu. This is essentially a Dragon Ball Z Guidebook. I can provide actual scans (original Japanese) of the page that deals which stating Super Saiyan Goku's fighting power: http://4.bp.blogspot.com...

Second, the link I have provided contradicts PRO's source PRECISELY because Goku says nothing regarding instant transmission as being a technique which propels it's wielders into a pocket dimension (which is the basis of PRO's rendering of it being purely a quick travel technique). Therefore, the wikia page's claim is baseless conjecture at best.

==============================

TACTIC ONE CONT: "Leave it to Goku"
==============================

My opponent starts his rebuttal by insisting that Goku is not capable of moving at the speed of light. He bases this on the fact that Goku's battles are drawn with the background visible at Goku's speed. He insist that if Goku were capable of moving at lightspeed, the background would not be visible. However, I'd say that this proves nothing but the animators own limitations on what it means to travel at lightspeed. Not to mention that the animation would look less appealing if it were to be as PRO says it is. The most logical way to look at this is that we (THE VIEWERS) are seeing the fight in a way that we can comprehend (think of it like a slow motion camera recording a lightning bolt), whereas things in real time are much different.

As far as Sentry moving at several times lightspeed is concerned, the source dictates that this is in terms of interstellar travel. Upon pondering on interstellar travel, the meaning became clear. Sentry can only move so quickly without having built up enough speed. For example, the typical car may be registered as being able to move at 120 mph, but that doesn't mean it can do so instantly; the average car would have to take the time to build up speed on a straight path before it could reach it's maximum. When added by the fact that Sentry was practically even with Hulk in terms of strength/speed during their battle in the World War Hulk arc (links shall be provided in the comment section momentarily), it makes plenty of sense as to why PRO's own source list the man as being restricted to the speed of sound on earth. It's no wonder he can travel from earth to the sun within a few seconds. He has 93 milllion miles on a straight path to work with. His only hope of hitting his top speed during this battle would be to fly to the sun and then fly back to the exact point where his target (Goku) remained. However, many things can happen in a few seconds during this battle and it's already been agreed that instant transmission has no such limitation. By the time Sentry gets back, PRO's whole time stopping strategy will have resulted in failure, not to mention Goku can just use instant transmission to dodge, assuming the superman clone is faster than Goku is without his technique.

As for Goku's own speed and mental limitations, if you'd refer back to the first video provided in the previous round, you shall be able to realize that Goku showed himself well capable of processing the speeds at which he was moving during instant transmission. I need not prove Goku's speed without his transmission technique, given that Goku is clearly shown capable of supplementing his speed with that technique. After all, he was using it for combat purposes against SOMEONE ELSE who was using the same technique. The slow motion scene with the red background image revolving around Goku barely escaping Cooler, only to have his leg grabbed says it all in terms of his awareness level. As stated in a prior round, instant transmission is well over 3 million times faster than light. For Goku to be able to process such a speed in his head as well as counter someone else moving at a speed indicates a great deal about his own mental processing power. Incidentally, the scene with Goku moving in slow motion proves that instant transmission does not consist of one entering a pocket dimension, but that it's rather pure speed at work. EVEN IF Sentry could start out at lightspeed movement, this is still vastly inferior to instant transmission and Goku's mental processing speed would still pose a problem (as PRO admits that Sentry would have to telepathically locate Goku before blitzing him at his fastest).

Finally, Nagato and anyone else in the Naruto universe cannot move faster than light nor are they capable of comprehending anything faster than light (again, both which I've shown Goku to be more than capable of), thus Nagato's powers would be utterly useless.

SUMMARY: Sentry does not have the space to build up to light speed movement (hence is restricted to far lower speeds) and Peter Petreli would be vanquished long before he could fly to the sun and back. Furthermore, Goku's neural function is capable of processing the speed of instant transmission, as we see in my first video in the previous round during his encounter with someone else who could use the technique. This clearly puts his neural functioning astronomically above Mr. Petreli's.

=============================
TACTIC NUMBER TWO: BUILT IN PREP TIME:
=============================

I would like to make one adjustment to this alternate strategy in dealing with Team PRO.

ADJUSTMENT: I did say that Balthier was equipped with the best armor in Final Fantasy XII. I say the best armor in the Mirror Mail: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com...

The mirror mail automatically enables the spell reflect on whoever wields it. Thus, Goku could start by using instant transmission to get to another dimension (the hyperbolic time chamber probably) as soon as the battle began. Upon Mr. Petrelis using his time stop technique, it would automatically bounce off balthier and back to him, no different than the effects of the spell known as "stopga" would. Mr. Petreli shall be infinitely be trapped in time. Balthier shall then proceed to cast Esunaga, hence removing status ailments on all of his teammates (all teammates being frozen in time). Goku shall arrive back in the dimension with the combat zone and hold off Sentry in the manner I've argued. The rest of this strategy shall proceed precisely in accordance to what I've already dictated in Tactic Number Two during prior rounds.

I now stand ready for the instigators final round and wish him the best of luck.
Debate Round No. 4
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper

Pro

I will begin by thanking LM for an amazing debate.

============

Now I will address my opponent's sources in the comments section.

Sentry's statement (seventh link down) "Good, just once more" implies that he was allowing Hulk to hit him, perhaps to build up anger or reacquaint himself with the pain of comment. This statement, though conjecture, is supported by repeated examples of Sentry moving much faster than Hulk, such as when he caught a bullet (see Marvel Wikia page on Sentry).

============

Now I will refute Tactic One.

TACTIC ONE:

Though I acknowledge that Sentry must build speed to reach "several times lightspeed" and that none of my team members besides Peter and Sentry are capable of reaching Goku's speed, my opponent has overlooked the fact that, in the Sentry source earlier provided, the article specifies that Sentry's Earth speed has been observed as five miles per second, or orbital speed. Furthermore, my opponent has also overlooked an important aspect of Peter's abilities: Regeneration. Another human with Peter's same regenerative powers has displayed the capability to retain full consciousness while having the top of their skull removed [1], an otherwise fatal injury [2]. Since the current medical consensus is that a severed head is alive for about 13 seconds after decapitation [3], and I have already proven that Peter's regeneration allows him to stay conscious during otherwise fatal injury, it can be reasoned that even after having his head punched off by Goku, Peter would be able to drastically slow time and regenerate, allowing his teammates to lay waste to Goku.

As to Goku's actual speed contrasting with dramatic devices, my opponent cannot attempt to counter my evidence by blaming it on "the animators' own limitations" without calling into question all evidence regarding DBZ, and by that extent all material that contains any technical limitations; in essence, my opponent is trying to both use his evidence to support his arguments and contradicting it to refute mine. Also, if the fight were to take place at lightspeed, the background would be invisible regardless of any "slow-motion" effects, as if the combatants are faster than light, then slowing their movement to a speed we can comprehend would slow light as well. Since the impact of Goku's attacks is heard immediately as they land (see CON's "Return of Cooler movie video" 2:00-2:10), it can be reasoned that Goku is moving at a speed no greater than that of sound. Since this is the same as Sentry's Earth speed sans acceleration, if not less than it, it can be reasoned that Sentry would be able to defend Peter from Goku's assault. However, whether Sentry is as fast as Goku or not is irrelevant; I have already proven that even if Goku were to attempt to decapitate Peter, he would still be able to "freeze" time. "Freeze" is not really the proper term with which to describe Peter's time manipulation; this issue is addressed below.

SUMMARY: Though Goku is very fast, it is still viable that the Sentry could counter him; furthermore, whether Goku can punch off Peter's head or not is irrelevant, as Peter's regeneration allows him to survive. Furthermore, my opponent cannot say that Goku is faster than the evidence shows him to be without contradicting his own evidence.

=============

As to Balthier's Mirror Mail, the Reflect effect only protects against magic directed against the wearer[4]. However, Peter's "time-stopping" does not directly affect certain individuals or objects; to the contrary, it is essentially a form of selective hyper-acceleration [5]. This statement is supported by the ability of those with Enhanced Speed to function normally when time is "frozen" [see 5]. Time is not actually "frozen", it just appears that way to the user of the ability. My opponent has also failed to prove any correlation between Stopga and Peter's ability other than their seemingly similar effects; since I have proven that Peter's "time-stopping" is really selective hyperacceleration, this statement is invalid. Lastly, since Peter's time manipulation is more of a self-directed effect that he is using on himself and allies rather than a status effect designed to hinder my opponent's team, Goku's teleportation out of the arena would only serve to rob him of the chance to attack Peter, an attack that I have proven irrelevant.

SUMMARY: Balthier's mirror mail is only effective against magic directed towards him. Peter's time manipulation is self-directed, as well as not being magic.

================

Regarding Instant Transmission and the Pocket Dimension: My opponent claims that there is no evidence for this "Pocket Dimension"; however, the article I cited specified that Movie 8 is the source for the "Pocket Dimension". Since my opponent cannot call into question the canonicity of the movies without challenging his own evidence, this statement still stands.

==============

CONCLUSION: My opponent's only hope of victory in this debate is to stop Peter from hyperaccelerating. Due to the fact that Peter is capable of drastically accelerating his neural functions with Enhanced Speed, Goku would have to sense Peter's location, Instant Transmit to him, AND somehow keep him from hyperaccelerating within a fraction of a second. Since nothing short of complete obliteration would prevent Peter from hyperaccelerating himself and his allies, PRO wins, as Goku's attacks that are capable of causing complete bodily obliteration either violate the God-class limitations or require concentration. Since any short amount of concentration would allow Peter the time to Hyperaccelerate and Sentry the time to attack Goku, CON has no hope of preventing Hyperacceleration; thus, there is no way for CON to win the battle.

==============

Now I will weigh the debate.

COMBAT/CONVINCING ARGUMENTS
Since I have proven that both of my opponent's tactics are rendered irrelevant by Peter's hyperacceleration, neither of my opponent's tactics stand. Since CON's team has no way to accelerate itself to Peter's hyperaccelerated speed quickly enough to defend itself, CON's team lacks any capacity to combat my team and thus loses.

SOURCES:
My opponent and I have each utilized a plethora of sources. Due to our equal sourcing and the weight of the 2-point Source vote, I move that viewers cast the Source vote as a supplement for the Argument vote and ask that LM either affirm or deny this motion before viewers act accordingly.

CONDUCT: Due to our equally civil conduct, I move to include the conduct vote with the Sources and Arguments and once again ask that LM either confirm or deny this motion.

SPELLING/GRAMMAR: I will include below some examples of spelling/grammar errors on LM's part:

R1: "(equipped with his ultimate nullifier ray" (forgot parentheses)

R2: "Petreli" (forgot the second L multiple times throughout the debate)
"Aiezen" (extra E)
"Sentry,," (double comma)
"strength's" (misused apostrophe)

R3: "Furthermore, we've seen it used as a combat technique when he fought Cooler (first video: 1:44 and on) )." (extra parentheses)
"Take for instance" (no commas around "for instance")
"teh confines of midgar" ("teh")

R4: "propels it's wielders" (misuses apostrophe)
"Sentry can only move so quickly without having built up enough speed." (misuses "without")

==========

I will end by thanking LM for an amazing debate and the viewers for their time. Please vote PRO.

==========

SOURCES:

[1] http://heroeswiki.com...
[2] http://heroeswiki.com... (see: "...killed Sue Landers BY removing the top of her skull...")
[3] http://europeanhistory.about.com...
[4] http://finalfantasy.wikia.com...(Status)
[5] http://heroeswiki.com...
Logical-Master

Con

===============

RE: Evidence in comment section.

PRO postulates that the seventh link in my span of links concerning "Hulk vs Sentry" indicates that Sentry was attempting to build up the Hulk's anger or reacquaint hiself with the "pain of comment". This is declared to suggest that the Sentry wasn't fighting to the best of his ability. However, this statement can be explained by a later link in the series of links I provided: http://i118.photobucket.com...

Sentry was in awe since he had never had the opportunity to "cut loose" up until this point. As for Sentry moving faster than Hulk and catching a bullet, the Hulk is well capable of moving at Sentry's base speed (which is far below light) seeing as how sources list him as being as fast as Thor (who has performed the same feats): http://en.wikipedia.org... .

Nevertheless, the fact that the Sentry could at best hold his own against the Hulk rather than move circles around him indicates my points regarding the Sentry's speed to be correct.

==========================
TACTIC ONE CONT: "Leave it to Goku" |
==========================

I haven't overlooked Sentry's speed (five miles per second). I've simply insisting that is nothing in comparison to Goku's instant transmission. Even if we were to say that it has the same max/minimum speed restrictions as Sentry (in other words, over 3,000,000x light at it's "max speed"), it's still well above Sentry at his max (who takes several seconds just to reach the Sun), hence indicating that Goku is faster still. Being that this is the case, there is no doubt that Goku could reach Mr. Petreli before Sentry (who moves on par with a slow lummox like the Hulk while on earth) could even attempt to react.

As for regeneration, this is something I am also aware of. I agree that Peter could regenerate from his head having been removed. However, there is just one thing my opponent is forgetting: Without a head, Peter Petreli cannot think! If Peter Petreli cannot think, he can't use his power. This is nothing like merely having the top of the skull remove; this is his whole head. His argument also hinges on Peter's head being intact. However, while being punched by someone as strong as Goku, it would at very least explode. If not, adding Ki to his punch would do the job.

While Peter was regenerating, Goku could finish the job in the fashion I mentioned and then simply launch his remains out of the ring with Sentry instead of merely Sentry. As we see in the film Cooler's Revenge, Goku was able to launch the powerful alien from earth all the way to the Sun via energy blast. Although it's possible that Mr Petreli would survive while in the sun, he'd never be able to regenerate back to a usable body state given the intense heat as well as the voluminous gravitational pull

As for Goku's actual speed, he first states that I cannot attempt to counter his evidence (disregarding the writer's comprehension of light speed travel) without disregarding my own. In response, I'd say that I could easily do that granted that my case hinges primarily off of the numerical data supplied in DBZ. Even if the animation is misleading, we can still conclude that my assessments regarding both Goku's speed and senses (divide his power level of 150,000,000+ by the power level of an ordinary human, which was stated as 5, given Raditz's power evel calculation of the farmer---and we know how much greater his sense are) correct. Furthermore, the writers not having a solid grasp of real world lightspeed movement or showing an inaccurate representation of it is completely acceptable granted that the DBZ universe clearly follows a different set of physics (such as Piccolo destroying the moon without their being any adverse effects on the earth's oceans or the amount of energy found in earthlings outputting the energy found in the sun or Piccolo creating matter when giving Gohan new clothes).

As for his comments concerning my explanation of fights not being shown in real time for the sake of the audience, I can cross apply my elaboration of my previous points here (different set of physics, ergo different rules). I'd also like to mention that we're actually able to see Sentry as he is flying at his fastest towards the sun. We're able to see the Flash and Superman as they race to determine who the world's fastest man is. All who have been stated to be light speeders. What I'm saying has plenty of precedent in fiction.

Regarding the impact of Goku's attacks being heard as they land, this assumes that the effects of the attacks as well as the sounds are as fast as the fighters themselves. However, if we are to make assumptions, I could just as easily assume that the two were moving so fast that the sound as well as the visible effects of the attacks were vastly delayed after each actual blow. What's more, such instances can be observed by the after image technique which had existed all the way back during dragon ball, thus making my assumption all the more likely.

SUMMARY: Regeneration is pointless if Sentry is still unable to "will" time hyper accelerated via thought (which the brain would be needed to do).

===============
TACTIC NUMBER TWO: BUILT IN PREP TIME adjustment:
===============

Given PRO's explanation regarding hyper acceleration, I shall concede my adjustment (or rather additional tactic, as I had phrased in the comment section) and stick to the two tactics which I've held onto since the 2nd round (which relies on whether or not you agree that Goku is fast enough to get to Mr. Petreli and prevent him form using his powers of hyper acceleration)

==================================
RE: "Regarding Instant Transmission and the Pocket Dimension ... "

There is no point in the 8th DBZ film where a pocket dimension is even mentioned, much less used to describe the workings of instant transmission. Nevertheless, I quickly decided to skim through the film to confirm this. Having skimmed the whole film, I came across one particular scene that stuck out:

Go to 4:39 on the video to the rght: This is probably where the pocket dimension rumor came from. However, not only is there no reference to a pocket dimension, but we clearly see Goku speeding across the galaxy (hence seeing him pass planets) as well as him yet again comprehending the speed at which instant transmission goes. Thus, even movie 8 PROVES that Goku instant transmission is pure speed. In the few other instances of the film where instant transmission is used, GOku doesn't described the technique, much less are we given as much detail of the technique as we were in the sole instance I am discussing.
================================

CONCLUSION: As PRO noted the entire debate came down to me proving whether or not Goku was fast enough to stop Mr. Petreli from hyper accelerating to a rate which would secure his team the victory. Not only did I prove that Goku could reach Mr. Petreli before he was even aware that the battle had begun, but that he is also much faster than Sentry. PRO's final defense on this issue was to argue that Mr. Petreli's healing factor would steer him the victory, but what he forgot to take into consideration was that getting your head knocked offed vastly differed from getting the top of the skull skimmed away and that Goku's superhuman strength alone could easily decimate Petreli's head (brain and everything completely). He argues that Goku using additional ki would take concentration, but we're talking about a guy who can destroy a planet with a single blast. It wouldn't take any real concentration to summon up enough ki to incinerate a human head.

------------------------------------

Convincing Arguments: See my conclusion
Sources: I agree with PRO's assessment.
Conduct: Same
S/G: Same
Debate Round No. 5
29 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by DebateBehemoth 5 years ago
DebateBehemoth
May I say no Dbz character is light speed on hypersonic they reach light speed via instant transmission
and you need to lock on a ki lock to do so but yet I am not sure about being able to transmit as far as the gokus eyes can see
Posted by HazelMystic 7 years ago
HazelMystic
No grudge; I just found it funny. I hope to someday see Dark Phoenix in one of these debates. She's Mariah Carrey fierce.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
EDIT: I criticized the Daizenshuu in the comment section of our debate . . .
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
lol dude. You got a grudge or something?

1) I criticized the daizenshuu in our debate because you wouldn't allow the anime as a source. I don't see it as any more credible. Go back and read my actual posts in the comment section and less serious business plox.

2) I'm not as interested in seeking the "truth" as I am having a good time. :)
Posted by HazelMystic 7 years ago
HazelMystic
I find it hilarious that Logical Master would cite the Daizenshuu as a source in his debate when he so openly criticized it before. Interesting character selection though...
Posted by ExplodingNoob 7 years ago
ExplodingNoob
hahaha nerd extreme I LOVE IT! wish i payed attention to DBZ still i always loved it as a kid haha
Posted by GeorgeCarlinWorshipper 7 years ago
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper
I also want to thank you for the debate. It was my most challenging one yet, and I look forward to debating with you again in the future.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
In terms of the Cooler movie, I think it's referring to the scene with the red/black background and am pretty sure I insinuated it to be a dramatic representation of how quickly the two were moving (though I don't distinctly rememeber). I found the scene in the Broly film (luckily. :D) and have addressed it during the debate.

In any case, thanks for the debate (didn't have the space to say that during the round). Twas fun. I agree with your assessment (except of course the convincing arguments section). Well actually, I don't have the time to check for any possible spelling/grammar errors, so I conceded and gave you the point for it anyway.
Posted by GeorgeCarlinWorshipper 7 years ago
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper
To save you some time, the article mentions when in the movie it's used: http://dragonball.wikia.com...

It was also in the Cooler movie, apparently.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
lol, making me watch the whole Broly movie to check for mentions of a pocket dimension. Hopefully, I can get it done before the time limit.
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