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Con (against)
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Ultimate Team War - High Altitude

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/20/2011 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,030 times Debate No: 14865
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (20)
Votes (2)




This is Ultimate Team War. Each debater must assemble a team of five characters, and the teams will then fight to the death(ish). Since we cannot have an actual real-life battle, each debater will explain why their team is superior during this debate.

However, it will take place in the sky.

Team leader: One of the debaters here, i.e. me or my opponent
Team member: One of the five chosen warriors.
Team Pro: My team.
Team Con: My opponent's team.

1. The fight is to occur in mid-air. The atmosphere is the exact same as Earth's. The temperature is 90 degrees Farenheit, with clear skies and no oncoming weather conditions. The time is noon, with the Sun directly overhead. The ground is empty; the composition of the ground is irrelevant to this debate.
2. The furthest bounds make essentially a rectangular prisim in the air, one kilometer by one kilometer wide and five kilometers high, directly above the ground. Any team member who has any part of their body leave these bounds or touch the ground is immediately disqualified.
3. There will be no demi-god characters that are capable of travelling at ridiculous speeds, shattering almost any barriers in their way sustaining little damage to themselves, and wiping out anything, like Superman or Sentry, or anything more powerful than that. Nor will therebe any unlimited powers thatcannot be resisted.If you're in doubt, just ask.
4. Other illegal powers include time travel and mind control (taking over an opposing character).
5. Any team member must be either real or, if fictional, verifiably existent. No characters may be made up for the purpose of this debate.
6. In the case of a fictional character, the team member's abilities must be according to a specific canon chosen by the team leader.
7. Every character has only the equipment that they generally have in the specified canon, or any equipment they would use in air combat.
8. Team members are absolutely loyal to the team leader. All team members are still subjected to their own emotions, however.
9. The team leader may not directly participate in the competition, but may only facilitate. The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team.
10. Neither team can have a member in common. If one team leader chooses a team member, the other team cannot have that character.
11. A team wins when all members of an opposing team are dead, unconscious, or essentially unusable. Characters who cannot be dead, unconscious, or unusable are not allowed.
12. Neither debater may create new arguments and plans after Round 3; they may only create new counter-arguments and clarify old arguments. In Round 5, CON may not produce new counter-arguments, except to counter PRO's new counter-arguments or clarifications.
13. The winning team automatically receives Arguments and Sources. Conduct, in addition to regular things, goes to the person who follows the rules most effectively. Please remember this rule.

Positions are to be posted using an (x,y,z) format, in meters. (0,0,0), for example, is the bottom left corner of the PRO side, extending to (1000,1000,5000), the top right corner of the CON side. The two sides are split at the plane (y = 500).

Round 1: Rule specifications; PRO has informed Maikuru of his five chosen team members, as well as their locations. CON chooses five team members as well, and informs Maikuru. If there are no matches in team members, CON posts those five team members, as well as their locations. Otherwise, he chooses a substitute team member.

Round 2: PRO unveils his five team members and their positions, then proceeds to explain how his team would win. CON then responds with a counter-strategy.

Round 3, 4, 5: Arguments and rebuttals. No new plans may be made after Round 3. CON may not present any new arguments during round 5, since PRO has no chance to rebut them.

Oh, and thanks to MTGandP for coming up with the entire concept of Ultimate Team War, and Maikuru for helping to mediate this debate!


Having previously lost to mongeese in a non-rule-breaking debate, I have assembled a small army. I gather from "clear skies and no oncoming weather conditions" that the wind speed is neglible and there are no clouds (this is very important for my strategy). I will first name all my characters, and their starting positions. Note that because one of the characters is not initially visible (for reasons which I will describe) I shall not list his position.

My team:
1. Optimus Prime
2. Kevin 11 (Levin)
3. Count Dracula
4. Son Goku
5. Zapotec

My positions are as follows: Optimus Prime is in robot configuration, centered at (500,900,4000). Kevin 11 is flying on Zapotec, having absorbed some of his electric power. Count Dracula is not visible, but you note a strange mist has appeared extending from (350,500,3500) to (650,700,4000), obscuring half of Optimus Prime. Son Goku is flying in the mist, only just visible at he is centered on (500,498,3800). Zapotec is above the mist, flying at (500,630,4100).

I look forward to hearing your team and strategy.
Debate Round No. 1


Thank you, larz, for accepting this debate.

My opponent has clarified that Zapotec is actually supposed to be Zapdos; spell-check forced the change.

I would like to point out to my opponent that Optimus Prime doesn't seem to be capable of flight. Goku also seems to have to use significant energy in flight; how long can he stay up? I also question Zapdos' ability to maintain such a high altitude; Charizard, another Pokémon with great flying ability, cannot fly higher than 1600 meters.

Team Member 1: Harry Potter
He's the Boy Who Lived and the Chosen One. He's also a really powerful and experienced Auror. To this fight, he brings his trusted phoenix-core wand and a Firebolt.

Team Member 2: Mewtwo
It was created by a scientist after years of horrific gene splicing and DNA engineering experiments. Its DNA is almost the same as Mew's. However, its size and disposition are vastly different. Because its battle abilities were raised to the ultimate level, it thinks only of defeating its foes. It usually remains motionless to conserve energy, so that it may unleash its full power in battle. Its cold, glowing eyes strike fear into its enemy.

Team Member 3: Charizard
Charizard flies about in search of strong opponents. Its wings can carry this Pokémon close to an altitude of 4,600 feet. It blows out fire at very high temperatures. However, it will never torch a weaker foe.'s_Charizard

Team Member 4: Dark Magician
The ultimate wizard in terms of attack and defense.

Team Member 5: Argorok
He's a giant armored dragon that breathes fire.

At the start of the battle, Mewtwo shields himself with a Barrier. Harry casts a Disillusionment Charm on himself, Mewtwo, and Charizard, making them invisible. Mewtwo quickly accelerates upward with Argorok.

The Dark Magician uses the magical power of the Mystic Box, swapping places with and slaying Kevin 11. He then proceeds to use a Dark Magic Attack on Zapdos to shatter it. Should Zapdos try to attack the Dark Magician, an Afterworld Warp will redirect the attack towards Goku. After destroying Zapdos, he attacks Goku with the same attack.

Mewtwo's first target is Optimus Prime. Concentrating his psychic power, he wrenches Prime apart, utterly destroying him. He then uses Psychic on Son Goku, preventing Goku from moving. With this control Mewtwo sends Goku colliding into the ground, defeating him.

Argorok flies up towards the mist, then unleashes his fiery breath. The intermolecular bonds holding the mist in place are broken by the increase in heat, and Count Dracula is defeated. He then aids in the fight in Zapdos, Goku, or Optimus Prime, as the case may be.

Harry arrives on his Firebolt invisibly. Should Goku still be alive, Harry will kill him with the lethal Killing Curse. He can also assist Argorok in destroying Count Dracula with a powerful Fiendfyre. The cursed fire can move on to consume Goku, then Optimus Prime, then Zapdos and Kevin 11.

The invisible Charizard will first commit himself to melting Optimus Prime with Flamethrower, should Mewtwo fail in this task. He will then use his invisibility to great advantage by engaging Zapdos, or Kevin 11, should he still exist. After burning the two of them, he can then move on to Goku, attacking with fire, mostly distracting Goku as somebody else ultimately brings him down. As he cannot fly higher than 1600 meters, he cannot do any of these things until somebody comes low enough to be attacked.

That should do it for now; I look forward to your arguments, larz.


Optimus Prime can indeed fly. He was given flight parts by Jetfire, which were installed by Jolt. For your information, Zapotec has no intention of maintaining that altitude.

I'd like to point out that Dark Magician does not have a Mystic Box. In the Yu-Gi-Oh cartoon and game, Mystic Box was a separate card, not part of the Dark Magician's repertoire. It follows that Dark Magician cannot use Mystic Box unless one is made available to him. As my opponent neglected to specifically give his Dark Magician a Mystic Box, Kevin 11 is safe.

I'd also like to point out that Mewtwo is incapable of flight.

Excellent. Now on to my strategy. Bear in mind that all of your units are about 3km beneath me.

At the start of the battle, Dracula summons a vast swarm of bats to attack Harry Potter. Being undead, the bats are able to maintain the high altitude as they do not need to breathe (the major reason bats cannot fly very high is their small lungs - even so, bats do fly at about 900m above ground level). The bats are ordered to distract Harry from his spellcasting and snap his wand.

At the same time, Zaptec will swoop down from high up to attack Mewtwo. While Mewtwo is concentrating on Optimus Prime (who, as a robot, is unaffected by Psychic attacks), Zaptec swoops at the speed of lightning and pierces him with his beak through the chest. Kevin then leaps off Zaptec and uses his new powers like an electromagnet, flying towards the nearest metal (Dark Magician's armor). The armor electrocutes the dark magician, and Kevin absorbs the magician's dark power, allowing him to fly. Zaptec and Kevin will then move to finish off the distracted Harry Potter.

Meanwhile, Argorok flies up towards the mist, right into Goku's signature Kamehameha attack. The dragon is annihilated. If Goku's attack fails, Goku will keep trying again, safe in the knowledge that Dracula is no longer in the mist (he is, in fact, fleeing from the dragon's terrible sight, on the far side of the midst, towards Optimus Prime). If Goku cannot kill Argorok, Optimus will help.

Charizard will see Mewtwo fail at his task and will try to use his flamethrower. Unfortunately, this attack has a range well short of the distance between him and Optimus. I'm guessing that instead he will aim at Zaptec or Kevin. No matter who he chooses, Optimus' long range missile will kill him moments later. If he chooses Zaptec, Zaptec uses his speed to dodge the attack, making it hit Harry instead. If he chooses Kevin, Kevin will be hit alongside Dark Magician, but as Dracula has already turned everyone on my team into vampires, only Dark Magician will be killed.

In the highly unlikely event that a horde of hundreds of bats do not incapacitate Harry Potter, Goku will Kamehameha him, and Zaptec will finish him off soon after. Then Zaptec will attack Mewtwo, largely as a distraction while Kevin destroys the Dark Magician, before either Goku or Optimus Prime launches an attack from high up.

With your entire team annihilated, I look forward to hearing your concession of defeat.
Debate Round No. 2


Thank you, larz, for your response.

My opponent's first contention is that the Dark Magician lacks the Mystic Box. However, that is only in the card game. In the Millennium Arc, it was revealed that outside of the card game, the Dark Magician has access to his spells without the use of cards (which makes sense). He was able to use many magical powers extremely similar to cards, suggesting that the Dark Magician's magic was translated into Spell Cards for the card game. Dark Magician Girl was even able to conjure Magical Hats five thousand years before the card game ever existed. Therefore, it would make perfect sense if the Dark Magician can use the Mystic Box.

My opponent then claims that Mewtwo is incapable of flight, and that he cannot destroy Optimus Prime. This video (, 3:35 - 5:00) will prove him wrong on the first account; numerous robotic arms and pieces of machinery were destroyed. He seems to be more effective against machinery than living beings. Mewtwo also floats through a good chunk of the first movie, and even flies off at the very end while levitating numerous other Pokémon with him (

Harry is now faced with a team of bats. The bats have to travel over 3000 meters to reach Harry, giving him plenty of time to cast a deadly Fiendfyre spell. The cursed fire will consume the flock of bats and destroy them; Dumbledore used magical fire to great effect against the undead Inferi. They won't be distracting Harry very much.

Now, as for Zapdos dive-bombing Mewtwo, Zapdos cannot travel at the speed of lightning; he merely uses lightning in his attacks. That said, with all of the speed Zapdos can gather, Mewtwo can simply block with the Barrier that he created or simply get out of the way as Zapdos is unable to stop itself, crashing into the ground. Add the fact that Mewtwo is currently invisible, and Zapdos has to miss. Kevin 11 should already be eliminated by Mystic Box, but if he lives, Mewtwo will grab him with his psychic powers and send him crashing to the ground, defeated. It is unlikely that Zapdos will be able to decelerate from its fall, as gravity is now fighting against rather than for it; if it can survive, it will have used up much energy, allowing Charizard to finish it off with a single Flamethrower.

If Kevin 11 ever careens toward the Dark Magician (which is physically impossible, as one cannot jump off of a bird that is accelerating downwards due to gravity), he will be met with a Dark Magic Attack to the face, shattering him to numerous tiny pieces.

Should Argorok be hit by a Kamehameha, he would not be annihilated; his body is extremely sturdy, with the only weak spot being the eye on his back, protected by a powerful coat of armor. Argorok will be able to engage Goku for well long enough for Mewtwo to sneak in from behind invisibly and send him to his doom with Psychic. Optimus would indeed speed up the fight, if he could make it, but Mewtwo took care of Optimus long before Argorok arrived.

My opponent mentions that Dracula is not in the mist, suggesting that Dracula is not the mist. This suggests that Dracula is currently in his default vampire form, which means that he plummets to his death with no levitational powers.

Charizard will be able to block Optimus' missles with Flamethrower; he'd even be able to shrug a few rogue missles off. Optimus was, however, the second of my opponent's team members to be eliminated, so this shouldn't matter much. He then engages Zapdos. Harry will not be so dumb as to go behind Zapdos so that Charizard would hit him; he is currently invisibly hunting down Goku to eliminate him with Avada Kedavra, although a silent Arresto Momentum on Zapdos to prevent dodging wouldn't hurt. The Dark Magician never let Kevin 11 actually get near him, making Kevin a nice target for Flamethrower. With Kevin falling to his death, the Dark Magician and Charizard gang up on and destroy Zapdos.

My opponent claims that Count Dracula has turned his entire team into vampires. However, this would involve all of them drinking his blood [1], a timely process that would leave his team easily exposed to my attacks. Even then, Flamethrower will be damaging enough to burn a vampire into the inability to fight, and vampires lack immunity to magic and psychic powers. There's also the fact that he'd have to be in vampire form, which would result in him falling to his death.

Harry will handle the horde of bats without fail. Invisible, he will be able to dodge all of Goku's attacks and kill him with the Killing Curse, then use Descendo silently to force Zapdos and Kevin 11 (should either still be alive) downwards until they hit the ground, eliminated. Optimus Prime's attacks can all be blocked by Protego; Optimus himself can be destroyed to either Repulso or Fiendfyre. Dracula can be eliminated by Fiendfyre or forced down by Descendo. Quite simply, an invisible Harry Potter can take down my opponent's entire team.

As you can see, I am far from admitting defeat. It's your move, larz; good luck.



While I am disappointed at not hearing an immediate defeat concession, I'd like to thank my opponent for his futile efforts.

First, I'd like to point out that the Millennium Arc takes place in the Memory World, which is an alternate reality ( While I agree the Dark Magician may have certain abilities in the Memory World, this does not translate into having powers in our world. Thus, Dark Magician cannot use Mystic box.

Second, on Mewtwo's flight powers, bulbapedia says that he can levitate. Levitation is different from flight because, when levitating, one cannot move in any direction except up or down. I'd also like to point out that psychic type pokemon deal only half damage to steel type pokemon, and I think it is fair to apply the same test to this engagement. Optimus is the most powerful Autobot and probably the most powerful Transformer, so I'm pretty sure a psychic blast would have little effect (although I could understand Mewtwo annihilating robots maybe a quarter of his strength).

Third, the bats need not fly 3km. "Summoning" for Dracula is akin to a conjuration. It is possible for this conjuration to happen at a location other than where he presently is. In this case he makes it happen on Potter's broomstick. Even if I'm wrong, though (which I'm not), the bats need only fly 100m, up from 900m - and indeed, these undead bats regularly fly wherever they feel like, which today happens to be at Harry's exact altitude. Harry would barely have time to cast an invisibility spell. I should add that Fiendfire is a really difficult spell to cast, practically impossible while one is heavily distracted and a whole bunch of bats are groping at one's wand. Even if activated, the undead bats skin would burn off, but the skeletons would not stop their relentless attack.

Fourth, Mewtwo's barrier is only a first-level (no experience required) ability that typically has no effect against legendary pokemon. Getting out of the way is near impossible given the speed we're talking about and the fact that Zapdos can change direction much faster than Mewtwo using his agile wings. Mewtwo would not be invisible because of the bats preventing Harry from spell-casting. Put it all together, and Zapdos cannot miss! Even if he does, though, while his deceleration may be poor, he simply changes direction and kills Charizard instead (your army is in very close quarters). Then Mewtwo would be his next target and Kevin fights as normal. However, there is no need for that contingency because a miss is downright impossible for Zapdos!

Kevin 11 will not jump off Zapdos during the fall, but after Zapdos has made his first kill (shouldn't take too long). There is no problem with him getting off then. To fly to the Dark Magician should take about four seconds (distance of about 40m, electric power of about 50,000 volts). To do a Dark Magic Attack, Dark Magician must aim his staff (1 second), yell "Dark Magic Attack!" (3 seconds) and then wait 2 seconds for a gem on the end of his staff to glow fully. Even if Dark Magician had perfect reflexes, Kevin will have destroyed him first.

Sixth, Kamehameha has been known to destroy many strong foes. Even if the dragon survives it, though, Goku will simply use Instant Transmission to dodge Argorok's attack. Eventually, five or six Kamehameha blasts later (and possibly help from Optimus), the dragon will succumb. I should also note that Dracula does in fact have the power of flight ( - see the "Powers" entry for "Bram Stoker").

Seventh, even if Optimus' missile is destroyed, remember that Kevin now has the powers of the Dark Magician, and will Dark Magic Attack charizard momentarily also. By the way, all of my team drank Dracula's blood during the definitely-not-premature victory feast that my team held while your team was still assembling (it took hours for them to appear on my screen after my team had assembled). I'd also like to point out that the un-natural speed of vampires will allow Kevin to dodge Charizard's attack easily.

So basically, my opponent's whole strategy relies on Harry Potter. With no parental love to save him and a huge swarm of bats preventing his actions, it looks like there is nothing my opponent can do.

Veni. Vidi. Vici.
Debate Round No. 3


Thank you, larz, for your rather speedy response, although you really shouldn't expect me to throw in the towel. That wouldn't be any fun.

While the Millennium World and the real world are not quite the same thing, the events in the Millennium World were based on the events that had happened in Egypt. It is a canon fact that the Dark Magician is actually Mahad. Even in the "real world" of Yu-Gi-Oh!, Mahad was the Dark Magician, as evidenced by the Ceremonial Battle between Yami and Yugi. Add the fact that my source for the Dark Magician was Mahad's page, and not the Dark Magician card, and it is evident that I am using Mahad as the Dark Magician, with powers that were hidden in Spell Cards for the sake of a card game. This is no card game.

My opponent questions Mewtwo's flight; however, Mewtwo was capable of complete aerial control in the first movie [Video 1: 0:54 - 1:07]. He also questions Mewtwo's ability to destroy Optimus Prime. Sure, Psychic-type attacks deal half-damage in the video games, but the anime never made this distinction, and this resistance certainly doesn't seem to apply when Mewtwo is blowing up labs and gyms [Video 2: 0:52 - 1:00]. Mewtwo could easily destroy Optimus.

My opponent next claims that Count Dracula could conjure undead bats directly around Harry, or even very close to Harry. He offers no source for this power, inferring it from Dracula's ability to conjure mist and power over the dead. However, conjuring mist is quite different from conjuring dead bodies for possession (mist can be created from water vapor already in the air, while dead bodies are much more complex), and it's quite unlikely that Dracula can teleport these dead bodies anywhere he pleases. I can't even find any source that gives Dracula the power to conjure anything besides mist.

In any case, Harry's Fiendfyre will be very effective against Dracula's bats, as according to my opponent's own chart, fire is labelled as "fatal." The undead bats would inherit this weakness from their undead master, and be incinerated completely, skeleton and all. Fiendfyre may be a difficult spell, but Harry is an experienced Auror, and the bats won't be arriving soon enough to stop the curse from completion.

We now come to Zapdos' attack on Mewtwo. The bats take longer than my opponent thinks, so Mewtwo will be invisible. He also underestimates Barrier; while in the video games, it is a defense-raising move, in the anime, Mewtwo's Barrier completely nullified attacks against him. It is also rather effective against legendaries; Mewtwo and Mew even used the attack against each other, with great explosions abound! Zapdos would probably break his beak attacking the Barrier. Mewtwo is also more agile than supposed; just look at his movements in the video. If Zapdos ever changes direction to Charizard, Charizard will get out of the way as well. It's easier to change horizontal direction with no vertical speed than insanely high vertical speed, and Charizard can then use Flamethrower to greatly injure Zapdos (and kill Zapdos if it somehow a vampire). Zapdos would then be killed by the inevitable collision with the ground.

Kevin 11, as I pointed out, should have been eliminated by the Mystic Box. However, should he somehow find his way to the Dark Magician by surviving both Mystic Box and Zapdos' fall, he will respond with Magical Hats. Kevin will crash into an empty hat, then continue falling to his doom, as the Darm Magician remains unharmed.

In the fight between Argorok and Goku, Goku will not have time to fire any more than one Kamehameha, because after destroying Optimus, Mewtwo will envelop Goku with psychic energy and send him careening downward; resistance is futile.

My opponent claims that Count Dracula would successfully be able to fly, but according to Wikipedia, "the Count can defy gravity to a certain extent, being able to climb upside down vertical surfaces in a reptilian manner" [1]. If he really could fly, it would have been mentioned here.

When Charizard takes on Kevin 11, Kevin will have no magical powers, as the Dark Magician dodged. Kevin will fall to his death as Charizard merely avoids the attacks.

As for the "victory feast," that never happened. The team gets no time to prepare; they immediately appear at their locations ready to fight, not feast. The war starts instantaneously; there is no "loading time" as my opponent suggests. Harry had to cast his spells during the war, not before the war.

It seems that the only plan my opponent has is an overly exaggerated swarm of undead, fire-prone bats. If Harry defeats this swarm, he is in the clear by Rule 12.

In conclusion, here is how I see the war playing out:

1. Dark Magician conjures a Mystic Box around himself and Kevin 11, swapping places with and slaying Kevin.
2. Zapdos enters into a nose-dive in an attempt to kill Mewtwo.
3. Count Dracula conjures a swarm of undead bats who fly towards Harry Potter.
4. Harry makes himself, Mewtwo, and Charizard invisible with the Disillusionment Charm.
5. Mewtwo dodges Zapdos.
6. Charizard dodges Zapdos.
7. Zapdos crashes to the ground.
8. Mewtwo destroys Optimus Prime with the power of his mind.
9. Harry casts Fiendfyre, destroying the swarm of bats.
10. Argarok and Goku fight using fire and Kamehameha.
11. Mewtwo grabs Goku with Psychic and slams him to the ground.
12. Harry's Fiendfyre reaches Count Dracula, burning him and killing him.

In conclusion, it's a victory for Team MONG. Good luck with your next round, larz.



I think my opponent may have confused team MONG with team LARZ in his final statement. My opponent's strategy relies so much on Potter that with him incapacitated, there is nothing he can do.

My opponent has gotten nearly every step of his dream-world battle wrong.

1. Dark Magician conjures a Mystic Box
My opponent claims that since Mahad exists outside of the Memory World, he should be able to use his Memory World powers. That's a fallacy. Existing in two places does not necessarily mean that they are the same. Just because some kids are in both Narnia and the real world does not mean they have the same powers in each.

2. Zapdos enters into a nose-dive
3. Count Dracula conjures a swarm of undead bats
Happen simultaneously, in fact. Thanks for admitting Dracula can conjure, and is able to conjure undead bats. I take it that therefore I can ignore your earlier fallacious analysis that he cannot. Since he is conjuring, the bats need not travel before they reach Harry. You question Dracula's ability to teleport the bats, but this need not in fact take place. Conjuration means "bring into existence" according to Princeton University - it does not say "bring into existence within x meters of the spell-caster."

4. Harry makes himself, Mewtwo, and Charizard invisible
Nope. He tries to escape the horde of bats. Which, by the way, he'd be unable to do. Fiendfyre may be fatal to undead vampires, but not to undead bats. I fail to understand why this would be inherited. I should add that if the bats cannot be summoned for whatever reason, I have already told you what Zapdos and Goku will do instead, and you never responded to this. However, I agree there should be no need for this contingency, because your version of the battle is wrong.

5. Mewtwo dodges
OK, so he's not using a barrier now? If he's using a barrier, then Zapdos will still get it - the effect is nothing more than in the games, according to the official canon ( On the other hand, even though Mewtwo may be very fast (defense (reaction) speed 90) I should note that Zapdos is in fact faster (attack speed 125). Therefore dodging won't really help either. So Mewtwo doesn't dodge.

6. Charizard dodges
7. Zapdos crashes
Even if Zapdos does miss, he's still a kilometer in the sky. He can change direction in that time.

8. Mewtwo destroys Optimus Prime
My opponent says this without responding to my point about the relative power of Optimus Prime compared to some measly lab robots. Until he does so, Mewtwo will continue to concentrate his efforts in vain.

9. Harry casts Fiendfyre
If his wand has not snapped already, which I doubt.

10. Argarok and Goku fight using fire and Kamehameha
My opponent forgets to mention that Goku will win this battle. Especially with Optimus helping out.

11. Mewtwo grabs Goku with Psychic
Except that Mewtwo is stabbed in the heart. You forget to mention Kevin is presently killing the Dark Magician. Even if the Magician dodges, magnetism will still pull Kevin to the magician, not the Earth. Magical hats is a separate card too, so cannot be used along with Mystic Box.

From there the fight pretty much goes as I said. The only other thing my opponent even dares to rebut is Charizard can kill Kevin (along with Dark Magician) because Kevin would not be a vampire. Since he has just added a new rule (in round four of the debate, no less!) in order to save his army, I must call it unfair. However, your team will lose first as Mewtwo is already well on his way towards the ground and the moment any member of your team has fallen, you lose anyway. Therefore I still win.

If my opponent has any arguments left I'll be a little surprised.
Debate Round No. 4


Thank you, larz, for your response. My strategy relies rather little on Harry Potter, actually; the key thing he provides is fire, which Charizard and Argorok can also provide.

1. Dark Magician conjures a Mystic Box
My opponent claims that because in a card game, the Dark Magician requires a Spell Card to use Mystic Box, the Dark Magician cannot use the Mystic Box independently in "real life." He dismisses the Memory World example because it's a different world. The mentioning of the Ceremonial Battle was supposed to show that even in Egypt's canonical history outside of the Memory World, Mahad was the Dark Magician, and as Spell Cards were the creation of Pegasus, they were only required in the card game. Which scenario provides a more accurate representation of the Dark Magician's true abilities: the Pharoah's memories of Ancient Egypt, later established to be absolutely canon, or a card game based on the above? Again, this isn't a card game, so Mahad isn't limited by the card game's rules.

3. Count Dracula conjures a swarm of undead bats
I may have admitted that Dracula can conjure undead bats (although even that claim is unsourced), but I have always questioned the range of this power, for it makes no sense to me that Dracula can conjure any bats beyond his immediate proximity. Princeton University isn't even revelant; I have qualified all of my statements regarding Dracula with limitations on position so that a general definition cannot apply. Dracula has never been sourced to be able to conjure anything a significant distance away from himself, let alone a swarm of undead bats; this entire contention is baseless conjecture, if even that.

4, Harry makes himself, Mewtwo, and Charizard invisible.
My opponent claims that the undead bats would survive Fiendfyre, a cursed fire designed to destroy everything, with no real basis for this claim. I have pointed out that in Bram Stoker's novel "Dracula," the undead Count was extremely vulnerable to fire; it would follow that anything else undead in Stoker's canon would have the same weakness. As Count Dracula has this weakness, why wouldn't the bats? If Dracula wouldn't continue to fight as a skeleton, why would his bats?
As for Zapdos' and Goku's attacks, Zapdos' attack won't hit until well after this step, and Goku is contending with Argarok, so they don't come into play just yet.

5. Mewtwo dodges
Mewtwo has been using both a Barrier and dodging; he was shown capable of this in my movie clip. In the movie, Barrier raised Defense sharply, but it is notable that Mewtwo's Barrier was so powerful that it was able to negate most Pokémon's attacks completely; Zapdos would be no exception. My opponent then starts using video game statistics, which are irrelevant, as my chosen canon was the anime. I will entertain the argument anyway. Mewtwo's Speed is 130, not 90, and Zapdos' Speed is 100, not 125, so Mewtwo would actually outspeed Zapdos. Defense and Attack (and especially not Special Attack) do not decide attack speed; the Speed stat is the obvious choice.

7. Zapdos crashes
This is simple physics. If Zapdos was accelerating towards the ground, then missed Mewtwo, even if it applied the same force for deceleration, it would crash into the ground; that is even if gravity wasn't constantly pulling it down. Add that Zapdos won't know when to decelerate, as it can't see Mewtwo or Charizard, and the ground is essentially its target.

8. Mewtwo destroys Optimus Prime
Whether Optimus Prime has "relative power" or not is irrelevant. Mewtwo has blown up labs and gyms; unless Prime was put together using some wiring and welding reinforced beyond what the Team Rocket scientists thought was necessary to hold back Mewtwo (which was quite a bit of reinforcement), his overall strength won't help him. Being the most powerful Transformer doesn't help, as no matter how powerful a hunk of metal is, it is still a hunk of metal, and just as vulnerable to Mewtwo as a hunk of metal. Note that Mewtwo doesn't attack it with psychic blasts; he looks at it, and it rips apart as if it were paper.

10. Argarok and Goku fight
While Argarok may lose in the long run, he will distract Goku more than long enough for Mewtwo to intervene in his favor.

The rest of the numbered contentions have been addressed above.

My opponent claims that if Kevin were a vampire, he'd defeat Charizard; this makes no sense, because Stoker's vampires have a fatal weakness to fire. As three of my team members use fire, converting his entire team to vampires would actually be suicidal.

He claims that I added a rule last round, but it was he who added a previously non-existent pre-war "loading time" in which things can occur; Occam's razor suggests that such time doesn't exist, and such a time has never been used before in any Ultimate Team War debate.

He also claims that Mewtwo will fall, even though I've provided video evidence to the contrary. I've also provided unrefuted evidence that Count Dracula cannot fly, which means that he will start falling at the start of the battle, hitting the ground in thirty seconds; travelling so fast, with such powerful G-forces acting upon him, he will not be able to concentrate hard enough to do anything, let alone conjure a huge swarm of bats in a precise location, a skill that is already heavily contested.

In conclusion, everything will go as I have described with little, if any, deviation. Most of my characters could take on the entire of Team LARZ alone, given the proper set-up; having all of them just makes this a beatdown. My opponent's arguments rely on severe misinterpretation of what is and is not canonical, and what does and does not make logical sense; this fails in the face of compelling web and video evidence to the contrary.

I would like to remind everybody of Rules 12 and 13, forbidding my opponent from creating new counter-arguments and combining the sources and arguments voting categories into one.

Thank you, larz, for this Ultimate Team War debate, and thank you, readers, for taking the time to read it, and thank you, again, Maikuru, for monitoring this debate. May we fight again in the future.


Since I cannot create new arguments this round, I'll do a brief summary as to why my team has emerged victorious today. Top 10 reasons to vote con:

1. Dark Magician fails
My opponent never really responded to my analysis that Mahad did not have the same powers outside of the memory world, even though he existed in both the memory and real world, given by me last round.

2. Harry Potter fails

My opponent rests his entire case for Harry beating bats on Dracula's inability to summon beyond a certain distance - yet he provides no source or analysis as to why not.

3. Mewtwo fails
I think my opponent will find all Mewtwo's attacks are psychic. Also, I tend to think Team Rocket is a little less sophisticated than Optimus Prime: after all, they do "blast off" at the end of almost every single episode and their evil schemes never really work. As to the speed argument, the speed statistic on Bulbapedia cited by my opponent is an average of attack and defense speed, yet it is defense and attack that matters. As there is no film fight between Zapdos and Mewtwo, there is no film canon like my opponent asserts, so we must look to the statistics given by the creators of pokemon. Finally, my opponent should really respond to my analysis in round four about the barrier ability.
(NB this is a valid new argument as it is in response to a new argument in round five)

4. Argarok fails
Against Goku

5. Charmander fails
Against Kevin (with electric and dark powers), Zapdos, Goku and Prime.

6. Zapdos is awesome

Because he changes direction rather than decelerates, as I've said before - analysis that my opponent again didn't respond to.

7. Dracula is awesome
My opponent says that Charmander's and Argarok's fire will kill the vampire army that I have created. As I said last round, it wouldn't matter because Mewtwo's fall will have caused my opponent to lose first. Besides, I claim my army is, on the whole, faster than my opponent's fire-breathers and therefore better able to dodge. Another unresponded argument I've made before.

I find it really funny that when I point out my opponent added a new rule in round four, he added another rule in round five (Occam's Razor) to justify his insertion of a rule in round four. How is this NOT dirty tactics?

8. Optimus Prime is awesome
Because, as I've proven, Mewtwo is powerless against him.

9. Kid Goku is awesome
My opponent seems to have dropped his analysis that Goku is weaker than Argarok

10. Kevin 11 is awesome
Because, with electric, dark and vampire powers, he is invincible.

[cue triumphant victory music]

Debate Round No. 5
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
This was quite a detailed debate, largely because each team had a member (Harry and Goku) that could feasibly destroy the entire other team. However, whereas Pro successfully occupied his opponent's powerhouse, Con failed in this regard. Specifically, Dracula was tasked with distracting Harry with an unsourced, easily countered ability. As such, I must believe this tactic would fail and Pro's overall plan would succeed.

Excellent debate but arguments and sources (per rule 13) go to Pro.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
I was expecting votes by now...
Posted by larztheloser 7 years ago
Everywhere where it says he has power over the dead. One can infer it from numerous passages in the original novel (he has conjuration, as is shown when he "conjures" a mist, and he has power over the dead, for instance, his brides).
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
Although, could you please source where Count Dracula can conjure swarms of undead bats?
Posted by larztheloser 7 years ago
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
That was an impressively quick response, larz.
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
Both teams are accounted for. I look forward to this one.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
That makes so much sense. I actually checked if any of Zapdos' foreign names was Zapotec.
Posted by larztheloser 7 years ago
Sorry ... my honest mistake. I meant Zapdos (the Pokemon) ( but my spellchecker changed it and I forgot to make an exception for it. Sorry again.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
No mention of a character on Wikipedia.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Maikuru 7 years ago
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Details given in the comment section.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 7 years ago
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Close but edge to Con (1/3), however in general principle Son Goku could solo this fight and is clear violation of rule #3.