The Instigator
mongeese
Pro (for)
Losing
16 Points
The Contender
Maikuru
Con (against)
Winning
25 Points

Ultimate Team War - High Altitude

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/5/2011 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,662 times Debate No: 16886
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (47)
Votes (8)

 

mongeese

Pro

This is Ultimate Team War. Each debater must assemble a team of five characters, and the teams will then fight to the death(ish). Since we cannot have an actual real-life battle, each debater will explain why their team is superior during this debate.

However, it will take place in the sky.

DEFINITIONS
Team leader: One of the debaters here, i.e. me or my opponent
Team member: One of the five chosen warriors.
Team Pro: My team.
Team Con: My opponent's team.

RULES
1. The fight is to occur in mid-air. The atmosphere is the exact same as Earth's. The temperature is 25 degrees Celcius, with clear skies and no oncoming weather conditions. The time is noon, with the Sun directly overhead. The ground is empty; the composition of the ground is irrelevant to this debate.
2. The furthest bounds make essentially a cube in the air, one kilometer by one kilometer wide and one kilometer high, directly above the ground. Any team member who has any part of their body leave these bounds or touch the ground is immediately disqualified.
3. There will be no demi-god characters that are capable of travelling at ridiculous speeds, shattering almost any barriers in their way sustaining little damage to themselves, and wiping out anything, like Superman or Sentry, or anything more powerful than that. Nor will there be any unlimited powers that cannot be resisted.If you're in doubt, just ask.
4. Other illegal powers include time travel and mind control (taking over an opposing character).
5. Any team member must be either real or, if fictional, verifiably existent. No characters may be made up for the purpose of this debate.
6. In the case of a fictional character, the team member's abilities must be according to a specific canon chosen by the team leader.
7. Every character has only the equipment that they generally have in the specified canon, or any equipment they would use in air combat.
8. Team members are absolutely loyal to the team leader. All team members are still subjected to their own emotions, however.
9. The team leader may not directly participate in the competition, but may only facilitate. The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team.
10. Neither team can have a member in common. If one team leader chooses a team member, the other team cannot have that character.
11. A team wins when all members of an opposing team are dead, unconscious, or essentially unusable. Characters who cannot be dead, unconscious, or unusable are not allowed.
12. Neither debater may create new arguments and plans after Round 3; they may only create new counter-arguments and clarify old arguments. In Round 5, CON may not produce new counter-arguments, except to counter PRO's new counter-arguments or clarifications.
13. The winning team automatically receives Arguments and Sources. Conduct, in addition to regular things, goes to the person who follows the rules most effectively. Please remember this rule.

Positions are to be posted using an (x,y,z) format, in meters. (0,0,0), for example, is the bottom left corner of the PRO side, extending to (1000,1000,1000), the top right corner of the CON side. The two sides are split at the plane (y = 500).

Round 1: Rule specifications; PRO has informed headphonegut of his five chosen team members, as well as their locations. CON chooses five team members as well, and informs headphonegut. If there are no matches in team members, CON posts those five team members, as well as their locations. Otherwise, he chooses a substitute team member.

Round 2: PRO unveils his five team members and their positions, then proceeds to explain how his team would win. CON then responds with a counter-strategy.

Round 3, 4, 5: Arguments and rebuttals. No new plans may be made after Round 3. CON may not present any new arguments during round 5, since PRO has no chance to rebut them.

Oh, and thanks to MTGandP for coming up with the entire concept of Ultimate Team War, and to headphonegut for agreeing to be the mediator!
Maikuru

Con

Let me start my thanking Mongeese for this debate opportunity. I believe he and I debated twice before and both were entertaining. I look forward to a similarly positive experience. Throughout this debate, I hope both he and I work to keep our arguments powerful and concise; Ultimate Team Wars often suffer from a lack of reader participation.

TEAM CON

Unless otherwise noted, each character is based on classic continuity, prior to any power-downs, serious injuries, or death. I intend for each character to begin between the middle y-axis (500) and the back wall of the boundary. However, my math is not great and I apologize for any unintended illegal placements.

1. Spot (600L, 600W, 600H): http://en.wikipedia.org...

2. Magneto (700L, 700W, 500H): http://marvel.wikia.com...

3. Peter Petrelli (599L, 600W, 600H ) - Prior to losing abilities to Arthur Petrelli : http://heroeswiki.com...

4. Graviton (800L, 800W, 900H): http://marvel.wikia.com...

5. Super Skrull (601L, 600W, 600H) - Prior to losing any shape shifting abilities: http://marvel.com...

With that, I turn the floor over to my opponent.

Good luck!
Debate Round No. 1
mongeese

Pro

Thank you, Maikuru, for posting your team. Here's mine:

TEAM PRO

1. Blue-Eyes White Dragon (Yu-Gi-Oh anime) (200,300,300): http://yugioh.wikia.com...
2. Rayquaza (Pokemon anime) (800,300,800): http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...(movie_7)
3. Harry Potter (Harry Potter book series) (riding Blue-Eyes): http://harrypotter.wikia.com... (epilogue of Book 7)
4. Link (The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask) (riding Rayquaza): http://zelda.wikia.com... (Dawn of a New Day)
5. Mewtwo (Pokemon anime) (500,300,500): http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...(anime)

And... start!

Mewtwo covers himself in a psychic forcefield. Harry casts Protego Totalum around himself and Blue-Eyes, along with Impervius and a Supersensory Charm for good measure. Link chugs a bottle of Chateau Romani, strengthening his own magical powers, then equips his Lens of Truth, allowing himself to see the invisible.

Mewtwo first charges at Spot, Peter, and Super Skrull, who are all conveniently together. Super Skrull's power relies on an interstellar beam fired on him from his home planet; because such a beam does not exist in this planet, he lacks the power of flight, and he falls to the ground, defeated.

Spot and Peter will probably try to fend off Mewtwo, but when they're close enough, he can use his psychic powers to wipe their minds of the battle. If any other foes have charged him as well, they will also lose their memory. He can then teleport them back to wherever it is they came from, disqualifying them.

Rayquaza will rise to attack Graviton; as gravitons, the subatomics particles controlled by Graviton, don't exist in this world, his powers are useless. He will be helpless against Hyper Beam and Link's Light Arrow.

This leaves only Magneto, although if he didn't get away from Mewtwo, he will be caught in the memory wipe with Spot and Peter. Blue-Eyes will attack him with White Lightning, joined by a Fiendfyre from Harry, quickly followed by numerous blasts of Avada Kedavra. As Magneto is distracted by the joint attack, Mewtwo can bring him down with Psychic. If necessary, he can use Disable to cut off his magnetic power.

The respective wikis that I cited can be used to look up the various weapons, attacks, and spells that I mentioned.

Good luck with your response, Maikuru!
Maikuru

Con

I thank Mongeese for his quick response and condense arguments. My own points will be broken into three parts: a defense of my characters' validity, questions about my opponent's plans, and my counter-strategy.

CHARACTER VALIDITY

My opponent claims two of my characters are useless, as Graviton will not have access to gravitational particles nor Super Skrull to his power amplifying signal. While these team members are tangential to my plans and were never intended to do much, Pro's claims demand a rebuttal.

To start, Graviton is not helpless. His molecular structure is infused with the gravitational particles, allowing him to maintain flight regardless of whether they are present in his environment [1, see: History]. In addition, these particles are theorized to exist within Earth's atmosphere [2][3], giving him full access to his abilities.

As for Super Skrull, he is similarly empowered. Like most members of his species, Super Skrull possesses initiate shape shifting abilities [4] and he will be able to stay airborne and battle with ease. Also, Rules 6 and 7 state that team members and their equipment will be modeled on canon to be chosen by the Team Leader. As the canon I specified for Super Skrull lists the power amplifying signal as a component of his character, it necessarily exists during this battle.

QUESTIONS ON ROUND 1

While on the topic of character traits, I ask Pro to clarify the existence of Blue Eyes White Dragon in this battle. My opponent chose the Yu-Gi-Oh anime as the source for this creature but provided no specific story arc. As such, we must assume he is referring to its standard incarnation. Since it is too late to alter or specify source materials, I am intrigued at how a holographic projection of a trading card poses any threat.

I also ask that Pro elaborate on Mewtwo's psychic force field, mind-wiping, and ability to transport others, as I found no evidence of such powers in his provided link.

COUNTER-ATTACK

My opening salvo involves the unique and underrated Spider-Man villain, Spot. Using his ability to instantly generate and traverse inter-spatial and inter-dimensional portals, Spot will work to systematically eliminate the opposing team. This is due to Rule 2, which states that no portion of a character's body may leave the battlefield or they will be disqualified. As Spot's portals transport any portion of any object that passes through them to another location of his choosing, he need only have an enemy touch a part of their body to a portal for them to be removed from play.

The moment the battle begins, Spot generates handfuls of portals surrounding all sides of each enemy. These warp tunnels will all appear only a hair's width away from their bodies, with the other ends appearing equally near to the outer boundaries of the battle arena. As such, the opposing team is effectively trapped until they inevitably move and teleport part of themselves out of bounds. Fortunately, Pro has instructed each member of his team to jump into action immediately out of the gate; Link drinks a potion, Harry casts spells, Mewtwo erects a barrier, Rayquaza rises to meet Graviton, and Blue-Eyes initiates an attack on Magneto. As the portals appear instantly and without warning, the slight (and not so slight) movements of hands, arms, tails, heads, and wings involved in each of these actions is sufficient to disqualify much, if not all, of my opposition.

The remainder of my team is also active at this time. Magneto and Super Skrull protect themselves and team mates with magnetic and invisible force fields, respectively. The latter also renders the rest of his team invisible. Graviton and Peter, on the other hand, prepare to use two of their respective abilities (i.e. gravitation control and telekinesis) to move enemies toward the nearest warp tunnel.

The moves these characters make at this point depend largely on how Team Pro reacts to our first strike. Of course, for an enemy to avoid an immediate disqualification and force additional actions on my part, they would somehow how to remain completely motionless in midair despite gravity, telekinesis, and their own movements pushing them toward disqualification.

The next move belongs to my opponent.

REFERENCES

1. http://marvel.wikia.com...
2. http://en.wikipedia.org...
3. http://scienceworld.wolfram.com...
4. http://marvel.com...

Debate Round No. 2
mongeese

Pro

Thank you, Maikuru, for response. This is one of my trickiest UTW challenges yet, but no matter!

CHARACTER VALIDITY


I will accept that Graviton can use the gravitons in his own body to maintain his levitation and flight. However, gravitons are, as you mentioned, only theorized to exist on Earth. As they quite likely don't actually exist, there's no reason for them to be allowed in this debate. There is no need for gravitons, and their existence only complicates things further, going so far as to make many other scientifically established facts invalid [1]. They also don't make much sense. Individual photons, as evidenced by black holes, are able to be pulled by gravity. Do photons contain gravitons in them? That doesn't make much sense. Do gravitons attach themselves to the photons? On a subatomic scale, how would the ratio of gravitons to photons maintain Newton's laws? They over-complicate everything, and should therefore be ignored in the real world, and in canons where gravitons are not explicitly stated to exist.

Super Skrull may have shape-shifting abilities, but to what degree? What can or can't he shape-shift into? Are the transformations perfect or imperfect? More importantly, what does he intend to shape-shift into to avoid crashing to the ground? I need answers to these questions that your sources don't seem so inclined to divulge.

Looking back to Rules 6 and 7:
6. The interstellar beam is not an ability, making this rule irrelevant. Skrull's abilities are conditional to being exposed by the beam, not the other way around.
7. An interstellar beam in no way qualifies as equipment for Super Skrull. It is a piece of equipment for the other Skrulls, and they use it from another planet to power up Super Skrull. The existence and maintanence of the beam relies on the existence of other Skrulls on another planet, and they aren't in this universe. It is not a "component of his character," but merely a particular scenario created by others that Super Skrull benefitted from.

QUESTIONS ON ROUND 2 (referred to by Maikuru as Round 1)

The Blue-Eyes White Dragon, as explained in the Yu-Gi-Oh anime, my chosen canon, is "the spirit of Kisara, as well as the patron monster of the Priest Seto" [2]. The hologram generated by KaibaCorp technology through the course of a show was merely a representation of Blue-Eyes, and everyone referred to it as Blue-Eyes to go along with the game. Only during Shadow Games or the Millennium World arc did we get glimpses of the real Blue-Eyes White Dragon, and it was most definitely not a hologram. In short, Blue-Eyes is not a hologram by definition, but is instead a very real and very deadly dragon.

Video 1 [4:00 - 4:19] displays Mew and Mewtwo battling with psychic forcefields around them. Note how quickly Mewtwo is able to move around in one. You can also see other acts of awesomeness by Mewtwo, such as blowing up a building [0:18] or casually reflecting a Gyarados' Hyper Beam [1:38].

As for his mind-wiping and teleporting abilities:
"After witnessing all of this, Mewtwo states that it does not matter who is more powerful, that the clones and originals both have value, and nothing else about the matter. He also says that it would be best if no one knew about what happened. When Mewtwo flies off, he tells Ash that he will find a place where he and the clones can live in peace. As a result, all the memories of this event are erased from the Trainers' minds.
"Ash, Misty, and Brock instantly find themselves back at the pier with no memory of their adventure on New Island. Ash sees a Mew in the clouds as the storm ends, but Misty and Brock do not, thinking it only to be a mirage." [3]

COUNTERING MAIKURU

I question Spot's ability to generate these portals instantaneously. Every source I've read about him suggests that he must physically remove the spots from his own body and place them where he wants them to go. This action suggests that he is able to set up hundreds of spots in the blink of an eye, which would require both Spot's mind and body to move at superhuman levels, which doesn't seem to be part of Spot's skill set. It should take him at least an entire minute for Spot to complete his set-up, which is more than enough time for Mewtwo to stop him. Note that he cannot teleport, because that would involve going through an entirely separate dimension, the Spotted Dimension, which is not in the established cube, disqualifying him. In fact, without being able to use his own spots, is Spot able to maintain levitation and avoid disqualification? Add that Mewtwo is protected by a psychic bubble and Harry and Blue-Eyes are protected by Protego Totalum, and Spot is guaranteed to fail.

If Spot ever tries to spot Mewtwo, who is closest to Spot at the start (which isn't going to work, because of Mewtwo's bubble, which would stop the spots), he can use his psychic powers to grab the spots and surround members of Team CON with them. Spot would then have to go back and save his team, allowing Mewtwo to come even closer. From about 50 meters away, he will wipe Spot's mind, making him forget that Team CON must be saved. They will then fall to Spot's trap.

If Spot ever tries to get anybody on Team PRO stuck, Mewtwo can teleport them out of harm's way, and continue to pursue Spot.

Magneto may create a magnetic forcefield, but Super Skrull is rather powerless, so his attempt fails. Rayquaza has proven capable of destroying forcefields, as it took out one created by Deoxys in the 7th Movie. Magnetic forcefields are also incapable of blocking magical or psychic attacks. How will Spot get through these forcefields to actually place his spots? Even if Super Skrull can make his team invisible, Link's Lens of Truth will allow him full sight of them anyway, and he could then direct the charge; Harry could also use Aparecium to make them all visible again.

Peter may try to use Telekinesis, but while he is distracted, Harry can apparate behind him and finish him with Avada Kedavra, then apparate back to his mount.

Basically, my opponent's strategy relies on the notion that Spot can set up his dream situation within about a millisecond, which he has yet to source, so I really doubt that it is possible.

The floor is yours, Maikuru.

1. http://www.americanchronicle.com...
2. http://yugioh.wikia.com...
3. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
Maikuru

Con



As he is a veteran of Ultimate Team Wars, I take Mongeese's comment on the trickiness of this battle as a big compliment!

CHARACER VALIDITY

Pro concedes Graviton's ability to fly but questions their existence. However, his critisms are not new to the scientific community and neither disprove gravitons nor explain away scientific evidence to the contrary [1][2]. As my opponent and I are unlikely to settle a scientific dispute in this venue, I will leave it to the voters to determine whether the evidence favors one side or the other.

As for Super Skrull, he can shapeshift his body into organic or inorganic objects of his choice that are not overly large or small [3]. Here, he can easily transform into flying beasts and turn body parts into weapons at will. Skrull will have his additional abilities, though, as Pro's attack on his equipment misses the mark. The power amplifying signal was created for and used exclusively by Super Skrull during battle [5], which meets the criteria for equipment laid out by Rule 7. Nowhere in the source material is it stated that other beings are needed to continuously maintain or operate the beam, nor do the rules dictate that equipment must be present within the battle arena.

COUNTER-ATTACK

My opponent starts by questioning Spot's ability to generate portals instantaneously. To start, Spot can indeed shoot his portals quickly and over vast distances [6]. In addition, he can easily make them appear in locations of his choosing. My original reference specifies that Spot can "create new spots," "control and manipulate the warps to almost any degree he wishes," and "surround his opponents with numerous spots, allowing him to punch or kick them from unexpected angles across great distances. [7]" This is seen in Spot's battles, where portals appear directly around his enemies [8] or throughout new areas without having been thrown [9]. The videos also clearly show his ability to generate [Video 1 - 0:00-0:02, 3:57-4:43][Video 2 - 1:00-1:06] and shoot [Video 2 - 1:50-2:10] portals.

Pro goes on to question Spot's ability to remain airborne. I was well aware of this shortcoming and chose supporting characters that could support him at a moment's notice; Peter can use telekinesis to levitate him, Super Skrull and Magneto can encase him in floating force fields, and Graviton can grant him flight through gravity manipulation.

Lastly, Pro argues that Mewtwo's barriers can stop the portals. As I evidenced earlier, Spot's warp tunnels appear instantaneously and anywhere of his choosing. He will not be throwing portals against Mewtwo's barrier, but rather conjuring them a millimeter away from his body in every direction. Even if Mewtwo somehow manages to create his shield, such inter-dimensional can appear anywhere, including behind psychic forcefields.

As for Mewtwo's teleportation and mind-wiping abilities, I am still unconvinced of their existence. Pro's source references pokemon and trainers traveling to other locations and losing memories of recent events, but makes no mention of how these creatures traveled or how long such memory wipes took to complete. Keep in mind, though, that Mewtwo and his team will be long defeated before he has the opportunity to use any of these potential tricks.

With Pro's arguments defeated, my plans will come to fruition. All five members of the opposing team begin moving at battle's start, instantly touching Spot's portals and disqualifying themselves. Magneto will encompass my team with protective force fields capable of withstanding nuclear blasts [10], which will also levitate Spot. Magneto is then free to hurl the metal-clad Link toward a portal and attack remaining enemies with a mix of magnetically enhanced strength and speed. Peter uses his telekinetic abilities to force any remaining opponents into a nearby portal or levitate Spot, if need be. He also has the capacity to slow time for non-teammates during this time [11], ensuring that all spots are placed with no interference. If fully powered, Graviton and Super Skrull will force enemies toward portals and attack freely. If not, they will serve as distractions to remaining enemies with flight and hypnosis [11].

On to Round 4!

REFERENCES

1. http://en.wikipedia.org...
2. http://en.wikipedia.org...
3. http://en.wikipedia.org...
4. http://marvel.com...
5. http://marvel.com...
6. http://en.wikipedia.org...
7. http://t1.gstatic.com...
8. http://i304.photobucket.com...
9. http://marvel.wikia.com...
10. http://heroeswiki.com...
11. http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 3
mongeese

Pro

Thank you, Maikuru, for your response.

CHARACTER VALIDITY

My opponent appears to claim that there is scientific evidence in favor of the existence of gravitons, but of his two Wikipedia articles (vaguely cited in their entirety, so I may have missed something, in which case my opponent should specify), neither mention any holes in any accepted theories that must be filled by gravitons, and one doesn't even mention the graviton at all. If he really wants to convince us that gravitons exist, he has much more work to do.

My opponent continues to claim that the interstellar beam that powers Super-Skrull (which can hardly be said to belong to Super-Skrull, as he cannot control it and merely benefits from it as we benefit from an air rich in oxygen) qualifies as equipment. However, the interstellar beam requires a machine to generate and transmit the beam, which would really be "equipment." Even if it were, the machine would merely be floating in space, as there is no time at the start of the debate to place the machine on a specific planet, so the beam would move along in space, rarely focusing on its intended target of Super-Skrull, if ever.

Regarding Mewtwo, I will evidence "Mewtwo Returns" [1]. It takes about twenty seconds to clear the minds of Team Rocket, and less than five seconds to teleport them. At the start of the war, Mewtwo will surround himself with his psychic forcefield, suspending himself in midair, motionless, then concentrate on teleporting all of Team CON a kilometer away, instantly giving then the strange feeling that they had been utterly defeated.

COUNTER-ATTACK

Maikuru's sources for Spot's abilities range from vague to very specific. Yes, Spot can clearly surround his enemies with portals, but can he surround an enemy accurately from over 300 meters away? I doubt it. Almost all of Spot's fights are close-range, and even then, he places his portals a few feet away from his enemies, even though a tighter portal formation would give his foes even less opportunity to stike back. He never places a portal with any apparent intention of accuracy any further than about 10 meters away, and even admits in the second video [3:39 - 3:43] that distance is a problem for him. Should Spot place his portals too far away from my team members, they will have a chance to escape easily (except perhaps Link, because of Magneto's interference). All in all, it doesn't seem possible for Spot to, in ten seconds, conjure up portals from over 300 to 500 meters away that are even feet away from each of my team members while creating corresponding portals at least 400 meters away. If Spot waits any longer, Harry will have already apparated and killed Spot.

After five seconds, Team CON should be long gone, but until then:

Harry will use his Invisibility Cloak to hide himself, then apparate behind Spot and kill him with Avada Kedavra. Before apparating back to Blue-Eyes, he lets loose a Fiendfyre, which wreaks havoc on Team CON, trying to consume all of them.

Due to Spot's spots, Rayquaza's and Blue-Eyes' main attacks will be too risky, so instead, Rayquaza will use Hyper Voice on Spot, Magneto, and Super Skrull; the attack is energy-based instead of matter-based, so it will bypass the spots and travel through the barriers. This will disrupt them rather badly, interrupting their plans. During the chaos, Harry's assassination will be even easier. After Spot is gone, and Magneto and Peter must focus on the Fiendfyre, they unleash Hyper Beam and Burst Stream of Destruction, which will destroy both of them and anybody else in their way.

Peter's telekinetic abilities will not work against the Psychic Mewtwo, but I question is ability to manipulate things that are such a great distance away from him. I also recall reading that Peter can only access his powers if he has the proper emotions. What emotion is he required to have to use telekinesis, and is he currently in that emotional state?

Regarding his ability to slow down time, it doesn't appear that he can slow down time for only some people, but must affect both Team CON and Team PRO. There also doesn't appear to be any evidence that he can use this ability across vast distances; the only instance I see of him slowing down time is against tasers a few feet away.

The limits of Super-Skrull's hypnosis are incredibly vague, not even mentioned in the cited Wikipedia article. It is likely to only have a chance against Link (who can resist with his All-Night Mask) and Harry (who would overcome it in the same way that he overcape the Imperius curse.

Eventually, it gets to the point where Team CON, down Spot, is under siege by a Fiendfyre, Burst Stream of Destruction, and Hyper Beam, with Mewtwo freezing anybody who tries to escape and throwing them in harm's way. Link can snipe any other attempted escapers with his Light Arrows, as can Harry and his Avada Kedavra.

Note that outisde of incredibly vague attack commands that need to be embellished more in order to be responded to, my opponent's entire strategy for victory relies on Spot. After he is assassinated or teleported away, Team PRO guarantees victory.

That's all for now. Good luck, Maikuru!

1. http://www.anilinkz.com... [55:29 - 56:22]
Maikuru

Con

My opponent and I are finally getting to the heart of this battle. Let's go!

CHARACTER VALIDITY

Despite my opponent's claims, my sources clearly state that complications arising from the gravitons arise primarily at extreme gravitational levels, at which point additional, yet unidentified interactions likely come into play [1, see: Gravitons and renormalization]. String Theory, a highly accepted unifying perspective, predicts the existence of these particles and provides an explanation as to why the strength of gravity varies so widely from other known forces. On the other hand, none of Pro's criticisms serve to eliminate gravitons as a viable theory, but are merely questions to be answered through currently ongoing research.

My opponent's attack on Super Skrull's powers is equally insufficient. He believes I was arguing in favor of the signal alone and not also the device from which it stems. This seems odd considering I previously discussed maintenance and operation of this equipment, but Rule 12 allows for clarifications so I will clarify. The power amplifying signal and its generator were created for and used exclusively by Super Skrull during battle, which meets the criteria for equipment laid out by Rule 7. As specified by my chosen canon, the device's location is the Super Skrull's home planet. These facts allow for use of this equipment without any ambiguity or rule-breaking.

Mewtwo's abilities, on the other hand, are not supported whatsoever by Pro's video. I invite readers to rewatch the video from 55:29 to 56:22. You'll notice that while Mewtwo claims he will wipe the minds of his enemies, it is instead thousands of other pokemon who seemingly hypnotise and transport the humans with their spores. While it is unclear whether Mewtwo guided these creatures or predicted their actions, one thing is certain: Mewtwo didn't teleport or mind-wipe anyone.

COUNTER-ATTACK

Before I begin, let it be noted that my opponent he has abandoned his original plan of attack for a full blown assault on Spot. This was a necessary change, as his previous plan had him completely defeated within moments. However, as only counter-attacks and clarifications are allowed after Round 3, all of his changes must occur after Spot's initial assault. That is to say, Harry would have already begun his incantations, Link would have reached for his potion bottle, Blue Eyes would have readied an attack, etc. when the decision to change course was made. I will show now that, by this point in time, each member of Team Pro has already been defeated.

I will start by refuting Pro's attacks on Peter Petrelli. At various times, Peter will use a number of abilities during this battle. He can do so because Peter can access multiple powers at once and no longer has the need to access particular emotions in the process [2, see: Original Ability]. Through the use of intuitive aptitude [3], Peter has extremely accurate time manipulation abilities. He can easily alter the flow of time (across the time-space continuum, not just certain areas [4]) and keep chosen individuals unfrozen simultaneously [5]. His telekinetic abilities are also impressive and he has demonstrated the ability to move large objects easily [6]. This ability would be effective in moving opponents toward portals, including Mewtwo, who is not immune to psychic attacks [see: Pro's R3 video, Mewtwo vs. Mew]. Lastly, Peter's speed is far greater than any member of Team Pro [7].

Combined, these abilities set up Spot perfectly. Before the opposing team can react, Peter will contact Spot and freeze the entire arena around them. Free from distractions, Spot is free to place portals exactly where he pleases. Once time unfreezes, Team Pro will each touch these portals and experience instant defeat. Having conceded that Spot can remain airborne and generate enough portals to surround his opponents, my opponent's last hope of avoiding this outcome his claim that Spot cannot place warp tunnels with enough accuracy to ensnare his team. Fortunately, this is not the case.

To start, creating portals close to objects poses no issue for Spot. As I mentioned last round, my initial reference states Spot is able to both "control and manipulate the warps to almost any degree he wishes" and "surround his opponent with numerous spots, allowing him to punch or kick them from unexpected angles across great distances." The same source notes that Spot once warped Spider-Man so near to a wall that the hero was unable to avoid the impact. My first video in Round 3 also shows Spot generating a portal so close to Spider-Man's hands and feet that he actually falls from the wall to which he was clinging [3:55-4:00]. Soon afterward, the villain goes on to create portals directly beneath money bags and inches away from a leaping Spider-Man.

In his case, Pro presented zero evidence to the contrary. His assumption is based only on the fact that Spot generally creates portals a foot or so away from his enemies. Considering he normally attacks others by throwing punches or kicks through portals, this makes sense. In this battle, however, where getting an enemy to touch a portal means they are instantly defeated, Spot is free to produce his warps as close to their bodies as he wishes.

The second element of Pro's contention on accuracy is that Spot will miss far off enemies. He points to 3:07-4:15 in my second video, where Spot is unable to close a far off portal. Of course, he fails to mention that this particular portal had been growing uncontrollably for days and was easily thousands of meters wide and miles above the ground. Indeed, a special device is needed to close this massive warp tunnel and a plane is needed to even reach it! Spot will be making no portals of such great magnitude or distance in this debate, making Pro's comparison baseless.

In reality, my second quote above already references Spot's ability to generate portals over great distances. In addition, this talent can be seen in my first video in Round 3, where Spot controls a portal from very far off (notice the small size of the ship from Spot's top-down perspective). This example also demonstrates Spot's ability to control portals even when he cannot see them, a skill he can use to easily trap Pro's team instantly and in all directions. Also, keep in mind that because time will be slowed to a standstill, Spot has all the time in the world to place Spots exactly where he wants them.

SUMMARY

Despite my opponent's best efforts, no member of my team will ever be in jeopardy. Spot can dismantle the opposing team immediately and without the assistance of anyone. However, just to be safe, my other team members each serve as support; be it by slowing time, creating forcefieds, pushing enemies toward warp tunnels, or distracting the enemy, all of Team Con is meant to facilitate Spot's attack. As Pro has no remaining arguments against Spot's abilities, this plan will go off without a hitch and none of his counter-moves will ever come into play.

This has been a great debate. Finish it with a bang, Mongeese!

REREFENCES

1. http://en.wikipedia.org...
2. http://heroeswiki.com...
3. http://heroeswiki.com...
4. http://heroeswiki.com...
5. http://heroeswiki.com...
6. http://heroeswiki.com...
7. http://heroeswiki.com...



Debate Round No. 4
mongeese

Pro

This is the final round, so I would like to remind everybody of Rules #12 and #13.

CHARACTER VALIDITY

Maikuru's claim about gravitons does not actually support their existence; the section he cites only says that there are some problems with the mathematical equations that actually involve gravitons. This can't be evidence in favor of gravitons. While String Theory may use gravitons, it "has yet to make testable experimental predictions" [1], which greatly decreases its scientific importance. It is hardly as accepted as my opponent claims, with many valid criticisms [2]. The graviton's existence is quite simply not scientific.

Last round, I pointed out the problems that would occur if the Skrulls' signal-emitting device was used without a planet to direct it. My opponent's response is that the device is on the Skrulls' home planet. However, that planet is in a separate fictional universe, and can't be brought to the fight unless by a character. It is only allowed if it is classified as a part of Super Skrull's equipment; however, a planet is not a piece of equipment at all, so it is absent from this fight. Therefore, even if Super Skrull can "use" the signal, the signal will fail to reach him without his home planet present.

Finally, regarding Mewtwo's video, it is important to note that while the Butterfree swarm may have been involved in the amnesia, there are no teleportation spores in Pokemon; teleportation requires a Psychic Pokemon, in this case Mewtwo. See in "Mewtwo Strikes Back" [3] where he erases Ash and co.'s memory and teleports them without the aid of any other Pokemon. He will have no trouble with teleporting away Team CON in this fight.

COUNTER-ATTACK

My initial plan has not changed; my team will still set up as they planned. However, Mewtwo's setup (creating a bubble) is rather short, so he will immediately be able to execute his plan of teleportaiton.

My opponent intends to use Peter Petrelli to take control of this fight, but I am sure that this will backfire. He first uses his intuitive aptitude, but this ability has a glaring weakness, as it gives him a hunger "to understand as much as possible" which is so strong that it once compelled him to try to slice his own mother's head open. A hunger so strong will doubtlessly override the absolute loyalty specified in Rule #8, as Peter's loyalty to his mother appears to be of no consequence. Anyone trying to stop Peter from pursuing this will interrupt his concentration on time, so that Mewtwo can teleport away all of Team CON.

In this case, the curiousity will compel Peter to learn as much as he can about Spot's spots, and their link to an entirely separate other dimension. He will no doubt try to enter one of Spot's portals, intrigued by what the Spot dimension looks like and how its portals work, and in doing so, he will disqualify himself, leaving Spot far too little time to set up his portals accurately and at such a great distance.

I also have reason to doubt that Peter's time manipulation is as powerful as my opponent claims it is. I could only find one mention of Peter stopping time, and when he did, he actually failed to stop somebody from shooting him, and time resumed its normal course [4]. The space-time manipulation page also suggests that not using a power constantly makes it weaker and less reliable, and as Peter has little experience with stopping time, he is very likely to mess up. There also appear to be no instances of anyone stopping time for any great distances, suggesting that perhaps there is a distance limit to the ability.

My opponent claims that Peter can selectively not freeze some people in time, but his cited episode, "I am Sylar," has Peter doing practically nothing. If another person uses the ability, note that Peter, with less experience, would likely fail to execute this more advanced usage.

Regarding Peter's telekinesis, if he ever tried to control Mewtwo, Mewtwo would counter with his own psychic powers, holding himself in place with psychic power that was able to levitate all of Mewtwo's clones (including a Gyarados and all of the evolved Kanto starters); Peter strength would be unable to compare. He does not need to be immune to psychic attacks to negate motion with motion, and Mew never actually attacked Mewtwo with telekinesis, only with physical force and a Shadow Ball.

With Peter far less useful than claimed, Spot's attempts will fail. The cited "any degree" of Spot's control is merely an inference by a reader, and is not supported by evidence that details a pattern of never placing a portal even a few inches from a person suspended in air. Sure, Spot forced Spider-Man to crash into a wall, but how close the spot must be to the wall depends on how fast Spider-Man was going. If he was travelling at, say, 30 miles per hour, a spot a few feet away would easily result in a crash. The next example involved Spot placing spots on a wall, which is much simpler and easier than placing spots in mid-air, allowing for more accuracy. The same applies to the money bags. I never saw Spot place a portal a few inches away from Spider-Man, perhaps a foot at the closest.

Of course, there has to have been some limitation on Spot's ability to place portals, or else he could have rescued his friend when she was held hostage by placing a portal directly beneath her feet. We can only assume that he didn't do this because he couldn't.

Again, if Spot could place portals inches away, he would, as this would give his melee attacks more power and more surprise.

Regarding my specific criticism of the Spot, he actually said, separately from the fact that the portal was too large, that the portal was too far away; even if it were a normal spot, we can infer from this statement that he would be unable to close it. While the distance may not be replicated in this debate, an established distance limit casts serious doubt on his ability to create portals over 350 meters away.

My opponent references an instance in which Spot controls a portal from very far away, but fails to point out when he does so in the video, a detail that would be very helpful in actually understanding what he's talking about. As for the slowed-down time, I already discussed why Peter isn't quite so powerful, and why he'll eliminate himself anyway.

Now, even if Spot succeeds in surrounding my team with spots, one of my team members, Mewtwo, will never actually enter one of the spots, as he will hold himself in place with his psychic powers. As Team CON's only plans for eliminating anybody rely on the spots, Mewtwo's self-suspension makes him effectively immune and unable to be defeated. He can then teleport himself away from the portals and concentrate his psychic powers to banish Team CON away from the battlefield, disqualified, or use them as puppets and crash them to the ground if the previous method proves ineffective.

Meanwhile, the rest of Team PRO executes their plans as stated earlier, taking out anybody that Mewtwo does not, although they are admittedly more fragile and prone to the spots.

My opponent's claim that Spot can handle my team alone is blatantly false, as Spot has never demonstrated the ability to place multiple portals at such a great distance with such accuracy in such a short time, and to assume he can do so would be to vastly overstate his abilities.

Thank you, Maikuru, for this Ultimate Team War debate. It was been a true challenge. Thank you to the readers, as well, for reading this debate.

Well, let's see what you have left!

1. http://en.wikipedia.org...
2. http://en.wikipedia.org...
3. http://www.watchcartoononline.com... [1:07:25].
4. http://heroeswiki.com...
Maikuru

Con

I thank Mongeese for a unique and fun debate.

For this round, I will be changing the format slightly. Pro's plan of attack has always been to question my team's abilities. For my conclusion, I will focus on each character's powers and summarize why they would be successful or unsuccessful during this battle.

PETER PETRELLI

Peter's role in this battle is to freeze time the moment it begins and work with Spot to systematically eliminate Team Pro while they are defenseless. My opponent doubts three aspects of this strategy: his intuitive aptitude, time manipulation, and telekinesis. The latter will be no issue for Peter, as he mastered intuitive aptitude the day after obtaining it [1]. This ability is passive and activates whenever he uses any of his powers, so Peter used it a dozen times the very next episode without losing focus, killing anyone, or deviating from his mission. In this battle, where Peter exhibits total loyalty to me and maintains the same high level of control over his abilities, there is no chance of him exhibiting the outlandish behavior Pro described.

Peter's time manipulation is also precise and controlled. He obtained this ability from the less powerful Hiro, who was able to freeze meadows [2], office buildings [3], and open spaces [4][5] easily. Also note that Pro does not respond to the fact that this ability effects the entire space-time continuum, not only particular areas [6]. As for keeping Spot unfrozen in time, Peter's intuitive aptitude and experiences working with Hiro will make this a simple act. Peter is also in no danger of "messing up," as the only time he ever failed to freeze time was after his powers were stolen and he was no longer able to access multiple abilities at once, including super speed and intuitive aptitude [7].

Pro's telekinesis will easily defeat Mewtwo, who will be frozen and defenseless at the time. If Mewtwo is somehow able to move freely, he will be too busy contending with floating portals, psychic force fields, staying perfectly still, and attempting to teleport my entire team to notice Peter has telekinetically moved him two centimeters into an open warp tunnel.

SPOT

In the first moments of this war, Spot will surround all 5 members of Team Pro with portals (which will occur instantly regardless of whether time is frozen), the furthest of which being only be a few hundred meters away. As such, Pro's arguments about Spot closing gigantic portals miles away or transporting into undisclosed locations are irrelevant, as he will be doing no such thing here. My opponent has conceded that Spot can remain airborne while surrounding enemies with numerous portals. As for how far he can do so, my sources describe his control as nearly limitless and I have shown Spot controlling a portal he couldn't even see at least hundreds of feet away [Video 2 of R3, 0:30-0:50].

When it comes to how close Spot can generate portals to objects, my videos show Spot placing warps millimeters away from money bags and Spider-Man's hands and feet. Pro claims Spot cannot do the same in midair, despite each of my references thus far showing him effortlessly littering the air with warp tunnels placed precisely enough to stop even the quick and nimble Spider-Man!

MEWTWO

Mewtwo started the battle by creating a psychic bubble and charging my team. Then, after seeing Spot's portal placement, Pro instructed Mewtwo to stop himself in midair, keep himself completely motionless using his psychic abilities, teleport himself to safety, and then attempt to teleport my team out of bounds.

First, Mewtwo and the rest of his team are susceptible to Peter's time freeze and will be eliminated before they can even react. Second, if this strategy fails for any reason, Mewtwo was never initially instructed to remain motionless. As such, he will not attempt to stop moving until after he's seen Spot's portals and has already accidentally touched one (be it while making his barrier, charging my team, or simply moving his head, tail, or limbs). Third, Mewtwo's teleporting was never proven. Pro's video shows the teleportation taking at least 16 seconds (the video changes scenes before anyone rematerializes). Also, everyone who is transported remains motionless and does not resist. Lastly, it is impossible to determine whether Mewtwo did this act alone or with the assistance of Mew, who possessed similar psychic abilities, motives, and was glowing right next to Mewtwo at the time. If Pro intended to prove that Mewtwo can teleport moving targets alone while under constant attack and remaining motionless, he needed to provide additional evidence.

GRAVITON

Graviton will use his gravitational abilities to move enemy combatants toward open portals. Following a brief list of open questions on the existence of gravitons, Pro has offered little defense against this attack. As I explained previously, none of my opponent's criticisms disprove gravitons or demonstrate why their existence should be disregarded. While these particles are theoretical, the reasoning and resources I provided demonstrate scientific backing for gravitons and indicate that their existence fills gaps in current gravitational theories.

SUPER SKRULL

Using the combined abilities of his species and the Fantastic Four, Super Skrull will use invisible force fields to protect his team mates and push enemies toward portals. As I have proven that Skrull's power amplifying beam is indeed a key piece of equipment for him during battle, he will have access to it and each of these abilities. Pro's argument that the device and its location exist outside of the arena is irrelevant; all characters, abilities, and equipment listed in this debate originate from separate fictional universes and nowhere is it stated that all aspects of the battle must be immediately present.

EVERYONE ELSE

At the battle's start, Magneto will immediately protect all of my team with magnetic force fields that are capable of withstanding nuclear blasts, let alone anything the opposing team has to throw at him. He will then toss Link, who is clad in metal, toward a portal and then get to work using his superhuman speed and strength on any remaining opponents. Since the entire enemy force will be disqualified by this time, he will have played his part.

The remainder of Team Pro - Blue Eyes, Rayquaza, and Harry Potter - never leave the starting gate. The first two are so large that they are guaranteed to at least one portal immediately. The very idea that either one of these behemoths would be able to navigate around dozens of floating and randomly appearing portals is one that Pro never bothered to defend. As for Harry, he starts off on top of Blue Eyes and begins conjuring spells. Since these spells require motion and he will quickly find himself in a free fall when Blue Eyes disappears from under him, he will be contacting a portal one way or another immediately.

CONCLUSION

The abilities and tactics of each of my team members holds strong. With the assistance of his peers, Spot will easily remain airborne and threat-free while placing his portals around the enemy. However, even if every one of his team mates is down and he is in total free fall, his precision control of his warp tunnels will allow him to disqualify Team Pro before they know what hits them. It was a great battle, but Mewtwo and his crew never stood a chance.

Thanks for reading, everyone!

REFERENCES

1. http://heroeswiki.com...
2. http://heroeswiki.com......
3. http://heroeswiki.com...
4. http://heroeswiki.com...
5. http://heroeswiki.com...
6. http://heroeswiki.com...
7. http://heroeswiki.com...
Debate Round No. 5
47 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Maikuru 2 years ago
Maikuru
I remember watching Spot on the Spider-Man cartoon as a kid and wondering why he wasn't just taking over the Marvel universe haha. He went on an unstoppable killing spree for a while in the comics. Good times.

Kraven is a sorely underrated Spider-Man villain, probably because of the cartoon's buffoonish portrayal. Kraven's Last Hunt is one of the best graphic novels I've read and does a great job portraying the frustration and insanity that can haunt a perpetually defeated villain.

My favorite hero is Gambit and he's pretty popular. Most people don't realize just how powerful he is, though. The New Son story line shows that in a parallel dimension, Gambit destroyed all life on Earth. The Gambit we known put blocks on his powers to protect himself and others. He's still a bad-a$$, though lol.
Posted by OberHerr 2 years ago
OberHerr
Got any other underrated Superheros/Villains you know of?
Posted by OberHerr 2 years ago
OberHerr
I've been reading on him, and he just pwns!

I mean.....seriously, he is just plain awesome. How the heck is he not famous?
Posted by Maikuru 2 years ago
Maikuru
Did you just change your picture to Spot?! That picture and his inclusion in this debate are literally the biggest accolades this character has ever received lol. Spot deserves the love!
Posted by OberHerr 2 years ago
OberHerr
Spot rocks.
Posted by MikeyMike 2 years ago
MikeyMike
time to start reading..
Posted by MikeyMike 2 years ago
MikeyMike
actually, I can't vote, haven't been in enough debates.
Posted by MikeyMike 2 years ago
MikeyMike
New to debate.org, as clearly evidenced as how bluesteel efficiently wiped the floor with me in a debate lol.

This team battle thing seems pretty cool, I might be willing to engage in one of these.

Since con voted on my debate, which only has one vote sadly :( (guess people are too lazy to read these days). I will read this and vote on it when I have the time.

I do agree with bluesteel that Peter should definitely have been the main Powerhouse and not a support character. I mean he could have essentially done everything.
Posted by Maikuru 2 years ago
Maikuru
A search for "friend" found it lol.

Pro, R5: "Of course, there has to have been some limitation on Spot's ability to place portals, or else he could have rescued his friend when she was held hostage by placing a portal directly beneath her feet. We can only assume that he didn't do this because he couldn't."

Con, R5: "In the first moments of this war, Spot will surround all 5 members of Team Pro with portals (which will occur instantly regardless of whether time is frozen), the furthest of which being only be a few hundred meters away. As such, Pro's arguments about Spot closing gigantic portals miles away or transporting into undisclosed locations are irrelevant, as he will be doing no such thing here. My opponent has conceded that Spot can remain airborne while surrounding enemies with numerous portals. As for how far he can do so, my sources describe his control as nearly limitless and I have shown Spot controlling a portal he couldn't even see at least hundreds of feet away [Video 2 of R3, 0:30-0:50]."

That's where I should have said Video 1, though I already mentioned it in R4.
Posted by Maikuru 2 years ago
Maikuru
I don't remember this one too well, either. I'll have to re-read to find your girlfriend comment, especially since F7 didn't track down "girlfriend" lol. I hope you didn't use her name!
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by MouthWash 1 year ago
MouthWash
mongeeseMaikuruTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro had to resort to weak attempts at disqualifying particular abilities used by the opposite team. Con clearly wins.
Vote Placed by ScottyDouglas 2 years ago
ScottyDouglas
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Reasons for voting decision: Great debate. It was interesting.
Vote Placed by THEBOMB 2 years ago
THEBOMB
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Reasons for voting decision: CON's argument that Spot and Peter together would basically take out PRO's entire force was never adequately refuted, in my opinion. CON defended those two aspects successfully. This gives CON the win as these two characters together well take out PROs force. Arguments- CON. Sources- CON (Con had more).
Vote Placed by Multi_Pyrocytophage 2 years ago
Multi_Pyrocytophage
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Reasons for voting decision: I thought Pro had better conduct and grammar overall. Both sides presented good arguments and I couldn't pick. But I think that Con had better sources.
Vote Placed by Atheism 2 years ago
Atheism
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Reasons for voting decision: Very intriguin debate! The spot argument from Maikuru really did the trick for me, as Pro was unable to counter it fully. Maikuru also had superior S&G, and a buttload of sources. Props to both sides!
Vote Placed by bluesteel 2 years ago
bluesteel
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Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments
Vote Placed by freedomsquared 2 years ago
freedomsquared
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Reasons for voting decision: I feel like PRO did a good job of casting doubt on the abilities of CON's team. He also presented an effective attack. CON's victory depended on defending the abilities of his men (first) before their attack, and he didn't achieve this. However, CON did win S
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 3 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
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Reasons for voting decision: Very well argued from both sides, and novel use of a very specific character from Maikuru. Based on the arguments and videos it seems obvious that Spot could litter the space with spots and any movement from Pro would result in the team member being spotted outside. But excellent counter so this barely passes 4:3