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Con (against)
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Ultimate Team War - Isle Delfino

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/5/2011 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,004 times Debate No: 14671
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (2)




This is Ultimate Team War. Each debater must assemble a team of five characters, and the teams will then fight to the death(ish). Since we cannot have an actual real-life battle, each debater will explain why their team is superior during this debate.

Team leader: One of the debaters here, i.e. me or my opponent
Team member: One of the five chosen warriors.
Team Pro: My team.
Team Con: My opponent's team.

1. The war will take place on Isle Delfino, the sunny vacation site in Super Mario Sunshine. After 20 minutes, a flash flood will occur as seen in the game, submerging a good part of the island in water until the end of the war. All Piantas, Nokis, Yoshis, and Tanookis have been evacuated, and the Shine Gate has been completely restored with 120 Shines.
All warps between locations are assumed to be two-way, unlike the one-way warps in the game from Delfino Plaza to anywhere on the island, with the exception of the cannon that leads to Pinna Park. Additionally, all invisible walls that prevented other travel between locations have been removed.
2. No character may travel more than 1,000 feet underground, nor 1,000 feet from the coastline of the island, nor 1,000 feet above Corona Montain's peak.
3. There will be no demi-god characters that are capable of travelling at ridiculous speeds, shattering almost any barriers in their way sustaining little damage to themselves, and wiping out anything, like Superman or Sentry, or anything more powerful than that. Nor will therebe any unlimited powers that cannot be resisted.If you're in doubt, just ask.
4. Other illegal powers include time travel and mind control (taking over an opposing character).
5. Any team member must be either real or, if fictional, verifiably existent. No characters may be made up for the purpose of this debate.
6. In the case of a fictional character, the team member's abilities must be according to a specific canon chosen by the team leader.
7. Every character has only the equipment that they generally have in the specified canon.
8. Team members are absolutely loyal to the team leader. All team members are still subjected to their own emotions, however.
9. The team leader may not directly participate in the competition, but may only facilitate. The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team.
10. Neither team can have a member in common. If one team leader chooses a team member, the other team cannot have that character.
11. A team wins when all members of an opposing team are dead, unconscious, or essentially unusable. Characters who cannot be dead, unconscious, or unusable are not allowed.
12. The winning team automatically receives Arguments and Sources. Conduct, in addition to regular things, goes to the person who follows the rules most effectively. Please remember this rule.

Round 1: Rule specifications; PRO unveils first three team members, CON unveils all five team members. PRO also chooses the location of his team at the start of the fight; CON then chooses a different location.

Round 2: PRO unveils his final two team members and explains why his team is better. CON also begins his arguments.

Round 3, 4, 5: Arguments and rebuttals. CON may not present any new arguments during round 5, since PRO has no chance to rebut them.

My team will start in Delfino Plaza, and each character will have an individual starting position within Delfino Plaza. My opponent must choose a separate starting location as listed on Isle Delfino's wiki page.

Team Member 1: Charizard
More specifically, I use Ash's Charizard from the anime. Charizard is a powerful Fire/Flying-type Pokémon that also looks like a dragon.
His wiki:'s_Charizard
Charizard will start at Delfino Plaza's entrance to Mt. Corona.

Team Member 2: Link
Link is a corageous Hylian clad in green, who wields a sword and a shield, altough he also has an array of other equipment to choose from. The specific Link I choose to use is the Hero of Time, from Majora's Mask, whose unique trait is the many masks that he can put on for magical effects. He also has the Triforce of Courage, which seems to grant him protection from dark magic and innate skill with weaponry and such things.
His wiki:
Link will start on top of the Shine Gate.

Team Member 3: Harry Potter
Harry is an Auror, a powerful wizard. He's also the Boy who Lived, and the Chosen One, and all that. He uses magic. He brings with him his treasured wand and his Invisibility Cloak.
His wiki:
Harry will start on top of the Shine Gate with Link.

I will post my other two team members and begin my arguments in Round 2, after my opponent posts his or her team members.

Oh, and thanks to MTGandP for coming up with the entire concept of Ultimate Team War!



I shall choose the location of Rico Harbor.
All Pokemon should, as in Mystery Dungeon, have all available abilities. This means your Charizard additionally has Solar Power, while Zapdos also gets LightningRod and Vaporeon gets Hydration. All Pokemon should be at level 100 for the sake of fairness in comparison between Pokemon.

1. Zapdos
It shall be the one mentioned here:
It is essentially a large, Electric/Flying bird of destruction.
Zapdoswill start perched at the top of the obscure building thing at Rico Harbor.

2. Alakazam
It shall be this one:
It is a Psychic type with a rediculously high IQ and powerful Psychic attacks, including Teleport, which is always fun. It shall start meditating on top of one of the buidings.

3. Albus Dumbledore
Known as the most powerful wizard, he shall be using the Elder Wand.
He is standing next to Alakazam.

4. Vaporeon
This one:
The Water evolution of the Evolution Pokemon, it can melt into the water and reappear elsewhere. It has Water Absorb and Hydration.
Vaporeon is melted into the water. He he!

5. Midna
She is a Twili Imp of great power. She possesses the Fused Shadows. She can turn into shadow or Twilight particles.
Midna is currently Alakazam's shadow.

May the battle commence.
Debate Round No. 1


Thank you, mongoose, for accepting this debate.

My opponent first claims that Charizard has Solar Power, Zapdos has LightningRod, and Vaporeon has Hydration. However, these abilities are only present on Pokemon from the Dream World, a world introduced in Generation V. None of the Pokemon involved are from the Dream World, which doesn't exist in the anime, so none of them have Dream World abilities.

Now, for my team members:

4. Blue-Eyes White Dragon
This legendary dragon is a powerful engine of destruction. Virtually invincible, very few have faced this awesome creature and lived to tell the tale.
His wiki:
He shall start atop the Shine Gate.

5. Gyarados
Once Gyarados goes on a rampage, its ferociously violent blood doesn't calm until it has burned everything down. There are records of this Pokémon's rampages lasting a whole month.
More speficically, I use Misty's Gyarados.
His wiki:
He shall start in the water.

And... start!

Link hops atop Blue-Eyes, and Harry jumps on Charizard, who quickly flies up. The two dragons fly towards Ricco Harbor, as Gyarados moves in by sea. Harry casts a Bedazzling Hex on Gyarados so that it becomes invisible. Zapdos will be the first enemy visible, especially if it is trying to take out Gyarados. Link can fire a single Ice Arrow to freeze it; leaving it an easy target for a Hyper Beam KO.

When the two dragons arrive at Ricco Harbor, Harry quickly fires an Expelliarmus at Dumbledore, disarming him, as Blue-Eyes fires White Lightning at Alakazam, KOing him and destroying Midna, who is particularly weak to light. If that doesn't work, Charizard's Flamethrower and Link's Light Arrow will do the trick. Dumbledore will surely be knocked unconscious in the resulting explosions. Any survivors of that onslaught will be consumed by Harry's Fiendfyre spell.

This leaves only Vaporeon. Link can hop atop Gyarados, and using a combination of Chateau Romani and the Lens of Truth, he can easily find where Vaporeon hides. From there, Gyarados can fire a destructive Hyper Beam into the water, KOing Vapoeron.

That's all five enemy characters down in three paragraphs. Good luck, mongoose!


First off, my opponent has flat out denied my Pokemon's additional abilities. This bums me out. HIs primary argument is that they were introduced in Generation V, before any of the Pokemon in question. However, abilities themselves were introduced in Generation III. They have been retroactively given to Pokemon in the anime, however, as Ash's Pikachu, introduced in Gen I, has been shown to have the ability Static. HIs other argument relies on them being from Dream World. Now, in the movie, Pikachu used multiple electric attacks on Zapdos, none of which dealt it damage. It would seem that they possibly introduced this ability long before establishing it. Dream World abilities are also known as "Hidden Abilities." It would make sense that this Zapdos, having been created a long time ago, would have discovered this hidden ability. And how does my opponent know that Dream World doesn't exist in the anime? Hmm?

While my opponent is sending his team to Ricco Harbor, my team is setting up. Zapdos uses Rain Dance. negating Charizard's Solar Power. Alakazam sets up Reflect, Safeguard, and Light Screen. Vaporeon uses Aqua Ring. Midna uses the power of the Fused Shadows to turn into the giant Twilit beast thing.

As Team Mongeese approaches, Zapdos uses Thunder on Gyarados. Even though Link is trying to freeze it with an Ice Arrow, it is raining, they are far away, and Zapdos is flying in an erratic pattern, making it very difficult to hit. Even though Gyarados is invisible, Thunder has infinite accuracy. Because it is Water/Flying, and thus double-weak to Electric attacks, and Zapdos gets STAB for being an Electric type, Gyarados has no chance.

Once the two dragons are near the harbor, Vaporean leaps from the water and fires an Ice Beam straight at the Blue-Eyes White Dragon. It being, arguably, a Dragon/Flying type, it would be completely frozen to death, and plummet into the water with Link on it. Now Link is in the water, at the mercy of the Vaporeon. He can be dealt with later.

Charizard is severely weakened by the rain. Dumbledore casts a Flame-Freezing Charm on Charizard, essentially rendering all of it's fire attacks useless! Fun! Meanwhile, Alakazam is uses Trick on Harry Potter, stealing his wand. Dumbledore can easily protect himself from a simple Expelliarmus charm with Protego. He then fires Avada Kadavra, killing Harry instantly. Vaporeon can use Hydro Pump to essentially destroy Charizard easily. Charizard is generally useless in the rain.

Link is still in the water. Either Vaporeon can kill him with Surf, or Alakazam can use Psychic, levitate him in the air, and have everybody use whatever attack they like (Hydro Pump, magical spear of doom, Thunder, Avada Kadavra, etc.) At that point it's clear who wins.

Essentially, my opponent tries to attack my well prepared team and can't be ready for what they meet when they get there. If Blue-Eyes does manage to get a White Lightning Attack in, Zapdos's Lightning Rod ability would not only draw the attack to it, but allow it to absorb its energy to increase its own attack power. Otherwise, Alakazam can use a simple Protect.

All my opponent's plans depend on my team being sitting ducks just waiting for him to kill him. He gets to learn the hard way that that's not how it works.
Debate Round No. 2


Thank you, mongoose, for accepting this debate.

He continues to insist that Pokémon have their Dream World abilities. He bases this on the fact that Zadpos took no damage from Pikachu's electricity in the second movie. However, Pikachu also received no damage from Zapdos' electricity. This was because they were communicating using electricity, not attacking each other with it [1].

Additionaly, Pikachu, who would have received the Dream World ability Lightningrod if my opponent's arguments were true, hadbeen damaged by an Electabuzz's Thunderpunch in Season 2. The abilities would have to be added after Season 2, which is the same season that Zapdos is from, so in the movie, Zapdos did not have LightningRod.

He also usesthe fan term "Hidden Ability" to make Zapdos finding the ability plausible, but all Pokémon in the games only gain abilities when they are born. Zapdos is no exception.

I would also like to invoke Rule #6. As Dream World abilities are not present in the anime, Zapdos cannot have its Dream World ability.

Now, he also has Zapdos use Rain Dance. Harry can counter with Meteolojinx Recanto.
He also wants Alakazam to use numerous setup moves, but Alakazam never actually uses those moves in the anime, and we can't assume that it knows every move it can possibly learn. If it could, when it battled Corphish, it would have been using Thunderpunch or Thunderboltinstead of Focus Punch. Alakazam does not have those convenient setup moves.
Same goes for Vaporeon's Aqua Ring, which is made more ridiculous by the fact that Aqua Ring is a Generation IV attack, and no Vaporeon from Generaton I, like the one my opponent chose, would possibly have it.

Now, as I predicted, Zapdos will be the first encounter. As Zapdos fires a Thunder attack on Gyarados, Gyarados uses Protect, negating the attack. As Zapdos has to concentrate it energy while attacking, Link can surprise it with an Ice Arrow, freezing it. Gyarados follows up with a Hyper Beam, KOing it. I also really can't see a Zapdos, large as it is, flying erratically. That's what hummingbirds do, not eagles.
Also note that the rest of my team is actually flying towards Zapdos, intending to intercept it. If Zapdos ever fires at the dragon brigade instead, a Protego from Harry will do the trick of stopping it, and Link's Ice Arrow will still work wonders in damaging and freezing Zapdos.

Vaporeon also intends to surprise everyone with a sneak Ice Beam attack. Link can fire a Fire Arrow to negate the attack, easily. Vaporeon is rather far away, anyway. Ricco Harbor puts at least 200 feet between the water and the top of a building, and Blue-Eyes is flying another 100 feet above that. This distance gives Link more time to intercept the attack, and Blue-Eyes more time to dodge it. To be safe, Charizard can intercept the beam with Flamethrower, a sure negation, and Harry could protect Blue-Eyes with a Protego.
Even if Blue-Eyes were hit, Link would defrost it with an Ice Arrow, as he did with the Masked Mechanical Bull Goht. Blue-Eyes would continue to fly towards his target, Alakazam.

Additionally, firing Ice Beam would expose Vaporeon to Gyarados, who just swam into Ricco Harbor invisibly. A Hyper Beam would blast Vaporeon into the wall of the harbor, knocking it unconscious. The beam would also damage Ricco Harbor's structure, causing the buildings to shake, ruining the concentration of Alakazam and Dumbledore.

To take out Charizard, my opponent wants to use a Flame-Freeze charm on Charizard, but the charm works on fire, not fire-attributed beasts. The charm can counter individual attacks, but not all of Charizard's future attacks.
If the charm ever does work by some violation of the rules of magic, Charizard will drop Harry off with Blue-Eyes and go take a dip in Mt. Corona to refresh himself. Maybe he will even stay a while.

As for Alakazam using Trick, this runs into the same problem mentioned earlier with using so many moves. There's also the question as to whether or not he can hit a moving foe with the move. Pokémon battles are held in standstill, and in the anime, the target was also still. Alakazam would have a difficult time taking Harry's wand away from him, and is also distracting himself from the true threat: Blue-Eyes White Dragon.

Harry's Expelliarmus may have been blocked, but it has distracted Dumbledore; in negating Expelliarmus, he has no hope of negating White Lightning, which will obliterate him. Avada Kedavra would also be useless, as Charizard can fly out of the way of the attack or block the attack himself; it wont work on a creature as powerful as Charizard. Charizard and Blue-Eyes then jointly destroy the building that Alakazam and Dumbledore were standing on, KOing them with it. If the two of them try to fend off the double-dragon attack, to no avail, Gyarados can fire a Hyper Beam from the water, destroying them anyway.

As for Vaporeon using Hydro Pump, again, the distance is just too much. Pokémon have dodged attacks on the ground that came from less than 50 feet away; with the mobility of air, Charizard will never be hit from 100 feet away, let alone 300. Harry could cast Impervius, making Charizard immune to water and negating the negative effects of the rain (assuming Harry's magic didn't eliminate it already), and use a Protego as well, just in case.

My opponent also makes the faulty assumption that Link will let himself be killed in the water. On the contrary, he will don the Zora mask, allowing him extreme mobility in the water. He also has a magical shield attack that can be used in conjunction with his superhuman swimming speed and the Lens of Truth to take down Vaporeon like no tomorrow. The Chateau Romani will help in this regard, giving Link three whole days of magic power. After Vaporeon is gone, Link can hop atop Gyarados and lead the charge of destroying the rest of Team CON. His rain of arrows will certainly be a surprise to them, as they left Link for hopeless. If Gyarados and the rest of Team PRO has been defeated, by some breach of logic, Link can hide anywhere in the water of Isle Delfino, and Team CON has no way of finding him at all without Vaporeon, forcing a draw.

This still leaves the Twilit Beast Midna. Given her weakness to light, and Blue-Eyes' LIGHT attribute, a White Lightning attack will probably remind Midna of the traumatic experience of being exposed to a Light Spirit. That attack almost killed her. This attack certainly will. To add to her demise, Link can fire a Light Arrow, with light powerful enough to stun Ganon. Midna is almost useless in this fight.

My opponent also assumes that Zapdos, if it had LightningRod, would absorb a White Lightning attack. However, White Lightning is just the American name for the real attack name, Burst Stream of Destruction. It's not actual lightning, it just looks like lightning. Besides, Zapdos was already defeated when it tried to take on Gyarados.
As for Alakazam using Protect, Anabel's Alakazam doesn't know Protect. It can't use it.

I would like to highlight that my opponent relies on Vaporeon to take down Charizard and Blue-Eyes. When Vaporeon is taken down by Gyarados or Link, these two become essentially unstoppable. Additionally, Charizard can fly into Mt. Corona, where the lava heals him. What can anyone on Team CON do to defeat Charizard at that point? Nobody else can survive the intense heat. Charizard would be able to fire Flamethrowers from within the volcano, forcing a draw.

To conclude, the joint attack by my team, as well as the poor placement of my opponent's team members, makes this an easy fight in my favor. Good luck with your next round, mongoose!



First off, I have new evidence to Zapdos having Lightning rod. The Ruby/Sapphire Pokedex entry: "Zapdos is a legendary bird Pokémon that has the ability to control electricity. It usually lives in thunderclouds. The Pokémon gains power if it is stricken by lightning bolts" [1]. This is essentially a description of Lightning Rod, except for the attraction of Electric attacks.

Additionally, its power to use Rain Dance creates massing thunderstorms: "This legendary bird Pokémon causes savage thunderstorms by flapping its glittering wings" [1]. This is a very powerful storm. It is very doubtful that a simple jinx could get rid of it, which was only historically used to remove a simple magical rain from an office. It probably can't remove this storm brought on by a legendary Pokemon.

He also doesn't think that Alakazam can use the defensive moves I want it to. For the sake of keeping the debate focused on the actual fight, I will not have him use Light Screen or Safeguard, but he shall use Reflect, as he learns it through level-up. Also during set up, Dumbledore will use a Disillusionment Charm on himself, Alakazam, and Midna, who are all relatively small. Midna shall, instead of using the Fused Shadows, float away and around the opponent.

Now, I doubt that a Bedazzling Hex could make an entire Gyarados turn invisible. The only evidence of this spell has been that it could make Invisibility cloaks, which are much smaller and completely inanimate. It is doubtful that it is so simple to make a giant sea serpent invisible.

My opponent says Link will fire an Ice Arrow at Zapdos. However, Zapdos will, instead of trying to attack a distant Gyarados, fire a Thunder attack back at the Blue-Eyes White Dragon, which would go through the arrow, completely destroying it, and continue to shock the Blue-Eyes. In the rain, it has infinite accuracy. This electric shock may not be enough to kill the dragon, it being a Dragon to combat it's original Flying weakness, but it should be more than enough to kill Link, who is unable to drive the charge of the attack into the ground. He dies and falls off. Any Harry may attempt a Shield Charm, but according to the wiki: "The Shield Charm is a charm that creates a magical barrier which deflects minor to moderate hexes as well as any physical entities" [3]. Thunder, being the most powerful Electric attack coming from one of the most powerful Electric Pokemon, is nothing close to moderate.

As far as Zapdos being unable to easily dodge attacks in the air, for future reference, it can. It learns Detect by level-up. This allows it to temporarily dodge everything with ease. [3]

Next my opponent claims that Vaporeon's Ice Beam will not hit the Blue-Eyes. His two main defenses are to kill the beam with fire, and to dodge it. However, it is raining. This rain would put out the Fire Arrow and greatly weaken the Flamethrower. the video at 1:38. That is the speed of Ice Beam. It would be impossible to intercept the beam AT AN ANGLE. That would require rediculous timing. After using the Ice Beam, it could just hide back in the water, easily avoiding the rather slow Gyarados that wandered into the harbor. At this point Zapdos will focus its attention on Gyarados, and both it and Vaporeon will take it down with a combination of Thunder and Ice Beam.

So Alakazam will not use Trick. However, if the Blue-Eyes is still there to kill them, which in itself is doubtful, then he can use Teleport to put both himself and Dumbledore in the air behind Charizard, where Dumbledore can use Avada Kadavra to kill Harry. Alakazam can use Psychic.

If my opponent tries to switch up who fights who, then Vaporeon or Zapdos can easily take out Charizard, who is almost worthless in the rain, and use their elemental attacks to defeat Harry. Ice Beam would surely take out Blue-Eyes if it tried to attack them.

If Link does end up in the water, then Zapdos can take him out with Thunder, or Vaporeon with Ice Beam. Zora Link is weak to Ice.

If Charizard tries to stall out in a volcano, then he will starve as my team eats fruit from the island. Also, Vaporeon could use Hydro Pump to fill the volcano with water, killing Charizard.

In conlcusion, Team Mongoose wins.


Debate Round No. 3


Thank you, mongoose, for your response.

First, he identifies Zapdos as having powers similar to LightningRod. While these powers are canon, the LightningRod ability itself is not, as my Pikachu example demonstrated. Additionally, I'm not using any electric-based attacks, so the disputed power of Zapdos doesn't even matter.

As for Harry's "simple jinx," remember that this is Harry Potter, no ordinary wizard, able to master a Patronus at the age of 13 when most adult wizards couldn't handle the charm. As a fail-safe, if the jinx doesn't work, Harry will cast a Fiendfyre instead. This fire will target the rainclouds, evaporating them quickly, leaving Isle Delfino as sunny as ever. After the fire is done with the storm, it will go for Team CON, burning them to numerous crisps.

My opponent wishes for Alakazam to use Reflect. This is okay, but what good is it? It just creates a wall in front of Alakazam that doesn't seem particularly useful at any time in this war. He also wants Dumbledore to use Disillusionment Charms on his team, but this wasn't part of the plan, and there is no reason that Dumbledore would make himself invisible now but not in the original plan. Even if they worked, the Lens of Truth and Specialis Revelio or Aparecium will reveal the presence of invisible foes. As for Midna, for what reason does she no longer assume her Twilit Monster form? It cannot be because of my attacks, because they occur in the future, and Team CON has no way of knowing that the attack will come.

If Harry's Bedazzling Hex doesn't work on Gyarados, a Disillusionment Charm can be used for a similar effect. The charm has been used on Hippogriffs before by wizards much weaker than Harry, so Gyarados won't be a problem.

We now come to the Zapdos attack. Here's how it's going to go:
A wild Zapdos appeared!
Gyarados used Protect!
Zapdos used Thunder!
Gyarados protected itself!
Link used Ice Arrow!
Zapdos was frozen solid!
Gyarados used Hyper Beam!
Charizard used Dragonbreath!
Harry used Sectumsempra!
Zapdos fainted!

In Round 2, mongoose knew of the dragon brigade's advancement, but Zapdos attacked Gyarados. Why would Zapdos attack Blue-Eyes instead? Because Gyarados has Protect? Zapdos doesn't get to know that Thunder will fail on Gyarados until using the attack on Gyarados, at which point it's too late, as Zapdos has been frozen.

Even if the attack could be redirected at Blue-Eyes, it wouldn't do Zapdos any good. For one thing, Thunder takes a while to use [1; 16:39 - 16:49]. Link, standing on Blue-Eyes' head, would take about half a second to aim and half a second to fire an Ice Arrow after Zapdos was finished using Detect. It takes about four seconds for a Thunder attack to be initiated. Zapdos will be out cold well before it can actually attack. Secondly, even if Zapdos hits the arrow, the arrow will absorb the entire Thunder attack, and the electricity will be conducted to the metal tip of the arrow. Another Ice Arrow will soon follow, and then another, until Zapdos is frozen. Furthermore, even if the shock got through the arrow, it still has to get through Blue-Eyes' counterattack, White Lightning. The two beasts will match each other's attacks for some time, during which time Zapdos can be frozen or attacked by Harry, Gyarados, and Charizard. And if the Thunder miraculously reaches Blue-Eyes (going through Harry's weakening Protego [2]), Link can still jump to avoid being shocked; after going through Blue-Eyes, the electricity won't be nearly as powerful as before, and Link would survive the shock anyway. He's been shocked numerous times before without so much as a scratch, as electricity is a popular form of attack in the Zelda universe, and Team Rocket never seems to die from any Pokémon attack. Even if he fell, a fall is nothing to Link; he might take a few hearts of damage, but he'll still walk away, or even run if necessary.

Next, we come to Ice Beam. I've given reasons why the rain has been cancelled, and even in the rain, Flamethrower is powerful enough to take down an Ice Beam. Attacking things at angles is at this point second nature to Link and Charizard, who have been using such projectile attacks for years each. The video may make Ice Beam appear fast, but we even get a shot of how close Sceptile and Darkrai are to each other; there's almost no distance between them. If there was distance, Sceptile would have dodged. At 300 feet, Blue-Eyes will have no problem dodging. My opponent also ignores the Protego defense and the Fire Arrow cure.

Gyarados will destroy Vaporeon with Hyper Beam while Vaporeon is missing Blue-Eyes with Ice Beam, before it can hide back in the water.

We now come to the battle between the dragon brigade (with Gyarados support in the harbor) and the team of Alakazam and Dumbledore. When Alakazam teleports, it will either be immediate or delayed. If it is delayed, then the two of them will be destroyed long before Teleport actually kicks in. If it is immediate, Dumbledore will have no time to react before falling to his death. Teleporting in the air probably wasn't a good choice for a man his age.

Even if Dumbledore survives the fall, while falling, he will have no way of accurately casting any spell, let alone Avada Kedavra, especially against Harry, who is ready to dodge by apparating. Harry will be able to apparate to right next to where Dumbledore would fall, killing Dumbledore with Avada Kedavra. Dumbledore, concentrating on not dying from the fall, will be unable to dodge.

Meanwhile, Charizard engages Alakazam in the air. Anabel's Alakazam was, in the anime, defeated by a lone Corphish. He will not be able to defeat a Charizard, much more powerful than Corphish.

If either Charizard or Harry seems to be struggling in their fight, White Lightning will easily turn the tides, and so could Link's Light Arrows.

Vaporeon will never get a chance to fight Charizard, because none of Vaporeon's attacks are reliable from a hundred feet away. Charizard will never attack Zapdos without proper backup. If Vaporeon ever attack Blue-Eyes with Ice Beam, Blue-Eyes can fire White Lightning as a counterattack, overpowering the beam and destroying Vaporeon.

If Charizard is under siege in the volcano, he can still outlast Team CON. The regenerating fruits on Isle Delfino would be wiped out in the flash flood that occurs ten minutes into the war. In the constant temperatures of the Volcano, Charizard will be much more comfortable than Team CON, and use up less energy, starving later. If Charizard brings Link into the volcano with him, Link can put on the Goron Mask to become a Goron, who can live by eating rocks. There's enough rock in Mt. Corona to outlast Team CON. The idea of Vaporeon flooding a volcano with water is laughable. The water would evaporate almost instantly; Vaporeon would tire out before making any visible effect on the volcano's structure.

Now, if Link finds himself in the water for whatever reason, he won't go down nearly as easy as my opponent supposes. With the Zora Mask, he can transform into Zora Link, then use magic power to create an electrical shield around himself. With the shield, Link can quickly swim into Vaporeon; it's super effective! Hiding as water molecules won't help; if the water is shocked, the water will undergo hydrolysis and separate into gases, killing Vaporeon. From there, Link can rejoin the fight. If he's the last one left, he can hide out underwater; after the flood, he has lots of hiding places to choose from. Team CON will starve out before they find him; meanwhile, he can live on Delfino fish.

To conclude, while my opponent puts forth okay strategies, the combined power of my team members can easily overpower them.




First, I am glad we resolved the LightningRod issue.

Second, it doesn't matter how powerful of a wizard Harry is. It still wouldn't be nearly the natural power of Zapdos. The effect of the jinx itself is in question. We have no way of knowing how long it's effect takes, or how much rain it was able to stop. This is an all-out THUNDERSTORM. The attempt to kill it with fire is laughable. He is attempting to evaporate CLOUDS. That doesn't even make sense. The fire will naturally put itself out at some point, when it runs out of fuel, and more thunderstorms will be continuously created by Zapdos' presence. This would also take extreme concentration from Harry, who already has to concentrate on making Gyarados invisible. All in all, it is a difficult task, too much for Harry to accomplish without leaving himself in the open for attack.

My opponent says that the Disillusionment Charm wasn't a part of the plan. That isn't what this debate is about. I'm not "making a plan." I'm explaining how my team would win. Dumbledore is much smarter than me, and so is Alakazam (by a LOT). They would follow this plan. "The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team." This is how they would win. After the trio is invisible, they being their teleportation to attack Team Mongeese.

My opponent believes that Dumbledore will fall to his death. He could easily and quickly cast Arresto Momentum to stop his fall. He cast it from a very large distance without a wand to stop Harry's large fall. By using before he even begins falling, he doesn't fall at all.

My opponent seems to be under the impression that the invisible trio are waiting for the dragons to arrive before teleporting. This is false. This is going on at the same time that Zapdos and Vaporeon are on the offensive. He can't be defending from both at once.

Next he wonders why Zapdos isn't killing Gyarados. This is because Zapdos doesn't see a Gyarados, it being invisible. It sees a Blue-Eyes White Dragon. In the video I have provided, Pikachu uses Thunder in less than a second. around 4:32. Bulbapedia has declared that attack Thunder. Note that the video my opponent provided was the very first time that Ash's Pikachu ever used Thunder, as it had just learned it. Zapdos would be extremely experienced with it, being Lv. 100. It would also be very difficult for Link to aim at Zapdos, as it would be dark until it was lit up by its Thunder attack, at which point it would be too late. Also, Link is not great at jumping. He only does so to jump a gap, and never stays in the air for very long at all. Jumping while on a dragon would be difficult. It would probably strike before the arrow is released, as Link must pull out his pow, pull out an arrow, wait for the magic of the Ice Arrow to apply, find Zapdos, and fire. The power of the charge would not be containable by the sole metal tip of the arrow. The arrow would melt or explode. The vast majority of the attack would hit Blue-Eyes. The Protego charm would also be difficult to use to protect a giant dragon. If the dragon tries to counterattack, then it is not able to try to dodge Vaporeon's Ice Beam. So the only defense left is Charizard's Flamethrower, however, this would have to combat the rain and the timing. He's also being distracted by the invisible trio.

Link would take several hearts of damage, and fall off. When hit by attacks, he falls off his horse. This would be no different.

So, as Vaporeon defeats Blue-Eyes, Gyarados hits it with Hyper Beam. Vaporeon is not Knocked Out, as it has high HP. It swims away in the water and uses Aqua Ring to slowly heal itself. It learns this attack by level-up.

Now to discuss what the three invisible team members are doing. They are attacking Harry and Charizard. This would make it difficult for the two of them to protect Blue-Eyes from Thunder and Ice Beam. Dumbledore unleashes Avada Kadavra on Harry, and if he dodges, will hit Charizard instead. Alakazam uses Psychic to control Harry's motion and slam him into the lava in the volcano, which would kill him. Midna punches Harry in the face with her hair, similar to how she shattered Zant.

After Gyarados uses Hyper Beam, Zapdos is able to hit it with a Thunder, as it both knows where it is, and after using the attack it is more exposed and would have difficulty using Protect. Thunder would take it out in an instant.

My opponent argues that an Alakazam lost to a Corphish. Ash pretty much cheated. He recalled Corphish then sent it right back out to cure its Confusion, and instantly used an attack to Knock Out Alakazam. That was poor sportsmanship. In the real fight previously, Alakazam won, and continued to Knock Out a Tauros and damage Pikachu.

Finally, my opponent's rediculous stall-out arguments. First of all, Charizard still needs to eat if is stays in the volcano, while my team eats food. Some of the food is in areas that aren't hit by the flood. These areas are next to the ocean, so it would be impossible for it to fill unless the entire ocean rose by many, many feet. This is not what the flash flood did. Second of all, water does work in the volcano. Mario used it there. FLUDD's water did not evaporate. Vaporeon has much more water than FLUDD ever did, and is constanly refreshed by the rain. It would be able to completely flood the volcano, flushing out Charizard, who would then be ultimately destroyed in such disadvantageous weather. This would also work on Goron Link.

Then there's Link. He would be able to last forever, but so would my team. However, Zapdos could use Thunder on the water, trying to hit him, and Dumbledore could use a Bubblehead charm to go underwater then kill him with Avada Kadavra. Vaporeon could flee with Quick Attack, then use Ice Beam from afar, killing Link easily as it is Zora Link's weakness.

In conclusion, stalling is dumb.
Debate Round No. 4


This is the last round, so my opponent may not introduce any new arguments this round.

Now, it's unlikely that the jinx takes any significant amount of time; spells are usually instantaneous. The spell just eliminates any magic weather effect; the extent of the weather is not an issue.

Now, as for the Fiendfyre, why doesn't it make sense? The fire would be so hot that the bonds that hold the clouds in shape break apart, leaving just water vapor again, unable to condense into water droplets. Any rain that was already falling would evaporate immediately. If Zapdos continues to make rain clouds, it will itself be caught in the Fiendfyre, and burned to a crisp.

My opponent questions Harry's concentration, but Harry has already sufficiently made Gyarados invisible before this spell, and only needs to concentrate long enough to get the fire into the air; after that, it will burn through all of the clouds, then descend. As the clouds are most tightly packed around Ricco Harbor, where Zapdos started, Ricco Harbor would soon be in flames, ruining most of Team CON. This would be done well before the fight with Zapdos was initiated.

He then questions the concept that teams can't undo previous moves. This seems rather self-explanatory. After my opponent tried a plan, Team PRO demonstrated why the plan would fail in ways Team CON hadn't predicted. They can't use this new information for a new plan. Round 4 is also rather late to come up with an entirely new plan; there's a reason this debate is five rounds. The introduction of a new "invisible trio" adds to the ridiculousness.

In any case, we return to Zapdos. My opponent claims that Zapdos isn't attacking Gyarados because Gyarados is invisible, but this clearly contradicts his Round 2 argument, in which Zapdos could attack an invisible Gyarados. With no reason for Zapdos to attack Blue-Eyes, Zapdos attacks Gyarados and fails, exposing it to an Ice Arrow, rendering Zapdos useless. To counter the video, it took an additional 1.5 seconds for Pikachu to prepare to use Thunder, with the additional second covering only the release of Thunder.

Claiming that Link would have difficulty aiming is an insult to his eyesight; the shadows of a thunderstorm are nothing compared to what he went though in the Shadow Temple. Link can jump not only over gaps but also in ninja-like back flips, gracefully avoiding Blue-Eyes' aftershock. The process of firing an arrow may seem like a while, but Link has superhuman dexterity in this regard, taking only about a second total to strike a foe with an Ice Arrow. Add the fact that Link had been preparing this shot since Zapdos was approaching, and Link's arrow is the fastest attack we're going to see in this war. There's no reason that an arrow can't contain a Thunder attack; an explosion would end the attack, allowing another arrow to be used in its place. My opponent concedes that Blue-Eyes can block the attack, which I've already pointed out will result in Zapdos' inevitable destruction, with the only side effect being a sneak attack from Vaporeon. My opponent claims that Protego won't be able to protect an entire Blue-Eyes, but the shield need only defend against a single Ice Beam at a single point, easily blocked by magic. As this size difficulty, my opponent's only objection to this point, has been done away with, Protego now indisputably saves Blue-Eyes. Vaporeon will only get in one Ice Beam, because after that, Vaporeon has volunteered to become Gyarados' lunch.

Now, even if this did work, and Link was hit, he'd only fall off and take some damage, but he'd be far from out. A drink of Chateau Romani would refresh him, and he'd be back in the fight; after taking out Vaporeon with the undisputed Zora method, he'd climb on Gyarados and become king of the world! The entire Thunder attack comes down to dealing irrelevant damage to Link and exposing Zapdos to a Burst Stream of Destruction, which would destroy it.

Vaporeon will attack Blue-Eyes, only to be blocked by a simple Protego. Gyarados then gets his revenge. The Hyper Beam will not be what knocks out Vaporeon, but the resulting collision of flesh and solid rock as Vaporeon hits the wall. I've refuted Aqua Ring in Round 3 by pointing out that the generations don't match, so this really isn't the time to bring it up again.

We now come to the newly-formed invisible trio, which isn't really invisible with Harry Potter present. Charizard will block any attempts at Avada Kedavra; I pointed out that this wouldn't affect Charizard in Round 3, uncontested. Dumbledore, meanwhile, has no protection from Harry's own Killing Curse, although protecting Blue-Eyes is a priority. Harry was able to maintain control over his own body during the Imperious Curse, and fending off Alakazam's Psychic will be no different; he'll shrug the attack off as if it were nothing. There's also the question of how Harry will get to the lava, considering how far Mt. Corona is from the battle site; Psychic almost never throws foes more than a few meters, not kilometers. As for Midna's Fused Shadow Hair Punch attack, this can be blocked with a conjured Patronus, stated to be a defense against Dark creatures and known to repel darkness, Midna being no exception. If my opponent is allowed so many retcons, then Harry had cast the Patronus before this fight broke out, so it can be used even while resisting Alakazam. The stag would run into Midna and destroy her. The dragon-rider duo will easily stall the trio until Link is finished freezing and destroying Zapdos to Blue-Eyes, at which point White Lightning enters the scene, utterly destroying Team CON.

If Zapdos, during all of this, somehow managed to survive, and tried to attack Gyarados, the attack would be Protected against, as expected, and Link and Blue-Eyes would jointly eliminate the distracted thunderbird without breaking a sweat, in the method I've been advocating since the beginning of this debate.

Another thing to note is that in Round 4, the only plan to defeat Charizard is to use spells, conceded to be useless against Charizard in Round 3, and water, made useless by Harry's Impervious, a point also conceded in Round 3. This leaves only Zapdos able to take down Charizard, and as Zapdos is eliminated very quickly in the war, Charizard is soon made invincible.

To conclude this war:
As Harry, Charizard, Link, and Blue-Eyes (the dragon brigade) are flying directly to Ricco Harbor, Gyarados travels along the water invisibly. Zapdos will be quickly visible, and a fight will break out in the air between Link, mounting Blue-Eyes, and Zapdos, ending with Zapdos freezing and being hit by White Lightning before it can shift from Detect to Thunder. Vaporeon springs up to attack Blue-Eyes, but is blocked by Harry's Protego, and consequently hunted down by Gyarados. Meanwhile, the not-so-invisible trio suddenly attacks Harry and Charizard, but Charizard blocks Dumbledore's spells, Harry resists Alakazam's mind tricks, and Midna is destroyed by Harry's Patronus. When Blue-Eyes and Link join in, Link fires Light Arrows and Blue-Eyes launches White Lightning to destroy Alakazam and Dumbledore easily, joined by Sectumsempra and Flamethrower. If Vaporeon somehow survives a Gyarados onslaught, probably by hiding, Zora Link hunts it down and destroys it.

Thank you, mongoose, for this debate. It was enjoyable, although I wish you wouldn't come up with new arguments so late in the debate, as they become difficult to argue over. Also, thank you to the readers for reading this long debate, and remind you of Rule #12, which describes the voting procedure for this debate. RFDs would also be much appreciated.

Good luck, mongoose, in your future Ultimate Team War debates; I'm confident that you haven't won this one.


First off, my opponent's argument about the "Air Lock" jinx are pure speculation. I love the way that in his first sentence he completely avoids absolutes, but in the second he makes it appear as clear as day. The only evidence of this jinx's existence is from when Hermione suggested Ron use it to "put out" a small office rain. Even if in the case of finding a small spider in the kitchen, the solution is to just step on it, one cannot make the assumption that this same action would work on a giant, 20-foot spider. Logic doesn't work that way.

Next he continues with his rediculous Fiendfyre argument. He's trying to set clouds on fire! This is made clear by his arguing the fire would spread among the clouds until it reaches Zapdos. I thought he was joking at first. Now, for one thing, storm clouds are about "500 to 13,000 feet (150 to 3,960 meters)" above sea level. [1] I do hope my opponent doesn't expect this curse to reach that high.

So it would seem that first Harry makes Gyarados invisible. However, after he uses Fiendfyre, he must remain in control of it, or it kill try to kill him, similarly to how it did end up killing Crabbe after he cast it. It would make sense that it requires constant control. This would distract Harry forever. Additionally, the clouds are NOT packed near Ricco Harbor. They are evenly distributed. The clouds are called from the sides to surround the entire island, not just Rico Harbor.

My opponent seems to be misinterpreting my arguments that my team would do something different. The rules say: "The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team." This is how they would win. They are smarter than me and would have thought of this before. Did I mention that Alakazam has an IQ of 5000 and is psychic? Yes, I did. The debate has five rounds to allow for more arguing. You have had your round to argue against it, and you seem to have failed. Any so-called "self-explanation" is apparantly absent.

Zapdos isn't attacking Gyarados because Gyarados hasn't appeared yet. It is still travelling, as it is slower than the rest of my opponent's Pokemon. So it does attack Blue-Eyes. My opponent's argument that Link's eyesight is full of glory comes from the Shadow Temple. However, then there was more light than there is now, and was controlled by a player, who typically cannot see very well. And where did he get this argument that Link has been preparing this Ice Arrow? Last I checked he wasn't psychic. Blue-Eyes may be able to block it with White Lightning, but the arrow would also be destroyed. After Vaporeon's Ice Beam, Blue-Eyes would die and fall, with Link entering the water. Harry is currently being attacked by a certain invisible trio.

Next I will address the Hyper Beam argument. My opponent thinks a single Hyper Beam would knock Vaporen into a wall. Given that they are fighting in the sea, between Ricco Harbor and Delfino Plaza, a don't think there is a wall available. "The wall" is rather vague. Vaporeon instead would be knocked into the water. This would have little damaging effect on Vaporeon, as it is Water-type and has the ability Water Absorb, so if the impact had any effect, it would heal it.

Now back to the invisible trio vs. the dragon rider. So, what is Harry using? It would appear that he has used a Patronus, Disillusionment Charm, and I'll go ahead and figure that he hasn't attempted to fight the rain, as he would be smarter than my opponent and see that his plan wouldn't work. He is now trying to perform both the Killing Curse and a Protego at the same time. He could only focus on one battle. My opponent insists that Harry's resistance to the Imperious curse translates to resistance to Psychic. However, Imperio is mind-control, while Psychic is body control. With it, Alakazam has control over the movement of Harry's body, not his mind. He can then slam him into the volcano. It woudln't be difficult, as he could just float to the volcano with him. If that wouldn't work, he could slam him repeated into the side of said volcano.

I will now laught at my opponent's argument that Harry could shrug it off "like it was nothing." It's a rediculous arguement. Harry had to put all of his energy into resisting the Imperious curse. It wasn't easy at all. This is irrelevant, but I want to point out my opponent's overconfidence in his own team.

My opponent argues that Harry had cast a Patronus charm being even seeing Midna. This fails for several reasons. For one, Harry is not a supergenius. He would not see the attack coming. For another, the Patronuses can't fly. It would have no use in the mid-air battle. My opponent argues that the stag would run into Midna. Run, not fly.

So Charizard is immune to magic and water (another spell that Harry seems to have cast in the small amount of time he had). He is still killable by Zapdos, which he is actually weak to, and Midna, with her Hair Punch/Stab thing. Vaporeon can still hit it with Ice. Alakazam can use Psychic.

My opponent insists that Gyarados is using Protect right after using Hyper Beam. This is funny, because a Pokemon is unable to do anything right after using Hyper Beam, as it must recharge. "Metagross had to just take the attack, being unable to move after Hyper Beam" [2]. It would be struck and killed.

In conclusion, this is what happens:


Harry Disillusions Gyarados and mounts Charizard, soon casting Impervious on it.

Charizard begins to fly towards the harbor.

Link gets out his bow (he couldn't charge an arrow because he doesn't know what he's about to see)

Blue-Eyes flies towards the harbor.

Gyarados awaits invisibility, then slowly swims to the harbor it is not particularly fast).

Zapdos uses Rain Dance then advances towards the plaza.

Vaporeon gets ready to use an attack.

Dumbledore cast Disillusionment charms on himself, Alakazam, and Midna.

Alakazam teleports them to behind Harry and Charizard, at which point Dumbledore really quickly casts Arresto Momentum.

Midna smiles.


Zapdos fires at Link and Blue-Eyes, who strike back, causing a mid-air explosion, huring nobody.

Vaporeon fires its Ice Beam at Blue-Eyes, killing it, as Harry is disracted as I will mention later.

Gyarados fires Hyper Beam, which then knocks Vaporeon into the... water.

Link falls into the ocean.

Charizard attempts to block Avada Kadavra.

Harry tries to kill Dumbledore with Avada Kadavra.

Alakazam uses Psychic on Harry and begins dragging him towards the volcano.

Midna kills Harry in midair with Hair Attack of Doom.


As Link climbs on a recharging Gyarados, Zapdos Thunders the two of them to death.

Vaporeon fires Hydro Pump at Charizard, which does no good.

Charizard tries to defend against the insible trio, with no given plan. Presumably with Dragon Claw or something. Inevitably, he is bested by Psychic and Magical Hair.

In conlucion, team Mongoose has won, largely because my opponent has made many sourceless claims that don't have sources that even exist. This is not allowed.

Thank you for this wonderful debate.


Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by tvellalott 7 years ago
This was a very close battle, however, I think mongoose made the better rebuttals. His final conclusion was very good.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
19146, an RFD would be much appreciated.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
24 hours without a single vote? Odd.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
Gyarados was supposed to serve as a distraction for Link to defeat Zapdos with an Ice Arrow. It would have worked if Zapdos didn't magically shift targets, but in that case, Gyarados can't get hit by Zapdos anyway.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
Picking Gyrados when your opponent has Zapdos: a bad choice.
Posted by mongoose 7 years ago
Haha, understanding who is fighting tends to help considerably.
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 7 years ago
Nice job guys, completely ignorant of the individuals involved aside from Link so no way to make any sense out of the arguments, but entertaining to read.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
Few things annoy me in debate more than when arguments are introduced so late in the debate that a proper counter-argument is impossible, and there are over a thousand little holes within the counter-argument that could be easily patched up given the chance, but never get the chance.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago

I'm the king of everything!
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
Remember, Superman-level characters are banned.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by tvellalott 7 years ago
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: This was a close one and a fantastic battle guys. Victory to mongoose, which I'll explain in the comments...
Vote Placed by 19146md 7 years ago
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Total points awarded:70