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Ultimate Team War - Pandora

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/13/2011 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,267 times Debate No: 14315
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (64)
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This debate, by tvellalott's choice, will take place in the human encampment of Pandora, from the movie Avatar.

This is Ultimate Team War. Each debater must assemble a team of five characters, and the teams will then fight to the death(ish). Since we cannot have an actual real-life battle, each debater will explain why their team is superior during this debate.


Team leader: One of the debaters here, i.e. me or my opponent
Team member: One of the five chosen warriors.
Team Pro: My team.
Team Con: My opponent's team.


1. The fight will take place in the human encampmnt on Pandora, after all of the humans have left. The Na'vi people have been temporarily evacuated from Pandora for the pruposes of this fight; all other elements of Pandora remain in place. The time is currently mid-day, and Pandora is currently experiening daytime skies.
2. No team member may travel further than one mile from the furthest bounds of the encampment, or enter the planet further than one mile. No team member may escape Pandora's gravitational pull and go into orbit.
3. There will be no demi-god characters that are capable of travelling at ridiculous speeds, shattering almost any barriers in their way sustaining little damage to themselves, and wiping out anything, like Superman or Sentry, or anything more powerful than that. Nor will there be any unlimited powers that cannot be resisted. If you're in doubt, just ask.
4. Other illegal powers include time travel and mind control (taking over an opposing character).
5. Any team member must be either real or, if fictional, verifiably existent. No characters may be made up for the purpose of this debate.
6. In the case of a fictional character, the team member's abilities must be according to a specific canon chosen by the team leader.
7. Every character has only the equipment that they generally have in the specified canon, at almost all times, not equipment they only picked up a few times. They should be in their default state. If a character is arguably two individuals, the debater must pick one and stick with it through the entire debate.
8. Team members are absolutely loyal to the team leader. All team members are still subjected to their own emotions, however.
9. The team leader may not directly participate in the competition, but may only facilitate. The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team.
10. Neither team can have a member in common. If one team leader chooses a team member, the other team cannot have that character.
11. A team wins when all members of an opposing team are dead, unconscious, or essentially unusable. Characters who cannot be dead, unconscious, or unusable are not allowed.
12. The winning team automatically receives Arguments and Sources. Conduct, in addition to regular things, goes to the person who follows the rules most effectively. Please remember this rule.

Round 1: Rule specifications; PRO unveils first three team members, CON unveils all five team members. PRO also chooses the location of his team at the start of the fight; CON then chooses a different location at least X meters away from the one picked by PRO (determined based on the location).

Round 2: PRO unveils his final two team members and explains why his team is better. CON also begins his arguments.

Round 3, 4, 5: Arguments and rebuttals. CON may not present any new arguments during round 5, since PRO has no chance to rebut them.

Team Member 1: Paper Mario [1]

This is Mr. Nintendo in paper form. His main form of attack is still jumping, but he has the power to flip through dimension. He also has lots of items for use in battle, such as the Shooting Star and Flame Burst.

Team Member 2: Kirby [2]

Kirby is Popstar's gluttonous hero. He eats things and gains powers from them. He can also float on air, and can run very fast. I am using the anime canon.

Team Member 3: Venusaur [3]

More specifically, Spener's Venusaur, a twice-evolved Grass/Poison Pokémon. Anime canon. It's not very fast, but it's powerful.

I will post my other two team members and begin my arguments in Round 2, after my opponent posts his team members. Good luck, tvellalot!

Oh, and thanks to MTGandP for coming up with the entire concept of Ultimate Team War!



My team will consist of:

1. Sonic the Hedgehog (
2. Carnage (
3. Gray Fox (
4. The Invisible Women (
5. Aang (

They will start together, 1000 metres away from my opponents team.
Debate Round No. 1


Team Member 4: Crobat [1]

More specifically, Brock's Crobat, a twice-evolved Poison/Flying Pokémon. Anime canon. It is ridiculously quick, but doesn't have as much physical strength, though it is still formidable.

Team Member 5: Harry Potter [2]

Harry is an Auror, a powerful wizard. He's also the Boy who Lived, and the Chosen One, and all that. He uses magic. He brings with him his treasured wand and his Invisibility Cloak.

And... start!

At the first second, Mario puts on his Space Helmet [3] and Harry casts a Bubble-Head Charm [4]. Harry immediately follows with a Shield Charm [5] around the area.

Everybody who can takes their first breath of Pandora's atmosphere.

Sonic, Carnage, Gray Fox, the Invisible Woman, and Aang all collapse from the toxicity [6].

Harry and Paper Mario have their own bubbles of pure air to breathe from, and remain unharmed.

Kirby doesn't breathe, he just inhales things. He remains unaffected.

Venusaur and Crobat, being Poison-type Pokémon, are immune to being poisoned, and can breathe without problems.

Team CON is quickly reduced to unconsciousness as Team PRO remains completely intact.

Team PRO wins.

Now, my opponent may argue that some of his team members have methods of surviving. While waiting for Team CON to either fall unconscious or approach Team PRO, Harry will cast a Disillusion Charm [7] on Crobat, and cast it an individual Shield Charm. Finally, a Protean Charm [8] will be cast on Crobat and a rock within the area, transformed to look like Crobat. With the charm, if Crobat is ever killed, the rock will change shape to signify this, allowing Harry to track Crobat's status and respond accordingly.

Crobat will then charge at Team CON's base, firing SonicBooms [9] at any survivors of the atmosphere. Carnage in particular will be ripped to shreds by SonicBoom, having an inherent weakness to sound waves.

The remainder of Team PRO's actions will depend entirely on the observable actions of Team CON, so I must wait for my opponent's reponse. My team may even change current plans if blitzed.

Well, that's all for now. Good luck, tvellalott.




Ok, my opponent is obviously underestimating the powers of the Invisible Women, Sue Storm. She is well capable of creating shields around each of my team-members heads and holding them there. She has been shown to be able to create a myriad of shapes for a long length of time. This would be at least as effective as Mario's fishbowl.

So that is exactly what she does; 0.5 seconds into the battle.

Note: I think these will be sufficient to protect my team (except perhaps Carnage, I'll give my opponent that) from the extent of the Sonic Boom attacks.

Now, Aang, Sonic and Gray Fox are sent out to scout. The Invisible Women and Carnage stay back, Carnage protecting the Invisible Women while she casts one large shield around them. She also makes herself invisible.

Sonic scouts ahead, looking for the Crobat. I give him the advantage of the Disillusionment charm, so Sonic will have to be vigilant to avoid sneak attacks. When Sonic does find Crobat, he immediately returns to Gray Fox and Aang. Sonic leads them back in the direction of Crobat (who may have pursued Sonic or fled) and begins air-bending and water-bending to create a muddy mist. Once Crobat is covered in mud, Gray Fox and Sonic both attack simultaneously, outflanking Crobat. Aang water-bends ice and balls of stone and hurls them at Crobat. The result is an obliterated Crobat and perhaps one mildly injured member of my team.

The team regroup and begin to search the island, again using Aang's bending to spray mud over everything.

Eventually the groups meet and the advantage of the Disillusionment charm and the Invisibility cloak are gone.

Aang attacks Harry Potter, using a myriad of Avatar bending techniques to destroy him. Given that Aang doesn't have the disadvantages Voldemort had and with the Avatar state, I think Aang would win this battle quite easily.

This leaves Gray Fox, the Invisible Women (albeit, distracted concentrating on the orbs and shielding herself), Carnage and Sonic to battle Paper Mario, Kirby and Venusaur.

Sonic is an equal match for Paper Mario, using his superior speed to prolong the battle.

Gray Fox attacks Venusaur, blasting him with his arm cannon and using his other arm to wield his katana. The advantage here is that any vine-based attack would be useless, sliced easily. Gray Fox focuses his blasts on Venusaur's face. Once he can cut his way close enough, he plunges his sword into Venusaur's head.

Finally, this leaves Carnage and Kirby. Kirby would most likely try to absorb Carnage, but I imagine this would cause complications. For one, opponents have been shown to be able to break out of Kirby's mouth hold (Super Smash Brothers for example) after a short amount of time, so with Carnage conjuring spikes out of every inch of his body, Kirby would have some difficulty absorbing Carnage. Once Carnage is free (whether Kirby absorbs him or not), he pelts Kirby with web, dodging his attacks until he is completely covered. Kirby hasn't been shown to have any significant strength and once incapacitated, would easily be finished. If Kirby were to absorb some of Carnages latent abilities, it would either be the spikes or the web, but I don't see the advantage it would give him.

All the while, Sue Storm is causing as much grief as possible for her opponents with any extra concentration she has.

Once Carnage is finished with Kirby and/or Gray Fox is finished with Venusaur, they assist Sonic is finishing Paper Mario.

Flawless Victory.
Debate Round No. 2


Thank you, tvellalot, for your response.

My opponent's plan to survive Pandora's harsh atmosphere involves Invisible Woman creating psionic space helmets for the team, imitating Mario's fishbowl. However, she can't actually create any breathable air herself, so what she's really doing is trapping the atmosphere around her team. A space helmet really doesn't help at all if the air it contains is the same as the air outside, and putting it on while your outside is utterly pointless.

Except for Mario, of course. It's because, while in outer space, Mario was actually able to put on the helmet with zero air around him, yet still be able to survive (Video 1; 4:30 - 4:42). The helmet contains air already, a quality that Invisible Woman can't match.

In short, Team CON still faints instantly, and PRO automatically wins. However, I shall entertain my opponent's arguments anyway, in case he comes up with a better method of survival.

My opponent claims that Invisible Woman's shields would protect most of his team from the SonicBoom attacks, but in order for Team CON to actually maneauver around, the shields would have to be rather flexible, making them much less effective as a shield.

Sonic has been sent to look for Crobat, but Team CON can't know that Crobat has been disillusioned, and even if Sonic did know that Crobat is invisible, it really doesn't help, because Sonic can't locate invisible things in the air. Crobat needs only fire a single SonicBoom at Sonic. Because the attack itself breaks the sound barrier with its high speed, hence the name, Sonic won't be able to hear it coming, and he already can't see it coming, so he's going to be hit by it, full force. The shield may buffer the damage somewhat, but that doesn't matter, because Sonic, by default, has no rings, and without rings to sustain him, he falls after a single hit. Sonic is incapacitated.

Gray Fox and Aang are meanwhile waiting for Sonic to return, and are going to be waiting for quite some time, not realizing that Sonic has been defeated. This allows Crobat to bypass them fairly easily and get all the way to Carnage, who, as my opponent acknowledged, would be hit by SonicBoom. Carnage would be ripped to shreds by the sound-based attack, leaving Invisible Woman to wonder what just happened to Carnage. At this point, she probably builds some more shields around her, so Crobat takes a jagged and unpredictable path towards Aang.

With Carnage's death, Aang and Gray Fox probably realize that Sonic failed, but that really isn't going to help them. Aang might even try to create a mist, but there is no water source around as far as I'm aware, and the atmosphere doesn't even have any water vapor at all, so waterbending can't even help. While Aang is hopelessly trying at this, Crobat fires a nice SonicBoom at Aang, and nothing in the Avatar Wiki seems to suggest any durability above that of a human, so once hit, Aang will fall unconscious. Gray Fox will then wonder what's happening, but by then, Crobat will have retreated back to base.

As another point, even if Aang did manage to bend water to create mist, and actually survive Crobat, the mist won't really help, because once Venusaur sees the mist, it will use Sunny Day to clear things up.

IF Crobat is ever hit by an attack, don't forget that he had a Shield Charm cast on him, deflecting any physical blow.

Harry then casts a Disillusionment Charm and Shield Charm on Kirby, who silently walks up to Gray Fox, then epically inhales him. Gray Fox wouldn't be able to react until he was eaten. He'd probably become Laser Kirby, able to fire lasers.

This leaves only Invisible Woman. My entire team, invisible with protective charms around them, surrounds her, without her even knowing. Harry casts the Cruciatus Curse on her, a curse not deflectable by mere shields, but only by an actual offensive attack. Sue Storm screams in pain, breaking her concentration and eliminating the psionic field, exposing her to a Solar Beam (Venusaur), SonicBoom (Crobat), Shooting Stars (Mario), and Lasers (Kirby). She doesn't stand a chance, and is incapacitated.

(Note that my team is positioned in a pengaton formation, not a square one, so if they miss, they aren't hitting a teammate directly across from them.

Next, I will address conflicts my opponent thinks may happen, even though I doubt it.

First, Crobat versus Gray Fox and Aang. Crobat would, in this case, quickly retreat and shake off all the mud. No point in taking those odds.

My opponent also thinks that Aang can take on Harry Potter, the most powerful Auror in the world. Harry is already protected by a Shield Charm, so he can just cast a single Avada Kedavra curse to defeat Aang, who is still trying to figure out what he can and cannot do on this new planet. Harry is still invisible, so Aang wouldn't even be able to initiate a fight, but could only be ambushed.

Sonic is far from an equal match for Paper Mario, who needs only a Fireburst to burn Sonic, defeating him. This would also burn any other enemies in the area, Carnage being the most susceptible. He would easily die.

Gray Fox would never get close enough to Venusar (a rather durable Pokemon who could take many arm cannon attacks without flinching), because Venusaur would launch a fully-charged Solar Beam right at Gray Fox, who would be flung back and knocked unconscious.

If Kirby and Carnage were in a fight, Kirby would have no problem with eating Carnage. In the anime canon that I am citing, Kirby's inhalation is much more intense than in the video games, and he doesn't give things a chance to escape excet for two Waddle Dees, that he only released because they wouldn't give him any power. Eating spiky things also doesn't hamper his stomach. One has to escape the initial vacuum to survive, something Carnage didn't even try to do. Also, the non-canonical Smash Bros. games are the only ones in which Kirby releases swallowed enemies. In all other instances, they are actually swallowed. Kirby would become Needle Kirby upon eating Carnage.

Sue Storm would have enough problems trying to maintain shields around all of her team members. She won't have any concentration left for other attacks.

If Carnage, Gray Fox, and Sonic all tried to attack Paper Mario at once, he'd use Shooting Star, his most powerful item, which would KO Sonic and damage Carnage and Gray Fox. Flameburst would take care of Carnage. Mario would then charge through Gray Fox's attacks, taking advantage of the temporary invincibility that he gets with every blow, and jump on Gray Fox's head, defeating him.

And remember, this is assuming that they manage to survive the atmosphere, which I highly doubt.

Well, good luck, tvellalot. Your "victory" wasn't as flawless as you hoped. Care to try again?


Please stop this nonsense. Sue Storms shield is equally effective to Mario's fishbowl and Harry Potter's Bubble Head charm, but let's say it isn't...
If my team were to move to one of the complex's many areas where the air is breathable and traps THAT air in the shields, would we still have a problem? Also, my team arrived on the planet by spaceship (didn't they?); a spaceship filled with lovely, breathable air.

Now, back to the battle! My opponent must be tripping balls if he thinks that's how it would play out.

First of all Sonic is able to travel faster than the speed of sound and is renowned for having absolutely lightning reflexes. His base speed is 768 miles an hour [1] (around 340 metres per second) and he increases in speed the longer he runs; this means that Crobat wouldn't be able to hit Sonic while he was scouting.

My opponent makes a valid argument about Sonic not having any rings, something I overlooked, however I still think the shield provided by Sue Storm would allow him to take one hit.

Second, my opponent states that there are no water sources in the area. With hundreds of people living in the compound, I'm sure that they had a water supply. Of course, the planet is a lush rainforest and the air would certainly be full of moisture as well.

The idea that Crobat could attack Aang and Gray Fox would ‘be wondering what's happening' is frankly, ridiculous. He is already dead, but even if he were to attack Gray Fox and Aang, he would certainly make some sound sneaking up on them. Gray Fox was a trained Foxhound [2] member before the Zanzabar incident and is enhanced by both his exoskeleton and though gene therapy. Aang can build walls of stone and hurl giant boulders. Since stone is Crobat's weakness, this would be highly effective.

Next, my opponent calls Harry Potter "the most powerful auror in the world". I have read all seven books several times and I STRONGLY disagree with this. Certainly Harry Potter is an able and skilful wizard and he definitely defeated Voldemort; but this doesn't make him ‘the most powerful' anything. Voldemort has severe disadvantages when he fought Harry Potter. Can you honestly say that if not for the extraneous circumstances of his life, he wouldn't have died any of the number of times he fought Voldemort? No. You would have been better off choosing Hermione Granger, Dumbledore or even Voldemort himself.

Regardless, Harry Potter versus Aang in Avatar form? No chance. The Avada Kadavra spell doesn't pass through stone and Aang has been shown to be able to cover himself in stone as a shield.

Next, I'll address Gray Fox versus Venusaur. Now, my opponent never states anything about charging up this move [here: 3, we see that sunlight must be gathered before the move can be used] so there would be some delay where Gray Fox could prepare to dodge. Regardless, Gray Fox was shown to be able to take a lot of punishment in Metal Gear Solid. Anyone who knows the character would agree that he wouldn't be ‘flung back and knocked unconscious' after one blast.

Sonic simply runs circles around Paper Mario, dodging his every attack and getting in a few lightning-fast blows where he can.

Finally, Carnage versus Kirby; while I admit I've never seen any Kirby anime, the source you cited doesn't say anything about his mouth hold being any more powerful than in the game. Besides, Carnage has more strength than Spider-man and Venom combined. He would rip Kirby into little pink pieces, from the outside or from the inside, absorbed or not absorbed.

If Mario used his Shooting Star, the Invisible Women would simply trap him in a shield until it wore off.

Debate Round No. 3


Thank you, tvellalot, for your response.

First, my opponent equates the following three survival methods:
* Forming a space helmet through the use of psionic barriers
* Putting on a space helmet that contains clean air
* Magically creating a bubble of clean air around the head

The flaw in my opponent's plan should be obvious here: he doesn't actually get any clean air. The psionic helmet still contains poisonous air. Just because the air is now in a helmet, doesn't make it clean.

As a backup plan, he wants his team to move into the human-built complex with breathable air. This has two problems:
1. There isn't enough time to get into the complex before everybody has taken a breath.
2. The complex is protected by a huge, extremely strong security fence [1] that would take minutes for Team CON to break through. It even has automatic defense turrets that would attack them as they tried to break in.
Basically, Team CON would die before getting to that precious air.

Finally, my opponent wishes to use a spaceship that his team travelled in as a source of air. However, there is no mention of any spaceship in the rules, and a spaceship would have been mentioned if it existed. By Occam's Razor, we conclude that the individual team members were teleported to their chosen locations on Pandora's surface from their own home planets. This is the simplest and fairest explanation, as a spaceship would require complicated specifications that could be abused by either side.

To conclude that point, Team CON needs a more accessible source of fresh air that actually exists. I only go on for the sake of debate, and in case my opponent can, in Round 4, come up with an actually plausible survival plan.

My opponent points out Sonic's supersonic speed, which allows him to avoid any attacks by Crobat. However, at this speed, there's no way Sonic would be able to see a hippo right next to him, and especially not an invisible, soundless bat in the sky, which would evade even the most skilled and stationary of scouters.

Sonic will keep running until he crashes into Harry's Shield Charm, knocking him backwards, as the charm is impervious to physical assault. Harry would quickly cast Avada Kedavra before Sonic could get up, eliminating Sonic from the battle. Sue Storm's thin shield would be unable to protect Sonic from such a mighty attack.

Tvellalot posits that there's a water supply on Pandora, but this water is in pipes and metal containers, out of reach for Aang. He also thinks that there must be water in the air because there are rainforests, but the Pandora Wiki disagrees [2]. Aang cannot create a mist. Finally, I pointed out that Venusaur could use Sunny Day to clear any mist that appeared, and my opponent ignored this point as well, conceding it.

With Sonic gone, Crobat continues on his path, then destroys Carnage with SonicBoom. My opponent did not contest this in Round 3, so the point is forfeited.

Meanwhile, Aang and Gray Fox are waiting for Crobat. My opponent plans for them to hear Crobat as it came, then team up on it. This would fail, as Crobat flies extremely silently [3], and would not be noticed by either Gray Fox or Aang. My opponent has not contested that Aang would be knocked unconscious in one blow from Crobat's SonicBoom, dropping the point, so Aang goes down rather quickly, leaving Gray Fox.

However, my opponent's only plan here for disposing of Crobat involves Aang throwing boulders at him, which fails when Aang is already taken care of. Gray Fox alone has no plans, and will simply be defeated by some SonicBooms, as Crobat remains in constant, unpredictable motion, so that Gray Fox can never locate him for an attack.

This again leaves Sue Storm alone. Crobat confuses Sue with a SuperSonic attack. As her concentration breaks, so do her shields, leaving her wide open to a number of SonicBooms, destroying her.

If Crobat can't finish off Gray Fox and Sue Storm (the only two enemies who aren't easily disposed of through assassination/fumbling), the rest of the team joins him, and attacks with the various strategies that I've already mentioned in my opponent's proposed one-on-one battles, which I will now address just in case.

My opponent contends that Harry Potter is NOT the most powerful Auror in the world. However, Harry is the head of the Ministry of Magic's Auror Department [4], and has been for thirteen years. He had mastered powerful magic at a relatively young age, and went on to become the best of the best. My opponent is probably thinking only of teenage Harry, but I specifically said in Round 2 that Harry was an Auror.

Now, in the battle between Harry and Aang, already nullified by Crobat's stealthy SonicBoom, Harry has the advantage of a sneak attack, as he hides under the Invisibility Cloak, and any mist that may have existed has been cleared by Venusaur. Aang would not have a chance to defend from the Avada Kedavra curse unless he had a constant shield of stone around him, and that would make initiating any battle fairly difficult if not impossible.

In the fight between Gray Fox and Venusaur, it is true that Solar Beam usually takes time to charge. However, Venusaur has already used Sunny Day, ensuring that the Alpha Centauri stars are both clear in the sky. The Alpha Centauri stars are one times and 1.304 times as bright as the sun [5], making Venusaur's Solar Beam over twice as powerful as normal. The blast would be both quicker and more powerful than usual, and the beam is way too fast for the Gray Fox to merely dodge it; Ash's Heracross stood no chance. And maybe Gray Fox could take some "punishment," but a Solar Beam from Spenser's Venusaur is in an entirely different league [Video 1; 0:04 - 0:37] from "punishment."

Between Sonic and Paper Mario, Sonic will not "just dodge" Paper Mario's attacks, because of the way the attacks work. When Paper Mario uses an item, everything within the immediate vincity is frozen helpless as they are visciously attacked [Video 2; 3:20 - 3:43]. Once Sonic is in range, he will be hit, and with no rings, he will be defeated. Piece of cake.

To demonstrate Kirby's inhalation power, view Video 3 (1:43 - 1:50). He eats everything. And anything that enters Kirby's mouth is rendered immoblie and helpless as Kirby decides its fate. He's swallowed gigantic stone statues and drill bits, but nothing has ever injured Kirby from the inside in the anime.

Finally, my opponent states that Invisible Woman would trap Paper Mario in a shield during his Shooting Star attack. For one thing, Invisible Woman is frozen during the attack, as are everybody else, so she can't do anything about it. For another, the attack falls from the sky, not from Paper Mario himself, so shielding off Paper Mario wouldn't do any good.

In conclusion, even if Team CON manages to survive Pandora's toxic atmosphere, which is highly doubtful:
Sonic will crash into a magic wall and expose himself to a deadly curse.
Carnage will be assassinated by a powerful sound wave delivered by an invisible, silent bat.
Aang will be assassinated by a powerful sound wave delivered by that same bat.
Sue Storm will be confused and rendered completely useless.
Gray Fox will be surrounded and destroyed by powerful magic, sound waves, shooting stars, and beams of concentrated energy, if not eaten.

Most of my strategies are not opponent-specific, and can be mismatched in any which way.

I have strategy upon counter-strategy against my opponent's wishful best-case scenario. He stands no chance.

Good luck anyway, tvellalot.




Ah, I dun goofed.

I chose Pandora because I thought it would be a cool place to fight and I completely disregarded the toxic atmosphere. I have seen the movie and made terrible assumptions and mongeese, who hadn't seen the movie, wiki'ed it and selected characters to suit that.

All I can say is gah. I still maintain that my team could hold their breaths until they got to a part of the facility where they could breath. The finale of the movie shows the main soldier fighting against the Na'vi holding his breath for a few minutes. It isn't INSTANT death.

So, taking that into consideration, I think I very easily still win.
Imagine the 5 as being dropped on the planet and having to scramble to the facility so they can breath. Once there, the problem goes away as Sue Storms shields would work like Marios helmet. They would have breathable air in them.

Once there, the plan goes slightly differently, though still essentially the same.

This time, rather than splitting up, the team stay together.

Aang rips up the ground with Earth Bending, exposing and breaking them to release a torrent of water.

Similarly to before, he uses a combination of air, earth and water bending to create a whirlwind of mud. If CROBAT is caught in this, he will be destroyed, since Earth is it's weakness.
The main point of this tactic is to spread a thin muddy spray over everything.
As before, this will be used to find the group.

At this point, Aang goes into Avatar mode and launches a full assault on Harry Potter and the battle happens as previously described.



TEAM TVL flee to an area with oxygen
AANG creates a mud cyclone and covers the whole area in a muddy mist

In otherwords..


I'd like to thank mongeese for my first Ultimate Team War. I think I'm hooked! ^_-
Debate Round No. 4


Thank you, tvellalot, for your response. Pandora is indeed a cool place to fight at, but this is mostly because of its great differences from Earth, the most important being its toxic atmosphere, lower gravity, lower traction, and increased sunlight. Fighting at Pandora as if it were Earth would be no cooler than a regular fight on Earth.

However, my opponent's not out just yet, as he plans to use the air left behind in the human base. It is true that one can hold their breath to avoid dying to the toxic atmosphere; the death is not triggered by a first appearance, but by the first breath.

Team TVL's current plan is now to scramble to the human facility. However, I have already pointed out that there is an "extremely strong" security fence with automatic defense turrents, which would attack his team as they tried to enter. This would surely hamper their ventures greatly. In addition, the magically invisible and naturally silentCrobat is currently locating the enemy while they try to infiltrate the base.

As Team TVL is all together now, Crobat's attack plan will change slightly. Undetected, Crobat can fly close to Team TVL, then fire off some SonicBooms. Carnage goes down quickly due to his weakness to sonar attacks. Sonic would be instantly defeated in one hit due to his lack of rings, as earlier noted. As Sue Storm is focusing on getting into the base and holding her breath, fighting off her body's desire to breathe, she cannot spare the concentration necessary to create psionic forcefields; both she and Aang will have the breath knocked out of them. I have already pointed out how Aang goes down in a single SonicBoom, and Sue Storm seems no different. Even if the two of them remain conscious, they will have to take a breath as they get up, and fall unconscious; even if they can still function, they won't be able to hit the undetectable Crobat. Crobat will constantly assault them until they either fall defeated or run out of energy, falling to the atmosphere's powerful toxins.

Gray Fox, meanwhile, with his armor, would probably be able to survive long enough to get into the base, but he will not have the time to spare to protect his teammates. It wouldn't matter anyway, as Crobat is in constant, erratic motion, so that Gray Fox would never have a clear hit. He now faces a predicament, as he cannot leave the base; he needs Sue Storm to create the space helmet necessary to survive on Pandora. Crobat would immediately follow him into the base and use Supersonic to confuse Gray Fox, rendering him unable to concentrate and constatly attacking himself. Paper Mario could then use an Ice Storm to freeze Gray Fox, making him even more helpless and quite likely killing him outright. This would give Team MONG plenty of time to defeat Gray Fox. First, the entire team backs up about 100 meters from the base. Harry then gets within range to cast a Fiendfyre on the base, almost defintely killing Gray Fox and most definitely burning all of the oxygen, leaving Gray Fox doomed. If the base somehow survives the cursed fire, there are backup plans. An invisible Kirby could eat Gray Fox outright, vanquishing him. (Note that while the curse is difficult to use, Harry has about 23 years of experience as an Auror, and is the best of the best at what he does.) Harry could slip in, undetected thanks to his Invisibility Cloak (although a confused Gray Fox wouldn't see him anyway), and use a single Avada Kedavra to eliminate him. Harry could Apparate into the base with Venusaur after it had charged up a Solarbeam; the blast would come as a complete surprise to Gray Fox, knocking him unconscious. At the very least, a large, gaping hole would be created in the base (especially when it's followed up by Harry's Reducto), exposing the clean air to Pandora's air, leaving Gray Fox no place left to hide. Case in point, Gray Fox alone absolutely cannot take down Team MONG, or even a fraction of Team MONG. If anyone survives with Gray Fox, they'll meet the exact same fate, whatever it ends up being.

However, for the sake of debate, let's assume that Team TVL managed to get into the base without Crobat getting to them. Aang first plans to release torrents of water from the ground; this assumes that there's a water source directly under the encampment. This is almost definitely false, as water doesn't even appear to exist naturally on Pandora; furthermore, if there was an aquifer under the encampment, the humans would have used it as a cheaper alternative to shipping water all the way from Earth. The ground would break, but no water would come shooting out.

The next point involves using this non-existent water to create "a whirlwind of mud," claiming that it would destroy Crobat. However, while Crobat is weak to Rock-type attacks, he is immune to Ground-based ones, which generic Earth is more similar to. Furthermore, existing Pokemon attacks like Mud Bomb and Mud-Slap are classified as Ground, and do nothing to Crobat; Aang's attack is similar enough to have the same lack of an effect. Perfectly alive, Crobat would take out Aang with a single SonicBoom. As Aang can't know where Crobat is, he can only protect himself by creating a full wall of earth around him; however, this would also render him useless in battle, and he'd merely be finished off later with first Reducto to destroy the shield, then Avada Kedavra to destroy the soul. I pointed out this problem last round, but it was ignored.

The non-existent mud is also intended to be used to make my completely invisible team detectable; however, I have pointed out twice now that Venusaur's Sunny Day will eliminate the spray. It remains uncontested.

If Aang attempts to launch a full assault on the undetectable Harry, the attacks will be repeatedly blocked with powerful and numerous Shield Charms. While Aang is distracted, Crobat could fire a SonicBoom from behind, destroying him.

Now, one crippling weakness of Team TVL's plan is that the entire team is only kept alive by Sue Storm's psionic space helmets. When Sue Storm's concentration breaks, so do the helmets that she created; such is her weakness. Therefore, Crobat can easily sneak through to Sue Storm and use a single Supersonic to confuse her, destroying the helmets. Paper Mario could achieve the same effect with a Thunder Rage, which would attack her with powerful lightning that would temporarily interrupt her train of thought. The rest of Team TVL will not realize that their invisible helments are gone until they take a breath, take in too much hydrogen sulfide, and collapse, unconscious and defeated.

In tv's final analysis, he finally posits that Carnage can beat Kirby, Gray Fox can beat Venusaur, and Sonic can delay Mario. All of these plans were defeated in Round 4, and subsequently dropped. The idea that Sonic can "delay" Mario is especially odd, as Sonic must stay out of Mario's range completely to avoid being defeated, making it impossible for his to affect Mario in any way.

To conlcude, tvellalot put up a good fight, but while he dropped numerous contentions vital to his operations, I've had a solution to every problem that he has imposed, and a defense to every attack that he initiated. Thanks to the emphasis my team has placed on stealth and sneak attacks, Team MONG can defeat Team TVL in more ways than I could list with my remaining characters.

Thank you, tvellalot, for this Ultimate Team War, and thank you, readers, for taking the time to read this debate. I would also like to remind you of Rule #12, which voters have tended to forget in the past.

I hope to wage war against you again in the future, tv, although you'll definitely be more adapted to the location next time. I'm glad you're hooked. :)



mongeese seems to be under the impression that Sue Storms shields pop like bubbles. This is completely untrue. I think this underestimating is the biggest problem in all of my opponent plans and because of this assumption, most of his attacks and strategies would be completely different in an actual battle between these two teams.

I concede that I didn't take the Pandora atmosphere into enough account when I picked my team and should probably lose because of it.

I want a rematch.

Debate Round No. 5
64 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by georgster101 5 years ago
I think i'll do one of these-
if I had more spare time that is...
Posted by georgster101 5 years ago
but he could breathe in space, and the atmosphere of every planet he travelled to
Posted by mongeese 5 years ago
Sonic X? If he couldn't breathe in water, it's doubtful that he could breathe in a toxic atmoshphere. A phobia only of water makes no sense.
And all final plans to eliminate Sonic involve either using an attack to freeze him regardless of his position, waiting for him to crash and stop himself, attacking him with stealth so that he can't escape in time, or waiting for him to suffocate.
Posted by georgster101 5 years ago
fyi, in sonic x, sonic can breath in any atmosphere except water, so he wouldn't need sue's help for a space helmet. also, neither crobat or his attacks could keep up w/ sonic's speed.
Posted by mongeese 5 years ago
Well, tv, I'll give you a rematch in the near future, hopefully.
Posted by Maikuru 5 years ago
Nice debate, though unfortunately one-sided.

C: Tied
S&G: Tied
A: Pro - The atmosphere issue crippled Con right out of the gate. He may have been able to circumvent this problem with a combination of Sonic's speed and Sue's defenses, but no such plan was fully established.
S: Pro - Rule 12 dictates that this category go to the winning team.
Posted by mongeese 5 years ago
It's a unique concept originally created by MTGandP, and numerous debates have been started based on it, mostly by me. You could read past UTW debates.
Posted by Qynze 5 years ago
This is a very unique debate! I should try something like this...when I have more free time, that is.
Posted by tvellalott 5 years ago
Oh good, I've got hours to write this.
Posted by mongeese 5 years ago
I'm looking forward to reading it.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by Chrysippus 5 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: It all came down to air in this one, and Con's team doesn't have any. Essentially, Con lost this one by his choice of characters. None of the other strategies seem particularly important (though interesting reading) when Con cannot come up with a way to keep his team conscious for more than a minute.
Vote Placed by eric.castelli 5 years ago
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Vote Placed by mongoose 5 years ago
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Vote Placed by Maikuru 5 years ago
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Vote Placed by tvellalott 5 years ago
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