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Ultimate Team War - RMS Titanic

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/16/2010 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,376 times Debate No: 13393
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (48)
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This debate is against Chrysippus. As per his request, the war takes place on April 15, 1912, at 2:08 AM, on the sinking RMS Titanic.

This is Ultimate Team War. Each debater must assemble a team of five characters, and the teams will then fight to the death(ish). Since we cannot have an actual real-life battle, each debater will explain why their team is superior during this debate.

Team leader: One of the debaters here, i.e. me or my opponent
Team member: One of the five chosen warriors.
Team Pro: My team.
Team Con: My opponent's team.

1. The battle will take place on the RMS Titanic, on April 15, 1912, at 2:08 AM, using the floor plans avaliable here [1] as a reference.
2. No character may travel more than one mile away from the site of the sinking of the Titanic.
3. There will be no demi-god characters that are capable of travelling at ridiculous speeds, shattering almost any barriers in their way sustaining little damage to themselves, and wiping out anything, like Superman or Sentry, or anything more powerful than that. If you're in doubt, just ask.
4. Other illegal powers include time travel and mind control.
5. Any team member must be either real or, if fictional, verifiably existent. No characters may be made up for the purpose of this debate.
6. In the case of a fictional character, the team member's abilities must be according to a specific canon chosen by the team leader.
7. Every character has only the equipment that they generally have in the specified canon.
8. Team members are absolutely loyal to the team leade. All team members are still subjected to their own emotions, however.
9. The team leader may not directly participate in the competition, but may only facilitate. The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team.
10. Neither team can have a member in common. If one team leader chooses a team member, the other team cannot have that character.
11. A team wins when all members of an opposing team are dead, unconscious, or essentially unusable. Characters who cannot be dead, unconscious, or unusable are not allowed.
12. The winning team automatically receives Arguments and Sources. Conduct, in addition to regular things, goes to the person who follows the rules most effectively.

Round 1: Rule specifications; PRO unveils first three team members, CON unveils all five team members. PRO also chooses the location of his team at the start of the fight; CON then chooses a different location on a deck other than the one picked by PRO.

Round 2: PRO unveils his final two team members and explains why his team is better. CON also begins his arguments.

Round 3, 4, 5: Arguments and rebuttals. CON may not present any new arguments during round 5, since PRO has no chance to rebut them.

Team PRO will be starting in what appears to be a restaurant near the bow of the D Deck of the Titanic.

Team Member 1: Dark Magician [2]

Known as "the ultimate wizard in terms of attack and defense," the Dark Magician is actually the spirit of the powerful magician Mahad [3] fused with his own Ka. As a magician, he is extremely powerful, with attacks such as Dark Magic Attack and Thousand Magic Blasts. Many of his abilities are represented in Duel Monsters cards, including "Magical Hats," "Thousand Knives," and "Diffusion Wave-Motion." There are also other magical skills that Egyptian sorcerers are known to posess, as seen in his apprentice, Mana, including the ability to freeze mortals and the ability to levitate objects.

2. Link, Hero of Twilight [4]

Link is an Ordonian swordsman and the protector of Hyrule. He wields a sword, a shield, and an array of other powerful weapons at his disposal. He wields the Triforce of Courage, which allows him to transform into a wolf in an environment of extreme darkness and wield any weapon instinctively and with ease. He also posesses the Fused Shadows, although he is incapable of using their power.

3. Kirby ("Kirby: Right Back at Ya!") [5]

Kirby is an 8-inch tall pink blob with eyes, arms, a mouth, and feet. His main ability is that he can turn his mouth into a vacuum, eating his enemies and taking on their powers as his own.

I will post my other two team members and begin my arguments in round 2, after my opponent posts his or her team members.

Oh, and thanks to MTGandP for coming up with the entire concept of Ultimate Team War!



I'd like to thank my opponent for what promises to be an incredible team war.

I shall now reveal my team:

1. The Doctor.

An alien known as a Time Lord, with powerful self-healing and the ability to absorb incredible amounts of energy without harm. (

Although he is opposed to violence, in order to defend innocent people he has wiped out entire armies. (
He has been described as "the most feared creature in the universe."

{I apologize for these two links; the auto-hyperlink function keeps breaking them, so you will have to c/p into your browser bar and add the http:// to see them.)

He normally does not carry weapons of any kind, preferring to improvise; his normal equipment is a "sonic screwdriver" that has an incredible variety of uses; it locks and unlocks doors, repairs equipment, detects life forms, analyses machinery or electronics, hacks computer systems, etc.

Current incarnation; official canon.

2. Master Khan

Master Khan is a powerful sorcerer in the Marvel universe.
Khan has "magical powers, enabling him to distort reality, levitate and shrink objects and beings. He can alter his appearance and possibly transform into non-human forms. He can form shields, fire energy blasts, and cast magical spells"

3. Hellboy

Hellboy is a large red demon who hunts down supernatural criminals.

"Among Hellboy's more obvious powers are superhuman strength and resilience in the face of physical injury. He can withstand powerful blows that would severely injure or kill a human.

In addition to his natural physical abilities, Hellboy carries a variety of items in his utility belt that can be used against various supernatural forces. He has been known to carry holy relics, horseshoes, various herbs, and grenades. Though he commonly carries an oversized revolver, Hellboy freely admits to being a lousy shot and often fights hand-to-hand.

Hellboy's right hand, referred to as the "Right Hand of Doom", consists of a large forearm and hand that seems to be made from red stone. The Hand is dexterous enough to catch a fly, but its large size causes Hellboy to prefer his normal-sized left hand to operate weapons and devices. The Hand is effectively invulnerable and feels no pain, serving much like a sledgehammer when used to punch an enemy."

"Hellboy possesses superhuman strength and is able to lift up 10 tons. He posesses an accelerated healing factor, surviving injuries a normal human would find fatal. He is said to have eyesight better than that of a regular human as well. In the movies, he is depicted as being fireproof, but in the comics he can still burn; however his accelerated healing may still give off the illusion of being immune to fire. Hellboy's superhuman abilities would seem to stem from his demonic nature."

Comic book canon.

4. Deadshot

Expert assassin, almost unerring marksman. Has a reputation for never missing his target. Uses a pair of silenced wrist-mounted guns, among other waepons; is capable of using any projectile weapon with deadly accuracy. Wears extensive body/head armour.

For the purposes of this debate, the only gun he is carrying other than his wrist guns is a Robar SR-90, carrying multiple 10-round clips in case my opponent's team needs extra persuasion.

Comic book canon, if it is important; there is hardly any deviation (and none I would consider important at first glance) between the comic books and the movies's portrayal of this character.

5. Harold

Harold is a 4-year-old boy who has the unique ability to change reality by drawing with his purple crayon. Anything he draws becomes real instantly. There seem to be no limits to this ability, as in the book he creates his entire world by this method.

My team has assembled at the extreme stern of Deck B, the highest part of the ship towards the end.

Judging by my opponent's team so far, none of my team should really be objectionable; if there's a problem, which I do not anticipate, I'd be happy to discuss it with him in the comments before he posts his next round.

I also credit MTGandP for the UTW concept, although I doubt he is still here to appreciate our thanks.

To my opponent, then; best of luck, and here's to a good fight!
Debate Round No. 1


I would like to thank Chrysippus for posting his team. I must now select my final two team members:

Team Member 4: Magikarp ("Pok�mon" anime) [1]

Magikarp is a hopelessly pathetic Pok�mon, knowing only Splash, Tackle, and Flail. It's only two good traits are its decent speed and its potential for evolution. Other than that, it's a flopping paperweight.

Team Member 5: Giga Lakitu's [2] Cloud [3]

This is a large, purple cloud, usually the chariot of King Lakitu. It stores a tremendous amount of lightning that it can fire down to the ground from tremendous altitudes. For a cloud, it's pretty solid, as it is capable of carrying something as huge as Giga Lakitu.

That will be my team. It sure was difficult to try to get a variety of characters.

Now, for my team's strategy, my team will split into two groups: the Dark Magician, and everybody else.

Dark Magician will use his power of "Mystic Box" to surround himself with the Mystic Box, which will then be speared repeatedly with magic swords. Harold will simultaneously be enveloped by another Mystic Box. Suddenly, the Dark Magician will jump out of Harold's Mystic Box, astonishing everybody on Team CON, as poor Harold is suddenly found on Deck D with multiple stab wounds, his hand still holding his wonderful magic crayon.

With surprise still on his side, the Dark Magician will then another power, "Diffusion Wave-Motion," unleashing numerous blasts at all of Team CON, wrecking total havoc. The Doctor will probably survive, and Master Khan will probably protect himself with a magical shield, but Hellboy and Deadshot won't be so lucky, as they have no defense against magic. The Dark Magician will then engage in combat with The Doctor and Master Khan, preparing to counter whatever strategy my opponent can come up with.

Meanwhile, back on Deck D, Kirby will eat Harold's purple crayon, endowing upon him the convinently fitting ability of Paint Kirby. He will then paint two cellphones, similar to the ones in "Kirby and the Amazing Mirror," for communication between Link and Kirby.

Link will fire his Clawshot at a window, shattering it, and he, Kirby, Magikarp, and the Cloud abandon ship. Magikarp will splash harmlessly into the water, Kirby will float down gently, and the Cloud will just float around carrying Link. Link will don his helpful Magic Armor to protect himself from attacks through the use of his wallet, while Kirby will start painting more Rupees for Link to refuel with later. Exposed to this sudden turmoil and chaos, Magikarp will dramatically evolve into the extremely powerful water dragon Gyarados, with precedent in the episode "Pok�mon Shipwreck."

Link will then equip his Hawkeye as Cloud floats to above the Titanic, but distant enough that Deadshot would have an impossible time finding him and sniping him, observing what has happened with the Dark Magician's immediate offensive. If any enemies are actually still standing, Link will snipe them secretly from a distance with his Hero's Bow, with them not even knowing what hit them and incapable of stopping him. This strategy is subject to change depending on what Link actually sees. Link will also relay his observations to Kirby via cellphone, allowing Kirby to change strategy if need be.

After twelve minutes, the Titanic will collapse. Gyarados is completely unaffected, Kirby is riding atop Gyarados, and Link and Cloud are safely floating in the air. Meanwhile, all of Team CON will helplessly drown, ending the war in my favor.

Well, that's all the strategy I have for now. Good luck, Chrysippus!



This will be interesting. Thanks, Mongeese!

As the battle begins, Master Khan throws a magic shield around my team. As my opponent's team is at the opposite end of the ship, and below decks, Dark Magician is unaware of my team's exact location; the stern is easily the most crowded part of the ship by time our battle begins, as the Titanic has already taken on a significant list and the lifeboats are gone. In the crowd, even if Dark Magician can sense life energies, he'll hardly be able to pinpoint Harold's exact location immediately; he'll have to cast some kind of Finding spell, which is all the time Master Khan needs to put up a defence aginst Magic Box.

Magic box is cast, but deflects off Khan's shield. The passengers run in terror as a large black box appears magically in their midst. Dark Magician jumps out, only to find himself facing my entire team intact. Down on Deck D poor Samuel Dennis, the random 3rd class passenger who was the unintended target of Dark Magicians power, appears run through with many swords. Kirby is welcome to eat him, but he is unlikely to gain any power from it.

Neither side has the advantage of surprise here, but DM is welcome to begin his barrage. Khan casts energy blasts at DM, as Deadshot and Hellboy begin firing. The Doctor uses his sonic screwdriver to increase the power of Deadshot's bullets, and Harold amuses himself by drawing a fire hydrant and hose.

Now, it is difficult to say whether or not bullets will have any affect on DM; he is a spirit, after all. Hellboy carries his gun to handle the supernatural foes he deals with every day, but DM may be more ghostly than physical. If so, Deadshot will find out quickly; his first few bullets will pass right through DM if that is the case, and the firing will stop. If DM is at all physical, well, I have four powerful guns firing on him, plus Master Khan's energy blasts. Whatever body he has will shortly become a mass of holes.

Assuming that he can both shield himself from the energy blasts and that he take no damage from bullets, Hellboy steps up to make the fight personal. My opponent incorrectly states that Hellboy has no protection from magic; as he is a demon, a supernatural creature who spends his days fighting supernatural enemies, and "America's first line of defense against occult menaces" [1], it only stand to reason that he is little phased by magic.

DM now faces the Right Hand of Doom. Khan assists as he can, stressing DM's concentration by energy blasts and protecting Hellboy with an occasional shield or two; but most of his concentration at the moment is focused on keeping the non-magical members of the team safe (Deadshot, Harold, and the Doctor; although the Doctor could probably take DM's attacks for a little while if unprotected.

Meanwhile, Deadshot is busy picking off members of Pro's team as they emerge from the window, long before Link is in range, even with the Hawkeye. Link is the first target; if he starts out with enough rupees to keep the Magic armour working, Deadshot quickly shifts his attention to Cloud. Cloud should be easy enough to rip apart with a few shots (and if not, a single Fire Blast from Khan certainly will). Link falls into the water, and is forced to change to Zora armour; while in the water, he cannot use the Hero's bow, and is not immune to bullets if he comes to the surface. Magikarp, before he evolves, "jumps and splashes about, making it easy for predators like Pidgeotto to catch it mid-jump." [2] It also makes it easy for Deadshot to kill it before it gets a chance to evolve.

Kirby leaps out the broken window, floats gently down to land on Magikarp as it attempts to evolve, and both of them are shredded by large-caliber rifle bullets. As I said, Magikarp is a floppy 2-foot goldfish attempting to become a giant monster; easy stuff for Deadshot to hit. They are, at most, only 800 feet away [3], while Deadshot's Robar SR-90 rife is accurate to .5 MOA standards at 3000 feet (1000 yards). (The Robar rifles are listed here [4] as being within .5 MOA standards at 1000yrds, which means they get <4" of spread at 2,624 feet (the 800 meters of the MOA tests [5]).

With the rest of Pro's team gone, together Hellboy and Master Khan beat Dark Magician to a pulp. The Doctor uses the fire hose and his sonic screwdriver to blast DM with sonic water bursts. Harold draws a yacht for my team, as by this point the twelve minutes are up. The last smoke funnel falls, splitting the ship in half; the battered remains of the titanic slips into the cold north Atlantic to join Team Pro.

My team, from the comfort of their heated yacht, watch Link swim around far below them. If he ever comes anywhere near the surface (within a half mile should do it), Khan will make him tiny and Harold will draw a fish to eat him. Meanwhile, he's got to be freezing. He's also useless for Pro, as nothing he has can span the distance between them. My team remains in possession of the surface.

I return this battle to my opponent; I'm looking forward to what he comes up with. Good luck, Mongeese!

Note on link two: My opponent's link took me here:
which gives no useful information on the Magikarp. I followed the links until I found one that specifically said it could evolve into Gyarados. I believe this to be the Magikarp Pro spoke of.
Debate Round No. 2


Thank you, Chrysippus, for your response. Now, on with the fight!

Firstly, my opponent wishes to use Master Khan's "magic shield" to protect his entire team. I see a number of problems with this. One, there's no reason to believe that this shield can stop the Mystic Box attack. A shield, even if magical, might only be able to counter physical blows. It would have to be an anti-magic shield for the desired effect. Further, such a shield won't even truly work on the Mystic Box, as it is meant to bypass defenses through direct teleportation. The box never makes contact with the shield at all. Finally, I have good reason to believe that Master Khan can't even cast this shield in the first place, given that "Khan's powers waxes and wanes, based on the worship - including blood sacrifice - of the K'un-Lun people" [1]. This is 1912, and in this universe, the K'un-Lun people don't even exist. There's no reason to believe that the K'un-Lun people are performing any sacrifice at all at this time.

My opponent also believes that the Dark Magician may have a tough time actually finding and striking Harold. However, there are two reasons for why he could do this:
1. We've told each other our starting locations, so he can just use that information.
2. The Dark Magician has struck foes without knowing their exact location before. Just look at the provided video (8:22 - 9:17). The Dark Magician couldn't see Jirai Gumo, but skewered him all the same.

Now, in both situations, we have the Dark Magician taking on the whole of my opponent's team. Despite the fact that the Dark Magician is truly a spirit, he does have a physical body, so he could potentially be hit by bullets. However, he doesn't intend for that to happen, due to "Afterworld Warp," which will reflect your attacks on the Dark Magician back onto your team. Good luck surviving your own rain of fire. After they've all stunned by their own attacks, the Dark Magician can then let loose his Thousand Magic Blasts, destroying them even further. At this point, even if we grant that Harold survived the Mystic Box, he won't survive these.

My opponent claims that Hellboy may have magical resistance. However, nothing in any source I've seen states anything like this at all; my opponent is merely inferencing. However, as neither of his wiki pages even mentions any magical resistance, I think it's nothing but an inference. Magical resistance isn't exactly a hidden ability.

If Hellboy tries to get close enough to the Dark Magician to use his Right Hand of Doom (as if he'd survive the Thousand Magic Blasts and still be conscious), he'd be hit with a direct Dark Magic Attack.

Meanwhile, the rest of my team is jumping out the window. My opponent claims that Deadshot can snipe them, but I see problems with this. He's on the extreme stern of Deck B. My team is exiting through a window on the bow of Deck D. Deadshot would have to literally snipe through the ship, and last I checked, he doesn't have the ability to see through steel. Even if he got to the bow of Deck B, he'd have to lean over and fire his weapon at an extremely awkward angle to hit, and I doubt he'd even be able to see a few shadows at two in the morning against the sea. He'd probably be too late, anyway, as this entire operation should last no longer than fifteen seconds, and Deadshot has the Dark Magician to worry about. He has no chance to interfere with my plan, resulting in Paint Kirby and Gyarados on the seas and Link and Cloud in the sky, too far away to be distinguished among all of the other clouds in the sky, and especially impossible to hit if Cloud kept in constant motion.

Now, Gyarados looks up and sees Deadshot panting as he leans over the bow of the Titanic, trying to get a clear shot. He then lets loose one giant Hyper Beam [2]. Deadshot stands no chance. If Deadshot does manage to open fire and repeatedly strike Gyarados, significantly wounding him, Link can fire a bomb arrow at Deadshot, killing him. But I doubt Gyarados will have any problems.

At this point, the Dark Magician has probably fallen, but not before killing Hellboy, greatly injuring Deadshot, and spearing Harold. As Gyarados destroyed Deadshot, this leaves Team CON with only the Doctor and Master Khan. If Master Khan lacks power as I suspect he does, though, even he will have fallen to the Dark Magician. Link can fire a few arrows from the sky to greatly injure the Doctor, while Gyarados unleashes another Hyper Beam at the ship, blasting a hole in the hull that would make the iceberg green with envy, quickening the sinking of the Titanic and hitting the Doctor. He's toast. If he's still alive, Cloud can just hover over him and any other survivors and unleash concentrated lightning on them.

Now, regarding Harold, there is absolutely no indication that Harold's imaginative creations can react with anybody else. With my limited memory of reading the book, Harold appears to draw himself his own world. However, nothing ever leaves this world to join Harold. According to one summary [3], "the only things that are real are Harold and the purple crayon." Harold may be able to interact with his drawings in his mind, but nobody else can. Harold may be able to enter the world that he has drawn, but he cannot force Team PRO to join him. In short, Harold's ability to create his own world for himself doesn't seem to be very useful in an Ultimate Team War at all.

Now, what if my opponent managed to get the fight to end up with his team on a yacht and Link swimming around underwater? Well, Link will swim around in the water, but Team CON won't be able to find him. With the Zora Armor, Link never has to surface, and Link won't be freezing at all, as he's been knee-deep in snow with no indication of any discomfort. My opponent has no method of forcing Link to surface. The battle would end in a draw.

Even if the Dark Magician goes down without much of a fight, as long has Harold has been eliminated either by the Mystic Box or my logical argument against his purple crayon's power, Team CON will fall victim to the Atlantic Ocean, while the rest of Team PRO can survive.

With that, I'll leave the rest of the round to Chrysippus. Good luck!

1. (Powers)


Chrysippus forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3


For reference, my opponent did post his Round 3 arguments, sources, etc. in the Comments section, and I would like to acknowledge them as part of this debate. More specifically, they are Comments 21-24.

First, my opponent agrees that Harold is essentially powerless. This means that when Kirby eats the purple crayon, he will gain no powers, and merely spit it out. My opponent seems to be under the misconception that Kirby transforms into a new ability based solely on what he eats. This is false. He takes on a new ability from a pre-established set of abilities, but it's an ability that is somehow connected to whatever he ate.

My opponent goes into the hypotheticals of the Dark Magician attacking other characters with the Mystic Box, but it matters not, for the Dark Magician attacked before he could ever learn that Harold was worthless, and therefore there is nothing that would change his plan of attack.

My opponent claims that Master Khan has been able to use his power on Earth, and therefore, he can use his power in this battle. Perhaps my saying that he comes from a separate universe is misunderstood, given the concept of a multiverse in the comics themselves. I essentially mean that this Earth is in an entirely separate multiverse from the Earth that Master Khan visited, so that Master Khan is completely separated from any power that the K'un-Lun people can give him. As far as this debate is concerned, the K'un-Lun don't exist, and never have existed. My opponent claims that distance is no impediment, but this isn't just distance; this is a separate multiverse.

CON also claims that all characters get their "normal" or "default" powers. For example, Link and Kirby would naturally start as they would when a game is turned on after saving, with no current ability and not currently holding any non-equipment item, such as a pot. However, Master Khan has no "normal" power, as his power is entirely dependent upon blood sacrifice by a people infinitely distant from him. Characters that rely on things outside of the universe of the battle don't have access to them. For example, for a time in Twilight Princess, Link is unable to use the Dominion Rod's power anywhere outside of the Temple of Time of the past. If it weren't for the fact that Link regains this power through the Ancient Sky Book, he would not be able to use the Dominion Rod in any Ultimate Team War that takes place anywhere outside the Temple of Time of the past. To say that Master Khan gets his "normal" powers despite the environment not allowing for it is like claiming that a Castform would be in its Normal Form despite a heavy rainstorm on the battlefield.

My opponent points out that the bow of the Titanic is quickly sinking. That's why they're putting into execution such a speedy evacuation plan. He has few other moves against the team.

My opponent again claims that his team can wipe out the Dark Magician before any major damage is done. However, he doesn't have many logical arguments for this to counter my own. Now, I don't see how demonic nature or physical strength can save Hellboy from a Dark Magic Attack, but stamina and healing may just help. However, that by no means means that the Dark Magician is going to actually let Hellboy get in a single punch; just before he makes contact, the Dark Magician will conjure up Magical Hats, to conceal him and hide him in another spot in the room, as Hellboy destroys an empty hat. The Dark Magician can then jump out from his hiding place and attack yet again.

Now, the rest of my opponent's plan relies on Khan's spell, and my team will be having trouble if it works, so I'll dedicate the rest of my argument to stopping him, as it seems to be his only offensive maneuver left against anybody besides the Dark Magician.

First off, as Master Khan tries to get away, the Dark Magician can jump into the air and cast a freezing spell on Khan, then launch a Dark Magic Attack on him, avoiding any chance for a fistfight with Hellboy and delaying Khan until long after the rest of my team can abandon ship and avoid Khan's spell completely. As Khan wouldn't even notice that my team had saved itself until after shrinking the Titanic, he will have instead trapped most of his own team, and the tiny Dark Magician can still escape with his Mystic Box, leaving a fight of five versus one (or 4 1/2 versus one, as the Dark Magician would have shrunk). There's a huge question of how long it would take Master Khan to actually shrink the Titanic. In "The Strange Magic of Master Khan!", Khan first had to stall his target by turning the sea against it before being able to summon the energy to seal it into a bottle [3]. How much longer would it take to do the same thing to the Titanic?

However, even if Khan can try to unleash his spell in time, there's the question about whether or not it will even work. The Titanic is a huge ship, and it's doubtful that even a sorcerer as powerful as Master Khan can cast a spell that can envelop such a large work of construction. There's also the fact that a significant portion of the Titanic is made of iron [1], which "allegedly weakens mages of Khan's order." A ship much larger than the boat he originally shrunk, and made out of a material that weakens him? It doesn't seem feasible for him anymore.

However, if bad comes to worse, and somehow Master Khan can fend off the wrath of the Dark Magician AND get over
his little size issue AND come over his fear of iron, ALL before the rest of my team can evacuate the Titanic, I still have a plan. He claims that Master Khan can magically weigh down the bottle (even after overcoming everything just to shrink the Titanic in the first place), but gives no reason to believe that he can do this. Furthermore, I really doubt that this "magical" glass (whose magical-ness is merely by my opponent's fancy) can properly withstand a bomb arrow or Link's Ball and Chain. My team can then merely float around in the great blue ocean, with Link's once-empty Bottles stuffed with food from the ship, no problem. My team can survive far longer in the water than Khan can on the surface.

In conclusion, my opponent only has any reasonable offenses against the Dark Magician, leaving the rest of my team to easily destroy whatever the Dark Magician cannot. Good luck, Chrysippus, and be sure to get your round in on time this time. I look forward to reading it.

All references to anything in the Zelda series can be found here:
All references to anything in the Kirby series can be found here:
All references to anything in the Pok�mon series can be found here:
All references to anything in the Yu-Gi-Oh series can be found here:


Once again, I thank my opponent. His resourcefullness has made this quite an interesting battle.

I'd like to address one point before taking my opponents contentions in order. The entire "ship-in-a-bottle" sequence was predicated on DM choosing Deadshot as his victim: "If DM uses his magic box attack on Deadshot, Master Khan will leave the attack on DM to Hellboy and the Doctor..." (from my comment-posted R3). As my opponent has stated the Magic box attack targets Harold, presumably Deadshot will still be there to help take on DM, and there is no need for Master Khan to attempt the (admittedly improbable) feat.

This takes us down to my opponent's third R4 contention. "...this Earth is in an entirely separate multiverse from the Earth that Master Khan visited, so that Master Khan is completely separated from any power that the K'un-Lun people can give him."

This I will defend with in combination to his fourth contention: "Characters that rely on things outside of the universe of the battle don't have access to them."; which he is applying to Master Khan's powers.

Granted; Master Khan's powers are those described as his in the Marvel universe; e.g. gained by the adoration of some mystic villagers (which, even in the Marvel universe, were on a separate plane from Earth). For him to be anything in our world but an improbably old Chinese man with an ego problem, we must allow for some bending of the laws of physics; in much the same way we bend them to allow:
1. a pink blob with no internal organs or skeletal structure to possess sentience and great mobility, not to mention vacuum-power-absorbtion (Kirby);
2. a long-dead magician who exists mainly in the form of a playing card to perform acts of teleportation, conjure out of nowhere gigantic hats that allegedly move him about instantaneously, and unleash out of thin air unspecified (yet strangely alien to our reality) blasts of "magical" power (Dark Magician);
3. a skinny teenage boy with improbable ears carry a vast arsenal around on his person without affecting his ability to jump, fight, run, and change into suits of armour that allow him to breathe underwater indefinitely (Link);
4. a glorified goldfish to become in moments an enormous sea-monster that shoots powerful yet vaguely defined (nuclear, perhaps?) beams out of its mouth (Magikarp/Gyrados)
5. a solid cloud with personality (Cloud).

Or, for that matter, to let a demon take semi-humanoid form and wander about punching evil-doers, or to even admit the existence of a Timelord. Were my opponent's strict standard of the rules of our reality to be applied evenly to our teams, it would eliminate every single one on his team. My team would be reduced to a sniper and a delusional five-year-old, but they at least do not depend on out-of-universe physics and power sources.

If my opponent wishes to claim that because Master Khan's powers are gained from a source outside our universe, he cannot use them in ours, he must likewise drop each of his players that use powers that rely on unreal physics and out-of universe sources. The Triforce, for instance, which allows Link to use the Master sword, cannot have any affect on Earth. Dark Magician is a wizard's soul locked in a playing card; his powers depend on a magical paradigm foreign to our reality. One struggles to think of an explanation for Kirby's powers outside of the framework of the Nintendo universe.

I think I have belabored this point sufficiently.

"My opponent again claims that his team can wipe out the Dark Magician before any major damage is done."
I do no underestimate DM's power. As evidence for this, I have pitted my entire team against him, with the temporary exception of Deadshot as he snipes at the rest of Pro's team when they come into view. I do not expect to come off unscathed against the DM. However, he does have certain weaknesses by his Yu-Gi-Oh nature that I can exploit, all evidenced in the video my opponent linked R3:

1. First, his spells are cast in sequence. He is not shown doing two spells at once, or attacking two enemies at once; he seems to be limited to a single attack at a time. I will concede this point if my opponent post a video showing him attacking two or more ate the same time (not counting "Afterworld Warp" used to mirror my attacks, obviously).

2. Second, each of his spells shown have a ramp-up time of a couple seconds before they take effect. I'm assuming that much of that time is merely anime build-up for effect; I'd rather give my opponent the benefit of the doubt, as he is pitting this character against four fighters at close quarters. Still, the time it takes for DM to cast "Hats" would be plenty for a punch to land for a near-by Hellboy; and even at twice the speed shown, DM would be an easy target for Deadshot as he casts Magic box, since the doors close at a leisurely pace after the box appears.

My team, I believe, has more than a reasonable chance to defeat the Dark Magician before the other members of Pro's team is in place to attack.


The remaining space I'll use to set out my final battle plan. My opponent has one last turn to alter his plan; since he cannot respond to my R5, I will restrain myself to defending any objections/refuting claims he may make in R5, or clearing up points I may have unintentionally left unanswered in this round.

At the beginning of the battle, Khan senses the Magic box attack from DM. Since DM can cast the spell unerringly, there is no time for any shield to take effect before the Box begins to appear. Khan does know the source, naturally; there is only one sorcerer on Pro's team. Warning my team to attack DM when he appears, then, Khan closes in on the Box with my team. As the doors open, DM is met with a withering fire.

I hold no illusions that this attack will be enough to destroy DM; but by the time he can put up a defence (Afterword warp, probably), Hellboy will have gotten close enough to grab him in his right hand. Khan can launch blasts of fire against DM without fear of harming Hellboy, while Hellboy can use some of the various holy relics and amulets he keeps on his belt to counter magic attacks DM may attempt.

Deadshot takes this time to begin firing on Link and Cloud, who have just made their way out of the window and are sailing up into the sky. Using the same fictional light source that would allow Link to see targets on an unlighted deck far below at 2:00 am, Deadshot finds their shapes against the sky and begins firing. My opponent never said how long Link can power his magic armor with the rupees he currently has, but he also didn't deny Cloud's vulnerability to bullets. As Link is on top of Cloud, when Deadshot rips Cloud into shreds with large caliber rifle bullets Link will go plummeting down into the water.

If Link had gotten all the way to his attempted altitude (as high as he can legally go; ~5200ft) the impact with the water (or worse, the deck!) sans parachute should knock him out. If my opponent insists he is still conscious, he will have to change into the Zora armour to survive; while he does so, he can be sniped by Deadshot.

I cannot think of a way to work this so that I can kill Magikarp before he gets a chance to evolve; however, Gyrados is both easy-to-hit and his own light source. Khan will have an easy target; and although he may be difficult to kill, Khan can shrink him down to an almost micoscopic size. Mini-Gyrados can use his tiny beam of destruction all he wants; it shouldn't have any effect on my team or the Titanic. Tiny Kirby is welcome to ride him until my team has time to kill them both.

I'm out of characters; good luck mogoose!
Debate Round No. 4


Well, Chrysippus, this has been one of the best Ultimate Team War debates I've ever been in. Let's finish it strong.

I will concede that Master Khan can use his powers.

My opponent's first few points deal with the attacks and abilities of the Dark Magician. I would like to present the following videos:

Video 1: "Legendary Heroes Part 2" (8:19 - 8:30)
Yugi manages to use "Magical Hats" practically instantaneously to both protect his party and teleport them to a safer location.

Video 2: "Legendary Heroes Part 3" (3:59 - 4:04)
The Dark Magician immediately launches numerous deadly attacks merely by holding out his staff and looking in a random general direction, destroying the surrounding monsters in his trademark negative-color fashion.

As the video clearly shows, the Dark Magician's "weaknesses" only apply when he is participating in a turn-based card game. In the more realistic Virtual World, he acts much more quickly and efficiently. To counter my opponent's two points, the Dark Magician is capable of attacking multiple foes and using his magical powers simultaneously and instantaneously.

As soon as Team CON takes aim at the Dark Magician as he emerges from the Mystic Box, he can use Magial Hats to further hide himself, and place three more hats in three corners of the room, able to randomly pop out of any and attack without warning. The original hat is vaporized by the "withering fire," but it matters not. He can then use Dark Magic Attack to destroy Deadshot and inflict damage upon everybody else, ending his sniping spree before it can ever begin, and engage the rest of Team CON. As Deadshot is necessary to any and all plans my opponent has in taking out Link and Cloud, and my opponent is no longer allowed to make any new plans, Link is safe, and my opponent can no longer win.

As Hellboy approaches the Dark Magician in an attempt to punch his lights out, he can merely jump over him in a "cool" front-flip as seen in "Double Trouble Duel Part 2" (the video I linked to in Round 3) (5:17 - 5:31), then fire a flurry of Dark Magic Attacks at Hellboy, the Doctor, and Master Khan. Hellboy seems to lack the agility and levitational powers that the Dark Magician has, so he can dance circles around Hellboy and render him useless, being sure to avoid and redirect any attacks from Master Khan and the Doctor. The Dark Magician may eventally be caught off-guard, but not before blasting Hellboy into dust and tiring out Master Khan and the Doctor.

Now, meanwhile, Link is floating high in the air on Cloud. My opponent counts on Deadshot to take care of Link, but, well, he's kind of dead. Even if Deadshot were alive, he'd have a problem making out Link and Cloud in the nearly pitch-black night sky, especially when Link doesn't show his head until he's 1,000 feet away vertically. My opponent claims to get the same "ficitonal light source" that Link gets when he aims his Hero's Bow, but this light source happens to be whatever lights are on the ship itself. Surely, there are some lights on the Titanic at this time. I mean, this 800-foot ship can't be invisible to Link. Then its just a matter for Link to identify the stern, notice any movement at all on this small area, and fire with the incredible aid of his Hawkeye mask. This is far easier than Deadshot's task of finding Link against the entire expanse of the night sky. Deadshot might have properly investigated about 5% of Link's potential hiding spots before being struck by an arrow. And this is all assuming that he isn't already dead. For the record, with 1,000 Rupees, Link is able to survive a hit for about 500 seconds, or 8:20, which is all the time he needs. One shot, though, and he's going to take a dive, as Cloud suddenly has to evacuate.

If Cloud is ever left without Link on his head, he can merely float over the Titanic and unleash his lightning bolts over whatever team my opponent has left. Meanwhile, Link will fall into the water, changing into the Zora suit in midair. This fall may seem like it would knock out Link, as my opponent claims, but Link's been through worse. To get from the City in the Sky, which is miles above the surface, back to Hyrule, Link is actually launched down to earth from a powerful Sky Cannon, which makes his impact velocity even greater. However, he merely fell into Lake Hylia without so much as a flinch. He's got some crazy resistance to physical turmoil, that Link. My opponent further claims that Deadshot can then snipe Link, but he'd first have to get to the bow of the ship in order to snipe the surrounding water, a task that the Dark Magician can ensure he never accomplishes, and even then, Link can hang out in the water for pretty much forever, and Deadshot will never find him; he'd probably be more concerned with the Gyarados that will launch a Hyper Beam in his face as soon as he so much as peeps over the rail, much to his surprise.

My opponent's plan is to shrink Gyarados to a microscopic size. This would be the same as if Gyarados repeatedly used the Pok�mon move Minimize. Yes, Pok�mon actually commonly regard it as an advantage to be shrunk. Here's the thing: even though Minimize shrinks Gyarados, it only increases his Evasion. A microscopic Gyarados' Hyper Beam is just as powerful as a giant one. With this super-minimization, Gyarados will become the ultimate weapon, with all of his original power, defense, speed, and accuracy, but just plain impossible to actually spot. Gyarados can unleash a mini-Hyper Beam with just as much range as before, wiping out Team CON's unsuspecting team as they approach. They won't know what hit them until it's too late to reverse Khan's fatal mistake. Mini-Gyarados will easily destroy what Dark Magician's Dark Magic Attacks and Link's arrows couldn't.

Meanwhile, Tiny Kirby will invisibly jump on Master Khan's back without being noticed, then enter Master Khan's body. As seen in the Kirby episode "Microtizer," while shrunk in somebody's body, Kirby can actually navigate through the body and attack and eat things in it. He can then traverse to Master Khan's cranium and slowly eat away at his limited number of brain cells. Any white blood cells, or any other cells sent to defend his brain against Kirby, will be eaten. In this way, Kirby will eventually have eaten all of Khan's brain, killing him. He can then repeat the process with the Doctor, or anybody else who somehow managed to avoid the flurry of attacks I've launched against him.

Even if my opponent can take down this epic mini-Gyarados, he still can't win, for Link will be hiding deep below the surface of the water. He merely has to wait until Master Khan tires of floating above the water, and falls, for Master Khan is the only character that my opponent has that can survive the sinking of the Titanic. A few strikes from a Clawshot will then eliminate Master Khan easily, end of story.

In conclusion, first, the Dark Magician eliminates Harold with the Mystic Box, then avoids CON's initial strikes with Magical Hats. He then fires Dark Magic Attack, killing Deadshot and injuring Hellboy, the Doctor, and Master Khan. He then proceeds to fire upon Team CON with the aid of Link sniping with arrows atop Cloud. This goes on until the Dark Magician falls, and Link has been sniped by the dead Deadshot (effectively never). If anybody dares to come to the bow of the ship, Gyarados (or eventually mini-Gyarados) will destroy them, and if all else fails, mini-Kirby will literally eat their brains. Team CON stands no chance. In any case, my opponent has no method of defeating an underwater, invisible Link.

Thank you, Chrysippus. This was a great Ultimate Team War. I look forward to your closing arguments, as well as any future Ultimate Team War debates that I hope you have. The Titanic proved to be a great place for battle. Good luck!


Mongeese, this has been great. Thank you for being my opponent, and making this UTW such fun; we should do this again.

I cannot change my plan this round, but I do not need to. My remarks will be limited to clearing up the few issues that might otherwise give my opponent a chance of winning.

"Yugi manages to use "Magical Hats" practically instantaneously to both protect his party and teleport them to a safer location."
"The Dark Magician immediately launches numerous deadly attacks merely by holding out his staff and looking in a random general direction, destroying the surrounding monsters in his trademark negative-color fashion."

Even with these new videos, DM's weaknesses are still apparent: His spells are not "instantaneous", but take seconds to take effect; and he can only use one at a time. We never see him using multiple attacks/defences, just one at a time.

In other words, when the Magic box shows up, my team is alerted to his arrival; and when the doors start to open, while he is still unable to cast a defensive spell, my team can destroy him. This was my plan, and I see no reason why it would not work.

I dispute the effectiveness of his multiple attack, as the monsters he is flying past seem completely unaffected by it; but as he is dead before he ever gets a chance to use it, it means nothing to this debate.

"My opponent counts on Deadshot to take care of Link, but, well, he's kind of dead."

As DM never gets the opportunity of taking out Deadshot, nor does DM know Deadshot's vital role in my plan, nor does my opponent remember that I have stated all through our debate that Khan is shielding the weaker members of my team (Hellboy, Deadshot, and poor Harold) from DM's magic attacks on the off chance DM didn't die right away, it's fairly safe to assume that Deadshot is alive and well to take on Link.

"Even if Deadshot were alive, he'd have a problem making out Link and Cloud in the nearly pitch-black night sky, especially when Link doesn't show his head until he's 1,000 feet away vertically."

Cloud is an easy target; being large, light grey, oddly shaped, and the only cloud up there with a scowl. Link just happens to be sitting on top of a giant bullseye.

"My opponent claims to get the same "ficitonal light source" that Link gets when he aims his Hero's Bow, but this light source happens to be whatever lights are on the ship itself. Surely, there are some lights on the Titanic at this time. I mean, this 800-foot ship can't be invisible to Link."

Conceded. For the eight minutes that the lights are on, the stern is easily visible from the air.

"Then its just a matter for Link to identify the stern, notice any movement at all on this small area, and fire with the incredible aid of his Hawkeye mask."

And he's shooting arrows, hoping to get through Deadshot's body armour?

Regardless, though, this does not happen. Cloud emerges from the window, starts to rise into the night sky, and gets hit by Deadshot. Remember that the stern is up in the air some distance already, and Cloud is off to the side of the ship; Deadshot has a clear shot even while Cloud is still in the light from the ship. Cloud dies, and Link goes into the water right off.

Once there, Link cannot use his ranged weapons. The bow, clawshot, boomerang, etc. all require him to be standing. While he is swimming, he cannot use them, and Deadshot is safe. It should be a simple task to pick him out of the water while he is still on the surface; otherwise Khan can take care of him later.

I concede that the fall, from no matter how high, will not KO Link; this will not save him, though.

"A microscopic Gyarados' Hyper Beam is just as powerful as a giant one. With this super-minimization, Gyarados will become the ultimate weapon, with all of his original power, defense, speed, and accuracy, but just plain impossible to actually spot."

This was my opponent's strongest point, and I admit it puzzled me for a while. My plan for dealing with the sea monster Gyarados is to shrink him and Kirby down to microscopic size, allowing me time to get rid of the rest of Pro's team. Now, it seemed like that plan backfired.

Let's examine this situation. Gyarados comes out a window near the bow of the Titanic (as Magikarp); ~800' away from my team, and very near (or under) the water. My team is on the top deck at the very stern, which is by this point well out of the water and rising through the entire battle. As Gyarados evolves, Khan hits him with a shrink spell; now, instead of a giant sea dragon, he is a sea dragon invisible to the unaided eye.

Now, instead of being able to cross that 800 feet in a matter of moments, each of those feet will take him hours to cross. His speed hasn't been decreased, but the relative distance has increased by several orders of magnitude.

There are 304,800 micrometers in a foot[1], and about 800 feet between Gyarados and my team. Gyarados was about 20 feet long before, according to my opponent's source, so the distance was about 40 times his length. Now he is about 1 or 2 micrometers long, so to him, each of those micrometers now equals about 20 feet. That 800 real feet has become, to him, a distance of 923,636 miles. [2]

Let that sink in.

To Gyarados, the Titanic's stern is now unimaginably far away. The circumference of the Sun is slightly smaller than that distance, in real miles. Gyarados has no hope of finding, reaching, or affecting this battle. Khan can kill him at his leisure; remember, the magicians do not need to know where a character is to target them.

(304,800 micrometers x 20 = the number of feet from Gyarados's perspective in each real foot; x 800 real feet = the total distance)

"Meanwhile, Tiny Kirby will invisibly jump on Master Khan's back without being noticed, then enter Master Khan's body..."

Kirby is basically a non-entity now. So tiny that he now must avoid being eaten by plankton, his ability to reach Master Khan is practically nil. From Kirby's perspective, he is now many thousands of miles away from the truly gargantuan Titanic; it would take centuries for him to reach Master Khan. Kirby will die long before that.

So, here is what happens.

DM casts Magic Box; poor Harold dies. As the Box opens, DM dies under the fire of Team Con.

Shortly thereafter, the rest of Team Pro begin to make their escape through the window. Deadshot picks off Cloud and Link; Kirby and Magicarp/Gyarados are caught in a shrink spell from Master Khan, and disappear.

Khan kills the Gyarados/Kirby duo, and levitates my entire team above the surface of the chilly North Atlantic as the RMS Titanic goes down, taking team Pro with it.

Thanks again, Mongeese; it's been fun. However the voters choose, I have enjoyed this battle; if another UTW Tournament ever gets started, I look forward to crossing swords with you again.
Debate Round No. 5
48 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mongeese 5 years ago
Actually, upon further checking, this was Shtookah's only vote. If he ever has the sense to repeal it, we'll let you know, Freeman.
Posted by mongeese 5 years ago
Thank you, Freeman.

Wait, does this mean that Shtookah's been vote-bombing all of my debates now? Shame...
Posted by Chrysippus 5 years ago
Ah, thank you, Freeman. I had given up on people ever coming to vote on this one, and since Maikuru voted I hadn't been on here. Otherwise I'd have countered the vote myself.

Seriously, people. Mongeese and I put a lot of time and effort into this UTW; it was loads of fun, and I don't care who wins - as long as they win fairly. PLEASE take just a little time, if you are going to vote, to tell us why you decided as you did.

It isn't rocket science.
Posted by Freeman 5 years ago
To counteract the unwarranted and irrational vote bomb of "Shtookah," I award Mongeese all 7 points. If the debate were one sided, I wouldn't bother to counteract 7 point votes, but this is not the case. Though they may still be undesirable, 7 point votes can be acceptable in the case of a shutout.

"Vote bombs" are only "vote bombs" if the side that is clearly not winning is receiving the points. If the outcome of the debate is ambiguous, points should always be dispersed fairly.
Posted by mongeese 5 years ago
I think most of the giving up of arguments came with a limit of character space. I was really tight for characters even after conceding Khan's ability to use his power. Had I the space, I wouldn't have made the concession. And if Chrysippus decided that Khan couldn't defend Harold in time after my Mystic Box attack, surrendering Harold's powers became a bonus for him, as Kirby could no longer gain any real power from the purple crayon as planned.

And yeah, I think we could have used the other passengers. Perhaps the Dark Magician should have included three of them in his Magical Hats trick. That would be fun.

Anyway, thanks for the vote! Now hopefully there are other UTW enthusiasts out there...
Posted by Chrysippus 5 years ago
Thanks for being our voter, Maikuru! :)
Posted by Maikuru 5 years ago
This was one of my favorite UTW's for a few reasons. The teams were unique and well rounded, the setting was unusual (though a bit underutilized; how is it that the other passengers never played a significant role?), and the edge seemed to go back and forth with each round.

I was also intrigued by both debaters opting to give up huge opportunities to clinch the victory. As I mentioned earlier, Harold could have easily dominated this entire clash if properly defended. For example, rather than spread Khan so thinly by forcing upon him so many responsibilities, why not simply have him spirit Harold away from the start and have the child completely and systematically decimate Team Pro? Similarly, Pro's argument against Khan's power source was solid and should not have been abandoned. After all, all of Pro's characters were self-sustaining, independent entities. Arguing that Kirby's physiology is impossible is very different than arguing that the very essence of Khan's power does not exist in this time frame.

In any case, Pro wins the arguments for me. Much of Con's case hinged on Khan, who was tasked with shielding team members, battling the Dark Magician, and shrinking and subsequently killing Gyarados and Kirby. Considering I was not convinced that DM could not perform multiple spells at once (Pro's video suggests otherwise) and that the combined efforts of Team Con could even defeat him, I doubt Khan's efforts to do any of these would succeed. With his failure comes the defeat of his entire team, handing the victory to Pro.

Excellent debate, guys. Great read =)
Posted by Chrysippus 5 years ago
Chuckle... 2 votes and no points for anyone yet :) I've never had a debate like this before!
Posted by mongeese 5 years ago
Gee, the voters sure love Ultimate Team War debates...
Posted by mongeese 5 years ago
No problem. Now to just wait for a few votes.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
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