Ultimate Team War - Rapture
Team leader: One of the debaters here, i.e. me or my opponent
Team member: One of the five chosen warriors.
Team Pro: My team.
Team Con: My opponent's team.
1. This war takes place in Rapture, the underwater city from Bioshock, onJuly 4th, 1958, before the Rapture Civil War.All people will be absent, as if they were evacuated.
2. No player may leave the furthest bounds of Rapture, nor may they go above sea level.
3. There will be no demi-god characters that are capable of travelling at ridiculous speeds, shattering almost any barriers in their way sustaining little damage to themselves, and wiping out anything, like Superman or Sentry, or anything more powerful than that. Nor will therebe any unlimited powers thatcannot be resisted.If you're in doubt, just ask.
4. Other illegal powers include time travel and mind control (taking over an opposing character).
5. Any team member must be either real or, if fictional, verifiably existent. No characters may be made up for the purpose of this debate.
6. In the case of a fictional character, the team member's abilities must be according to a specific canon chosen by the team leader.
7. Every character has only the equipment that they generally have in the specified canon.
8. Team members are absolutely loyal to the team leader. All team members are still subjected to their own emotions, however.
9. The team leader may not directly participate in the competition, but may only facilitate. The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team.
10. Neither team can have a member in common. If one team leader chooses a team member, the other team cannot have that character.
11. A team wins when all members of an opposing team are dead, unconscious, or essentially unusable. Characters who cannot be dead, unconscious, or unusable are not allowed.
12. In Rounds 4 and 5, neither debater may introduce completely new arguments, only new counter-arguments or clarifications of older arguments. In Round 5, CON may not post any new counter-arguments, except to counter new counter-arguments or clarifications.
13. The winning team automatically receives Arguments and Sources. Conduct, in addition to regular things, goes to the person who follows the rules most effectively. Please remember this rule.
Round 1: Rule specifications; PRO unveils first three team members, CON unveils all five team members. PRO also chooses the location of his team at the start of the fight; CON then chooses a different location.
Round 2: PRO unveils his final two team members and explains why his team is better. CON also begins his arguments.
Round 3, 4, 5: Arguments and rebuttals. CON may not present any new arguments during round 5, since PRO has no chance to rebut them.
My team will start in Arcadia, just outside the Tree Farm. My opponent must choose a different room.
Team Member 1: Mewtwo
This is the mighty Psychic Pokémon from the movie Mewtwo Strikes Back. He wields powerful psychic attacks, as well as many defensive and tricky maneuvers.
His wiki: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...(anime)
Team Member 2: Link
Link is a corageous Hylian clad in green, who wields a sword and a shield, altough he also has an array of other equipment to choose from. The specific Link I choose to use is the Hero of Time, from Majora's Mask, whose unique trait is the many masks that he can put on for magical effects. He also has the Triforce of Courage, which seems to grant him protection from dark magic and innate skill with weaponry and such things.
His wiki: http://zelda.wikia.com...
Team Member 3:Harry Potter
Harry is an Auror, a powerful wizard. He's also the Boy who Lived, and the Chosen One, and all that. He uses magic. He brings with him his treasured wand and his Invisibility Cloak.
His wiki: http://harrypotter.wikia.com...
I will post my other two team members and begin my arguments in Round 2, after my opponent posts his or her team members. Good luck, tvellalott!
Oh, and thanks to MTGandP for coming up with the entire concept of UltimateTeam War!
Jon the Shattered One
Extremely powerful mage. Main antagonist of Baldur's Gate II
Main character of God of War series. He is the mortal son of Zeus. I'll be using his GOWIII weapons and abilities.
Lone Predator sent to prevent a Xenomorph outbreak on Earth.
Jedi Master Mace Windu
The Jedi who would have beaten Darth Sidius (who later stalemated with Yoda) had Anakin not intervened. A master of all the Jedi arts and exemplary member of Jedi council.
Tony Stark, he's the man of steel, he's a real cool cat, he's the real deal.
Team Member 4: Magneto
Magneto is a villain from the Marvel universe. While physically not very powerful, he is very intelligent, and has the ability to manipulate magnetic fields to his benefit.
His wiki: http://marvel.com...(Max_Eisenhardt)
Team Member 5: Kyogre
Kyogre is named in mythology as the Pokémon that expanded the sea by covering the land with torrential rains and towering tidal waves. It took to sleep after a cataclysmic battle with Groudon.
Its wiki: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...(Pok%C3%A9mon)
My chosen canon is the anime.
Now, onto the battle!
My opponent has chosen in the comments section Olympus Heights as the starting location of his team.
At the start, Harry casts a Bubble-Head charm on himself, and transfigures Magneto's helmet so that it is a closed container, holding oxygen. He then casts Fiendfyre upon the trees in the Tree Farm, burning them to the ground and depriving Rapture of its source of oxygen. Concentrating, he redirects the Fiendfyre along the past towards Olympus Heights. I estimate that it would take about a minute for the fire to reach Olympus Heights.
Link puts on his Zora Mask, transforming into a Zora.
After about thirty seconds, as the tree farm is gone and the fire is well on its way, Mewtwo concentrates his psychic energy to destroy the Arcadia. Water comes pouring in, flooding the room. Mewtwo covers himself in a psychic bubble and floats out the hole that he has created; Link swims after him. Harry and Magneto hold on to Kyogre's back as Kyogre departs. Magneto uses his magnetic prowess to bend back metal to expand the created hole large enough for them to safely pass.
Team MONG quickly arrives in the water outside Olympus Heights. Mewtwo then concentrates again to destroy Olympus Heights like he did Team Rocket's research lab. Kyogre joins with a Hyper Beam attack, and Harry uses Expulso to add to the destruction. Magneto assists by ripping apart any metallic structure of Olympus Heights; this ability could destroy Iron Man, painfully ripping his suit in half, Jon, pulling out the artificial back of his skull, and Wolf, whose advanced technology would be robbed from him. Mace Windu would lose his lightsaber, and Kratos would lose any of his metallic weapons.
No member of Team TVELL seems like they'd be able to survive in the water with an ability to put up any real kind of fight, especially after the destructive collapse of Olympus Heights. My opponent would have to point out how they'd survive at this point, because I don't see how they could; I would then detail how my team would fight off these survivors. If the war is still going on after Olympus Heights has been destroyed, Team MONG will proceed to destroy other parts of Rapture until either the war ends in their victory or the enemy has been found.
Good luck, tvellalot, with your response. I look forward to reading it.
"Mewtwo concentrates his psychic energy to destroy the Arcadia. Water comes pouring in, flooding the room. Mewtwo covers himself in a psychic bubble..."
It's a shame Mewtwo didn't cover himself in the psychic bubble before causing the decompression that just killed his entire team.
Clearly my opponent didn't think out his plan too thoroughly...
-Rapture is located at the bottom of the North-Atlantic ocean. 
-The North-Atlantic ocean averages at about 8,900 feet deep. Even if we assume (which we can't) that it's only a quarter that, it's still more than 2000 feet. 
-Humans generally die from nitrogen narcosis at around 300 feet. 
-Even a whale must go through a lengthy decompression process to reach deeper depths. 
-None of my opponents team has any method of protecting them from this sudden extreme decompression or from nitrogen narcosis.
In otherwords, as soon as my opponent ruptures the protective glass, he causes a deadly decompression which kills all of his team. Even if he does manage to survive this decompression, his team members will be killed by nitrogen narcosis.
He doesn't take into account that both Iron man and Wolf will be capable of breathing without the oxygen provided by the trees he just destroyed.
So thanks mongeese, you made this battle very easy.
My opponent claims that the decompression caused by the shattering of the room will kill my team members before they can defend themselves. I disagree.
First of all, my opponent only gives sources describing the effects of the nitrogen narcosis. He mentions nothing about the actual damage or duration of the decompression process. If the processes take any longer than a few seconds (which it probably will, as Mewtwo is only creating a hole through which to escape, as opposed to blowing the entire room up), my teamwould notice the effects, and takeemergency evasiveprocedures. Harry would be able to apparate himself, Magneto, and Link to the Hephaestus, from which they can lead an unexpected march to Olympus Heights, aided by another surprise apparition.
Once there, Magneto can single-handedly handle Iron Man, Jon, and Wolf, as they are so susceptible to his magnetic manipulation. Link would take on Kratos in the most epic sword fight the world has ever seen, naturally after donning the Fierce Diety's Mask. Harry would take on Mace Windu; Expelliarmus would disable him, and Avada Kedavra would kill him.Harry would then aid Link in taking out Kratos; after that, the three warriors can easily eliminate the remaining three foes one by one. Meanwhile, Mewtwo and Kyogre would be working on destroying Olympus Heights from the outside, as initially planned. Harry, Magneto, and Link would die in a heroic sacrifice, having distracted the foe long enough for their ultimate destruction.
Mewtwo would have absolutely no problem with the supposed dangers of destruction at such depths.The instant after the walls collapse, he would create a psychic bubble around himself, protecting him from the changing pressure, which is the cause of both decompression and narcosis. Obviously, the pressure of the room isn't going to change in an instant, so Mewtwo is safe; even if the pressure changed slightly, it wouldn't harm Mewtwo, built to be a biological fighting machine. His body was built for tough situations like this.
Finally, we come to Kyogre, who is essentially an über whale. Kyogre actually spent most of its life sleeping in the deepest marine trench in the Pokemon world, at the bottom of the sea ; it is naturally capable of handling the ocean's depths. My opponent points to a "lengthy decrompression process" required for whales, but nowhere in the article that he cites does it say that the whale actually takes that long to adapt to the water's pressure. It only suggests that it takes a while (actually only about twenty-seven minutes) to get to such low depths, not to correct their body organs for the depth's pressure. It's quite likely that a whale can adapt to the pressure extremely quickly, and as Kyogre is the ultimate whale, it will adapt almost instantly. A sperm whale can hold its breath for about two hours, but Kyogre has slept at the bottom of the sea for millennia; comparing a sperm whale's survivability to Kyogre's is like comparing the sturdiness of a piece of paper to that of an entire tree. Even if there are some problems with correcting for the pressure, this sudden change is unlikely to be enough to kill Kyogre or even knock Kyogre unconscious; it might just have a little headache that would take a bit of sitting time to clear. After that, it can continue on its epic rampage.
There's also Zora Link, who will end up in the water if Harry doesn't pull him out through appirition. As a Zora, Link was able to survive at great depths in the Great Bay Temple while suffering no ill effects for three whole days.
Add the fact that Link, Mewtwo, and Kyogre are made of iron , and there's no reason to expect any of them to be incapacitated by water pressure. Finally, Zora Link breathes directly from the water, so he is unaffected by narcosis, and Kyogre has already breathed the air that it intends to use, and as narcosis affects compressed air, not inhaled air, it is also immune.
According to my opponent, Iron Man and Wolf can survive the loss of oxygen. This seems to be an indication that the other three enemies will die from the lack of oxygen. As Magneto was given a protective helmet, Link can use carbon dioxide instead as a Deku, and Harry has his Bubble-Head Charm, they will survive, and will easily take down Iron Man and Wolf in a one-on-one fight. Of course, my opponent gives no plan for Iron Man and Wolf to escape the destruction of Olympus Heights. It only takes Harry, Mewtwo, or Kyogre to succeed in bringing town the entire of Team TVELL.
I am, according to Rule #12, still allowed to introduce new arguments, as it is still Round 3. Based on this response, I have a new plan:
Mewtwo shrouds himself in a psychic bubble at the start. Harry executes Fiendfyre as intended. Harry then apparates Magneto and Link to Hephaestus, where they march on Olympus Heights. Mewtwo then bursts a hole in the Arcadia, pressurizing the room, and Kyogre quickly adapts to this new environment. Mewtwo then concentrates more to make the hole in Arcadia large enoguh for Kyogre to swim through, and the two of them quickly travel to the outside of Olympus Heights. From here, the plan is entirely the same as before, with epic battles and ultimate destruction.
I would like to remind my opponent that according to Rule #12, he only has one remaining round to make new arguments, so unless he is extremely confident in his water-flows-everybody-dies argument, he had better have a back-up plan. Good luck, tvellalot. I look forward to reading your response.
I purpose that Mace Windu can kill Magneto with FORCE CHOKE  without being in the same room as him. Irenicus will teleport (using GATE ) the group to the Rapture Control Centre, where Tony Stark will be able to operate the camera system (Ryan uses it throughout the entire first game) and bring Magneto up on screen. I don’t even need to venture into Non-Canon material to show that it’s possible for a sufficiently powerful force wielder to kill someone via a view screen. Darth Vader does it in Episode V.
This leaves the Harry Potter and Link to take on my entire team, which would clearly be a slaughter.
Knowing exactly where they are, via the cameras, Irenicus teleports the group into a position to ambush.
Neither Link nor Harry Potter has the ability to sense, so it would be a suburb surprise attack.
Mace Windu and Kratos attack Link, who would no doubt fight valiantly, but would simply be outmatched.
Irenicus casts “Power Word: Stun” , Iron Man fires a volley of blasts from his palm cannons and Wolf fires his shoulder cannon at Harry Potter. He may have a chance to defend one of the attacks with a deflection or shield spell, but the barrage of the attacks would definitely kill him.
My opponent will no doubt argue that oxygen is quickly running out because of his bastardly act and he is correct. But, this battle has been five minutes at the most so far, hardly enough for Rapture to be devoid of oxygen.
*sigh* I have been trying to work out for three days how to approach this and this is the only viable attack plan I could come up with.
The group seal themselves in back in the Rapture Control Centre, which would clearly have sufficient oxygen to last long enough for them to implement the follow set of actions. It’s a long shot, but I essentially have no choice.
Mace Windu goes into a deep Force Meditation, reaching out to sense the locations of Kyogre and Mewtwo; via telepathy he can communicate this information to Irenicus. Wolf begins his self-destruct mechanism. As we saw in the original Predator movie, it only takes about a minute. With three seconds left, Irenicus uses Gate to teleport Wolf right on top of Mewtwo. The resulting explosion would obliterate both of them.
This leaves Kyogre. Irenicus casts “Wish”  and Mace Windu (who clearly has the highest wisdom of the group, the variable of the spells success) and asks that Kyogre is teleported into the room.
Once in the room, my remaining four team members would clearly rip the uber whale pokemon apart.
While my opponent's plans are very creative and resourceful, he both underestimates the power of my team members and overestimates the power of his own; this shall lead to his downfall.
Let's start with Magneto, who is being threatened with Mace Windu's Force Choke through a security camera. While Darth Vader was able to pull off a technique, "those most experienced with Force Grip needed only a live visual of their victim in order to perform the technique" . This applies to Darth Vader, who uses the move as punishment for subordinates on a daily basis, but not Mace Windu, who rarely uses it. It's unlikely that the move would work at all, especially to the point that Magneto wouldn't be able to use magnetism to destroy the security camera, freeing him.
There's also Magneto's helmet, which was designed to block telepathic attacks, a category to which Force Chokes belong.
Magneto now gets to join Link and Harry in the fight against all of Team TVELL. He can use his magnetic powers to randomly spin Iron Man, Wolf, and Irenicus, essentially disabling them as they cannot aim their attacks or concentrate. Link fights off Kratos, allowing Harry to first disarm Mace Windu with Expelliarmus, and then kill him with Avada Kedavra. Magneto would be able to interrupt the sword fight by magnetically freezing Kratos' weapons, exposing him to a fatal onslaught from Link; Harry could accomplish something similar with Petrificus Totalus. Iron Man would then be ripped apart and killed with Reducto, Wolf would be killed by having Kratos' weapons driven through its body, and Mace Windu would be struck with numerous Light Arrows.
Note that my opponent's plans regarding this fight rely on outnumbering my team; with Magneto able to handle three foes at once, the plans fail.
Now, even if the noble trio falls, Mewtwo and Kyogre remain. To take out Mewtwo, my opponent intends to use a self-destructing Wolf. This plan requires that Mace Windu, Wolf, and Irenicus survive the above fight, which is extremely unlikely. Even if it did work, and Wolf appeared close to Mewtwo, he would be able to quickly use Disable to essentially disable the explosion, and then use Psychic to banish Wolf from his psychic bubble and into the water, where he is crushed by the sudden increase in pressure. Mewtwo lives. He then proceeds in his plan of destroying Rapture, and Team TVELL with it.
We then come to my opponent's "Wish" technique against Kyogre, which requires Irenicus and Mace Windu. Mace Windu wishes for Kyogre to be teleported into their room. However, "Wish" is a rather tricky and vague spell, with odd side effects, rarely having the actual desired effect . And so, yes, Kyogre has been teleported into the room, but Kyogre is the originator of the sea, so along with it comes enough water to flood all of Rapture. Nobody in Team TVELL saw that coming, so they are completely surprised by the results; they don't even have the time to take a breath. Kyogre only sees that the enemy is here, and is ready for destruction. It blasts a Hyper Beam through the side of the wall, breaking it. The water pressure suddenly increases, further nauseating Team TVELL. None of them will be able to take down Kyogre in a water fight, and none of them have the concentration to escape.
In conclusions, I have divided my team into three groups: Mewtwo; Kyogre; and Link, Harry, and Magneto. Each group has a highly effective plan for victory that is independent of the others; only one needs to succeed for Team MONG's victory. I am confident that all of the plans can succeed.
Good luck with your next round, tvellalot.
I apologise to my opponent for not posting sources for my last round. I was rushing to write my response before I had to go out and I just spaced on it, so here they are:
It seems that my success rides almost completely on defeating Magneto and I think my plan of attack will be very successful.
First of all, Mace Windu is well and truly capable of using Force Grip on Magneto via the camera. The man is the former Grand Master of the Jedi Council. We see via the very source my opponent posted Mace Windu using Force Wave, an extremely powerful form of Force Push (which Force Grip is also derived from) to send hundreds of droids flying away from him.
Force Grip is a much less powerful ability than this. The only reason that Mace Windu wouldn’t use Force Grip (and again, I strongly feel that he would have absolutely no difficulty with it and I’m sure the voters will agree) is because it is considered a ‘Dark Side’ ability. Clearly that is irrelevant in this battle.
Second, my opponent claims that this is a telepathic ability, yet he very well knows that it is a telekinetic ability and Magneto’s helmet is no defence against it.
Finally, there is no chance that my opponent’s team would think to destroy a security camera while Magneto is floating a foot above the ground choking to death; they wouldn’t know that was the source of the attack.
So, my attack on Harry and Link works as I suggested it would, with an all-out onslaught by my entire team.
I think my opponents defence against this attack is bollocks too.
I specifically stated that the team would wait three seconds before detonation before teleporting Wolf to Mewtwo. This gives Mewtwo less than two seconds to react to the completely surprise attack. There is nothing on the Mewtwo page to suggest it has precognition or super reflexes.
I admit that this is the most dubious part of my plan. However, I luckily chose Mace Windu as one of my characters for other reasons and he fortunately adds significant chance of success to it.
You see Wish  works based on Wisdom; my source states “wisdom of 18 is nigh-on essential to get the most out of this spell”. This is not a particularly high Wisdom for a high-level character. If Mace Windu were a D&D character, I suggest his wisdom would be much higher than that, perhaps as much as 22; clearly he would be successful with “I wish that Kyogre would be transported into this room.”
My opponent has split up his arguments into three components, each of which he much win for victory.
My opponent is correct in that Mace Windu is very fluent with the power of the Force. However, my source specifically states that the power to attack through a live feed camera is gained through experience with the Force Choke, not the Force Push or the Force in general. This suggests that while proficiency with the Force is required to use certain Force abilities, experience with each individual ability strengthens that ability; using one variant of the Force does not necessarily grant one a more powerful use of another variant. In this way, one would have to practice the Force Choke, and not other variants, to master the Force Choke, and Mace Windu would be incapable of his attack. At the very least, the attack would be slow enough for Magneto to have the chance to destroy the security camera that allowed the attack before any permanent damage can be done, but more on that later.
It is true that the Force Grip is a telekinetic ability, but that does not mean that Magneto has no defense. In my source, Magneto's helmet was stated to prevent psionic attacks; telekinesis is a form of psionics . Therefore, Magneto is safe from the Force Grip from the start.
Finally, my opponent claims that nobody would know why Magneto is floating in the air, and would therefore be unable to help him. However, Harry, Link, and Mewtwo are rather resourceful and intelligent fellows, and the visible effects of the Force Grip make the identity of the attack fairly obvious. Note that I have before clarified that in Ultimate Team War, all characters are aware of their opponent's powers . Any of them can quickly conclude that Magneto is being attacked by Force Grip, and realize that this only works at a distance through security cameras. An arrow from Link, a Repulso from Harry, or a harsh glare from Mewtwo would destroy the camera, freeing Magneto from the Force Grip. Magneto himself could realize what is happening during the Force Choke, and destroy the camera or ruin its circuitry through magnetism.
With these contentions, Magneto, Link, and Harry continue to attack Team TVELL head-on, in a battle that goes uncontestedly in my favor.
My opponent questions Mewtwo's reflexes. Mewtwo is a Psychic Pokemon, which indicates a powerful mind, and even has a second spinal cord, which would increase the speed of the neural system, and therefore its reflexes. When Wolf suddenly appears on top of Mewtwo, his first reaction would have to be, "Oh my Arceus, there's something attached to me, I had better disable it before it can harm me." This shouldn't take any longer than two seconds.
With Wolf destroyed, Mewtwo proceeds to destroy Rapture, and the rest of Team TVELL in the process.
My opponent's source is rather odd for this point. It does agree that wisdom increases the chance of getting good wishes, but it also states that when Wish is used, a random list of wishes is created from a larger list. None of these wishes teleport foes in any way. So, this source actually goes against my opponent, rather than for him, as his wish can no longer achieve his desired goal, and Kyogre is free to wreck havoc by destroying Rapture.
My opponent might argue that any wish can be made because we are not restricting ourselves to a video game, as my own source (which comes from the same Wiki as my opponent's page about Jon) about Wish suggests. However, this source mentions nothing about wisdom boosting the chances of the wish succeeding. It also states that the meaning of wishes can be twisted to great extremes. Immortality apparently also includes an unbreakable life sentence; the most extreme example is:
PLAYER:"I wish to be a god!" DM: "You are now a god but you suddenly lose your godship" 
Losing godship doesn't even seem to be part of the wish statement at all; it just happens. In comparison to these twists, adding water to the wish to teleport the mighty Kyogre against its will seems perfectly reasonable.
If a Djinn needed a justification, it would be that Kyogre was teleported in by creating a portal that connected the room with a particular point in the ocean. As Kyogre entered the portal, so did the water, and at an extremely rapid speed, quickly flooding the entire room before anyone could even blink and eventually all of Rapture, until the pressure on each side of the portal was equalized, leaving the system in equilibrium. This still obeys the requirement of teleporting Kyogre into the room in a rather simple manner; the method used was just rather destructive and counter-productive.
To conclude this point, the only source that supports my opponent's wish also makes it rather clear that deadly side-effects are in order; either no wish occurs or a suicidal wish occurs.
In conclusion, any of the three divisions of my team could take down all of Team TVELL, so my opponent must defeat each division individually, a task that seems impossible. Victory for Team MONG is inevitable.
Thank you, tvellalot, for this debate, and thank you, readers, for reading this debate. I would like to remind everybody to read Rules 12 and 13 before voting. Thank you, and good luck.
I hope this doesn't disappoint my opponent too much.
I've genuinely been stumped in this battle, much like I was in our last one.
I hope perhaps to do a battle with my opponent somewhere where the environment isn't going to be the hugely deciding factor.
Congratulations to mongeese. >_<
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