The Instigator
mongeese
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
Mr_Anon
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Ultimate Team War - Skyward Sword's Hyrule

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after 1 vote the winner is...
mongeese
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/2/2012 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,368 times Debate No: 20179
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (21)
Votes (1)

 

mongeese

Pro

This is Ultimate Team War. Each debater must assemble a team of five characters, and the teams will then fight to the death(ish). Since we cannot have an actual real-life battle, each debater will explain why their team is superior during this debate.

This battle takes place in Hyrule, more specifically the Hyrule of the time of The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword.

DEFINITIONS
Team leader: One of the debaters here, i.e. me or my opponent
Team member: One of the five chosen warriors.
Team Pro: My team.
Team Con: My opponent's team.

RULES
1. This fight occurs in Skyward Sword's Hyrule, inlcuding the sky, Skyloft, the Thunderhead, all islands, and the Faron, Eldin, and Lanayru Provinces. Everything is just as destructible or movable as it would be in the game. (Trees, for example, are destructible, but houses are not.) All characters are limited by the natural bounds that appear in the game. Assume that everything is just as it was at the end of the game, just before the final saving point as Link enters the final battle. For the purpose of avoiding time-travel madness, all Gates of Time are permanently deactivated, and no Timeshift Stones may be moved beyond their original bounds.
2. All NPCs are absent, leaving only the monsters that naturally appear at this point in the game. A Loftwing is available for each human character used; while not ridden, each Loftwing will fly around the sky closest to its human.
3. When the team leader chooses a team member, he must also choose a location for that team member, which can be any specific location within the bounds of this war.
4. There will be no demi-god characters that are capable of travelling at ridiculous speeds, shattering almost any barriers in their way sustaining little damage to themselves, and wiping out anything, like Superman or Sentry, or anything more powerful than that. Nor will there be any unlimited powers that cannot be resisted. If you're in doubt, just ask.
5. Other illegal powers include time travel and mind control (taking over an opposing character), with the aforementioned exception of the Timeshift Stones.
6. Any team member must be either real or, if fictional, verifiably existent. No characters may be made up for the purpose of this debate.
7. In the case of a fictional character, the team member's abilities must be according to a specific canon chosen by the team leader.
8. Every character has only the equipment that they generally have in the specified canon, or any equipment they would use in air combat. Note that this may not include live equipment that could be counted as a separate character.
9. Team members are absolutely loyal to the team leader. All team members are still subjected to their own emotions, however.
10. The team leader may not directly participate in the competition, but may only facilitate. The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team.
11. Neither team can have a member in common. If one team leader chooses a team member, the other team cannot have that character.
12. A team wins when all members of an opposing team are dead, unconscious, or essentially unusable. Characters who cannot be dead, unconscious, or unusable are not allowed.
13. Neither debater may create new arguments and plans after Round 3; they may only create new counter-arguments and clarify old arguments. In Round 5, CON may not produce new counter-arguments, except to counter PRO's new counter-arguments or clarifications.
14. The winning team automatically receives Arguments and Sources. Conduct, in addition to regular things, goes to the person who follows the rules most effectively. Please remember this rule.

Round 1: Rule specifications; PRO has informed Maikuru of his five chosen team members, as well as their locations. CON chooses five team members as well, and informs Maikuru. If there are no matches in team members, CON posts those five team members, as well as their locations. Otherwise, he chooses a substitute team member.

Round 2: PRO unveils his five team members and their positions, then proceeds to explain how his team would win. CON then responds with a counter-strategy.

Round 3, 4, 5: Arguments and rebuttals. No new plans may be made after Round 3. CON may not present any new arguments during round 5, since PRO has no chance to rebut them.

Oh, and thanks to MTGandP for coming up with the entire concept of Ultimate Team War, and to Maikuru for agreeing to be the mediator!
Mr_Anon

Con

Alright, this is my first time trying one of these, but it looks fun. Anyways, here's my team.


Link (Ocarina of Time)
Equiped as he is right before fighting Ganondorf, just after getting the golden gauntlet. Possesses Biggoron's sword, but also has Master Sword in inventory. Knows all Ocarina Songs (not sure how he can warp in this Hyrule). Has 4 empty bottles all filled with fairies, as well as all Great Fairy powers and bonuses, and Hylian Shield.
(http://zelda.wikia.com......)
Stands at the top of the Great Tree in Faron Woods.

Eragon (Inheritance Cycle)
Equiped as he is right before obtaining Eldunari from Vault of Souls. Possesses immense magical ability, as well as magical sword Brisingr. Also has powerful telepathic abilities
(http://inheritance.wikia.com......)
Positioned on top of his dragon Saphira.

Saphira (Inheritance Cycle)
Powerful female dragan of Eragon, she also has immense magical powers, the ability to breath blue fire, extremely tough scales, and vey sharp teeth and claws.
(http://inheritance.wikia.com......)
Flying 50 feet over Lanayru desert.

Makuta Teridax (Bionicle series)
Hard to describe him (probably easier to just read his wiki page). Has 42 unique powers, ability to absorb enemies using a shadow claw. Is in his form right before battling Toa Vakama. Because not doing so would make him broken, his quick-dodging, rapid-healing, and invincibility abilities will be significantly weaker than that page suggests.
(http://biosector01.com......)
List of powers (http://biosector01.com......)
Standing at the summit of Eldin Volcano, just outside the room that requires an immense amount of water to open.

General Grevious (Star Wars)
Intelligent droid commander. Equiped with four lightsabers, electrostaff, blaster, and grappling hook. Standing next to Link.
(http://starwars.wikia.com......)

I have clarified any possible confusions in the comments section, and I am ready to begin. May the best team win!
Debate Round No. 1
mongeese

Pro

Thank you, Mr_Anon, for accepting this debate. Now, for my team:

My team:
Link, Hero of Legend (Skyward Sword), equipped completely with pre-battle equipment (Hylian Shield, five bottles of Guardian Potion +, a Potion Medal, a Large Quiver, and a Large Bomb Bag). He expertly weilds the Master Sword that he forged with sacred flame with all of his experience of both the Knight Academy and his many adventures, as well as such versatile items as the Bow, the Double Clawshot, and the Beetle. He stands in front of the first Bird Statue in the Sacred Grounds.
http://zelda.wikia.com...

Demon Lord Ghirahim (Skyward Sword), in all of his demonic and creepy glory. He, too, is an expert of the sword, regarding himself as a weapon of destruction. He stands on Blue-Eyes' head.
http://zelda.wikia.com...

Harry Potter (book series, epilogue of Deathly Hallows), the Boy Who Lived and the Chosen One, a powerful auror. He stands next to Link.
http://harrypotter.wikia.com...

Mewtwo (Mewtwo Strikes Back movie), the powerful Psychic clone of Mew, floating above Link and Harry in a psychic bubble.
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...(anime)

Blue-Eyes White Dragon (Yu-Gi-Oh! anime), Seto Kaiba's favorite monster. This legendary dragon is a powerful engine of destruction. Virtually invincible, very few have faced this awesome creature and lived to tell the tale. It flies twenty feet above Skyloft's highest point.
http://yugioh.wikia.com...

With that, let us begin!

To start, Mewtwo touches down to the ground, and Link gulps down one of his Guardian Potions and hands one to Harry, who drinks it. Harry grabs his hand and Link's, and they apparate to fifty feet away from where Ocarina Link and General Grevious stand.

Mewtwo uses his psychic powers to crush Grevious' robotic body as if he were a bug, and Skyward Link charges at Ocarina Link, ready for combat. With his enhanced endurance and the shield-bashing technique, Skyward Link is sure to defeat Ocarina Link; Harry's assistance with a single Disarming Charm, as well as a Finite Incantatem to cancel any attempts at Farore's Wind or Nayru's Love and four Summoning Charms to remove his four bottles and pocket them himself, makes the battle even surer.

After Ocarina Link and Grevious are taken care of, Harry apparates the trio to the summit of Eldin Volcano, close to where Makuta Teridax hides. Makuta is rather fragile, since because he is energy contained by armor; Mewtwo crushes the armor as he crushed Grevious, destorying him.

Meanwhile, in the sky, Blue-Eyes dives down to attack Eragon and Saphira with a Burst Stream of Destruction through the clouds. Ghirahim summons a tornado to throw Eragon off of Saphira; if this connects, Eragon will die in his fall. When Blue-Eyes is close enough to Saphira to aim, it takes out her fragile wings in two mighty blasts, while Ghirahim blocks any counterattacks with diamond barriers.

After Harry, Link, and Mewtwo are done with their fights, they join the trio as Harry apparates all of them into the sky, and Link and Harry fly on Loftwings. Link flies to the nearest rock in the sky and fires arrows from a distance, sniping Eragon, should he still live, and Saphira, whose eyes and wings are vulnerable. Harry flies close and uses the Killing Curse on Eragon; after Eragon is taken out, he uses the Conjunctivitis Curse on Saphira's eyes to blind her, making it easier for Blue-Eyes to destroy her. Mewtwo uses Psychic to freeze Eragon's body, then throw him to the ground at high speeds. If Eragon resists, he will be too distracted to take care of his other worries. This assault, combined with a constant Burst Stream of Destruction, ensures that Eragon and Saphira will fall.

Any complications to my plans shall be addressed in future rounds. Meanwhile, it is your turn, Mr_Anon! Good luck!
Mr_Anon

Con

I thank my opponent for posting his strategy. I admit that I expected his team, given that he had used it in his previous attempt at this debate, and had tried to predict his strategies before hand. However, I will concede that I forgot about Mewtwo in this. Nonetheless, I believe I can still defeat Pro's team.

First off, my opponent claims that Mewtwo is 50 feet away from the Hero of Time and General Grievous, yet he is able to psychically crush him. I contest that this is impossible, as the top of the Great Tree is on a large branch jutting out of the side ( see video). 50 feet away would be around the trunk of the tree. In other words, Mewtwo would not be able to crush him without at least being able to see his target . By the time Mewtwo gets within range to attack Grievous, the droid general will be able to fire his blaster at Mewtwo. While perhaps not enough to severely the Pokémon, it should be enough to t least distract him from being able to crush Grievous. Since Harry Potter and Link are attacking my Link, Grievous should be able to press this distraction and get close enough to cut Mewtwo into many pieces with his lightsabers.

Link should be fighting Harry Potter and my opponent's Link very close by, so Grievous can turn to fight Harry Potter. Since Harry's spells are energy-based, Grievous can block them with his lightsabers and separate him from his team mate. Note that even though Harry has not gotten the chance to use any spells on the Hero of Time, Finite Incantaem would not affect my Link. I reason this because it is safe to assume that the magic in Harry Potter is not governed by the same rules as the magic in the Zelda series (or the magic in the Inheritance cycle). I other words, just as Eragon's wards against specific spells would not block Harry's attacks, any of Harry's spells that affect magic itself would be useless against Link.

As it is, though both Harry and my opponent's Link have guardian potions, these only protect their users against physical harm, so they can still be knocked out. Because Harry cannot afford to get close to Grievous and must resort to apparition to avoid blaster fire, Grievous has the time to also attack my opponent's Link. Pressed against two opponent's, my Link will almost certainly be knocked out. Once this is done, the Hero of Time takes Pro's Link's whip and ties him up with it. He then takes all remaining guardian potions and drops the Link into the pond below. I estimate the Link's potion only has 2:00 left, and will likely be unconscious longer, he will drown (this means that from now on in this argument, "Link" will refer to my team member). Harry Potter will be killed shortly after, either by Grievous' blaster or the Hero of Time's arrows.

Link and Grievous take Link' loftwing to Skyloft where they both heal themselves by resting on stools (though at this point the War as likely one as I will explain). While the skirmish at the Great Tree was going on, Teridax teleports to Skyloft and intercepts Blue-eyes and Girahim. Using his Gravity and Vaccum powers, he forces Blue-eyes to crash into the ground. Girahim has only one projectile attack he can use against Makuta, the red spikes. Makuta, holding his staff of darkness, can easily block this. Because this battle is in the air, Girahim cannot teleport near Makuta. And since the vaccuum also includes Girahim, the Demon Lord is forced to escape. To prevent this from happening, Makuta creates a statis field around Girahim, preventing him from moving. Should Girahim somehow bypass this, Teridax can read his mind and and know where he plans on teleporting. However, he will not pursue, instead staying to maintain his Vaccuum and Gravity on Blue-eyes until the dragon crashes into and island or the surface. While is is doing this, he informs Eragon and Saphira Girahim's plans through telepathy and they pursue him.

At this point it is 5 on one and it is safe to assume the combined team can easily destroy Girahim, wherever he is.
Debate Round No. 2
mongeese

Pro

Thank you, Mr_Anon, for your response.

First off, when Harry teleports the trio to 50 feet away from Grievous, he does not put them on the tree, instead opting to hover over the air. Mewtwo casually keeps Harry and Skyward Link in the air with him using his psychic powers while destroying Grievous, then drops them off on the tree to fight Ocarina Link. If Harry must teleport onto the tree, Mewtwo can still float around to see Grievous without putting himself in danger of attack; if Grievous does get a shot on Mewtwo, which is unlikely as he will need time to aim against a quickly moving target and Mewtwo needs little time for destruction, his psychic forcefield will absorb the blow, and Grievous still goes down anyway. He's simply much too fragile to survive in this combat.

My opponent refer's to Harry's attacks as "energy-based," but it's quite a different form of attack, magic. Magic is certainly never referred to as energy canonically. If Grievous' blast manages to distract Mewtwo enough to prevent a full-out psychic assault, which I doubt, Harry's Expelliarmus will certainly do the trick in disarming him of all of his weapons, rendering Grievous completely useless and open to a fatal Blasting Curse.

Meanwhile, the two Links engage. My opponent argues that because the rules of magic are different in the multiple worlds involved in this fight, they cannot interact each other, but I would think that spells are spells, and there are enough similarities in magic across different worlds (Dark Arts vs. Dark Magic, Avada Kedavra vs. Deyja, Din's Fire vs. Brisingr vs. Confringo, Nayru's Love vs. Protego vs. Skölir, etc.) that any reasonable interactions between different forms of magic would occur. There is also precedent for this in the LM Classic debate of Logical_Master versus mongoose (#9454), in which it was agreed that the Keyblade of Kingdon Hearts would be a suitable substitute for the Master Sword despite the difference of canon. This is irrelevant, however, as the Hero of Legend will defeat the Hero of Time anyway with his more advanced techniques and longer time of invulnerability.

My opponent claims that despite the use of the Guardian Potion +, Link and Harry may still be knocked out, but this is false. No matter how many blows one who uses such a potion takes, he will take no damage, although he can still be manipulated, similar to Nayru's Love. Even if it were true, Grievous is not available to help, having been destroyed by either Mewtwo or Harry. If Ocarina Link did try to kill Harry with arrows, Harry would have disarmed him so fast Link wouldn't have time to get out his bow, let alone aim; note that without Navi, the Hero of Time may not Z-target.

Part of my opponent's plan involves Ocarina Link and Grievous sitting on stools to recover health. While Link may be able to do this given Skyward Link's success, there is nothing to suggest that Grievous will heal himself at all by merely sitting on a stool.

Moving on to Teridax, my opponent claims that he teleports up to Skyloft, but there is no article in the BS01 Wiki on teleportation, so it is unclear whether or not he actually may teleport to such an extent, with unknown range and speed. My opponent suggests that Gravity powers are enough to force Blue-Eyes to crash, but the wiki indicates that Gravity only grants limited flight, so if it can't even grant complete flight, it will hardly be turbulence for the Blue-Eyes White Dragon, who has such flight power that it could reach and destroy the Satellite Cannon 240 miles above the Earth's atmosphere. Vacuum will be similarly ineffective.
http://www.4kidstv.com... (7:38 - 8:05) (18:50 - 19:59)

My opponent claims that Ghirahim can't get to Makuta in the air, but that is false, as he has demonstrated the ability to create and manipulate platforms at his own discretion, and creates one such platform beneath Makuta. He then teleports into the air directly above Makuta and slams down with his swords, destroying him. (Video 1, 7:34 - 7:40) Should this fail, Blue-Eyes is still free to use Burst Stream of Destruction to kill Makuta, and Ghirahim teleports back onto Blue-Eyes, ready to send a tornado after Eragon and Saphira. Teridax will have difficulty reading the mind of a fast-moving target like Ghirahim. My opponent references statis fields, but such things are never mentioned in the BS01 Wiki, so I don't believe they exist, and even if they did, I doubt they would stop Ghirahim's teleportation.

This leaves Saphira and Eragon, who currently only pursue Ghirahim and therefore have no strategy in place to deal with Mewtwo, Harry Potter, Link, Blue-Eyes, or even Ghirahim, actually, so Team PRO takes victory unless Team CON can come up with a successful plan for this situation.

Good luck with your next response, Mr_Anon.
Mr_Anon

Con

I thank my opponent for his response.

Pro did not make it clear at the beginning that Mewtwo was 50 feet in the air. However, this still creates problems. Because my opponent claims Mewtwo "drops" his teammates, I assume he is above the platform Grievous is standing on, indicating that he is in the leaves, in other words he cannot see Grievous or my Link. In addition, I highly doubt that Mewtwo has the mental concentration to ignore blaster fire, hold a psychic shield hover in the air, lift his teammates with him, and psychicly crush Grevious at the same time. In addition, I cannot find evidence that Mewtwo has a psychic shield power, or the power to psychically crush victims like this. In any case, I alter my strategy slightly so that Link also fires a light arrow along with Grievous' blaster fire. If the combined attacks are incapable of at least breaking Mewtwo's shield, I claim Mewtwo as a "God character" and therefore disqualified.

Because Mewtwo's shield is broken, Grievous can simply fire his blaster again and kil the pokemon. My opponent claims that spells are not energy-based. However, magic certainly described as light. Lightsabers are cabable of defecting any object with an electromagnetic energy field (http://starwars.wikia.com...). Light-based attacks, being electromagnetc radiation, fit in this category. However, even assuming that lightsabers cannot deflect projectile-based spells, Grievous can still dodge, which is a possible option, given his mechanical reflexes. Expelliarmus is a projectile-based attack, and can be dodged. In addition, if lasers and magic are completely different, Harry has no way to block Grievous' blaster attacks and will be knocked back.

My opponent's reasoning when claiming that the magics between canons are the same is flawed. His "similarities" are merely spells that have similar affects. There are many, many differences. Magic in the Inheritance cycle draws from the energy of its user. Harry Potter Magic does not. Magic in Zelda does not require specific speech or motions to use. Harry Potter magic does. They are different canons, and refer to different definitions of "magic".

While the Guardian Potion + does resist bodily harm, it has been shown that Link can still be stunned. For example, when struck by an electric attack, he will still be stunned for a few seconds. In addition, because my opponent's Link does not have a stamina potion, he can still get tired and run out of energy. Repeated strikes from lightsabers will undoutably stun him and wear him out. He can them be forced unconcious by strangulation. As for Harry, a blaster hit will knock him down, and Grievous can use this oppurtunity to get close to him, pin him down, and zap him into unconcsious using his electrostaff. They can then drop both unconscious opponents into the water and kill them (and steal Link's remaining guardian potions).

As for Teridax battling Blue-Eyes, Gravity powers in the bionicle powers are quite often used to pin an opponent down to the ground as described by Biosector, Makuta have the power to "[use] gravity control to crush any object in visual range". A dragon that flies using wings requires air in order to fly. If this air is deprived, it cannot fly (in addition, it requires air to breath in the first place). I will also alter my strategy slightly here and have Eragon and Saphira join Teridax in the sky. Girahim, being forced to use a platform away from Blue-eyes, will end up fighting them. Eragon, being just as skilled with the sword as Skyward Sword Link if not better, should easily be able to defeat Girahim, especially since this entire time Saphira is breathing flames on Girahim and Eragon is using spells and mental attacks whenever free. In addition, since Teridax has forced Blue-eyes to the ground, he can help destroy Girahim. Pro requested a source for the Statis Field attack; it is listed as a Makuta power here: (http://biosector01.com...). In addition, Teridax can use magnetism to draw away any weapons Girahim conjours, shattering ability to destroy any platform Girahim creates should he jump off. Girahim does have the possiblity of retreating, but again, Makuta can read minds. He is noted at one point in the bionicle series implying that he can read entire minds in mere seconds, so no matter how fast Girahim moves, he cannot avoid Makuta's mind-reading.

Other things to note:
1. As long as Teridax is nearby Girahim cannot create a tornado, as weather control is a Makuta power.
2. Should the fight against Blue-eyes and Girahim be prolonged, Grievous and Link have more than enough to join the battle, at which point Link will drink a guardian potion he has stolen from the other Link, and give another one to Eragon.
3. Girahim requires a snap of his fingers to use a spell, including teleportation (http://zelda.wikia.com...). A statis field that completely immobilizes Girahim prevents him from doing this.
4. Despite having finite defense, Blue-eyes White dragon is described as being "virtually invincible" (http://yugioh.wikia.com...). Should Pro take advantage of this description as far as to claim Blue-eyes capable of surviving impact to the ground from such a height, I claim the White Dragon as a "God-level" character and motion for its disqualification (for my most powerful character, Teridax, I went as far as to remove his claimed invincibility and quick-healing powers).
5. As seen from the source above, Blue-eyes' powers are very vaguely, if at all, described. If my opponent brings up new strategies for this character, I demand that he beforehand explains exactly what the full extents of his power are.
6. Mewtwo's source (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...) describes a wide range of moves used by the Pokemon (none of which make his character completely invincible to blaster fire or have the ability to hover over 100 feet above the ground). However, Pokemon can only learn 4 moves at a time, and my opponent has not clarified which ones his Mewtwo has. It may be that my opponent's Mewtwo refers to the one in the anime, in which case he should have linked that source. However, the article Bulbapedia has on that (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...) does not clarify the full extent of the anime-Mewtwo's powers, only listing ones that are in common with the game.
7. Harry Potter is described several times in the series, notably in the final book in his conversatin with Lupin, as having a general disdain for killing. He instead chooses to disarm or stun his opponents. Though the rules state that he is to be absolutely loyal to his team leader, I bring this up in case Pro tries to make him use the Avada Kedavra curse, which he would be incapable of using.

That is all. Because all of my oppenent's team has been defeated, team CON wins. I wish my opponent good luck in countering my strategy.

Debate Round No. 3
mongeese

Pro

Thank you, Mr_Anon, for your response.

By "drop," I meant that Mewtwo would, after taking care of Grievous, come closer to the tree, hovering about a foot off the ground, then drop off Link and Harry. I had no intention at all of putting them at a significantly higher altitude in the leaves.
My opponent questions Mewtwo's mental concentration, but holding up Link and Harry is insignificant compared to his later feats of levitation ([1], 1:06:44 - 1:07:30), and he was quite capable of both creating a shield and destroying the lab that contained him simultaneously ([1], 3:30 - 4:30). With the shield, Mewtwo would have no need to worry about the blaster fire, and would thus not be distracted by it. If Ocarina Link wishes to fire a Light Arrow, that is fine, but I have already pointed out his aiming problems, and Skyward Link can block the arrow with his Hylian Shield. Grievous is still destroyed before he can get out his blaster anyway, so the predicament is irrelevant. In the unlikely situation that the Light Arrow hits Mewtwo after he destroys Grievous and Skyward Link fails to block it, it wouldn't even kill Mewtwo, just damage him slightly, and Link and Harry would fall, but Link's Sailcloth and Harry's Aresto Momentum would prevent any damage from the fall. Mewtwo would then use Psychic to freeze Link (Nayru's Love only protects against physical attacks) and bring Harry and Link back on top of the tree to finish their intended job.

My opponent claims that Grievous can use his lightsabers to block a Disarming Charm, but if he is focused on blasting Mewtwo's shield, he will not be prepared to counter a spell. If he does counter Expelliarmus, Harry can instead move on to the Blasting Curse, which creates an explosion without firing a beam of light, killing Grievous anyway. If Grievous dodges, he will disrupt his own attack against Mewtwo, easily crushed. If Grievous tried to counter-attack, Protego would block the physical attack and again give Mewtwo all the better of a chance to destroy. In any case, this three-on-two battle will result in both Ocarina Link and Grievous being eliminated with, as a worst-case scenario, Mewtwo sustaining minor damage.

I acknowledge that different canons have some differences, I believe that the similarities allow the magic to interact with each other to at least some reasonable degree.
More precedence: in the LM Classic debate of mongeese vs. Yraelz (#9456), it was decided that Sephiroth's Materia, which reflects magic, would reflect all magic from all canons. It makes the most logical sense.

While it is true that Link may be stunned while under the effects of the Guardian Potion +, being invulnerable but not invincible, but he does not lose consciousness, which only occurs when he loses all of his hearts. My opponent points to Link's limited stamina, but when Link does run out of breath, he quickly regains it in a few seconds, and even then, he only has to tap into his stamina when sprinting or using more advanced sword techniques. This renders all of his plans to defeat Link useless for the approxomately fifteen minutes that his Guardian Potion + will last, leaving Link with enough time to defeat Grievous with bombs and Ocarina Link with advanced swordsmanship, and that's assuming he has to do this fight alone.

My opponent claims that with no air, the Blue-Eyes White Dragon cannot fly, but Ghirahim has summoned a tornado, disrupting Teridax's Vacuums so that Blue-Eyes still has air. If this fails, it will only fall fifty feet onto Skyloft, hardly enough of a distance to do any real damage, and still put up a fight against anything and everything using White Lightning attacks. I before pointed out how Ghirahim would destroy Makuta with a crushing sword blow from the air; my opponent does not explain how Makuta will dodge, so the only counter-attack seems to be to have Eragon try to avenge Makuta. Magnetism will not work, as Makuta has not located Ghirahim, and general magnetism would only accelerate Ghirahim towards Makuta even faster. If the platform is gone, it doesn't matter, as Ghirahim will instead continue to fall to the surface, but his great endurance will ensure that he sustains no major damage. Mind-reading will fail because Ghirahim is moving too fast for Teridax. My opponent points out that it only takes a few seconds, but that doesn't take into account necessary to locate Ghirahim, who has teleported away, which makes it a few seconds too late, because at that point Ghirahim has already slashed through him with his swords, killing him. Ghirahim then teleports back onto Blue-Eyes, who engages Saphira and defeats her and her rider with White Lightning. At this point, Mewtwo, Harry, and Link join in, and Team CON has no chance to survive. My opponent has defined stasis shields, but his page notes that this ability requires eye-contact, and Ghirahim isn't going to give Teridax that.

I will now refute my opponent's "other things":
1. There is nothing to suggest that Teridax's power would trump Ghirahim's, so these abilities would instead conflict; the tornado would clash with the vacuums, interfering with Teridax's plans.
2. Grievous and Link would be dead before this occurs, but even if it did, White Lightning will bring down Saphira's fragile wings, as I've pointed before with no objection, and Eragon, Link, and Grievous would go down in the crash landing. Grievous would be destroyed, Eragon and Link would be subject to attack from the many creatures on the surface at Ghirahim's command, and Saphira would take the brunt of the fall, seriously injured and unable to do anything. After the Guardian Potions wear off, Blue-Eyes would fly down and continue the assault of White Lightning attacks, ensuring victory.
3. This is false, as during my first video, Ghirahim teleports many times without a snap of his fingers (2:42, 3:04 especially). It doesn't matter, as Ghirahim doesn't intend to be locked in a statis field anyway.
4. Blue-Eyes would survive the fall because it's only fifty feet.
5. I've evidenced the full extent of Blue-Eyes' power: flight and White Lightning.
6. I chose the Mewtwo from Mewtwo Strikes Back, as I indicated in Round 2. I sourced the movie, describing Mewtwo's powers of shielding, levitating, and destroying.
7. Very well, Harry would use the Stunning Spell instead, knocking his target unconscious, which is sufficient as per Rule 12.

[1] http://www.watchcartoononline.com...

In conclusion, Team PRO still reigns victorious.
Mr_Anon

Con

I thank my opponent for his response.
It may be best if I address the "other notes" first.
1. My opponent seems to believe that when I refer to Teridax's "weather control" powers, I am talking about the vacuum he creates. However, weather control is literally a Makuta power, if my opponent were to look at my source. If powers were to "conflict" with Ghirahim's tornado, this would mean that neither can manipulate weather, not that Ghirahim's would trump Teridax's.
2. Saphira is equipped with numerous wards placed on her by Eragon and other elves. A single hit may break through some of the wards and slightly damage her, but Eragon can heal.
3. Fair enough.
4. Read my strategy closely. Makuta intercepts Ghirahim and Blue-Eyes as they are lying to Lanayru Desert. This means they are in the Skyloft cloud overworld.
5. Very well, though clarification on "virtual invincibility" would be nice.
6. Haven't seen that movie, but if this is all of his powers, that is sufficient.
7. Sure, though I'm not sure how effective a Stunning Spell would be on Grievous or Teridax.

Now to counter my opponent's strategy.
My opponent appears to believe that Grievous is somehow fragile. Grievous' armor is composed of duraium, a very durable armor that is bullet proof and can virtually withstand his own lightsabers (http://starwars.wikia.com...). If Mewtwo is powerful enough to destroy Grievous that fast, he has the power to destroy all my characters (and my opponent's) nearly instantly. Since he also has teleportation and virtual invincibility, I classify him a God character and motion for his disqualification.

Nevertheless, I will respond to the rest of my opponent's strategy. Even if my opponent is to deny my classification of Mewtwo, he should at least concede that it would take him a couple seconds to kill him. During this time, Grievous' repeated firing of his blaster (as a half-machine, he has good aim, to say the least) and the explosion from Link's Light Arrow (whether or not it hits Mewtwo) should be enough to distract Mewtwo and either drop his allies or his shield. I assume he chooses the former, as they can survive and he won't. Link is now free to fire another Light Arrow which nobody can block and has the ability to pierce through Mewtwo's shield. Even if it doesn't kill Mewtwo, Grievous can repeatedly fire his blaster until the Pokemon is dead, and Link can fire regular arrows to back up the General. Mewtwo may be able to use psychic to freeze one of them, but he can't stop both.

By the time Harry and my opponent's Link get all the way up, Grievous and the Hero of Time will be more than prepared. There are two things to discuss beforehand. First, the Guardian Potion only protects him from bodily harm, which is what causes him to lose hearts. Losing all of his hearts corresponds to death, not unconscious. This is proved by the fact that when Link enters Eldin volcano to seek the Fire Dragon, he gets knocked out and captured immediately after entering. When he wakes up, he still has a small amount of hearts. I assume this event happens whether or not the player is wearing a guardian potion. In addition, Harry Potter is not wearing a potion badge, so his Guardian Potion + only lasts three minutes, rather than 6. Secondly, Harry Potter magic is not compatible with Zelda magic. Harry Potter magic violates law of conservation of momentum, Inheritance magic does not. Inheritance magic follows very strict rules, Harry Potter magic and Zelda magic do not. Zelda magic is given by Gods, Harry Potter and Inheritance magic do not. I do not care whether a previous debate followed different rules, that is irrelevant here.

Harry is pretty easily subdued; all Grievous or Link need to do is separate him from his wand, and he cannot do anything. Grievous can do this by hitting him with a blaster shot, which he can pull off faster than Harry can shoot a blasting spell (which Grievous can dodge anyways). The blow will knock Harry backwards and Grievous can follow up by approaching him and removing his weapon. Should my opponent's Link be separated from his sword and pinned down, Grievous or Link can take away his potion medal. This will happen because the Hero of Time has a more powerful sword, an equivalent shield, magic abilities, a very powerful hammer, and of cause elemental arrows. Since Grievous can defeat Potter rather easily, he can double-team Link with the Hero of Time. After both opponents have been subdued and their potions taken from them, Grievous and my Link tie them up with my opponent's Link's clawshots, and dropped into the pond. Since I estimate less that 1 minute 30 seconds left on their Guardian Potions, they are doomed.

Meanwhile, in Teridax's fight with Ghirahim and Blue-eyes, I have explained why Ghirahim needs more than a tornado to disrupt Teridax's vacuum. As for locating him after teleporting, Ghirahim makes a noise after he re-appears, and Teridax can block his attacks using his very sharp claws. Remember also that Teridax is following Blue-Eyes to the surface, and as a result he is traveling at a high speed downwards. Ghirahim will have a tough time intercepting him. Since they are above Lanayru province, Eragon will be able to join them quite soon and face Ghirahim with Saphira. He can utter a spell that can tell him where Ghirahim is. When facing Ghirahim, his own sword Brisingr should be more than capable of matching Ghirahim's sword, and since Ghirahim has little mobility through the air other than teleporting and creating platforms (which won't really help that much since it doesn't terminate his velocity).

My opponent's team has been defeated and the argument has pretty much boiled down to two things: whether Grievous and Link break Mewtwo's concentration, and whether Teridax can fend off Ghirahim while destroying Blue-eyes. My opponent has conceded that should a light arrow strike Mewtwo, it will break through his shield and cause him to drop his fellow team members. He has also conceded that Teridax is able to pretty much immobilize Blue-eyes and force him to plummet to the ground if he pursues correctly.

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
mongeese

Pro

Thank you, Mr_Anon, for your final response.


Regarding the "other notes":
1. According to his wiki, Teridax's weather control allows him to create powerful storms. It doesn't allow him to cancel storms already created. Even if it did, it would be ridiculous for Teridax to be using three powers at once. My opponent hasn't even given evidence that he can use two simultaneously.
2. Looking at the wiki, it seems that wards only block scrying and magic. Blue-Eyes uses neither, and my opponent seems to believe that magic can't interact, which means it would be useless anyway. Additionally, according to the wiki, Eragon would create wards "before every major battle" [1], suggesting that they wear off over time and must be recreated before this battle as well. However, it seems Eragon forgot this time as my opponent never mentioned this, so Saphira is terribly vulnerable. As for healing, Eragon's words only heal the surface [2], so the inside of Saphira's wings would still be damaged beyond repair.
4. My opponents strategy clearly called for Teridax to teleport directly to Skyloft, the island, not just the sky in general, so he would attack while the Blue-Eyes White Dragon is still above the island as well. I should note that my opponent relied completely on Gravity to kill Blue-Eyes, so becasue Blue-Eyes doesn't die to this, he cannot die by Rule 13, and Team PRO automatically wins.
7. Harry would use the Blasting Curse against them, as I've pointed out before. They aren't exactly human, no more human than Voldemort, so he wouldn't feel the same moral weight in killing them as he would a human.

Back to the essentials, my opponent finally cares to point out how Grievous is supposed to be very durable. I should point out that his vital organs are still very vulnerable to destruction, so he'll die while his armor remains. The blaster and lightsabers, additionally, are not made of the same sturdy material, and would still be destroyed, so Grievous would be defenseless against Harry's Blasting Curse, which would destroy him regardless of his durability.

My opponent motions for Mewtwo's disqualification, again rather late in the debate, but he's mistaken on multiple accounts. Mewtwo only makes mechanical parts explode, as can be seen in his movie's opening as I cited; the scientists survived. Therefore, Mewtwo can't (or won't) destroy Link, Eragon, or Saphira in this way. Additionally, Mewtwo cannot teleport, although he can fly around very quickly. In conclusion, my opponent's objections are faulty, and Mewtwo remains in the debate.

While it may take a second or two to destroy Grievous, Mewtwo's surprise advantage means that Grievous lacks the time to respond in time. Grievous must recognize that he is in danger, then get out his blaster, then aim, then fire. Mewtwo's shield absorbs the blasts until the blaster, then Grievous, are destroyed.

My opponent claims that Link's Light Arrow will create a distracting explosion, but the Hylian Shield will absorb the blow, and to call it an "explosion" is a gross exaggeration. It would also be odd to assume that something hitting Mewtwo's shield would distract him, as it would merely be serving its purpose. Everything goes as I have already said it has; Mewtwo defeats (or perhaps disarms) Grievous, then freezes Link, and Harry and Skyward Link finish the job whether they were dropped or not.

Regarding the Guardian Potion +, what my opponent points out is an example of Gameplay and Story Segregation [3]. Link lost hearts in that debacle, which means the game ignored the potion in favor of the plot, but there is no plot to stop Link now. It is true that the potion will only protect Link and Harry for a number of minutes, but it's enough time for either of them to defeat Grievous (bombs, Blasting Curse) even if Mewtwo takes a time-out.

To subdue Harry, my opponent says that Grievous or Link must remove his wand, but this is easier said than done; Harry isn't going to be dropping his wand anytime soon. A blaster shot (assuming the blaster even still exists), as I've said before, is deflected by one of the quickest spells available, Protego, and Grievous has no room on top of the tree to avoid a Blasting Curse.

I've already discussed how Skyward Link will avoid ever taking any damage from Ocarina Link in a 1-on-1 fight rounds ago, but my opponent finally tries to dispute this, so I'll disprove his points in order. To say OoT has a more powerful sword is nonsense; it's the exact same Master Sword, unless he forgoes his shield for the two-handed Biggoron Sword, in which case he'll be wiped out by a series of sword swings he can't stop. While both Links have shields, only Skyward knows the Shield Bash, which is so useful in a fight it is regarded as a game-breaker [4]. His magical abilities include Din's Fire (countered by the Fireshield Earrings), Nayru's Love (which can't outstall five Guardian Potions), and Farore's Courage, which doesn't have any application in a fight at all. The Megaton Hammer is slow to use, and therefore easily dodged; Skyward would then stab OoT repeatedly. The elemental arrows are all blocked by the Hylian Shield with no problem, and would be impossible to aim anyway in close combat; Link has too much agility.

Notably, my opponent has no strategy for Link to defeat Harry or for Grievous to defeat Link, although I have counter-strategies for all combinations of characters.

To conclude that point, Link, Harry, and Mewtwo all survive easily despite any combination of setbacks, and because my opponent has no back-up plan for Teridax, Eragon, or Saphira to take any of the three while I've explained how they can take out the rest of Team CON (see my penultimate paragraph of Round 2, as a blinded Saphira will have no way of accurately attacking and no defense against pretty much anything), Team PRO wins by Rule 13. Even if OoT Link and Grievous survive, I've pointed out how Blue-Eyes will pursue the remains of Team CON after Saphira goes down in Round 4, and my opponent gave no strategy to stop this, dooming his team.

Back to the sky, I've pointed out how my opponent's interpretation of his own character's powers is inconsistent with his own wiki, so Blue-Eyes survives because he is both on an island in the sky and he can be saved by a tornado.

When Ghirahim teleports, he makes a sound at his initial location, but not where he teleports, and there's no indication that Teridax has keen enough hearing to notice such a thing even if he did. There's also the fact that I find no mention in the wiki of a Makuta's claws having any use in combat; I doubt they're strong enough to withstand Ghirahim's full blow. It is also impossible to dodge by travelling downwards, becasue Ghirahim is also going straight downwards. Note that his quick-dodging ability is "significantly weaker" than canon, so he won't be able to avoid the impact. Teridax will shatter, and Ghirahim will give an evil chuckle.

My opponent intends for a one-on-one fight between Ghirahim and Eragon, but that's not on the Demon Lord's agenda, so he'll smugly teleport back onto the Blue-Eyes White Dragon, who proceeds to blast Saphira, followed by whatever remains of Team CON, into oblivion.

In conclusion, Team PRO is prepared for numerous situations while Team CON will need both incredible amounts of luck and the forgoing of some crucial facts to win.

1. http://inheritance.wikia.com...;
2. http://inheritance.wikia.com...;
3. http://tvtropes.org...;
4. http://tvtropes.org...

I would like to remind everyone of Rule 14 for when you vote:
"14. The winning team automatically receives Arguments and Sources. Conduct, in addition to regular things, goes to the person who follows the rules most effectively. Please remember this rule."

Thank you, Mr_Anon, for this Ultimate Team War. It was fun. I look forward to battling you in the near future.
Mr_Anon

Con

I thank my opponent for following my request to post on Friday, and I also thank him for posting his conclusion.
Before I star, I will address the "other notes".

1. For evidence that he can use multiple powers at once, I point to the Bionicle novel Prisoners of the Pit, where Teridax uses three offensive powers simultaneously. Now that it is established that he can hold his vacuum and increased gravity at the same time as his weather control, he can simply counter any storms Ghirahim creates with storms of his own, which would cancel out. In any case, Makuta is flying down along with Blue-Eyes at very high speeds, so it will be extremely difficult for Ghirahim to intercept them.
2. Wards are well known in the Eragon series as blocking effects as well as spells. This is clearly seen in the novel Inheritance, where a character, after having a crushing death trap sprung on her, is "held motionless" for a few seconds before the trap breaks through her wards and threaten to kill her. The said character also states after the incident that the breaking of the wards was the first time she was without wards in centuries, indicating that they potentially last indefinitely. My opponent also takes the wiki statement out of context; Eragon has to refresh his wards because they are often weakened or broken through in prior battles. As I stated, Eragon is in his state that he was in right before entering the Vault of Souls, at which point he had placed numerous wards on himself and his dragon.
4. My actual statement was "Teridax teleports to Skyloft and intercepts Blue-eyes and Ghirahim. Using his Gravity and Vacuum powers, he forces Blue-eyes to crash into the ground." I clearly stated "intercepts", which indicates moving in front of their path. By "Skyloft", I meant in the vicinity of the island. This is clear as I stated "crash into the ground", which refers to the planet's surface, not the land in the island, which is never referred to as "ground" in the game. In addition, gravity was not my only method of killing Blue-Eyes, as I stated "If this air is deprived, it cannot fly (in addition, it requires air to breath in the first place)." in round three, and this was never addressed.
7. Fair enough.

Now for strategy.

My opponent claims that Mewtwo can psychically crush Grievous' vital organs. There are two problems with this. First, my opponent identified Mewtwo's powers as "shielding, levitating, and destroying" upon request for clarification. In this round, he has claimed that the "destroying" part only refers to mechanical objects, but Grievous' vital organs are not mechanical. Secondly, my opponent claimed Mewtwo's action as "Mewtwo uses his psychic powers to crush Grievous' robotic body as if he were a bug". Unfortunately, rule 13 states that you cannot alter this argument in this round to referring specifically to Grievous' vital organs. This also applies to my opponent's claim about destroying lightsabers and the blaster, a strategy only introduced here. Thus, there are two options here: Mewtwo is capable of crushing Grievous' biological parts, in which case he is a god character since he can do this to anybody, or Mewtwo is only capable of crushing mechanical parts, an ability that I have shown to take some time to carry out on Grievous' incredibly powerful armor. In addition, my opponent clams that Mewtwo has the power to freeze my Link, a power he did not specify when I asked him to clarify the full extent of Mewtwo's abilities.

Grievous, having heightened reflexes, has more than enough time to begin firing his blaster. As for the light arrow's distracting purposes, Mewtwo requires a large amount of mental concentration to use all three of his powers at once. A sudden blast of light at close range should easily do the job of making him lose concentration of one of those powers, in which case Mewtwo either dies or loses Link's Hylian shield defense, in which case he dies shortly after.

Now for combat with Harry and Link when they get back up. My opponent brings up the Protego spell, which unfortunately was brought up in round 4, a bit too late. As for the potion, the rules state that the characters follow their own canon, and it is canon that Link gets knocked out no matter what as he lands in Eldin Volcano. There is no evidence that it protects him from anything other than bodily harm. My opponent points out that Link loses hearts in the Eldin Volcano incident, but for all we know, Link could have suffered that damage after his potion ran out. What is known is that Link would have been knocked out whether or not he was experiencing the effects of the Guardian potion or not.

While the Hero of Time will quite undeniably lose in the long run against my opponent's Link, my points were that he could hold his ground until Grievous defeats Harry Potter and double teams on my opponent's Link, in which case my opponent's Link will inevitably lose.

As for the battle in the sky, my opponent claims Ghirahim will be "going straight downwards" despite no explanation. Ghirahim can't fly, he can only telepor and create platforms, which are not sufficient to stop Teridax. As for Teridax's claws, Teridax's weapons and armor are made out of Protosteel, a virtually indestructable material (http://bionicle.wikia.com... Note that Biosector has recently experienced a crash in database, so I have to resort to this wiki).

In conclusion, I have shown that a light arrow from the Hero of Time will almost certainly be able to break Mewtwo's concentration before Grievous is destroyed. Note thain this circumstance, my opponent twice made it unclear what "50 feet away from Grievous and Link" meant, and as a result my strategies were unable to be clarified until round 4. From here, my opponent has outlined his strategies for direct combat at the top of the tree a bit too late, even though I made my strategies clear in rounds 2 and 3. It is then clear that the battle at the Great Tree will be one for Team Con.

Throughout this debate, my opponent has ignored consideration of the source I listed for Makuta Teridax's full range of powers, and has made impossible claims for how Ghirahim and Blue-Eyes will counter. Outside of these impossible claims, my opponent has been unable to come up with a method of countering Teridax's unescapable strategy for killing the dragon.

In short, vote for Team CON.
Debate Round No. 5
21 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Mr_Anon 4 years ago
Mr_Anon
gg. This was a fun debate.
Posted by Maikuru 4 years ago
Maikuru
Interesting debate with a lot of unique characters. Good job, guys!
Posted by Mr_Anon 4 years ago
Mr_Anon
Nobody has voted?
Posted by mongeese 4 years ago
mongeese
A war on Pandora would be fun. I've won there before, and I'll enjoy a second one more now that I've seen the movie.

I'll post my argument sometime Friday if you want.
Posted by Mr_Anon 4 years ago
Mr_Anon
Can you please not post your argument until Thursday? I'm very busy this week, so its best I work on this during the weekend.
Posted by Mr_Anon 4 years ago
Mr_Anon
You'll probably win, since I guess I focused more on having a really cool team than a properly suited one.

Sometime we should have another one of these on Pandora, where I will be better prepared.
Posted by mongeese 4 years ago
mongeese
Sure, let's have the bazaar closed. I don't mind.
Posted by Mr_Anon 4 years ago
Mr_Anon
I actually disagree. I see shops as being a part of their NPCs, and therefore should not be accessable.
Posted by mongeese 4 years ago
mongeese
I guess they would be accessible.
Posted by Mr_Anon 4 years ago
Mr_Anon
Just a note are the potions in the Potion Shop accessable? Or are they gone with the NPCs? Same thing with other shops.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Maikuru 4 years ago
Maikuru
mongeeseMr_AnonTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's flaw was in the match-ups. Grevious could likely deflect Harry's magic but not while simultaneously attacking the faster and more powerful Mewtwo. Pro's Link was also a stronger incarnation than Con's, meaning Con would quickly be down two characters. While Blue Eyes and the Dark Lord would probably be struggling in their fights, they'd quickly be joined by the remainder of team Pro. Con has no chance at this point. Had his characters worked more as a team, his odds would have improved.