The Instigator
patsox834
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Logical-Master
Con (against)
Winning
28 Points

Ultimate Team War: Super Smash Bros Edition.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Logical-Master
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/11/2009 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,335 times Debate No: 8598
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (9)
Votes (4)

 

patsox834

Pro

The description, rules, etc (as taken from Mongeese's Ultimate Team War debate...and modified a little to fit within the parameters of *this* debate):

This is the Ultimate World Domination Team War. Each debater must assemble a team of five people, and the teams will then fight to the death. Since we cannot have an actual real-life battle, each debater will explain why their team is superior during this debate. This was inspired by MTGandP, and his debate here: http://www.debate.org......

DEFINITIONS
Team leader: One of the debaters here, i.e. me and whoever accepts the debate.
Team member: One of the five chosen warriors.

RULES
1. Battles take place on an earthlike planet; there is a human population, but humans will not interfere with the war unless forced to become involved.

2. No team member may have unlimited abilities in one or more particular areas.

3. Every team member must be a selectable, player usable character from any of the Super Smash Brothers video game series.

4. Every team member's abilities must be in accordance to their abilities in Super Smash Brothers.

5. Every character has only the equipment that they have the Super Smash Brothers Series.

6. Team members are absolutely loyal to the team leader, unless subjected to some form of mind control by the opposing team.

7. The team leader may not directly participate in the competition, but may only facilitate. The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team.

8. Neither team can have a member in common. If one team leader chooses a team member, the other team cannot have that person.

(PRO unveils only three team members in round one for two reasons. The first is so that PRO does not get first dibs on choosing all five team members. The second is so that CON cannot gain an advantage by choosing team members that directly counter PRO's team.)

Round 1: Rule specifications; PRO unveils first three team members, CON unveils all five team members.

Round 2: PRO unveils his final two team members and explains why his team is better. CON also begins his/her arguments.

Round 3, 4, 5: Arguments and rebuttals. Con may not present any new arguments during round 5, since Pro has no chance to rebut them.

My first three team members: Mewtwo, Sonic, and Ness. Considering they have the abilities used in the game series, I don't really think I need to go into detail describing what they can do.

I look forward to this debate...my opponent is a very formidable one.
Logical-Master

Con

Greetings and many thanks to my opponent for starting this debate.

For this challenge, I shall call upon the following:

Meta Knight: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com...(SSBB)

Snake: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com...(SSBB)

Wario: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com...(SSBB)

Falco: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com...(SSBB)

Marth: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com...(SSBM)

Explanations for each of these characters can be found on the page which I am citing.

Like my opponent, I look forward to the debate. :D
Debate Round No. 1
patsox834

Pro

Thanks to Logical-Master for accepting.

Alright, then. My last two members: Fox McCloud and Samus.

Now, on to the strategy aspect of the debate...

My team features two members who possess psychic powers: Ness and Mewtwo. I also have Fox McCloud, who's capable of deflecting non-physical attacks, such as Falco's laser, Mario's fireballs, and Ness' fire attack. I also have Samus, who is capable of charging up and releasing a powerful blast from her cannon.

Mewtwo and Ness can both use their abilities to render one member of my opponent's team useless each -- Ness by using his ability to set anyone he wants on fire (it's an attack that can be used repeatedly), and Mewtwo by using one of his attacks which flips the opponent around in the air.

I'd chose to use Mewtwo's ability on Falco, which renders his ability to send energy blasts back useless, and I'd use Ness' fire ability on Snake, which thus eliminates my opponent's long range attacks (for the most part, that is.)

While all this is happening, Samus' cannon would be charged, and Sonic would be using his speed to his advantage, while going up against the much slower Wario. Fox would be using his rapid fire blaster on Meta Knight, who is arguably my opponent's strongest member.

Samus would use the cannon on Marth, who isn't that agile, and is more susceptible to long range attacks.

Considering all this, my opponent's team would be severely weak, but not defeated as of yet. After Ness and Mewtwo have done a high amount of damage to Snake and Falco, they would then just regularly attack, which, considering the damage done, would eliminate them from the battle.

So now it's five on three.

Meta Knight would be damaged due to Fox, and Marth would be very hurt at the hands of Samus, which makes them easier to get rid of. Meta Knight would then face a flurry of fire attacks from Ness, which would weaken him further, and would finally be hit with a smash attack from Fox, which would undoubtedly do him in.

Five on two.

Marth would be taken care of by Mewtwo's long rang attack. And while that was happening, Samus would again charge her cannon, and then hit Marth with it when he has high damage, and is defenseless.

Five on one.

Wario was occupied with Sonic, who was using his speed to make it so that Wario couldn't hit him; however, now it's five against one. Fox would use his laser, and Ness would use his fire. Mewtwo and Samus would charge their individual blast attacks, and then use them on Wario, who wouldn't be in a position to defend himself.

And yeah, that would do team pro in for good.
Logical-Master

Con

NOTE: For this debate, I shall be using this handy feature created by somejohn, hence the use of the markup I've placed in the debate: http://www.debate.org...

1) [b][color=red]Each of my characters are ranked high on the official Tier lists[/color][/b]

First, I'd like to explain the very reason I chose the characters on my list. What my opponent doesn't seem to allude to in his previous round is that each of the characters whom I've shown have been empirically described as being the best characters in their games. This is based on statistics and is the general consensus of the competitive players.

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com...

Now I anticipate that my opponent will try to argue against my citation of the tier list, but such arguments will ultimately be futile (which you will see for yourself in the next round should he choose to argue, especially given the nature of this debate).

For Super Smash Bros. brawl:

1. Meta Knight: 1/37 (S class tier):SSBB
2. Snake: 2/37 (S class tier): SSBB
3. Wario: 3/37 (S class tier): SSBB
4. Falco: 4/37 (S class tier): SSBB
5 Marth: 2/26 (Top Tier): SSBM

Now I specifically chose characters from specific games as you can see in my previous round. Though to give my opponent the benefit of the doubt, I shall automatically take into consideration where his characters are ranked the highest on SSBM or SSBB (I won't include the original smash brothers since the characters in that game are far too limited in terms of potential speed and techniques). If my opponent wants to use the first game, I won't mind as it will only be hurting his arguments).

Anyways . . .

Mewtwo: 24/26 (bottom tier)(SSBM)
Sonic: 23/37 (C tier) (SSBB)
Ness: 21/26 (Bottom tier) (SSBM)
Fox: 1/26 (Top tier) (SSBM)
Samus: 9/26 (Middle tier) (SSBM)

Now as you can see, my opponent has only has one awesome character on his team and that his fox. The rest (excluding Samus, who is decent at best) are garbage and statistically no match for my characters.

2) [b][color=blue] RE: Mewtwo and Ness can use their abilities to render one member of CON's team useless [/color][/b]

What my opponent neglects to mention is that these attacks rely heavily on close range and are rather easy to get around (there is a reason these characters are ranked so low).

In fact, here is one of the things stated on Ness' page about the move my opponent claims will be effective: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com...(SSBM)
-"The special moves are overall slow coming out and have various amounts of cool down time with them, and adding to that it makes each one have a very limited use that makes them all situational."

As for Mewtwo's attack, although it isn't quite crappy like Ness', the fact of the matter is that it takes time to charge and is easy to anticipate. It would be easy to attack mewtwo while he charged his attack. And considering Mewtwo's horrific light weight, he cannot afford for this to happen or else he'll get KO'd quite easily. Against a speedy foe like Falco, this tactic would easily be ineffective. And I'm not sure what my opponent means by rendering his "energy blast back" useless. Last I recall, Mewtwo has no techniques which can do this. Falco can quite easily spam his laser attacks from a safe distance if he wanted to.

As for Ness using his fire ability on Snake, this is unlikely to succeed as we already know about the weaknesses to Ness' attacks.

[b] 3) While all this is happening, Samus' cannon would be charged, and Sonic would be using his speed to his advantage, while going up against the much slower Wario. [/b]

Wario may be a heavy character, but his movements are said to be the most unpredictable out of all the characters in the game (as can be seen in my wario link). Not to mention that there is virtually nothing to stop all of my characters from fighting together. For instance, while Sonic was fighting Wario, another character (i.e. Marth) could go pwn Samus by preventing her from being able to charge up her energy beam. Heck, Marth could use counter and Falco could reflect the blast

[b][color=green] 4)Fox would be using his rapid fire blaster on Meta Knight, who is arguably my opponent's strongest member. [/color][/b]

Not just arguably. Statistics support him as being the best. Mere lazer blast wouldn't keep him down. Meta Knight could easily dodge while making use of his impressive aerial abilities.

[b][color=orange] 5) Samus would use the cannon on Marth, who isn't that agile, and is more susceptible to long range attacks.[/color][/b]

I was under the impression that Samus would use her canon on Wario? Nevertheless, use of "counter" would make this attack useless. Not to mention a well timed use of the shield button would also make her attack useless.

[b][color=purple] RE: "Meta Knight would be damaged due to Fox" [/color][/b]

Again, really doubtful. Take a look at the vid to the right and notice how (both of these being PRO players) the fight didn't go as my opponent insisted. What I'm saying is that Fox couldn't simply win by firing lazer blast. In fact, most players know that merely doing that WILL get you killed by any non-noob player.

[b][color=pink] RE: Meta Knight would then face a flurry of fire attacks from Ness, which would weaken him further, and would finally be hit with a smash attack from Fox, which would undoubtedly do him in. [/color][/b]

Again, a controlled situation by my opponent which makes no sense. Why is it that Meta Knight has to be alone? Why wouldn't one of my teammembers be able to help him out? Seems to me that this is precisely how it would play out.

[b][color=yellow] RE: Marth would be taken care of by Mewtwo's long rang attack [/color][/b]

See what I've already said regarding Mewtwo. In addition, not only is Marth faster than Mewtwo, but that the tip of his sword does the most damage. In other words, Marth doesn't even have to be that close to Mewtwo (and become susceptible to his grabs or confusion attack) to fight him.

And yeah, I'm gonna stop there since I realize the futility of it all. Someone in the comment section said it best: In this round, I could simply do as my opponent has done and create a situation that works precisely under my control (such as my opponents characters not working together and standing stationary while my whole team picks them apart one by one), but this is ultimately meaningless.

[b]MY CASE[/b]

Thus, I shall provide the following as my argument: Since each of my characters are statistically better than my opponents characters (well, save Fox (melee) > Marth (melee) though if you'll look at the page, you'll see that they are numerically very close), each of my characters could quite simply mow down my opponent's team members while marth and fox battled it out (characters trying to work together against one character (such as Mewtwo and Ness focusing on Falco) would be disadvantageous as my team could easily do the same and thus even the odds). When my opponent's team (minus fox) is wiped out, the rest could help marth finish fox off. Though if Fox beats Marth, he still won't stand a chance against the four remaining members.
Debate Round No. 2
patsox834

Pro

patsox834 forfeited this round.
Logical-Master

Con

Kentucky Fried Forfeits are no fun. :(
Debate Round No. 3
patsox834

Pro

<"This is based on statistics and is the general consensus of the competitive players.">

This is easily rebutted -- ad populum. Simple as that. Appealing to the consensus is fallacious in nature.

Secondly, I also think this is an appeal to authority. So what if competitive players find a certain character more useful? I would think that's a matter which is subjective; certain people might perform better with certain characters because of an attachment, or maybe they find them easier to control, etc, etc.

<"In fact, here is one of the things stated on Ness' page about the move my opponent claims will be effective: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com......(SSBM)
-"The special moves are overall slow coming out and have various amounts of cool down time with them, and adding to that it makes each one have a very limited use that makes them all situational."">

Yeah, they are slow, hence one reason why I used them on Snake, who isn't exactly Mr. Mobility. The "cool down time" which Ness will receive in between setting Snake on fire would be more than sufficient, as well.

<"It would be easy to attack mewtwo while he charged his attack.">

Straw man -- I wasn't talking about Mewtwo's shadow ball technique, which is the only move he possesses which requires "charging." The attack which I was referring to was Mewtwo's "confusion," which whirls the opponent in the air, and makes them tumble on the ground for a short period of time.

<"And I'm not sure what my opponent means by rendering his "energy blast back" useless.">

Falco's intrinsic shield which can send blasts of energy back at the individual who fired them is countered by Mewtwo's confusion.

<"Wario may be a heavy character, but his movements are said to be the most unpredictable out of all the characters in the game ">

Unpredictable =/= quick, nor fast.

<"Not to mention that there is virtually nothing to stop all of my characters from fighting together.">

...I would think that having certain individuals attacked would kinda make it hard to fight as a team.

<"What I'm saying is that Fox couldn't simply win by firing lazer blast. ">

I didn't claim Fox would win "simply by firing his laser blast" -- my point was that many quick blasts would do damage.

<"Why is it that Meta Knight has to be alone? Why wouldn't one of my teammembers be able to help him out?">

They'd all be engaged.

As for the rest...meh. I addressed the point about the statistics and whatnot.
Logical-Master

Con

PRO: [b]This is easily rebutted -- ad populum. Simple as that. Appealing to the consensus is fallacious in nature.[/b]

Me: Ad populam is merely the instance of insisting that something is automatically correct JUST because some majority (no matter what majority this is) says that it's correct. In fact, to get a better understanding of what ad populam is, I insist that you (the audience) take the time to observe this web page: http://www.nizkor.org...

"A person falls prey to this fallacy if he accepts a claim as being true simply because most other people approve of the claim."

Basically, what I'm suggesting is that competitive/professional players have fiddled around with all the characters and are shown to win more matches when using certain characters rather than others. In other words, this isn't a subjective matter (as what is implied by ad populam), but rather an objective one.

PRO:[b]Secondly, I also think this is an appeal to authority. So what if competitive players find a certain character more useful? I would think that's a matter which is subjective; certain people might perform better with certain characters because of an attachment, or maybe they find them easier to control, etc, etc.[/b]

ME: An appeal to authority is an instance where someone is merely making a claim based on the word of just about anyone perceived as an authority. For instance, lets say that you're highschool English teacher tells you that quantum mechanics can be linked directly to determinism Now if you were to go home, get on debate.org, start a debate with somebody and tell them that there's reasoon to believe that quantum mechanics can be directly linked to determinism as you're English teacher told you this, this would be an instance of appeal to authority.

For more information on this fallacy, one can observe this webpage:http://www.nizkor.org...

As for the rest of that comment, the fact that each character is ranked in accordance to the amount of exploitable flaws (all which can be listed on each character's page) it has would suggest that competitive players (for the most part) are living up to the word competitive and aren't merely using characters for the sake of attachment. There is a reason more popular characters such as Link or Mario are ranked so low. In other words, PRO's objection holds no water. As for certain characters being easier to control than others, this seems like the kind of advantage which would allow said character to win more matches, hence an illustration of superiority.

PRO: [b]Yeah, they are slow, hence one reason why I used them on Snake, who isn't exactly Mr. Mobility. The "cool down time" which Ness will receive in between setting Snake on fire would be more than sufficient, as well.[/b]

Mr Mobility? Lets see how a Snake user and Falco user (who is "Mr Mobility" and is WAY higher ranked than Ness) fair in a tournament match between pro players on the vid to the right.

As dictated on the page, his poor mobility lies in his fall speed. However, in close quarters combat (CQC for those who play Metal Gear Solid), he is more than capable of thrashing the quickest of foes. There is a reason he is ranked as the second best character in the game.. Not to mention the fact that besides the cool down time in ness's attack, it is plain easy to avoid (not to mention counter, consider Snake can fight at long range).

PRO: [b]Straw man -- I wasn't talking about Mewtwo's shadow ball technique, which is the only move he possesses which requires "charging." The attack which I was referring to was Mewtwo's "confusion," which whirls the opponent in the air, and makes them tumble on the ground for a short period of time.[/b]

Even so, confusion only works if a character is right next to Mewtwo. Snake could easily shoot guided missles or just dodge roll the second Mewtwo uses this attack, only to get behind him and use one of his smash attacks (which are ranked pretty highly in terms of the amount of damage they give). Given that Mewtwo is a lightweight character, this wouldn't end well.

PRO: [b]Falco's intrinsic shield which can send blasts of energy back at the individual who fired them is countered by Mewtwo's confusion.[/b]

Ah, I see. Doesn't matter though. Falco can just as easily swap to hand to hand combat and rip Mewtwo a new one. Heck, like Snake, he could rely on the small instance of lag in the confusion attack, get behind Mewtwo and chain grab the crap out of the lame @$$ overrated pokemon.

PRO: [b]Unpredictable =/= quick, nor fast.[/b]

No, unpredictability >>> quick and fast. If your opponent cannot anticipate your movements, his/her speed is useless. No matter how fast you are, landing blows requires that you have an understanding of your adversaries position.

PRO: [b]...I would think that having certain individuals attacked would kinda make it hard to fight as a team.[/b]

Lets think of it like this. Both teams appear on the battlefield in their own sections. Now, from this point, what stops my team from working together? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The only way my opponent's situation can even come into play is if all my characters just happen to begin the battle in the designated positions of the battlefield which my opponent is implying (i.e. Snake starts the battle with Ness and and Mewtwo about to gun him down, without anyone else on my team being around to help him out). However, there is nothing in the parameters to suggest that my opponent's team begins the battle with such a field advantage, hence no reason to take this battle setup into consideration.

PRO: [b]I didn't claim Fox would win "simply by firing his laser blast" -- my point was that many quick blasts would do damage.[/b]

I understand that. My point (however) is that it's not that simple. Simply firing many quick blast in hopes of dealing lots of damage is a nooby strategy. In other words, it's easy to get around and not likely to succeed in general.

PRO:[b] They'd all be engaged.[/b]

See my point regarding how this battle is set up. Also keep in mind that my characters have been empirically shown as being better.

And that'll do it for now.
Debate Round No. 4
patsox834

Pro

Honestly, not only is it too close to the deadline to post anything decent -- but there's not really anything I can say win this, especially considering my early forfeit.

So yeah, vote for Logical-Master; I clearly messed this one up.

To Logical-Master: One day, I'll challenge you again, and I'll avenge this loss, haha.
Logical-Master

Con

I look forward to that day.

Till then though . . .

I thank my opponent for debating and thank the audience for reading. As (and yes, I DO like the word "as" alot :D) insisted by my opponent himself, vote CON. :D
Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
Whoa, sorry Logical-Master. I'll be sure to reply to your arguments in this round.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
And now, Logical-Master will propose an entirely different ending with different matchups, in which his characters can actually do something, and patsox834's cannot.

The winner of SSB is determined by the player, not the characters.
Posted by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
Hahaha, I had a minute and 30 seconds left to post an argument when I submitted this; I didn't even have time to proof read. Hopefully my points were clear to everyone, though...if anyone (especially Logical-Master) needs a little clarification, just ask; elaborating won't be a problem.
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
Maikuru
Interesting twist on the Ultimate War idea. As a smash fan, I am intrigued.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
I'm hoping someone will be willing to do a Gundam or mech edition of this with me some day. :D
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
No, your current rules are just fine. I'll argue under them. :)
Posted by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
...scratch the resending part; I just just edit the rules of the current debate.
Posted by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
<"In other words, lets take MewTwo for example. Could he use his abilities to level we see in the Pokemon anime or are we only limited to the level of his powers shown in the game?">

The level of power in the game.

...though if you'd like, I can cancel this debate, and amend the rules to make it so that we can use abilities and equipment from a single"canon" of our choice, and then resend it. I'm fine with the rules either way.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Just to be clear, what do you mean by abilties used in the games? In other words, lets take MewTwo for example. Could he use his abilities to level we see in the Pokemon anime or are we only limited to the level of his powers shown in the game?
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Vote Placed by studentathletechristian8 7 years ago
studentathletechristian8
patsox834Logical-MasterTied
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mongoose
patsox834Logical-MasterTied
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Vote Placed by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
patsox834Logical-MasterTied
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Vote Placed by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
patsox834Logical-MasterTied
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