The Instigator
MTGandP
Pro (for)
Losing
24 Points
The Contender
JBlake
Con (against)
Winning
41 Points

Ultimate Team War

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/28/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,323 times Debate No: 8456
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (45)
Votes (12)

 

MTGandP

Pro

This is the Ultimate World Domination Team Battle. Each debater must assemble a team of five people, and the teams will then have a battle. Since we cannot have an actual real-life battle, each debater will explain why their team is superior during this debate.

DEFINITIONS
Team leader: One of the debaters here, i.e. me and whoever accepts the debate.
Team member: One of the five chosen warriors.

RULES
1. Battles take place in a neutral location in the real world. The environment may not favor any team member. Note: Because this neutral location exists in the real world, someone like Neo who relies on The Matrix for his powers will not have his powers.

2. No team member may have unlimited abilities in one or more particular areas.
3. Every team member must be either real or, if fictional, verifiably existent. No characters may be made up for the purpose of this debate.
4. In the case of a fictional character, the team member's abilities must be according to a specific canon as chosen by the team leader.
5. Every character has only the equipment that they generally have in the specified canon. For instance, Master Chief has a full set of armor, a pistol and an assault rifle.
6. Team members are absolutely loyal to the team leader, unless subjected to some form of mind control by the opposing team. For example, though Superman and Lex Luthor are enemies, they could still be on the same team.

7. The team leader may not directly participate in the competition, but may only facilitate. The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team.
8. Neither team can have a member in common. If one team leader chooses a team member, the other team cannot have that person.
9. No one may choose Chuck Norris, on the grounds that a) his powers are somewhat vague and b) he is excessively overpowered.

(PRO unveils only three team members in round one for two reasons. The first is so that PRO does not get first dibs on choosing all five team members. The second is so that CON cannot gain an advantage by choosing team members that directly counter PRO's team. A 3/5/2 revelation order is as balanced as possible in my opinion.)

Round 1: Rule specifications; PRO unveils first three team members, CON unveils all five team members.

Round 2: PRO unveils his final two team members and explains why his team is better. CON also begins her arguments.

Round 3, 4, 5: Arguments and rebuttals.

========
Opening
========

Team Member 1: Borg Collective
The Borg are capable of assimilating almost anyone into their collective, the exception being someone with superhuman willpower. Borg cannot assimilate each other. Borg are also very quick to adapt. Whenever they are given some sort of input, they can adapt to it extremely quickly. For example, in one episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the following events transpired: A Borg beamed on to the Enterprise and was shot with a phaser. Another Borg beamed on, and when the crew tried to shoot it, it was immune to phaser blasts. Borg are capable of becoming immune to an attack after they have seen it only one time; presumably, if they get their hands on a weapon, they can adapt to it and become immune without ever having to be hit by it.

Due to a loophole in the rules (that I wrote =P), The Borg count as a single team member since each Borg in one collective is a single entity. Any knowledge is shared between all of them. "The Borg" means a single Borg collective, along with a Borg ship ("cube").

========
Team Member 2: Invisible Woman
(as seen in the Fantastic Four movie)

Invisible Woman's forcefields are strong enough to contain a supernova, as seen at the end of the Fantastic Four movie. This is the equivalent of roughly 10^30 hydrogen bombs, +/- a few orders of magnitude. She is also capable of turning herself and others invisible.

========
Team Member 3: Durandal (Marathon series)
http://marathon.bungie.org...

Durandal is a highly intelligent AI. He is capable of teleporting human-sized objects. He does not necessarily exist within a computer (it's not actually clear where he exists), and since I don't know where he exists, I don't know how he can be killed. For the sake of fairness, let's assume that he exists within the Borg cube and will die if the cube is destroyed. But being a computer program, Durandal is capable of getting into any computer that he can come into contact with (via internet or LAN), and if he does so, that computer must also be destroyed. Also because he is a computer program, Durandal is capable of complete control over any computer he is inside of, assuming that the computer does not have another AI inside of it. In the case of competing AI, the victor will be worked out during the later debate.

Durandal's intelligence, while limited, continually grows as the universe expands.

========

I will post my other two team members and begin my arguments in round 2. I eagerly await my opponent's response.
JBlake

Con

For my Ultimate Team I select:

BRIAN EGGLESTON (http://www.debate.org...)
Brian_Eggleston has the super-comedic ability. He has the amazing ability to string together a number of adjectives that would otherwise not appear together in the same sentence. This gives him the power to make even the most serious minded individual laugh out loud.

RAGNAR RAHL (http://www.debate.org...)
Ragnar Rahl has the amazing ability of extreme-consistency. He is unswerving from anything he has ever made up his mind on, ever. He also has the unbeatable finishing move: the last word. No one has yet survived a Ragnar Rahl Last Word.

LOGIC-MASTER (http://www.debate.org...)
Logic Master has the power of super-debate. He can logically outmaneuver any opponent on any issue - even on issues he opposes himself. It is also rumored that he will top any leader board no matter how concerted the effort to unseat him.

ASKBOB (Account Closed)
Askbob has the one-of-a-kind Lulz ability. This ability includes the power to insult, degrade, and otherwise mock any opponent to provide lulz to everyone around. This includes friend and foe alike. He also has the power to regenerate an unlimited amount of times once his "account" is "closed."

SOM31JOHN (http://www.debate.org...)
Som Thirty-One John has the unbeatable power to repulse any female, regardless of race, ethnicity, age, or species. It is said that this power emanates from his extreme chauvinist ability, bitter attitude, and all-around sarcastic demeanor.

It's your move, sir. Good luck, you are going to need it.
Debate Round No. 1
MTGandP

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting this debate.

*****

My opponent has broken several rules.

-He broke rule 3 by giving exaggerated powers to real people. For instance, Logical-Master cannot outmaneuver any opponent, as is seen by his multitude of losses (http://www.debate.org...). However, I will let this slide, since I think it'll be fun anyway.

-He has given unlimited powers to all of his team members, which violates rule 2. This is a more important issue. Brian has unlimited making-people-laugh power, RR has unlimited last word power (whatever that is), LM has unlimited winning arguments power, Askbob is immortal, and Som31 has unlimited female-repulsion power. These unlimited powers, while seemingly obscure, can potentially be exploited to defeat any limited enemy. I have no hope of victory. For example, my opponent could simply use Brian to make all of my team members laugh hysterically and uncontrollably, and then kill them one by one while they are incapacitated. I have no defense against this ability, since Brian's powers are unlimited.

I offer the following restrictions on my opponent's team members' abilities. I hope my opponent accepts them.

Brian Eggleston: Anyone with a normal sense of humor can be incapacitated with laughter. Those with minimal or no sense of humor, or those with superhuman willpower, are not affected.

Ragnar Rahl: He doesn't break any rules right now, but Last Word is undefined, and I don't like the "unbeatable" part.

Logical-Master: Has an AQ (argument intelligence quotient) higher than any living human. His intelligence exceeds that of Professor X, Reed Richards and the like.

Askbob: Askbob has the one-of-a-kind Lulz ability. This ability includes the power to insult, degrade, and otherwise mock any opponent to provide lulz to everyone around. He also has the power to regenerate an unlimited number of times as long as his "account" is "closed" in a location where he has access to the internet, and where he is capable of getting on the internet and creating a new "account" on debate.org.

Som31john: Can repulse nearly any female, the exception being those with superhuman willpower.

***
Irrespective of the rule breaks, I think this is going to be fun.

========
Team Member 4: Cable (http://www.superherodb.com...)

-Cable has great telepathy powers, and can "read thoughts across vast distances, and even interface with multiple minds, simultaneously. . . . Cable has also demonstrated the ability to project bolts or blasts of mental energy that are capable of easily killing or rendering unconscious another Human being. These bolts do not do physical damage. . . . Telekinetically, Cable is capable of very fine control over objects; he can disassemble complex devices explosively (separating every last component, such as screws, nuts, circuit boards, etc.), and just as quickly and easily assemble complex devices. This also has enabled him to even attain awareness and control over objects as small as individual electrons in an atom." He can also telekinetically lift several tons.
-He can create forcefields which can hold against "the ground zero detonation of a 1 kiloton nuclear warhead (4.18 terajoules of energy from the heat, concussion and radiation effects)." He can mold these forcefields into virtually any shape. "He has displayed the ability to control the minds and even voluntary and involuntary bodily functions of sentient beings (such as other Humans)".
-"Cable has proven very difficult to psychically assail, as he is very well skilled in shielding his own mind from mental-attacks (such as attempts to read, control or harm his own mind), and has been sufficient to protect himself from other psychics on the level of Phoenix (Jean Grey), Professor X and Marvel Girl (Rachel Grey)."
-Due to an infection by a techno-organic virus, Cable has become a cyborg. He possesses superhuman strength (he can dead-lift several tons with his left arm, and considerably less (but still a lot) with his right arm) and a resistance to physical damage (enough to be immune to standard firearms). He also has extreme physical and mental endurance; he can perform at his peak for hours on end, and can go for extended periods without sleep. He requires only one hour of sleep to become fully rested.
-Due to nerve enhancements, Cable has superhuman reflexes. He can dodge a bullet and even follow its path with his eye.
-His cybernetic eye is capable of seeing a huge range of the electromagnetic spectrum.
-Due to being cybernetic, Cable is weak against people like Magneto who can control metal. However, he can use his telekinetic powers to rapidly repair himself.
-Cable is capable of flight.
-He is highly intelligent, possibly superhumanly so.

========
Team Member 5: Magneto (http://www.superherodb.com...)

Magneto is capable of creating and manipulating magnetic fields, giving him great control over metal. He is powerful enough to significantly shift the earth's magnetic field and to move mountain-sized objects or larger. "He can completely assemble a complicated machine within seconds through his powers. He can erect magnetic force fields with a high degree of impenetrability protecting himself or others from almost any psionic, energy, or physical attack."
-Magneto is a brilliant genetic scientist who can alter human genes to turn humans into mutants (as defined in X-Men) and build artificial life forms.
-"Magneto's suit is made of flexible metal bonded on the molecular level, providing protection against projectiles, energy weapons, and concussive force; his helmet also provides further protection from psionic attack."
-And he's notably skilled at hand-to-hand combat.

========
========
Incapacitation Strategy 1: Destroy debate.org Server

This is necessary to incapacitate Askbob. There are several ways to do this.
1. Magneto or Cable disassembles it.
2. Magneto destroys it by smashing it up.
3. Magneto, Cable or Invisible Woman surrounds it in a forcefield, disconnecting it from the internet.
4. The Borg blow it up.
5. Durandal gets inside it and either disables it or prevents Askbob from accessing it.

========
Victory Strategy 1: Magnacrush

Magneto, safely away from earth on the Borg ship, creates a tidal wave, mass blackout, or some sort of natural disaster that kills each of my opponent's team members.

========
Victory Strategy 2: Bomb Field

Magneto, Cable and Invisible woman each place a forcefield around one or more of my opponent's team members, then detonate a bomb inside of it. Both Magneto and Cable are capable of rapidly assembling bombs. If necessary, Cable can use his telepathy to help Invisible Woman fend off Askbob's, LM's, Som31's or Brian's psychological attacks. (Note that Cable already has resistance, and Magneto's helmet gives him resistance.)

========
Victory Strategy 3: Assimilate

The Borg assimilate each of my opponent's team members. If necessary, Durandal can get inside of the Bog (since Borg are part computer) to increase their willpower, i.e. immunity to my opponents' psychological attacks. Assimilation will not work on LM because of his mental abilities, but after the other four are assimilated it becomes easy to dispatch of LM.

========
Advantage Strategy 1: Self-Assimilate

Since the Borg share all mental abilities, they can assimilate Magneto and Cable in order to acquire their powers. I will then effectively have an army of Magneto-Cable-Borg. This opens up more options for victory strategies.

========

I will possibly post more strategies in subsequent rounds. I look forward to my opponent's response.
JBlake

Con

I will quickly respond to the allegations of rule-breaking. Then I will post a quick compromise. Finally, I will post my argument/response.

======

If I have broken rule 2 (no unlimited powers) then so has Pro. He has an unlimited borg army, a telepathic who can interface with an unlimited number of people simultaneously just to mention a few. I accept the restrictions only under the condition that he provide similar restrictions to his own characters. However, I will not accept the limit of Askbob that his new accounts created only apply to DDO. Askbob's internet exploits are not limited to DDO, therefore they should not be in this game either.

======

Incapacitation strategies:

1. Som31john incapacitates the invisible woman by shadowing her and then using his seduction technique to repulse her. If he is unable, for any reason, to shadow her, then he remains close enough to the region of the other players so that if she attempts an attack on them he may similarly incapacitate her.
2. Brian Eggleston keeps Magneto busy by issuing a string of adjective-laden insults that baffles Magneto's overly serious and analytical mind. Magneto is stuck trying to figure out the meaning of such things as "canoodling cretins that conspicuously cavort in crowded carriages", "cretinous catering conmen", "Right Wing Tabloid-Publishing Plutocrats", "ignorant, loud-mouthed gobshites" and others.
3. Askbob incapacitates Durandal by providing an unlimited number of new network accounts, one after the other, that Durandal must delete.
4. Askbob keeps the borg busy by providing lulz at the expense of Cable's physical appearance. The borg cannot help themselves from laughing hysterically and collectively. I mean seriously, have you ever seen a more obvious closet-case? (http://www.superherodb.com...)
5. Logic-Master lures Cable in to a telepathy battle. Once Cable gets inside Logic-Master's brain, LM debates him simultaneously on hundreds of topics and provides arguments from both sides. Cable is unable to withstand such mental pressures and his head explodes.
6. Ragnar Rahl can incapacitate all characters provided by Pro by locking them into a debate in which he never backs down. The arguments go on indefinitely.

--------

Assimilation strategies:

1. Brian Eggleston uses his 'excessive charm' ability to convert the invisible woman from foe into friend. She is unable to resist his humorous charm.
2. Logic-Master lures Cable into a telepathy battle. He then uses his superiopr logic ability to debate and then convince Cable to join LM's side.
3. Askbob assimilates Durandal by hacking into his software and changing his allegiance to Askbob.

--------

Destruction of the enemy:

1. Logic-Master lures Cable in to a telepathy battle. Once Cable gets inside Logic-Master's brain, LM debates him simultaneously on hundreds of topics and provides arguments from all sides and angles. Cable is unable to withstand such a mental barrage and his head explodes.
2. Askbob defeats Durandal either by simply deleting his software, or if that is not possible, by implanting a virus that wipes him out.
3. Ragnar Rahl locks Magneto into a debate about the uses of metal as specie. Ragnar Rahl takes the opposing position and Magneto is unable to escape the debate. Magneto attempts to use his superior logic capability, but R&R is unable to be budged from his position. Finally, realizing the debate is useless, Magneto allows R_R to have the 'Last Word.' The 'Last Word' is so effective that it causes Magneto's brain to hemorrhage.
4. Som31John and Askbob team up to degrade the invisible woman for the obviously sexist, subordinate role she symbolizes by being 'the invisible woman.' She exits the battlefield, goes home and cries herself to sleep.
5. Askbob teams up with Ragnar Rahl to deride one of the borg as a tool unable to think for himself. The depression becomes overwhelming for the borg. His depression infects the rest of the borg, because their mind is as one. They simultaneously end their own pathetic, unoriginal lives.

=======

CONCLUSION
I have shown that all members of Pro's team are susceptible to assimilation, incapacitation, or ultimate defeat. Any combination of these strategies on an individualistic basis could result in complete victory for Team Con.
Debate Round No. 2
MTGandP

Pro

I thank my opponent for his interesting response. I accept his compromise in terms of rule breaking (i.e. yes, Askbob can be on any website), and offer the following restrictions on my own team members.

Borg: I never intended to have an unlimited number of Borg, though I did fail to specify how many I have. According to [1], the average Borg ship has 64,000 members so let's say I have 64,000 Borg.

Cable: Though my source did not specify how many people he can interface with, let's say he can telepathically connect to 100 people at a time. In this sense, the Borg count as a single person since they share a mind.

--------

Incapacitation Rebuttals

1. Invisible Woman, repulsed though she may be, will not be killed. She must be killed for my opponent to be victorious. How can she be killed when she is constantly running away from Som31? However, she does not have to be repulsed. Borg are neither male nor female [2], so all I have to do is assimilate Invisible Woman into my collective.
2. This only incapacitates Magneto, and does not kill him. However, I will accept that if Magneto is incapacitated by deep confusion, he is trivial to kill. But once again my solution comes from the Borg. Borg do not care about the thoughts of non-Borg, so if Magneto is assimilated, he will completely ignore Brian's rambling. It is also possible that a different Borg can come to Magneto's rescue.
3. I thought Askbob could only generate a new account after he died. Irrespective of that issue, my opponent has not taken into account the possibility that Durandal has a parallel processor. I mean, what kind of futuristic AI would not have a parallel processor?
4. So Askbob can provide lulz while creating many accounts? How is this possible? Anyway, the Borg a) are emotionless and b) ignore inferior creatures.
5. For the third time, the Borg are saving my team. Cable can be assimilated, and then ignore LM's debates.
6. Ah, I see what my opponent means by Last Word. But how can he force my team members to continue arguing? Why can't they just quit? Additionally, why can't they kill RR in between arguments or while RR is presenting his arguments?

--------

Assimilation Rebuttals

Preface: Each of these arguments goes against rule 6. However, I will rebut them just for fun.

1. But then she would run away from Som31, and would not have the advantage of the Borg on her side. Additionally, there are ways to prevent this. a) She could become a Borg, and Borg are not charmable. b) Cable could use his strong will and great intellect to hold Invisible Woman on his side. In fact, Cable could turn this around and use charm on Som31, Brian and RR. (It probably wouldn't work on LM.)
2. One word: Borg.
3. How can Askbob hack into Durandal? Durandal is a much better hacker than Askbob.

--------

Destruction Rebuttals

1. Wasn't this mentioned in the incapacitation section?
2. Ha! Durandal is five hundred years old, and is from the future. No virus known to man can penetrate his virus protection. Time travel eight hundred years into the future and bring back a hyperintelligent AI virus, and then maybe we can talk.
3. While debating, Magneto crushes RR's skull in with a large metal object. Or maybe Cable just punches RR really hard.
4. Once again, Borg. Besides that, she is not dead, just asleep. And she'll wake up if you come into her house to try to kill her. She sleeps like a soldier, that one. Also, Cable could use his immense willpower to help comfort and recapacitate* Invisible Woman.
5. a) Borg do not listen to petty humans. b) If any Borg shows signs of emotion, he is immediately disconnected from the collective [3]; while they are busy incapacitating one Borg, one of my other team members or another Borg comes up and kills Askbob and RR.

*That's not a word, but it should be.

========
Conclusion
========

I have shown why my opponent's strategies will not work. But my opponent has not shown why my strategies will not work, probably because they WILL work.

I look forward to the next round in this exciting debate.

[1] http://memory-alpha.org...
[2] http://memory-alpha.org...
[3] http://memory-alpha.org...
JBlake

Con

I would like to thank Pro for a quick and entertaining response. I will note that I meant to respond to Pro's strategies but forgot for some reason. I will respond to them in this round, as well as responding to his rebuttals to my strategies.

=======

I will begin by noting that Pro suggested the rule that the battle takes place on a neutral playing field, where no one has an immediate advantage. Therefore, the battle would have to take place where there is no metal located on the battlefield itself (Magneto's advantage). The only metal available would be provided by each character. On Team Pro that might include the borg collective, whatever container houses Durandal, or whatever metal is included in their clothing.

Luckily for Team Con, all Con characters are completely nude[1]. As a result, Megneto has no metal nearby that could kill anyone unless he uses the borg collective (which would destroy the borg), or Durandal's unit (which would destroy Durandal.

1. I will note here that this fact itself gives some31john a +381 boost to his female repulsion ability.

I will rebut Pro's strategies, then move on to defending my own.

======

Pro Incapacitation Strategy:
Pro's destruction of debate.org's server does no damage to my team, since none of them gain their power from it, nor are they exclusively bound to it for attacks (Admittedly, this would incapacitate or even destroy PoeJoe+1 if I had chosen him. Unfortunately for Team Pro, I did not). Additionally, this strategy would earn Team Pro Leader MTGandP a permaban from Phil once the server was restored.

----------

Pro Victory Strategy 1:
This strategy is too vague to offer a response. Pro agreed that it should be a neutral battlefield. Now he seems to be suggesting that the battlefield is all of Earth. If that is the case, then the distance between each character, and the near impossibility of Magneto locating each character among the 7 billion people on Earth would render the effect of an isolated natural disaster negligible. He would have to destroy the entire planet for guaranteed success - a power I don't think any of Team Pro's characters possess.

If we are on a neutral battlefield, then the only metal available to Magneto is Durandal and the borg collective, as mentioned above - since the entirety of Team Con is completely in-the-buff, exposed to all the world, nude. That means that Team Pro would be killing two of his characters in order to kill two of mine - we are still even (3 vs. 3).

--------

Pro Victory Strategy 2:
The only one of those characters possessing the ability to place an impenetrable forcefield around anyone is the Invisible Woman. Fortunately for Team Con, Naked31John can easily repulse any attempt by the invisible woman to get near the group.

--------

Pro Victory Strategy 3:
Pro has not offered any logical reason as to why the borg could so easily assimilate my entire team. If they can do so at will, then that renders the point of such a battle useless, as well as rendering the rule on unlimited characters void.

However, I will offer a rational as to why they would not. Ragnar Rahl, Askbob, and Som31John are all rabidly anti-conformists. They would never join any group or organization that emphasizes faceless, anti-individualist, conformist drones.

--------

Pro Advantage Strategy 1:
This strategy actually gives the advantage to Team Con. It consolidates Team Pro into one target (the borg collective) while simultaneously opening up the borg collective (including Magneto and Cable) to all the weaknesses of Magneto and Cable (see destruction of Team Pro points 1, 3, and 5).

=====

I will note that I did not outline any specific strategy in Round 2. I showed how each of Team Pro's characters were susceptible to being incapacitated, assimilated, or destroyed. Due to the confusion caused by my posting strategies in this manner, rather than as victory strategies, I will not respond to Pro's rebuttals. I will save those for his rebuttals of my Victory Strategies, which I will provide below.

-----

Con Victory Strategy 1:
1. Naked31John incapacitates the Invisible Woman by remaining near Team Con. She finds herself strangely unable to approach them by his mere presence.

2. Askbob hacks into Durandal's system and implants a virus that Durandal (being 500 years old and in the future) was not programmed to be protected against.

3. Since Pro argues that his response to all of Team Con's able and intimidating assaults is the assimilation of Cable and Magneto, the only thing left is to defeat the Magneto-Cable borg. This can be done in one of two ways:
a) Brian Eggleston unleashes a harsh string of adjectives, which might appear similar to the following: "Look at those delightfully mindless, useless-as-a-toolbox, wheelchair-bound Captain Picards!" The 'Captain Picards' bit would prove to be too much for the Magneto-borgs, who would immediately become depressed. As the depression moves from borg to borg it grows exponentially, eventually becoming unbearable. Each of the 64,002 borgs unceremoniously commit suicide because they are drones and unable to think for themselves.
b) Som31John, Ragnar Rahl, and Askbob - all confirmed /b/tards - team up to insult, deride, and otherwise mock the Magneto-borgs in a manner that is unsuitable for debate.org's Terms of Service. The fact that they are all naked and together only makes their attack more X-Rated (and thus more effective), oddly enough.

--------

Con Victory Strategy 2:
1. The /b/tards, minus Ragnar Rahl, team up to hurl sexist, chauvinist insults at the Invisible Woman. The Invisible Woman exists the battle field, runs home, and cries herself to sleep. This effectively takes her out of the battle.

2. Ragnar Rahl coaxes Magneto into a debate about metals. As R&R is known to do, the subject subtly shifts to the use of metal as specie, which turns into the finer points and merits of pure capitalism over all other systems. These subtle changes, along with frustratingly misguided positions, keep Magneto simultaneously enthralled and frustrated. Finally Magneto realizes the uselessness of attempting to change R&R's mind and allows him to have the last word. Ragnar's 'Last Word' is so effective is causes Magneto's brain to hemorrhage. Blood drips from his ears first, then his nose and eye sockets. He chokes on his own blood just before he reaches total brain damage.

3. Askbob, once the Invisible Woman is dispatched, lures Cable into entering his mind. Askbob is effectively sacrificing himself for the team's ultimate victory, but it is quickly shown to be worth it. Cable becomes extremely emotionally distraught; so completely disturbed that when he is lured into a telepathy battle with Logic-Master he is easily overwhelmed. The resulting stress on his brain from Askbob's disturbed mental state and Logic-Masters mental barrage that his head explodes.

4. a) Brian Eggleston sets up a Comedy Stand (similar to a lemonade stand) and uses his super-comedy to incapacitate the borg. While the borg are laughing uncontrollably, they fail to notice the poison that had been placed in their lemonade drinks. There were no survivors.
b) (alternate tactic) Brian Eggleston uses his advanced charisma to trick the borg into leaving their collective and joining his pseudo-religious cult. Because they are such automatons; and because they lack minds of their own they are easily convinced to drink the kool-aid. It is flavored 'red'. Plus, Brian gets rich.
Debate Round No. 3
MTGandP

Pro

Earth is a relatively neutral playing field, and my opponent's entire team lives there. So I thought it was a good place to start.

I would argue that an environment can be neutral and still have metal. But if there was a much higher amount of metal than usual, that would give an unfair advantage to Magneto. However, Earth's levels of metal are pretty average. But in the situation that no metal is considered neutral, Magneto can still acquire metal. He can rip out a chunk of the Borg ship, which will then quickly regenerate.

"1. I will note here that this fact itself gives some31john a +381 boost to his female repulsion ability."
Why?

========

"Pro's destruction of debate.org's server does no damage to my team"
Correct. It was only effective when I was assuming that Askbob drew his power from it. I'd have to destroy the entire internet. I will do so after the rest of my opponent's team is dead, so no one gets in my way.

--------

Pro Victory Strategy 1
If my opponent's team hopes to defeat me, they will have to make themselves known eventually. And even if they don't, I can spend all the time I want searching for them. Then I can defeat them with the aforementioned strategy.

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Pro Victory Strategy 2
-Invisible woman cannot make impenetrable forcefields, but hers are the strongest. Cable and Magneto can also create forcefields of considerable strength.
-Invisible woman cannot be repulsed by Som31john if she is Borg.

--------

Pro Victory Strategy 3
I concede this point, since it goes against rule 6.

--------

Pro Advantage Strategy 1
-The Borg do not all become vulnerable to (1), because Borg do not generally care about inferior life forms. Besides, the 64,003 members of the collective could probably hold their own against LM until one of them can go and kill him.
-They do not all become vulnerable to (3) for the same reason as above.
-(5) already rebutted in round 3.

========

Con Victory Strategy 1
1. Invisible Borg is not afraid of Naked31John.

2. Durandal is capable of adapting to new problems. He's an AI. Modern viruses are far less sophisticated than future viruses, so Durandal should have no trouble defending himself. (I say "himself" because he has a male personality, but being AI he has no real gender.)

3.
a) -Borg will ignore humans unless I order them not to.
-There is a failsafe mechanism in which any Borg showing signs of emotion is disconnected from the Collective.
b) See (a).

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Con Victory Strategy 2
1. She can be assimilated, or Cable could use his intellect and willpower to help comfort her. Durandal and Magneto could also try to comfort her. I will admit that Borg are not very good at comforting people.

2. -I could order Magneto to continue arguing. He would be incapacitated, but so would RR so we would both be down one.
-Magneto could be assimilated into the collective.
-I could order Magneto to not even start arguing. (This order does not work on LM since LM can force people to argue with him, but the same tactic works on all my opponent's other team members.)

3. -Askbob does not have luring powers. I can simply order Cable not to go inside his mind.
-Or Cable could be made a Borg.
-But if both Cable and Askbob die, it could be a fair tradeoff. Cable plays no key roles in my victory strategies. And then I wouldn't have to destroy the internet.

4.
a) First, Borg ignore humans. Second, Borg do not drink lemonade. They do not drink anything. They get power by plugging into their ship.
b) This will not work for the same reasons as (a). But I like my opponent's style with #4.

========

It may take time, it may require that Cable be sacrificed, but inevitably, my team shall be victorious. Mua-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!
JBlake

Con

Pro questioned why nudity gives som31john a +381 female repulsion ability. Mostly to make people laugh. The '381' was an arbitrary number that I thought would give away that I wasn't being entirely serious. The nudity part should have tipped you off.

=======

I will briefly respond to each Team Strategy. Then I will offer a few new Team Con Strategies focused on defeating the borg collective because Team Pro has relied solely on the borg's power of assimilation to save his players.

----------

Pro Victory Strategy 1:
At worst, the fact that my team is spread throughout planet earth would lead to a draw (if none of my characters sought out Team Pro. The point here is that this is not a winning strategy. If Team Pro were all assimilated into the borg collective and then sat on the borg ship conjuring up storms then it would be impossible to locate my characters among the entire planet of earth. The only way for this to be a viable "victory strategy" is if Team Pro somehow possessed the power to destroy all of Earth.

If they possess such a power then that really makes this entire team battle redundant, doesn't it?

----------

Pro Victory Strategy 2:
If the Team Pro is unable to construct an impenetrable forcefield then this attack would not be very effective. Team Con could just walk outside of them.

--------

Pro Advantage Strategy 1:
As I have shown above, Team Pro has yet to come up with a viable victory strategy. The only thing he has going for him thus far is the borg's ability to assimilate the rest of Team Pro. This is illustrated by his falling back on this fact in every rebuttal of my victory strategies. Therefore, if I can come up with a viable way to destroy the borg and Team Pro does not offer a better viable victory strategy then I win this debate. If Team Pro cannot come up with a viable strategy but he successfully rebuts my strategy for destroying the borg collective then this debate should end in a draw. I wish him good luck in his final round.

========

I do not concede that none of my Victory strategies are viable. Since Pro has relied on the borg's assimilation ability in each rebuttal then I will suggest a few methods of defeating the borg collective (including an assimilated invisible woman, Cable, Magneto, and Durandal. If just one of these cannot be successfully rebutted by Team Pro then it can be tacked on to the end of any of my Victory Strategies resulting in a win for Team Con.

-------------

Borg Collective Strategy 1:
This one is my personal favorite.
Logic-Master contacts the original writers who came up with the Borg Collective (Star Trek: The Next Generation); or he contacts the current trademark holder of their likeness. Logic-Master uses his debating power to convince them to a) write assimilation out of the Borg's ability;
b) write in the death of the Borg Queen, effectively destroying the collective aspect of the Borg;
c) write in the complete destruction of the Borg; or
d) file a lawsuit against Team Pro for using their likeness without consent.

-----------

Borg Collective Strategy 2:
Find and locate the 'Borg Queen.' Since she is the source of the collective consciousness, her death removes the collective conscious. What would then be left is the defeat of each individual character. This could be done by:
a) Askbob hacks into Durandal (who has been assimilated) and discovers the location of the Borg Queen. One or more of the group then commit regicide by melting off her organic components with 'Warp core plasma coolant' (http://memory-alpha.org... "First Encounter, paragraph 3).
b) Logic-Master uses his superior logic to trick one of the borg into telling him where to find her.
c) Brian Eggleston uses his superior charm to convince one of the invisible woman-borgs to tell him where to find her (assimilation is a synthetic implant, therefore assimilated characters retain their gender and species).
d) Infect her with a pathogen (http://www.startrek-voyager.info..., episode 2377) which then speads to the rest of the borg.

========

Once again I would like to thank Pro for providing me with the opportunity to debate this topic and have a few laughs. I also thank him for putting up with me despite the fact that this was not the debate he intended. Bravo, Good sport.
Debate Round No. 4
MTGandP

Pro

I assumed that the +381 thing was a joke. But seeing how this whole debate is kind of a joke, I thought it might fit in somehow.

========

Pro Victory Strategy 1
My team could search the planet for my opponent's team members. My team could then conjure storms on the earth, and keep moving them. Eventually, I'll hit one of my opponent's team members. They can't run forever!

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Pro Victory Strategy 2
Team Con cannot just walk through a forcefield. A forcefield can be broken, but to break it requires at least a one-kiloton nuclear bomb (depending on whose forcefield it is; Invisible Woman's can contain a supernova).

--------

Pro Advantage Strategy 1
The Borg have big guns on their forearms. They can track down Team Con and kill them one by one. Sure, Team Con can hide, but they cannot hide forever. Eventually, they will be found.

Any of my victory strategies still applies if my entire team is assimilated by the Borg.

========

Durandal is not a person, and therefore cannot become a Borg. My original plan was for him to attach himself to the mind of the Borg collective. He could also get into some other computer, and would then survive if all the Borg were destroyed. So if all the Borg are destroyed, Durandal can still live. He could maybe get inside of LM's personal computer and use it to wreak havoc and drive LM insane. Or he could write a program that would cause LM's computer to explode while LM was touching it, and use the internet to transfer to a different computer, rendering him safe from the explosion. Or he could spread himself over multiple computers and just destroy the one.

He could do the same for any of Team Con who had access to a computer. But if all of Team Con avoid computers, then Durandal cannot kill them and they cannot kill him, resulting in a draw.

--------

Borg Collective Strategy 1
This made me laugh out loud. However, it will not work, no matter how funny.
-I have defined the Borg in a specific way in round 1, and that does not change just because the writers of the Borg try to change it.
-This hasn't been adequately defined, so it's really up to the judges. But my opponent's argument could be considered an invalid meta-argument, since in the realm of this debate the Borg "really" exist, and that fact cannot be changed by the writers who invented the Borg.
-Another meta-argument: LM exists inside of this debate, while the writers exist in the real world. LM cannot jump outside of this debate. (Yes, LM is a real person, but we aren't talking about the real person during this debate. We are talking about a version of the real person.)

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Borg Collective Strategy 2
a) No mere human can hack Durandal.
b) Borg do not listen to humans unless I order them to.
c) But the person's mental structure is completely altered. This would be unsuccessful.
d) How do you find her?
-After the Borg queen dies, she is merely replaced. The collective is not harmed in any way. [1]
-Durandal, being a super genius AI, can take the place of the Borg queen in the case of her demise. This can be used as a backup system if the Borg queen cannot be replaced for some reason.

--------

I request that my opponent not provide any new strategies in his next post, since I will be unable to rebut them.

========

I thank my opponent for this fun debate. Although it was not quite the debate I intended, it turned out very well. My opponent played very creatively.

We are Borg. We have refuted your arguments. We still stand against your attempts at rebuttals. Resistance is futile. Vote PRO.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
JBlake

Con

I would like to once again extend my sincerest gratitude to Pro for not only providing me with this opportunity, but for putting up with the light-hearted nature in which I addressed this debate.

I also forgot to officially and retroactively appoint PoeJoe+1 my honorary Vice-Team Leader. His role is only to observe.

There is not much to add in this final post. Team Pro did not offer any new victory strategy, and did not show how his previous ones were viable. I will not offer any new arguments since Pro will be unable to respond. I will stick to refuting his:

=======

Pro Victory Strategy 1:
Pro suggests that his team could search for my characters indefinitely, eventually resulting in their capture/death. However, with a population of 7 billion (and growing), I will continue to assert that they would be up against extreme odds, especially since Team Con can move around freely and stealthily within that population. This allows them to stealthily pick off Team Pro, who must be out in the open in order to seek out my characters.

-------

Pro Victory Strategy 2:
If a forcefield can only be broken by a supernova then it follows that Team Pro cannot place a bomb of any sort inside the forcefield. They must either put it in before they put up a forcefield, giving any of my characters time to move outside of the range of the forcefield and/or bomb; or they must take down the forcefield to put the bomb in, giving my characters time to move outside of the range of the forcefield and/or bomb.

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Pro Advantage Strategy 1:
As I mentioned in Round 4, the only thing Team Pro had going for him was borg assimilation. I offered several methods of defeating the borg collective or their ability to assimilate. Some of these were not addressed by Pro, therefore we must assume them to be valid.

======

Con Borg Collective Strategy 2:
Pro seems to be correct in his assertion that the death of the Borg Queen does not defeat the borg. She is merely replaced. However, he did not address the transmission of a pathogen to the Borg Queen, which then transfers to the rest of the Borg (as seen in episode 2733, which was properly referenced in round 4). Therefore, I have successfully offered a strategy for defeating the borg collective altogether, including their ability to assimilate (you cannot assimilate if you are dead).

There are a number of ways to give her the pathogen. I will only mention the funniest:
Naked31John is injected with the pathogen and sent to infect the Borg Queen. She is resistant to his repulsion because she is a borg (Pro continually asserted that the borg were immune to his repulsion ability). He successfully seduces her. In the course of their intimacy, she is infected with the pathogen. The pathogen spreads to the rest of the borg collective.

Congratulations, som31john! Your first girlfriend! Included below is a picture of the happy couple:
http://www.debate.org...

=====

CONCLUSION
Team Pro failed to produce a viable victory strategy.
On the other hand, I have shown how each character of Team Pro is able to be defeated and/or incapacitated.
Therefore, I have won this debate. I have met my burden, while Pro has failed to meet his. I thank the readers for making it this far, and urge them to vote Con.
Debate Round No. 5
45 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by uppitynumber 6 years ago
uppitynumber
"I will note here that this fact itself gives some31john a +381 boost to his female repulsion ability."
LOL :D
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
Teams of people then. What matters is that they are independent. Well, not really. In the end, what matters is that in different canons, the characters' powers are different.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
I'm gonna have to disagree with your rendering of "canon", MTGrandP. The 616 universe Spider-Man has been written by dozens of different writers, yet it's all one continuity last I checked.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
A canon is a particular "universe" or interpretation. For example, Spider-Man comics may be written by two different, independent people. Each one has a different storyline and is a different canon.
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
Yraelz
I guess my question should really be, "what's a cannon?"
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
I made that rule so that you can't start pulling abilities from multiple canons, making the character stronger than in any one canon.
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
Yraelz
Someone explain this rule to me:

4. In the case of a fictional character, the team member's abilities must be according to a specific canon as chosen by the team leader.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
The next time I see an Ultimate Team War debate in the challenge period, I am so going to accept.
Posted by pewpewpew 7 years ago
pewpewpew
So much logic and genius must have been involved in this.
Posted by mongoose 7 years ago
mongoose
This was... genius. I laughed the entire way through.
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