The Instigator
migmag
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Robkwoods
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Unions

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/12/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 months ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 246 times Debate No: 93638
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

migmag

Con

You're completely wrong when you say they are no longer needed for anyone. I work in HR, and I can tell you that MOST entry level and/or minimum wage earning employees are treated HORRIBLY by their employers and given NO benefits with VERY low wages, and if/when they get a raise it's Five or Ten CENTS after a YEAR of their life dedicated to their employer, 5 cents? That doesn't nearly cover the cost of living increases in a year, which means they are actually making LESS this year than last year!
Robkwoods

Pro

OOOOOOOOOooooooooOOO! I love to hate me some unions!

I look forward to hearing why you believe unions are still necessary.
Debate Round No. 1
migmag

Con

I forgot that many of you on here are teenagers. You're response sounds like a teenage response. I explain in my LAST posts why Unions are needed. Employers do NOT give their employees DECENT raises, they get between ZERO to 15 CENT raises each year. In a Union, first of all you have a MUCH higher STARTING wage, then you get Cost of Living increases EVERY year AND performance based increases as well, not to mention MUCH better benefits: free healthcare, college tuition assistance, health club coverage, dental, vision, you name it! MOST entry level employees at NON union companies do NOT get ANY paid time for AT ALL!
Robkwoods

Pro

Starting with ad hominem, spicy. You seem like a peach. Good luck to you, Sir.

Labor Union: an organized association of workers, often in a trade or profession, formed to protect and further their rights and interests.

I think this is a fair definition.

Unions are no longer needed and based on the fact that technological advancements were the main source of easing labor hardships, I would say they were never needed. In 2013 Union membership is 6.7%. Manufacturing unionized jobs crumbled by 73% between 1983 and 2013. Non Union manufacturing jobs only fell by 7%. So I think the kids are alright.

Unions are the antithesis to voluntary exchange. Voluntary exchange is the exchange of goods and/or services by way of voluntary agreement between two parties. Unions operate under the assumption that they know what is better for the worker than the worker does. This is completely false and as Adam Smith stated, "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." Individuals will always operate in their own self-interest. They will pursue whatever they believe is best for them, this is the realm of free will. To limit a person"s free will is no different than slavery. As we know this behavior is immoral.
Henry Ford presents a great example of voluntary exchange. As more car manufactures began to sprout in the states, many of Ford"s workers were offered higher pay to work for the other companies. To combat the loss of some of his employees he counter offered. No unions, no minimum wage, just unfettered market.

Unions were never needed; the free market would have and did self correct unfair or exploitative employer employee relationships. In fact, the market was responsible for improving working conditions, unions simply rode the coattails. Technological advancements reduced labor hardships, not unions fighting for their workers. Unions actually hurt poor working families and slowed tech advancements with proposed restrictions.
"They have opposed the introduction of labor-saving machinery on the grounds that it causes unemployment"the abolition of child labor was an accomplishment of capitalism and the rise in the productivity of labor it achieved. As in the case of maximum-hours laws, insofar as child-labor laws merely ratified the abolition of child labor already being achieved by the market, they were superfluous. Insofar as they went ahead of the market, and imposed reductions in child labor beyond what parents judged their families could afford, they were destructive. Along with depriving poor families of urgently needed income, they had the effect of forcing children to work at lower wages and in poorer conditions than they needed to." ~George Reisman
Again Ford employees had no labor union. Emplyees were paid $5 per day, twice the normal wage. So much for exploitative employers.

1 Bureau of Labor Statistics
2 http://patriotupdate.com...
3 http://www.redstate.com...
4 http://www.unionfreeamerica.com...
Debate Round No. 2
migmag

Con

I work in HR, employers do EVERYTHING in their power to STOP employees from Unionizing, WHY? Because it is GOOD for employees and BAD for employers
Robkwoods

Pro

Con states that Employers do NOT give their employees DECENT raises.
Con doesn't provide a definition for DECENT; this is problematic as it subjective at best, based on current or past experience. Who is to say that 15 cents wasn't all the employer could afford. Wages have been stagnant for the past 8 years. Furthermore, con provides no data supporting this claim.

Con states that in a Union you start at a higher. Once again there is no data to support this. Con assumes that workers only want money, when it is possible workers may simply want to get their foot in the door or experience.

Con states Cost of Living increases EVERY year AND performance based increases as well, not to mention MUCH better benefits: free healthcare, college tuition assistance, health club coverage, dental, vision, you name it!
There is no data to support these claims. Further con doesn't point out that even if these things are true, they come at a cost in the form of union dues.

Con states that he works in HR, like a good little lap dog.
Debate Round No. 3
migmag

Con

EVERYONE who makes LESS than TWENTY 20 $/hour is going to AGREE with me because they ALL have seen between ZERO and TEN CENT raises MANY TIMES in their career. Unions give HUGE RAISES and GREAT STARTING pay from the VERY BEGINNING of their employment, not to mention FULL BENEFITS on the VERY FIRST DAY! NON UNION employers don't offer ANY benefits to the Entry Level Employees for MANY months even YEARS into their employment!
Robkwoods

Pro

Con has provided zero citations and zero rebuttals.

I have made my case.
Debate Round No. 4
migmag

Con

Long Story Short,
Compare the HOURLY rate of pay and the BENEFITS PACKAGE of ALL of the employees in UNION employment versus those in NON Union employment, and you'll see it's BLACK and WHITE! UNION employment comes with MUCH better STARTING rates of pay, as well as MUCH BIGGER RAISES throughout employment, not to mention MUCH BETTER Job Protection, and last but not least MUCH BETTER and MUCH LESS expensive Insurance costs!
I hope you are able to see it's pretty clear which type of employment is GOOD for employees and which is BAD for employees. And this comes from YEARS of CONFIDENTIAL access to Corporation Policies and Benefits as I'm and HR Specialist!
Robkwoods

Pro

Con's argument

"Unions are needed you know because reasons..."

Pro's argument
"Unions are no longer needed and based on the fact that technological advancements were the main source of easing labor hardships, I would say they were never needed."

"Unions are the antithesis to voluntary exchange."

Free market advances the labor force better than unions.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by whiteflame 1 month ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: Greyparrot// Mod action: Removed<

3 points to Con (Arguments). Reasons for voting decision: Do I really need an RFD for this? Seriously ddo police?

[*Reason for removal*] Unless one side in the debate forfeitted almost every round, or they simply never argued, a voter must always post an RFD. Both sides clearly argued the resolution, and regardless of whether the voter perceives a clear quality gap, that voter is still required to assess the arguments given by both sides and explain how they arrived at an outcome on that basis.
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Posted by migmag 4 months ago
migmag
I've REPORTED YOU for HATE SPEECH and PERSONAL ATTACKS, this is a place for DISCUSSION NOT personal attacks!
Posted by migmag 4 months ago
migmag
it's so useless to have debates with people who have no work place experience to make educated comments. Unions are night and day BETTER to their employees than Non Union employers.
No votes have been placed for this debate.