The Instigator
sidobagga
Con (against)
Tied
7 Points
The Contender
Rockylightning
Pro (for)
Tied
7 Points

Universal Health Care

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/13/2010 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,729 times Debate No: 11432
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (9)
Votes (2)

 

sidobagga

Con

You can go first
Rockylightning

Pro

No, that's ok sid, you can go first!
Debate Round No. 1
sidobagga

Con

sidobagga forfeited this round.
Rockylightning

Pro

Well, since my opponent has to do this I will state ONE point.

1. It helps the needy
Universal health care will help the needy because they can go to doctors.

http://www.prohealthcare.org...
Debate Round No. 2
sidobagga

Con

1. Universal Health care violates individual rights. "It is important that individuals be treated as free moral agents, accountable to their own actions, and not held accountable to the actions of others. Universal health care holds some individuals accountable for the actions of others." The main thing here is that "rights" should only protect individuals from harm from others and allow them certain freedoms, but a right to universal health care causes individuals burdening other members of society for things that are thought as needed or desirable. The extreme of this argument is the circumstance in which a careless smoker is given the "right" to burden others for their expensive health care costs. Also, food is necessary, but that doesn't mean its a right. There is a difference between rights and necessity's. It's not fair to those who are healthy to be burdened on and forced to pay for those who are unhealthy. People have a right to pay more for better health care. Froma Harrop said, "Canada's the wrong model for universal health care". Seattle Times. February 28th, 2007 - "There's also the freedom argument. People don't want to be told that they can't spend their own money on goods that would benefit them — and who can blame them?" Universal health care will have rules that decrease patient flexibility "Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?" Balanced Politics.org - "Government-controlled health care would lead to a decrease in patient flexibility. At first glance, it would appear universal health care would increase flexibility. After all, if government paid for everything under one plan, you could in theory go to any doctor. However, some controls are going to have to be put in to keep costs from exploding. For example, would "elective" surgeries such as breast implants, wart removal, hair restoration, and lasik eye surgery be covered? The compromises that result will put in controls that limit patient options. The universal system in Canada forces patients to wait over 6 months for a routine pap smear. Canada residents will often go to the U.S. or offer additional money to get their health care needs taken care of." I have stated one argument, which has effectively refuted your one point and has stated my views. Thank you, and I look forward to what other points you have. http://debatepedia.idebate.org...
Rockylightning

Pro

(Yeah alive again!)

\\\Universal Health care violates individual rights. "It is important that individuals be treated as free moral agents, accountable to their own actions, and not held accountable to the actions of others///

This is the UNITED states of America. Here we help each other. Here, if a fat man gets into the hospital, everyone pays for it. If the rich man gets into a car accident, everyone pays for it. Everyone helps each other!

\\\The extreme of this argument is the circumstance in which a careless smoker is given the "right" to burden others for their expensive health care costs. ///

This is a very extreme argument. The amount of money this smoker will burden the taxpayers with is minimal. On the other hand, the taxpayers WILL ALSO burden the smoker. The taxpayers have physicals, orthodontist appointments, Xrays etc. So saying that the careless smoker burdens the country is a BLATANT LIE!

\\\There is a difference between rights and necessity's. It's not fair to those who are healthy to be burdened on and forced to pay for those who are unhealthy.///

The people who are health pay maybe even more in physicals, Xrays, ETC. As I just stated.

\\\The compromises that result will put in controls that limit patient options. The universal system in Canada forces patients to wait over 6 months for a routine pap smear. Canada residents will often go to the U.S. or offer additional money to get their health care needs taken care of." ///

First of all, since YOU are the instigator, you have the burden of proof. You have provided only one source and NO proof and/or examples. You have not state WHAT universal health care system we are debating and when it will be implemented. Therefore this point is invalid.

(Bye the way voters, debatapedia is the wikipedia of debate, it can be edited by anyone, anywhere, anytime. So if you trust this source, that's your problem.

Now to expand on this point and bring new points to the table.

1. Problems with current (presumably US) system
Some 47 million U.S. residents have no health insurance, and the numbers keep growing. Because employers increasingly are moving in the direction of providing Wal-Mart-style health coverage by shifting health care costs to employees, America's workers struggle to pay higher premiums, deductibles and co-payments—if they can afford such coverage at all. Of the 47 million Americans without health insurance, 8.7 million are children. If we have Universal Health care, we will be insuring the lives of 8.7 million children. Not 8.7 million "careless smokers".

This argument is small but I would like to see Sid refute it. I will bring up more arguments later.
Debate Round No. 3
sidobagga

Con

sidobagga forfeited this round.
Rockylightning

Pro

Restate all arguments...
(this is really annoying...)

*sighs*
Debate Round No. 4
sidobagga

Con

Sorry I had to forfeit. I forgot to post my arguments on time

\\\ Some 47 million U.S. residents have no health insurance, and the numbers keep growing. Because employers increasingly are moving in the direction of providing Wal-Mart-style health coverage by shifting health care costs to employees, America's workers struggle to pay higher premiums, deductibles and co-payments€"if they can afford such coverage at all. Of the 47 million Americans without health insurance, 8.7 million are children. If we have Universal Health care, we will be insuring the lives of 8.7 million children. Not 8.7 million "careless smokers".///

You should get your facts right. What Universal Health care does (or at least the one proposed in America) is it requires people to buy health insurance. It doesn't give it to them for free. You have to pay it either directly or through taxes. The public option might be cheaper, but it still costs money, which some people don't have.

"First of all, since YOU are the instigator, you have the burden of proof. You have provided only one source and NO proof and/or examples. You have not state WHAT universal health care system we are debating and when it will be implemented. Therefore this point is invalid. Bye the way voters, debatapedia is the wikipedia of debate, it can be edited by anyone, anywhere, anytime. So if you trust this source, that's your problem." First of all, that is incorrect spelling of by. Second, you have stated only one source, which is pro-healthcare.com. When I visited the website, I saw nothing but a private insurance company's website.
My own arguments.
1. Its a socialized medicine.
a. Lenin said, "Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism." The government should not be in control of medicine and should generally not be in too many features of our lives. It is both inefficient and an intrusion on our fundamental rights.
b. "Medical resources are rationed in socialized systems so that some people are either denied care or have to wait for it. If a person is "rationed out" of the public health care service (perhaps because the treatment is not considered effective or cost effective enough to warrant intervention) they will be able seek alternative treatment in the private sector. If they cannot afford private care, they may have to go without."
c. Government will involve itself in decisions between doctors and patients under a single-payer system.
d. We'll be depending too much on the government. What if the government collapses or becomes corrupt? We can't always depend on the government. The government should depend on us.

2. Unfair to physicians
a. Does a physician not have the free right of association and contract with patients? Why would physicians be forced to perform free or government-set prices for their labor? Why shouldn't they be able to charge market value for their services?
b. Universal health care would deprive physicians of this freedom to charge market-value by imposing government pricing on their services, almost certainly at a discounted rate.
c. It is important to recognize that many private physicians have oriented their private practices around a certain level of cash-flow. They have rented office space at a certain level, taken out mortgages at a certain level, and sent their kids to private schools all on the assumption that their existing cash-flow in their private practices would continue into the future.
d. It is unfair to suddenly and dramatically curtail this cash-flow and force physicians to re-adjust their lives accordingly. For some, this will be impossible or unbearable.
e. With fewer financial incentives, fewer individuals would decide to become physicians in the first place. Talent would be lost from the industry and the quality of doctors and health care would fall.
f. Because more people seek care, doctors in a universal health care environment often are over-loaded. Hoping to meet their patients needs, they work over-time. Yet, by doing this, they often burn out and leave their practice early, exacerbating the problem even further.
3. Provides inferior care
a. The markets are better at providing quality; same with health care. The markets and competition generally help produce higher quality goods for the least money (the highest value). The same applies to health care.
b.Government-mandated procedures would reduce doctor flexibility/quality
c. From the article, should the government provide free health care to all Americans, balanced politics.orgd. "Government-mandated procedures will likely reduce doctor flexibility and lead to poor patient care. When government controls things, politics always seep into the decision-making. Steps will have to be taken to keep costs under control. Rules will be put in place as to when doctors can perform certain expensive tests or when drugs can be given. Insurance companies are already tying the hands of doctors somewhat. Government influence will only make things worse, leading to decreased doctor flexibility and poor patient care."
e. According to Reuters in London, one in 10 patients admitted to National Health Service hospitals in Britain is unintentionally harmed and almost a million safety incidents, more than 2,000 of which were fatal, were recorded last year, according to a report on July 6, 2006. Such figures were "terrifying enough", the report by parliament's public accounts committee said, but the reality may be worse because of what it called "substantial under-reporting" of serious incidents and deaths in the NHS
f.Most of what determines length and quality of life (excluding human issues such as traffic accidents, homicides...) is genetics and life style choices (eating/exercise). Early detection will certainly weigh heavily on life expectancy for certain diseases, but no amount of "prevention" will stop cancer if you genes are highly susceptible. As most people know, most doctor's visits end with "take this and call me if it doesn't get better" which should hardly be seen as "preventative" of anything.

4. Slows down innovation
a. The primary cause of this is a reduction in economic incentives for innovation. In general, the only way that people will take the time, energy, and risks involved with innovation is if there are substantial returns for their investment. This notion underpins the markets and capitalism generally, but is undermined by universal health care. Universal health care, therefore,
b. Under investment in single-payer system leads to capacity shortages A lack of willingness to invest in expensive technology leads to shortages in areas such as MRI scanning. Some would argue that only the price mechanism in free market health care can allocate resources efficiently and that political pressure often leads to shortages in socialized systems.

5. delays
a. Frequent cancellations are a feature of universal health care systems. A function of "rationing", doctors sometimes have to cancel visits in a single-payer system.Single-payer, universal health care results in long waits for patients Canada is a prime example of this. Many people find themselves waiting for long periods for care in Canada, and sometimes come to the United States to receive faster and higher quality care.
b. John Goodman, president of the National Center for Policy Analysis, wrote, "rationing by waiting is pervasive, putting patients at risk and keeping them in pain."
c. Frequent cancellations are a feature of universal health care systems. A function of "rationing", doctors sometimes have to cancel visits in a single-payer system.
Sources:"Against Universal Coverage". National Review Online. June 21, 2007
Michael Tanner and Michael Cannon, of the CATO institute. "Universal healthcare's dirty little secrets". Los Angeles Times. April 5th, 2007
Brian Schwartz. "Universal Health Care Is the Wrong Prescription". The Heartland Institute. June 1, 2008
Froma Harrop. "Canada's the wro
Rockylightning

Pro

\\\You should get your facts right. What Universal Health care does (or at least the one proposed in America) is it requires people to buy health insurance. It doesn't give it to them for free. You have to pay it either directly or through taxes. The public option might be cheaper, but it still costs money, which some people don't have.///

My facts are right sid. You pay through it in taxes, of course. Chain of events: Your company does not need to give you health insurance because of bill, the company no longer loses money by paying for your health, therefore they can pay you more in salary.

You brought up new arguments in your rebuttal, so I must refute those... *sighs*

\\\Lenin said, "Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism." The government should not be in control of medicine and should generally not be in too many features of our lives. It is both inefficient and an intrusion on our fundamental rights.///

First of all you quoted Lenin, second of all this is irrelevant because this does not influence the debate at all because it is one man's opinion who lived once upon a time in a land far far away called the Soviet Union.

\\\We'll be depending too much on the government. What if the government collapses or becomes corrupt? We can't always depend on the government. The government should depend on us///

If the government collapses, I think the last thing we'll be worrying about is our doctors appointments. Business is already corrupt, better start fresh!

\\\With fewer financial incentives, fewer individuals would decide to become physicians in the first place. Talent would be lost from the industry and the quality of doctors and health care would fall.///

You shouldn't use money as the reason you're a doctor, it should be for REAL reasons like compassion and caring.

\\\The markets are better at providing quality; same with health care. The markets and competition generally help produce higher quality goods for the least money (the highest value). The same applies to health care.///

The markets can provide quality, but if you have:

Pregnancy
*

Obesity
*

Diabetes
*

Arthritis
*

Depression
*

Fibromyalgia
*

Asthma
*

Thyroid Disease
*

Kidney Disease
*

High Blood Pressure
*

Cancer
*

Back Problems
*

Lupus
then YOU WONT GET ANY INSURANCE AT ALL!

The debate goes to the pro.

VOTE PRO!
Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Qynze 5 years ago
Qynze
rockylightning wins...
Posted by Qynze 5 years ago
Qynze
nice tristan...
Posted by Qynze 5 years ago
Qynze
rofl sid ur only debate so far?
Posted by alto2osu 6 years ago
alto2osu
Now you know how I feel when SAC screwed me over... :P One of two losses was totally illegit b/c he forfeited, I forgot about the debate, and he voted for himself. I didn't vote.
Posted by jingzhezhang 6 years ago
jingzhezhang
This is stupid, what's the point if you vote for yourselves?!
Posted by Rockylightning 6 years ago
Rockylightning
thats pathetic sid

REMATCH!
Posted by Koopin 6 years ago
Koopin
Man, sorry rocky. I would have voted for you because you were vote bombed...And you clearly won.
Posted by Rockylightning 6 years ago
Rockylightning
since you votebombed, so will I
;D
Posted by sidobagga 6 years ago
sidobagga
Sorry for forfeiting. I keep on running out of time to post arguments.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Rockylightning 6 years ago
Rockylightning
sidobaggaRockylightningTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by sidobagga 6 years ago
sidobagga
sidobaggaRockylightningTied
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Total points awarded:70