The Instigator
jingzhezhang
Con (against)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
sherlockmethod
Pro (for)
Winning
27 Points

Universal Health care

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
sherlockmethod
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/10/2010 Category: Education
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 6,058 times Debate No: 11596
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (15)
Votes (5)

 

jingzhezhang

Con

Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

There isn't a single government agency or division that runs efficiently; do we really want an organization that developed the U.S. Tax Code handling something as complex as health care? Quick, try to think of one government office that runs efficiently. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? The Department of Transportation? Social Security Administration? Department of Education? There isn't a single government office that squeezes efficiency out of every dollar the way the private sector can. We've all heard stories of government waste such as million-dollar cow flatulence studies or the Pentagon's 14 billion dollar Bradley design project that resulted in a transport vehicle which when struck by a mortar produced a gas that killed every man inside. How about the U.S. income tax system? When originally implemented, it collected 1 percent from the highest income citizens. Look at it today. A few years back to government published a "Tax Simplification Guide", and the guide itself was over 1,000 pages long! This is what happens when politicians mess with something that should be simple. Think about the Department of Motor Vehicles. This isn't rocket science--they have to keep track of licenses and basic database information for state residents. However, the costs to support the department are enormous, and when was the last time you went to the DMV and didn't have to stand in line? If it can't handle things this simple, how can we expect the government to handle all the complex nuances of the medical system? If any private business failed year after year to achieve its objectives and satisfy its customers, it would go out of business or be passed up by competitors.

"Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc. There's an entitlement mentality in this country that believes the government should give us a number of benefits such as "free" health care. But the government must pay for this somehow. What good would it do to wipe out a few hundred dollars of monthly health insurance premiums if our taxes go up by that much or more? If we have to cut AIDS research or education spending, is it worth it?

Profit motives, competition, and individual ingenuity have always led to greater cost control and effectiveness. Government workers have fewer incentives to do well. They have a set hourly schedule, cost-of-living raises, and few promotion opportunities. Compare this to private sector workers who can receive large raises, earn promotions, and work overtime. Government workers have iron-clad job security; private sector workers must always worry about keeping their jobs, and private businesses must always worry about cutting costs enough to survive.

Thank you, and I look forward to your response (if you accept) :)
sherlockmethod

Pro

I thank my opponent for offering this debate and since he is new to the site, I will avoid semantics concerning the resolution. Con asks too many questions to be addressed so I cannot hit them all. For starters, I don't like copy and paste arguments. Con sent a message and told me to "make it good" in reference to my position. A strange request from a person who did not take the time to write the material he presented. Con should present his own arguments in the future or at least source them: http://www.newpatriotjournal.com... (paragraph starting with "There isn't a single government agency…") Con's whole RD 1 is a copy and paste, without a source; this is plagiarism. I ask for a conduct point from the start. I spent considerable time sourcing this pundit piece as no citations were offered.

After addressing Con's points, I will be presenting the Pro position on universal healthcare reform in the United States presented by the recently passed bill in the US Congress and signed into law by President Obama. H.R. 3590 http://thomas.loc.gov...::

Con asks, "Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?" The answer is simply that the government is not proposing free health care for anyone. As Con accurately copied later in his argument, nothing from the government is free, we pay for it. In addition, the government will not be the health care providers, individual companies, under new regulations, will be the providers. The public option did not make it. http://www.politifact.com...

Con plagiarizes: "There isn't a single government agency or division that runs efficiently" I disagree, the US military runs quite well. We have an effective blue water Navy, one of the best Air Forces in the world, and the Army and Marine Corps have shown time after time that they are formidable fighting forces. In addition, the healthcare plan is very nice for US military members, and the government runs the entire show. I have no need to address the other agencies listed, as I need only offer this one per Con's stipulations.

Government Waste:
Yes, any bureaucracy entails waste, I agree, but we need to examine Con's specific claims:
1.Tooting Cows: Anytime I can talk about farts in a debate is a good time (I can't stop giggling). As much fun as cow farting is to me, the issue has "exploded" worldwide. Agriculture is a big business in the US and the USDA conducted studies to deal with the large amount of methane, and other problems, "emitted" by livestock. In addition, animal waste is a huge concern considering the amount of livestock present in the US. Here are the studies: http://www.ars.usda.gov... this issue may seem trivial at first glance, but changing the feed and other conditions can help lower err…emissions. How is this a bad thing? The studies were covering an important issue considering the amount of livestock in the US.
2.In reference to the M2 Bradley, I am familiar with the book, "The Pentagon Wars" concerning this issue, but I fail to see the analogy between heath care reform and defense procurement problems from the cold war era. I ask that Con clarify.

Con copied, "What good would it do to wipe out a few hundred dollars of monthly health insurance premiums if our taxes go up by that much or more?"

The problem is that many would not mind paying out a few hundred dollars a month for health care; the issue is they can't get it. One of the major functions of this reform is the elimination of the preexisting conditions criteria within the private health care industry. This reform bill will not be the first piece of legislation dealing with preexisting conditions as many states have a high risk fund. http://www.naschip.org... and the states allocate money to these programs. If you live in one of these states, you have been paying taxes for these programs already. You live in Texas so you have been paying for a while now. http://www.txhealthpool.org...

Con copied, "Profit motives, competition, and individual ingenuity have always led to greater cost control and effectiveness." Always? Remember your statement about the M2 Bradley? The contractor (BAE), a private, profit motivated, competitive company produced the machine, not the US government. I need only one instance to make this statement false as it is absolute, and you provided it for me, thank you. http://www.baesystems.com...

The bottom line on the healthcare reform bill is that the US Government is not making the healthcare industry a government agency. The industry is now regulated better and Americans are required to purchase insurance or must pay to not have it. State governments have been doing this for years with vehicle insurance. In emergency situations, all patients are taken. One is not pulled from a car wreck AFTER checking for insurance. A patient about to give birth is not turned away at the door. We pay for these procedures now in the form of increased medical costs.
http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://www.acponline.org...
http://www.kff.org...

We are already paying for medical care for the uninsured and have been for quite some time. Now we can get some better regulations to deal with the matter. So much of the healthcare debate dealt with pundits screaming, "Socialism and death panels", but the government has been involved for quite some time. We finally got a President and Congress able to overcome the vast ignorance associated with this issue and able to implement solid reform. The reform bill is not a government takeover or socialism. The bill is a badly needed reform package that addresses many concerns individual states have attempted to address already.
Debate Round No. 1
jingzhezhang

Con

I thank my opponent for accepting this debate.

America is often criticized for its lack of a universal health-care system comparable to the Europeans and Canadians, even though Germany, the United Kingdom and even Canada are increasingly turning to the private sector in order to relieve the financial burden on government and solve serious delivery problems, most notably "rationing by queue," the prolonged wait times for many services, including cancer treatment and cardiac surgery. Compared to the private sector, government programs are inefficient and the higher costs have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, or even medical research and development. This is a tradeoff that most Americans would not be willing to make.

If low-income persons find health-care coverage unaffordable, they should be subsidized by the government, but they should retain ultimate ownership of their health-care resources and the choice about how those resources will be utilized. Such patient ownership and choice will create the demand for price and quality transparency necessary to make value-based health-care decisions.

The fundamental flaw in universal health-care systems is a misplacement of incentives. The decisions that drive health-care costs and quality of care are made by individual patients and their health-care providers. These decisions should not be influenced by universal government mandates, administered pricing systems or expenditure targets, but should instead be based on an adequately informed assessment by individual patients and their providers about the value of services in a particular clinical situation.

In conclusion, universal health care is not the kind of health care we can get.

Thank you.
sherlockmethod

Pro

My opponent has forfeited per his statement in the comments section. Since he forfeited and presented a second round of copy pasta, this debate is over. I will not waste more time dealing with unsourced claims copied from the net. Sorry to waste voter's time.

Sincerely,
Sherlockmethod
Debate Round No. 2
jingzhezhang

Con

I forfeit.
sherlockmethod

Pro

See above statement.
Debate Round No. 3
jingzhezhang

Con

I forfeit.
sherlockmethod

Pro

See above.
Debate Round No. 4
jingzhezhang

Con

I forfeit.
sherlockmethod

Pro

See above.
Debate Round No. 5
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by sherlockmethod 6 years ago
sherlockmethod
Thank you, Roy. Your points are valid and I will consider them when my opponent forfeits in the future and I am in the Pro position.
Posted by RoyLatham 6 years ago
RoyLatham
I don't think copy-and-paste is a conduct penalty, but failure to acknowledge it is, and so is forfeiting. I think copy-and-paste is OK if the person then owns and defends the arguments, and clearly that didn't happen. It should be done by saying something like, "I support and will defend the case previously made by XYZ as ..." All the word have to be copied, because arguments cannot be made by reference.

There is a bunch of debate trivia: "free" in the context of the debate clearly meant "free of immediate charge to the user;" the public option would not have provided free care, it would have competed in selling health insurance, the resolution was about providing free care directly by the government -- which was not proposed as part of the Obamacare debate. No matter.

I don't think it is usually necessary to continue debating after an opponent forfeits. An ecepion is when Pro has the burden of proof, fails to make a prima facia case in his opening argument, then bot sides forfeit. The burden of proof is not met, so Pro loses. I think it is best to therefore argue briefly against all the points made even if an opponent is going to forfeit. Someone can come along and judge the debate solely on the arguments presented.
Posted by jingzhezhang 6 years ago
jingzhezhang
I forfeit.
Posted by Xer 6 years ago
Xer
I wouldn't write a response. You've already won with or without the forfeit.
Posted by sherlockmethod 6 years ago
sherlockmethod
Interesting, Con did the same thing this round and then forfeited. What's the standard here? Do I avoid an argument and just put "opponent forfeited" or do I address the second round of copy pasta?
Posted by jingzhezhang 6 years ago
jingzhezhang
I forfiet.
Posted by sherlockmethod 6 years ago
sherlockmethod
The copy pasta has been used to address the current bill, that is the reason I used it. I found it on five different forums, that is the reason I addressed it. If the resolution is not about the healthcare bill then I'm not overly concerned about it as it is a hypothetical, but this same speech is used concerning the current bill. We will see.
Posted by Korashk 6 years ago
Korashk
sherlock, Con's argument may have been copypasta, but from what I've read this debate is about universal health care and whether or not it is a good idea, not HR 3590. I don't even think Con mentioned the reform bill (though I could be wrong, I speed read and therefore miss details a lot >_<).
Posted by sherlockmethod 6 years ago
sherlockmethod
I found it 10 min. after taking the debate. Needless to say, I address the issue. I usually google large arguments offered with no citations. I usually find them too.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 6 years ago
RoyLatham
jingzhezhangsherlockmethodTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Vote Placed by micktravis 6 years ago
micktravis
jingzhezhangsherlockmethodTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Doctor_Murray 6 years ago
Doctor_Murray
jingzhezhangsherlockmethodTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Antonio12 6 years ago
Antonio12
jingzhezhangsherlockmethodTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by vervatos 6 years ago
vervatos
jingzhezhangsherlockmethodTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07