The Instigator
brian_eggleston
Pro (for)
Winning
41 Points
The Contender
mongeese
Con (against)
Losing
36 Points

Unwelcome immigrants from the United States should be shot

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/5/2009 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,498 times Debate No: 8527
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (24)
Votes (15)

 

brian_eggleston

Pro

"This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England."

When William Shakespeare wrote these immortal lines in the late 16th Century Europeans were first establishing colonies in North America. Back then, the Bard surely couldn't have imagined that centuries later immigrants from that continent would cross the Atlantic in the other direction and settle in this green and pleasant land that we Englishmen call home.

Some years ago, when these visitors first came to our clouded hills and pastures green they were welcomed as treasured guests but, unfortunately, when we gave them an inch they took a mile.

Since then they have spread disease, driven much of the indigenous population off their land and shown scant regard for our precious countryside. These Americans tend to be bigger than the locals and they are also very aggressive, especially the black ones.

Now it's time to say "enough is enough" and rid our fine country of these unwelcome pests. Prince Charles wants to see these vermin "eliminated" and I believe the most effective method of achieving this would be to shoot them.

We must act now before it's too late and the decedents of the grey squirrels that our Victorian forefathers imported from the United States completely decimate England's native red squirrels.

Thank you.

Source:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...
mongeese

Con

Unwelcome immigrants from the United States should not be shot.

The UK cannot afford to make such a mistake.

They already have their own problems. Muslims are much more of a threat to them right now.

They shouldn't add angry Americans to their growing troubles.

America has nuclear bombs.

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org...

America also has the world's most powerful military.

http://www.lonympics.co.uk...

"The world's biggest economy and by far in terms of spending and power the worlds strongest army, the most powerful democracy, and the media centre of the world, plus in many ways the centre of world diplomacy and foreign relations. This easily makes the USA the worlds most powerful country."

The United States has already defeated England in two wars.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

They would no doubt do the same today.

Americans believe that their citizens all have the right to life.

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness..."
http://en.wikisource.org...

When the UK starts to kill off Americans in Britain, the Americans will declare war on the UK.

This war will ultimately make both countries worse off, although UK will suffer much more than America.

"Since then they have spread disease, driven much of the indigenous population off their land and shown scant regard for our precious countryside. These Americans tend to be bigger than the locals and they are also very aggressive, especially the black ones."
That's funny; that sounds like what the Europeans did when they first encountered America.

"Now it's time to say 'enough is enough' and rid our fine country of these unwelcome pests. Prince Charles wants to see these vermin 'eliminated' and I believe the most effective method of achieving this would be to shoot them."
Well, Prince Charles would probably not want to see the UK blown up in nuclear waste.

"We must act now before it's too late and the decedents of the grey squirrels that our Victorian forefathers imported from the United States completely decimate England's native red squirrels."
If you start shooting Americans, and Americans launch nukes on the UK, then both the grey squirrels and the red squirrels will be decimated.

Because this shooting plan would have overall negative effects on both America and the UK, unwelcome immigrants from the United States should be shot.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
brian_eggleston

Pro

Many thanks to Mongeese for accepting this debate.

Unfortunately, it would appear that my attempt at satire was not an unmitigated success. Just to clarify, the subject of this debate is squirrels, not people!

Though (deliberately) not immediately obvious, the "immigrants" I refereed to were the gray squirrels that were imported into England from North America in the 19th Century and which have since largely displaced the native red squirrels here.

Please be assured, therefore, that I used the words "pests" and "vermin" in their literal sense and the "black ones" I mentioned are the darker variety of the North American squirrel that have more testosterone and are even more aggressive than the regular greys (as detailed in my source). I sincerely regret the fact that I gave the impression that I was being abusive!

As a final word of explanation: there was, of course, a subtext to this mode of argument - that being that there is a very fine line between patriotism and nationalism and some leaders exploit people's loyalty and love of their country to promote all manner of obscure and nefarious causes, labelling people who disagree with them as unpatriotic or even traitors.

Moving on, in response to Mongeese's arguments, I fully agree with all his points. For the record, citizens of the United States are always more than welcome in England - America has been our closest ally in modern times and this point was widely echoed yesterday during the 60th anniversary of D-Day ceremonial events in Normandy at which President Obama and the Prince of Wales were both in attendance.

http://edition.cnn.com...

Just to further clarify, most English people identify themselves culturally more with Americans than they do with continental Europeans, even though a vast ocean separates us rather than the mere 26 miles of water that lies between England and France.

To conclude this round I would like to return to topic of the debate and reiterate that the problems gray squirrels are causing in England are intolerable and that they must be culled in order to prevent further destruction to the country's flora and fauna.

Thank you.
mongeese

Con

Sorry. I really didn't think much of the paragraph about squirrels. The reference to "black ones" was especially confusing, as I thought you were talking about African Americans.

Anyways, I don't think that shooting would be the solution.

For one thing, the UK has "what is believed to be some of the strictest gun legislation in the world."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

There wouldn't be any guns with which to shoot these unwelcome immigrants.

Furthermore, they're only up to a foot long, and very agile, so it would take numerous bullets just to hit one of them.

Now, why not just let the grey squirrels displace the red squirrels?

According to Darwin, with this competition, the strongest, most adapted squirrels will survive.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Obviously, the grey squirrels are more adapted than the red squirrels.

So, all you have to do is think about it as the red squirrels going through extremely quick natural selection into the incredibly adaptive grey squirrels.

Furthermore, I reiterate that the Europeans displaced and destroyed the Native Americans when they first came to America. It's only fitting that the Europeans find their squirrels being displaced and displaced by American squirrels in much the same way.
The Native Americans gave the Europeans some land; they wanted more.
The Europeans destroyed and industrialized much of the countryside, while the Native Americans were opposed.
The Europeans spread horrible diseases to the Native Americans.
The Europeans were more aggressive than the Native Americans.
So, the Europeans are getting their just desserts.

They should not shoot the grey squirrels, because that would interfere with Darwin's natural selection, and they're just suffering their own just desserts.

Thank you. Vote CON.
Debate Round No. 2
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
That was my argument.
Posted by atheistman 7 years ago
atheistman
The British were 'unwelcome immigrants' to the Native Americans.
Posted by RoyLatham 7 years ago
RoyLatham
How about we take back our squirrels and you take back your @#$%^& starlings?

Future debate topic: "American chefs are severely lacking in morels." A morel is a delicious but rare mushroom.
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
feverish
Nice comparison with native American people and native British squirrels in round 2 Mongeese, although of course the 'bad' Europeans in colonial times are mostly the ancestors of white American people rather than British.

Punishing squirrels for the actions of people seems unfair whether you are talking about letting the red squirrels die out or culling grey ones.
I do think it is a shame for the red squirrels but don't agree with culling the greys.

Can't vote but think a tie would be pretty fair, although Con should perhaps be penalised for not reading Pro's source in round 1.
Posted by brian_eggleston 7 years ago
brian_eggleston
Great comeback with the squirrel argument in R2 Mongeese - funny and also a very good point about the gun laws. Thanks!
Posted by I-am-a-panda 7 years ago
I-am-a-panda
7 points to Eggleston if I could vote because Mongeese epically failed
Posted by thisoneguy 7 years ago
thisoneguy
I could also debate that the US did not win Independence from the UK ! Do the people who start wars get killed in the war they started ?, not even Hitler got killed. ! And he burned down his own parliament building to drum up support for WW11, (False flag operation) this has been going on for years, 9/11, 7/7, the Lusitania, Pearl Harbour, Do people really thing that the Japanese just sailed up and destroyed 2.400, people undetected, and then 1 million US citizens enroled for service in the declaired war within a week, when previously not one of them were interested, who gained from the falkland war ? the war Lords ! Go Google "the gulf war" (web not videos) there you will find a video about an hour long that will open your eyes to some of the things that are going on in this world !,,
Posted by Common_Sense_Please 7 years ago
Common_Sense_Please
Hmm.. I felt I had to add a comment to reply specifically to studentathletechristian8.

Annihilated in two huge wars? One wasn't even won and the other, as I put in the earlier post was not a huge war in our eyes, it was a drop in the ocean. And the word annihilated is a bit strong. There were about 8000 American deaths in battle compared to 1,240 British (according to Wiki).

"It will only cause us to go over and destroy you guys once again." You've never beaten us on our own turf. You think the US could try and invade the indigenous population and win? Well, you know how that turned out in Vietnam...

"obliterated you guys on several different occasions." You won a war ONCE. And 'obliterated' is more than an exaggeration.

"arrogant attitude and think they are more intelligent than Americans." Well done for generalising a whole population. However, I do wonder when I see things like this...

"I'm number one in my class, my graduating class." Well judging on your knowledge of your own country's history, it doesn't count for much.
Posted by Common_Sense_Please 7 years ago
Common_Sense_Please
If a war broke out between America and Britain, America has no allies. Britain has the EU for a start. The war in 1812 was not 'won' by America... In fact Britain won the last battle of the war. It was mutually agreed that a treaty should be drawn up. In both the wars against the USA, Britain has been fighting someone else at the same time... Never have we fought one on one with both armies at their fullest. Well done for gaining independence in a side war of little importance compared to the other threats we faced. Britain has the best man for man trained army as well. I'm not saying Britain would definitely win, but it's definitely not as clear cut as some people on here seem to think...
Posted by thisoneguy 7 years ago
thisoneguy
I could argue every point each debator has made to this point, yes every one, but to do so would not only take up more time than I can afford, but would also have you the reader, think me as insane,
Never the less, I will shed some light on my arguement.
Have you ever heard the story of Nero, the Roman who burnt Rome to the floor, then blamed the Christians and stood back and watched the mayhem, ? ( you can Google "Nero burning Rom 6", if you were looking to burn some disks, note: if you flip the 6 it becomes an "e") Anyway, the same thing happened on 9/11, and 7/7, so con is wrong to say that anyone other than his own Government is the biggest threat,
I will provide proof to all who ask me to, mean time here are some fact regarding the date 9/11 in history.
9/11 is the Egyptian new year, a big day in freemasonary.
On September 11, 1609
the explorer Henry Hudson sailed into
New York harbor and discovers
Manhattan Island and the Hudson River. (Ship named "Half Moon" Masonic sign)
9/11 construction began on the Pentagon (1941)
The world was introduced to terrorism at the 1972 Munich Olympic Games. These games ended on September
11, 1972
William Wallace leads over 15,000 Scottish soldiers
to victory over the English Army at the Battle of
Stirling Bridge. Battle depicted in the film Braveheart
The British defeat the Americans, led by George
Washington, (1st Freemason Pres') at the Battle of Brandywine Creek in the
American War of Independence. The battle is regarded
as the first where Americans carried the American Flag
(Old Glory) to battle. (1297)
The siege of Fort Henry began, and becomes the last
battle of the American Revolution (1782)
The American navy defeat the British in the Battle of
Lake Champlain in the War of (1812)
President Roosevelt, British PM Winston Churchill, and
Canadian PM Mackenzie King met in Canada, at the
Quebec Conference. Also, the US 1st Army crosses the
border into German territory. (all freemasons)
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