The Instigator
lord_megatron
Con (against)
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The Contender
gryephon
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Use of soul and does it exist

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/12/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 733 times Debate No: 73324
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
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lord_megatron

Con

Does the soul really have any use? We may be born in afterlives, but if we forget everything, how do we know if there is another new soul or same old? Soul seems like just a small coxing that we have immortality. I doubt does the soul exist.
Good luck my opponent, and please give some reasons for your answers.
gryephon

Pro

Thanks for the debate. Since I didn’t see anything that indicated round 1 was for acceptance only I’ll go ahead and continue on




The meaning of soul

Well first we need to establish the meaning of the soul before we continue. As it is generally understood as the soul is the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.


The Computer Analogy

I’ll explain it this way. I personally believe we are biological machines. I think this because it doesn’t seem that underneath the skin things spontaneously operate without any reason whatsoever. To me everything in the body has a sense of order like that of machinery (e.g. blood flows throughout like electricity does in electronics).

Now it is interesting to note that there are some machines that seem to operate off of the immaterials… Namely the computer. A computer can be divided out into two things, the hardware and software. Now what’s software? If you search google for “software define” you’ll find that that software is defined as “the programs and other operating information used by a computer.” Now what I’m going to claim is that software is immaterial to the most part, it’s made out of language, and language doesn’t exist, though I speak this in the material sense of existence.

Like a computer has hardware and software… You have flesh and bones which is essentially the hardware of you, so what’s the software? Well we have beliefs, we have principles we live by that defines our character, we can know things… but all this stuff is immaterial, knowledge, ideas, ambitions, principles don’t materially exist.

Everything about you that is immaterial means something (e.g. your ambitions about your career, your ideas) and if you accept this is true, meaning can be expressed in language. So your soul would be as immortal as words are immortal. So yes, the soul is immortal in a manner of speaking, to answer your question.

You asked if you forget everything, is it the same or new? This is kind of a difficult question to answer as my encounters with people with full blown amnesia is quite few, like down to 1… I did know an elderly lady whose memory was so bad, that she forgot her husband that she’s been married to for the last 20+ years. When I was talking to her, she didn’t seem to be a different person in the sense of having any major character changes (e.g. turned into some psychotic egotistical bloodthirsty menace)… She seemed to be fundamentally the same person, just didn’t remember things. So I’m going to lean towards a probably not, as I think the soul is the same in a sense, just lacking memories.

The logic behind it.

1. Knowledge, character, beliefs, thoughts, and personal experience are the parts of you that are immaterial.
2. The soul is the immaterial parts of you.
3. If you have knowledge, character, beliefs, thoughts, and personal experience… Or at least one of these, then…
4. You have a soul.

Debate Round No. 1
lord_megatron

Con

Well so you define the soul as an immaterial part of us. You account knowledge, belief, thoughts etc. for the existence of soul. But then all these go on in our brain, how do we know soul actually carries on, and is not just another idea?
As for my question about memory, what I meant to point towards was rebirth. If you are reborn, how do I know it is you or a new soul? What if we all don't get to enjoy immortality, we just die as bone and flesh? What is the use of this soul and does it even exist? Its just like saying the hardware of this computer is blown, even the hard disk but you managed to transfer data without any physical connectors to another dormant computer. It lacks sense. Please tell me what use is this soul and is there anything to make me see its existence??
gryephon

Pro






The Immaterial Soul

Well yes I’ll agree with you that the immaterials might be stored in our brains. But this doesn’t mean that they aren’t immaterials because they’re stored somewhere.

Numbers are abstracts that physically don’t actually exist. Like the shapes “1, 2, and 3” merely represent numbers, but shapes aren’t the numbers themselves because there is a difference between symbols and quantity. Now inside a computer software, information might be represented in binary (eg 01100001 = “a”), but does information materially exist? No. I guess sure you could argue that information can represent things that is physically real (e.g. articles on say American President Barack Obama) but this would be irrelevant because information can represent things that don’t exist (e.g. superman, Zelda, transformers).

You asked how we would know the soul carries on, I myself don’t know for all souls. When a computer breaks down beyond repair, is the software lost? It depends if you backed up the data or not… If you did back up, you just simply get new hardware, if not, well you get the idea. When discussing the soul, it’s easy to point out the immaterials that composes you, and also that immaterials don’t bleed nor die like our mortal bodies (making it immortal), but for the soul to carry on to new hardware after the old one has been destroyed I don’t know it for certain, more towards hope it.


Rebirth

When you’re a child you mature into an adult. Now is your childhood and adult self you? Yes, they are you, just you at different times. As time moves on you take on different roles, servant and ruler, child and adult, student and educator. You never cease to be you, you merely take on new roles. Rebirth you just take on the role of a new born. So yes, you could still be immortal and go through rebirth. If you’re eager to know if I’m still the same soul, you simply ask… I’ll say “it’s still me”. And if you disbelieve, that is your problem to figure out, for I would know because I’m me, and you are not me, so you wouldn’t know.

What use is it? This is kind of like having a computer with its hardware, yet no software, which makes practically useless. If you didn’t have a soul, you would not have a mind, which means you can’t strategize on your video games you play. You won’t have any friends, because for social relationships to function it requires memories which is parts of the soul (just imagine walking up to the same person again and again and never make any progress in knowing him\her because the person is a stranger every time you meet). Having careers in anything would be impossible because you could never learn anything (knowledge or information is immaterial) you ask what use is it, I guess the simplest answer is making you useful to begin with. Your soul is literally you.

It making not any sense. I don’t see why it’s impossible to transfer one soul to anther flesh, like that of transferring software to other computers. As to you actually seeing a soul, do you experience any of the immaterials? Do you believe or doubt? Do you disagree or agree? Do you have a position on anything? Do you think? Do you learn? Do you have plans about your future? Do you like or hate something? Do you have any principles? Do you have ethics? If you have any of these you have a soul because these things are immaterial. And the soul is the immaterial part of you.

Debate Round No. 2
lord_megatron

Con

First lets decide what do you want the soul to be. Do you want it to be the processor, the hardware or the software? I am really confused. This debate can be immaterial as you cannot take this site out of this computer screen, but will it mean it has a soul?
As for knowledge and information, it can be made material by writing, making videos and representing it in other ways.
If the soul is the immaterial part of me, then is my body just storage? Isn't the brain responsible for our workings of the mind, for you don't really carry on anything if rebirth is possible, how do you know there is an additional soul for us and we are not surviving by our brain only?
Software is immaterial, but that doesn't give the computer a soul. Why then 'As to you actually seeing a soul, do you experience any of the immaterials? Do you believe or doubt? Do you disagree or agree? Do you have a position on anything? Do you think? Do you learn? Do you have plans about your future? Do you like or hate something? Do you have any principles? Do you have ethics? If you have any of these you have a soul because these things are immaterial. And the soul is the immaterial part of you.' these would give us a soul?
Plus most of these would require intelligence, and intelligence is developed in the brain, so how can these be attributed to the soul? The brain also has memory so 'If you didn"t have a soul, you would not have a mind, which means you can"t strategize on your video games you play. You won"t have any friends, because for social relationships to function it requires memories which is parts of the soul (just imagine walking up to the same person again and again and never make any progress in knowing him\her because the person is a stranger every time you meet). Having careers in anything would be impossible because you could never learn anything (knowledge or information is immaterial) you ask what use is it'
even without soul I would be able to do these. Also the mind dies along with the body, and also is not yet proven to be separate from the brain, so the mind can't be given to the soul. You wrote that the soul is me. But wouldn't I be different in the next life? How do you know that soul is from this life or a new one? Do you know who were you in the past life? Do you remember your journey from life to death to life? If you don't, how do you still know this empty soul is even present? I ask again, What use is the soul and does it even exist?
gryephon

Pro


“First lets decide what do you want the soul to be. Do you want it to be the processor, the hardware or the software? I am really confused. This debate can be immaterial as you cannot take this site out of this computer screen, but will it mean it has a soul?”


I’m saying the software is immaterial, so I’ll say software, because it is analogous to the soul. The hardware makes it possible to process the software, so the processor I guess wouldn’t be the software but the hardware. Does that make any sense?


I’m not saying this debate is a soul, it has two souls debating right now, you and me. In round one I talked about the meaning of the soul, in which these words are found “immaterial part of a human being or animal” So no, this debate wouldn’t have a soul because it’s not a human or animal.


“As for knowledge and information, it can be made material by writing, making videos and representing it in other ways.”


When you carve on a rock something you know, for example “I’m too sexy for my shirt” or “2+2=4” is knowledge there? Well no, not literally. Knowledge and information has no actual substance itself. You break open the rock that you carved and scan every inch of it yet you’ll find no new substance (only the substances that compose the rock) This is why knowledge\information doesn’t physically exist, they’re immaterials. You brought up writing, but just because you write something in pen down doesn’t make knowledge and information actually material… You can pull out a microscope, and look everywhere finding no new substance that is different than the ink and paper (except maybe dirt). So no, when you represent things you don’t make the immaterials literally material, you just merely represent them as a way to understand or know them.


“If the soul is the immaterial part of me, then is my body just storage? Isn't the brain responsible for our workings of the mind, for you don't really carry on anything if rebirth is possible, how do you know there is an additional soul for us and we are not surviving by our brain only?”



Well I don’t think that it’s just merely a storage. I view your body as a slave to your soul. Software gives instructions to the hardware for it to carry out without pay or compensation, just like the soul gives a will or instructions to carryout in the body. So the body isn’t just storage, it’s the soul’s servant.


As a response to rebirth, I’m starting to think I’m not understanding you at all here. At first I thought you were talking about losing all memory of who you are. The second time around I thought you were talking more in the “maturing in or re-mature in” something like what Jesus was talking about to Nicodemus in the 3rd chapter of John found in the New Testament… Which is why I was talking about the difference in child and adult and explain you were still the same person. You seem to think rebirth in some sort of absolute reset or something, but I don’t know if your soul ever goes through a rebirth where everything new and old was reset to some sort of factory default (you permanently lose your experience knowledge, character developed, et cetera). I’m sorry, but I can’t answer your question unless rebirth is defined.



“Software is immaterial, but that doesn't give the computer a soul. Why then 'As to you actually seeing a soul, do you experience any of the immaterials? Do you believe or doubt? Do you disagree or agree? Do you have a position on anything? Do you think? Do you learn? Do you have plans about your future? Do you like or hate something? Do you have any principles? Do you have ethics? If you have any of these you have a soul because these things are immaterial. And the soul is the immaterial part of you.' these would give us a soul?”


Yes, if you are a human or animal and have the immaterials, you have a soul. In round 1 I defined the soul as “the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.” The computer doesn’t have a soul because it isn’t classed as a human being or a member of the animal kingdom. If you build an android, programming it to think and experience the entire range of human emotions, even have its own opinions on matters… But would it ever be a soul? No. Not because it can’t have the same immaterials as people have, but because it’s not a member of the Homo sapiens or the animal kingdom. If soul was broader in its definition (anything, instead of just humans and animals), then yes, an android or a computer would have a soul.


“Plus most of these would require intelligence, and intelligence is developed in the brain, so how can these be attributed to the soul? The brain also has memory so 'If you didn"t have a soul, you would not have a mind, which means you can"t strategize on your video games you play. You won"t have any friends, because for social relationships to function it requires memories which is parts of the soul (just imagine walking up to the same person again and again and never make any progress in knowing him\her because the person is a stranger every time you meet). Having careers in anything would be impossible because you could never learn anything (knowledge or information is immaterial) you ask what use is it'”


As I mentioned earlier in this post the analogy of the rock… You pop it open there is no intelligence substance. If memory is stored in the brain somewhere say in chemical, does that mean intelligence is material? No. The chemicals would be just merely representing the intelligence so that it can be processed or something.


“even without soul I would be able to do these. Also the mind dies along with the body, and also is not yet proven to be separate from the brain, so the mind can't be given to the soul. You wrote that the soul is me. But wouldn't I be different in the next life? How do you know that soul is from this life or a new one? Do you know who were you in the past life? Do you remember your journey from life to death to life? If you don't, how do you still know this empty soul is even present? I ask again, What use is the soul and does it even exist?”



No you wouldn’t be able to do those things, because there would be no “I” without the soul, because the soul is you. As to separation, one can simply put software on a disk or USB, separating it from its initial body and transfer it to another body (I don’t see why the soul can’t do the same). If the brain represents the immaterials (e.g. knowledge, memory, beliefs, will, et cetera) Then I don’t see why one can’t represent it on pen paper… if this is so, in theory anyone’s soul can exist inside of a book. Also, I don’t follow you what you’re saying that the mind can’t be given to the soul…. I understand the mind to be immaterial, and the brain to be material, the mind itself is unseeable. Can you even show me a picture of the mind?


Why do you think your soul will be different in the next life? I have no reason to think that. Also a lot of questions you asked about the afterlife, memories stuff I can’t really answer because I’ve never been dead before, so I can’t answer them. But what does it matter for this debate if they don’t get answered? Just because I don’t know if you forget things or not doesn’t mean that the soul can’t exist or it has no use whatsoever. The resolution states “Use of soul and does it exist” obviously it has uses, you wouldn’t exist without the soul cause there would be no you without it… Every decision you made in your life is from you soul… Obviously it does exist because we all experience the immaterials.


Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by lord_megatron 2 years ago
lord_megatron
Give me the link there can't be a valid source. Plus recorded incidences? Please tell me how to record the past life that was yours and find it in the future and realize that it was you. And if you are no specialist, don't bother researching.
Posted by Furyan5 2 years ago
Furyan5
Yes of course the articles could be fake. You have to look at them individually, check the sources, then decide on merit. But its the number of recorded insidences that interested me. Far too many and if just 1 is real/true there's your proof. I'm no specialist on how the soul works. There could be millions or just 1 used over and over. Why some have recallections and others dnt??? No idea.
Posted by lord_megatron 2 years ago
lord_megatron
How do you know whatever articles I am gonna read are just imagination or real experiences? I am sure I can make up some story and say it to be true. As for instant like/dislike, you are saying that my soul recognizes theirs from my previous life, but I couldn't have possibly met the entire world? Can't my soul travel continents? And what about a poor new soul in the past, would it not have any intuition? OF COURSE that soul also will be able to predict likes/dislikes. And no, I have not really felt much deja-vu, and didn't you say soul was an empty memory stick? If you say some fragments remain, why there is no important stuff remaining to find my past life? And why does the soul need to be empty?
Posted by Furyan5 2 years ago
Furyan5
If it was only ram, past life experiences would be impossible. And dnt be lazy. Google past life experiences and read some of the articles. why do you think you take an instant liking or dislike to someone? Your soul recognises theirs from a previous life. Have you ever felt deja-vu? Another example. Its the only explanation that makes any kind of sense to me. But I'm open to other views.
Posted by lord_megatron 2 years ago
lord_megatron
give me the link there is no memory of past life. How do we know there was even this memory stick or we were just working on ram?
Posted by Furyan5 2 years ago
Furyan5
Oh. Think of your soul as a memory stick. But only god can read the contents. All your experiences get loaded on this memory stick. Once you die its pulled out. If its not full it can be inserted into a new body. As for proof, research past life experiences. There are many. Children speaking languages they couldn't know. Recalling events accurately that they couldn't know about. Etc.
Posted by Furyan5 2 years ago
Furyan5
I dnt know......identical twins....hmmmmm...... what do you think? :+0
Posted by lord_megatron 2 years ago
lord_megatron
mutated dna? DNA isn't exactly same in all right?
Posted by Furyan5 2 years ago
Furyan5
You obviously dnt have much experience with babies. From birth they display differing personalities. The variations in experience at that age is minimal. The only logical explanation is that each of us is born with something that makes us different. It can't be genetic as even identical twins possess differing personalities.
Posted by lord_megatron 2 years ago
lord_megatron
what if personality is developed due to experience?
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