The Instigator
400spartans
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Bogcha
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points

Vaccines have been a benefit to mankind

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Bogcha
Voting Style: Open with Elo Restrictions Point System: Select Winner
Started: 6/7/2015 Category: Health
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 941 times Debate No: 76281
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (1)

 

400spartans

Pro

I believe that vaccines have been beneficial to people, as they protect them against diseases.

BOP is shared, good luck to Con.
Bogcha

Con

Thank you to the instigator for this debate. I see this debate as a challenge for the CON so that is the reason why I have accepted it. Let's get started shall we?

1 Distrust in the Pharmaceutical Industries [1]

Surely the title of this statement is a bit odd, but I will develop on it. Hormone Replacement Treatment which in essence is a care for menopausal women in treatment with estrogen's with the aim of alleviating menopausal symptoms or osteoporosis. Now this somewhat new (only been around for 40 years) medication has given indication in an increase of breast cancer, 41% increase in heart stroke and 29% increase in heart attack. [1]
Another drug called Vioxx used mostly for arthritis and menstrual-related symptoms, now discontinued, resulted in numerous associated deaths due to heart attacks or strokes. [2]

2. Vaccination leads to a weaker more dependent immune system
Children who from an early age have had been injected/vaccinated for every disease (as perceived by their parents) have had a drastic increase in the rates for autism, ear infections, ADHD, asthma and allergies as much as 30% higher than unvaxed children. [3]

I will develop more in the rounds to come

[1] http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com...
[2] http://www.drugs.com...
[3] http://www.naturalnews.com...
Debate Round No. 1
400spartans

Pro

Points

1. Diseases

Vaccines have been able to reduce cases of infectious diseases like measles, mumps, and smallpox by between 90 and 100%. These diseases used to kill millions, but now with vaccines, they are almost eradicated. (1)

Rebuttals

1. Distrust in the Pharmaceutical Industries

While there can be distrust, this doesn't change the fact that vaccines have been useful. Medications like Vioxx aren't vaccines, so they aren't related to the debate.

2. Vaccination leads to a weaker more dependent immune system

a. Autism

There have been numerous tests containing thousands and even as high as 1.2 million children that keep saying this: There isn't a link between vaccines and autism. (2) (3)

b. Ear infections

Wow. You're listing side effects of vaccines, and say ear infections?

1. Most ear infections are solved by vaccines! The most common ear infection, known as otitis media can be vaccinated against. (4)
2. See Point 1 at the top. What is worse, an ear infection, or deadly diseases?

c. ADHD

Wrong. Vaccines do not cause ADHD. Genetics might. (5) (6)

d. Asthma and Allergies

1. Vaccines don't have a link to asthma, and rarely cause allergic reactions. (7)
2. See Point 1. Would you prefer a deadly disease, or asthma?

Sources:

1. http://www.niaid.nih.gov...
2. http://jama.jamanetwork.com...
3. https://www.autismspeaks.org...
4. http://www.entnet.org...
5. http://www.additudemag.com...
6. http://www.babycenter.com...
7. http://www.worldallergy.org...
Bogcha

Con

Pro,
Understand that this is a debate not a preference discussion. It will be based on logic arguments and sources ("Would you prefer a deadly disease, or asthma?")

Going further, lets have a look at your references:

[1] http://www.niaid.nih.gov...

You have based your only argument on the table that can be seen in link above. Let me brake it a bit. As you can see in the First Row, second column, it mentions the number/baseline of cases pre (before) vaccination in the 20th century. Then, at the very end, it can be observed the Percent Decrease. This percentage/value does not indicate that those numbers have been in fact reduced by that value due to the effects of vaccines (ie. some people built their own immunity) just because the reported cases have decreased it does not mean that it is due to the vaccines. This applies to all the diseases/infections in that table.

Provide more arguments to support your case.

Defense:

1. Distrust in the Pharmaceutical Industries

True that the Vioxx is not a vaccination, but the only difference is the way it is administered. I do not want to get into medical terminology, but, in short, some drugs cannot be swallowed, so they have to be injected directly into the blood stream vs others can. The point I was trying to prove is that the Pharmaceutical Industries do have a percentage error/mistake (humans make mistakes) but this can result in negative results for the individual ranging from mild pains all the way to death. (The old saying "Engineers fix/repair their mistakes, but doctors bury them")

2. Side effects of vaccines

"My first two children have had febrile seizures after routine vaccinations, one of them a serious event. These events did not stop me from vaccinating my third child, however, I did take some proactive measures to reduce the risk of similar adverse effects. I vaccinated my child in the morning so that we were aware if any early adverse reaction during the day and I also gave my child a dose of paracetamol 30 min before the vaccination was given to reduce any fever that might develop after the injection" [1]

I copied the above statement from your source #2. This is an example of a real life individual who has spoken to the authorities/press. This proves to be that for example I, as a sick individual, who is required to take a certain medication/vaccine have to comply to the exceptions/rules that are associated with that drug (side effects) just so I will no get sicker or to conquer/overcome my disease.

Here are some examples of side effects and the associated vaccines:

Chickenpox Vaccine
Vaccine strain varicella zoster infection after vaccination without other organ involvement;
Vaccine strain varicella zoster infection and subsequent infection resulting in pneumonia, encephalitis, meningitis or hepatitis in individuals with demonstrated immunodeficiences; [2]

Two Canadian flu vaccines were linked to oculo-respiratory syndrome characterized by conjunctivitis, facial swelling, and mild respiratory symptoms. [2]

Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) Vaccine [2]
Measles inclusion body encephalitis
Febrile seizures, a type of seizure that occurs in infants and young children in association with fever
Short-term joint pain (arthralgia) in children and women

Hib Vaccine Side Effects
Fever over 101"F [38.33C] (up to 1 out of 20 children) [3]

Thank you, and good luck :)

[1] https://www.autismspeaks.org...
[2] http://articles.mercola.com...
[3] http://www.historyofvaccines.org...
Debate Round No. 2
400spartans

Pro

I believe that everybody here knows that asthma is better than deadly diseases. So, even if vaccines cause asthma, it is still better off having a vaccine.

"This percentage/value does not indicate that those numbers have been in fact reduced by that value due to the effects of vaccines (ie. some people built their own immunity) just because the reported cases have decreased it does not mean that it is due to the vaccines."

I might as well say that this quote does not indicate that vaccines cause autism, ear infections, ADHD, asthma, and allergies:

"Children who from an early age have had been injected/vaccinated for every disease (as perceived by their parents) have had a drastic increase in the rates for autism, ear infections, ADHD, asthma and allergies as much as 30% higher than unvaxed children."

But here. If you want a link, I'll give you one.

http://www.who.int...

"...some drugs cannot be swallowed, so they have to be injected directly into the blood stream vs others can."

This says that some injections can be mistrusted. Please stay on the topic.

"This proves to be that for example I, as a sick individual, who is required to take a certain medication/vaccine have to comply to the exceptions/rules that are associated with that drug (side effects) just so I will no get sicker or to conquer/overcome my disease."

People are indeed given exemptions for vaccines if they have an adverse reactions to them. Herd immunity protects them against diseases. https://en.wikipedia.org...

Hib Vaccine

From your link: No serious side effects have been related to the Hib vaccine.

I will talk about the other vaccines next round.
Bogcha

Con

'I believe that everybody here knows that asthma is better than deadly diseases."
That is not correct, asthma is also a deadly disease if not taken care of. Asthma if not taken care of at the time when a rash/attack appears can be deadly. The incident happened with the individual who was assaulted by the police. They placed him on the ground and he yelled at them that he has asthma and can't breathe. A few minutes later he died. [1] ) (It's a video)
So as you can see everything is deadly, just because you have a medication or treatments to suppress or pr-elongate your life it does not mean that it is "better"...

"I might as well say that this quote does not indicate that vaccines cause autism, ear infections, ADHD, asthma, and allergies."

You have failed to identify with the content label of your reference. I mentioned that % decreases does not tell you it is because of vaccines. Does it?

Here are some other vaccines:

1. Adenovirus vaccine side-effects:
Severe Side effects can be: -blood in the urine or stool
-pneumonia
-inflammation of the stomach or intestines [2]

2. DTaP vaccine side-effects (used to combat Diphtheria, Tetanus, and acellular Pertussis)
-Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
-Permanent brain damage. [2]

3. Influenza vaccine side-effects
-Young children who get inactivated flu vaccine and pneumococcal vaccine (PCV13) at the same time may be at increased risk for seizures caused by fever. [2]

[1] http://www.nydailynews.com...
[2] http://www.cdc.gov...
Debate Round No. 3
400spartans

Pro

400spartans forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
400spartans

Pro

400spartans forfeited this round.
Bogcha

Con

"Posted by 400spartans 2 weeks ago

400spartans If I were to forfeit, then I would lose.

But I don't do that :-)"

This comment has been posted by the Instigator (CON).

VOTE PRO :)
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by 400spartans 1 year ago
400spartans
Sorry for the forfeits but I've been very sick these past couple days. I won't be able to debate for at least another week.
Posted by Bogcha 1 year ago
Bogcha
Lol i mixed up my stands in the last round... :(
Posted by 400spartans 1 year ago
400spartans
@Kryptic

Most of them have been... eradicated.

BA-DUM-CHH
Posted by Kryptic 1 year ago
Kryptic
where are all the anti vaxxers?
Posted by TruthS4yer 1 year ago
TruthS4yer
One issue here is how you're defining/measuring "benefit". The only disease/pathogen ever eradicated is smallpox I believe, which was achieved using a vaccine. Vaccines have also almost eradicated polio.

It could however be argued that the hundreds of millions that have survived as a result of these are going to help bring about much greater eventual suffering, through their contribution to overpopulation.

As for arguments about vaccines being used by pharmacology companies to make money rather than cure disease; this seems implausible as vaccines are at most a 1-3 time thing, about once a decade, assuming boosters are required shortly after the initial inoculation and that it is a non-live vaccine (they last for life). I.E. they're infrequently needed and so unlikely to be massive money makers.
Posted by Almec 1 year ago
Almec
Hmmm...
See reading those comments I'm actually thinking I should debate this. Since many sources I get news from cover the bad parts of vaccines and pharmacies I do feel that, even if I am not opposed to vaccination myself, that I could give a fairly good argument here.

However I do believe a better debate would be a debate on whether vaccinations should be mandatory or if they should be voluntary, because even those who support vaccinations don't always want them to be mandatory.
Posted by 400spartans 1 year ago
400spartans
If I were to forfeit, then I would lose.

But I don't do that :-)
Posted by joetheripper117 1 year ago
joetheripper117
I don't see how Pro could conceivably lose this debate.
Posted by Rami 1 year ago
Rami
What do you mean?
Posted by Kryptic 1 year ago
Kryptic
obviously it has :)
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
400spartansBogcha
Who won the debate:-Vote Checkmark
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture of half the debate by Pro, which led to all arguments by Con being dropped.