Vainglory Topic: Is Lyra OP
Debate Rounds (3)
The rules are no trolling, swearing, or any action that would ruin the debate. It is preferable to use sources to support your argument
I propose this format:
Round 2: Arguments
Round 3: Rebuttals and Conclusion
Overpowered: to have more strength, force, or effect than (someone or something)
Sources may be a hardship for this debate, but I will try my best.
Good Luck to Pro!
I believe Lyra is overpowered for four reasons: her heroic perk, her imperial sigil, her bulwark, and her small amount of counters. Out of the four, the bulwark is the main reason.
Let me briefly explain Lyra's abilities. Her heroic perk is that her basic attacks shoot an extra arcane missile that deals crystal damage. The missile slows her target. Additionally, the missile uses up a small amount of energy, but when depleted of energy, can still fire her missiles. Her A ability is Imperial Sigil. Lyra fires out a sigil that deals both AOE damage to enemies and healing to allies. The damage is based on crystal power, and the heal is based off her max health, meaning getting crucible is a vital option for a support Lyra. When the sigil disappears or upon reactivation, the sigil explodes dealing a burst of healing or damage (again based on max health or crystal power). Her B ability is bright bulwark. She creates a region around her surrounded by walls. In that region, enemies are snared (cannot use movement abilities or items), slowed, and take crystal damage. Although it is commonly misconception that only the walls apply this effect, the entire region inside the circle creates the effect. However, if an enemy touches a wall, the wall will reapply or apply the effect, thereby refreshing the duration. Her ultimate is arcane passage. Lyra teleports to an area, while creating a portal. Both allies and enemies can use this portal. However, allies can use it immediately while enemies have to wait a few second to use it.
Now that I am done explaining her abilities. I will write down my arguments.
1. Her heroic perk makes it near impossible to escape. If the Lyra buys attack speed items, the slow will be applied and reapplied countless times, making escaping or engaging very difficult.
2. Her missile damage and range are huge for a non-skillshot support. Lyra has the highest range (6.8) in the game, tied with adagio. As long as she started basic attack her missile is guaranteed to hit. Also, the missile damage can do quite a bit of damage, easily out-damaging Ringo in the early game, even though Ringo is considered to be a strong early game hero. Even though Ringo does more damage, Lyra can attack at a farther range, so Ringo will be dead when he reaches her.
3. Her imperial sigil heal and range is very high. her imperial sigil can heal 110 damage per second with a 150 detonate heal without health items. One crucible enhanced sigil can bring a near dead kestrel to full health. Although Adagio's heal can be stronger, there are sixth reasons why Lyra's heal is stronger. First Lyra's heal has a higher range, making her able to bail her allies out of the most sticky situations without putting herself at risk. Second, it is AOE heal. If Adagio heals 300 health, Lyra can heal about 240 health for ALL of her teammates,making it much more effective. Third, Lyra's total heal is much higher including detonation. Fourth, Lyra's heal grants movement speed, proving a miniature warhorn. Fifth, the sigil does a considerable amount of damage over time, discouraging enemies to continue chasing. Sixth, Adagio's heal is based off CP, while Lyra's heal is based off health. To make Adagio's heal significant, he has to buy a CP item which will make less tanky, and have one less option to buy a support item that can help his team. However, most support items already have health in them, so Lyra's build can be more tanky and better for a support.
4. Her bright bulwark is definitely not balanced. It literally shuts down all movement abilities, basically a third of the entire roster of vainglory heroes. some unfortunate heroes can't use a single ability while snared, eg. Ardan. if you get caught in a Bulwark, you will be a sitting duck. Only a few heroes can avoid this snare. Even if you dodge her initial pulse, you will still be caught in the wall and snared.
5. She only has around 2 counters. Taka can dodge her bulwark but he cannot stop her from escaping using a sigil or her ultimate. Ringo isn't affected by her bulwark, but struggles against her range.
Some statistics also show that Lyra is really OP. In week 1 of the Evil Eight, which is the strongest teams in NA and EU go against each other in tournaments, the win rate of Lyra in the EU was 100%. Lyra also featured the highest ban rates in both regions, showing that the best players are aware of the power Lyra possess. Able to stop an attack in a few seconds, heal, and chase proves her to be OP hero. According to broken myth, which is a prestigious vainglory website, put Lyra as the strongest laner and support as of 1.19. Also, the tier list changed drastically because of the need for a counter on Lyra. The second plane laner is Vox, as he can apply more pressure to Lyra than any other laner can at the moment.The second place support is Phinn because he is affected significantly by her bulwark. Taka claimed the number one spot, only because of her counter against Lyra. Lyra has even changed the meta, which is now team comps that focus on keeping your team alive as long as possible. Guess who does that the best? Lyra.
In conclusion, Lyra is OP because of her insane abilities, the amount of utility she brings, and her synergy with her items and heroes.
[btw this is technically my first debate so I apologize for any mistakes I make. Hope I didn't disappoint Con! :) ]
My objective is to prove Lyra can be defeated.
1. Crucible/Reflex Block: These two items are probably the 2 most needed items in a game with Lyra. For Lyra to effectively use her B, she needs to be in the range of heroes. It's common sense that she will use it right at the start of a team fight when the heroes are near, so it is easily predictable for the team support to use a crucible, or for laners and junglers to use their personal reflex blocks. After the B is blocked, heroes like Reim, Glaive, Krul, Skye, Blackfeather, and many more using their abilities(CP heroes) and basic attacks(WP heroes) can destroy Lyra.
2. Silences/Stuns: This is also an effective way of defeating Lyra. Preventing her from even using her abilities is a perfect solution as she relies a lot upon her abilities as she is a CP hero. Stuns are also a solution as it stop Lyra's basic attacks and her abilities which leaves her completely vulnerable to enemy heroes.
3. Atlas Pauldron: To even further disable Lyra, after countering her B, Roamers can get an Atlas to slow down Lyra's basic attacks as well, leaving her dependent on 1 ability: Her A.
4. Burst Damage: Tension Bow heroes can dish out large chunks of damage every couple of seconds. Along with this, Lance's A as WP and Saw's A as CP do horrendous amounts of damage.
Heroes that can defeat her or help defeat her:
1. Adagio(WP): Adagio weapon power is extremely dangerous if you've ever seen him in a BR. He has the same range as Lyra (6.8)and with his basic attacks can remain a safe distance away from Lyra's B, and attack faster than her with a Tornado Trigger which is a part of his build. Along with his A, which can heal other heroes, and his B which can buff himself or others, he has his Ult which can stun heroes. He is a truly dangerous hero in front of Lyra.
2. Taka(WP): Taka's Ult is faster than Lyra's B as stated in my source. Along with a reflex block, WP Taka's basic attacks will melt Lyra. A standard build for WP Taka is Sorrowblade and then Bonesaw along with boots and armor.The weapon power damage is 150 and 30 respectively. Along with 40% increase of attack speed and armor shredding, it doesn't take long for Lyra to be killed.
3. Catherine(Roam/CP): CP Catherine is an extremely dangerous hero. Her stuns (A) do an incredible amount of damage and at the same time stops the enemy hero from doing anything at all. Her B is extremely powerful as it "Activates a pulsating bubble that burns nearby enemies and deflects damage above 77 (+7 per level) to nearby enemies. Each deflection reduces the shield duration by 0.5 second, and if it's overdrived the damage reflected by this ability is increased by 25%. This ability can melt heroes that are dishing out enormous damage like Lyra."Her Ult silences and damages all heroes. Playing her CP makes her extremely dangerous as all her abilities do immense amounts of damage.
Lance's A stuns heroes as well as doing a ton of damage as WP. Along with this, if his B is overdrived and activated, it ignores all negative buffs and reduces the damage dealt to him. Also, he is extremely tanky as he is designed as a Roam hero, making him hard to gank in lane and extremely tanky during team fights.
Celeste's high damage early game is key in keeping Lyra away from her farm which allows her to get built. Celeste's B also helps stun Lyra which is highly effective combined with her A. Her burst damage is extremely good as well, because using her A at in the same place twice does extra damage. Along with that her A provides vision in bushes and other areas, reducing the need for flares by the team support.
Reim is notorious for being one of the best junglers in the game especially against melee heroes. Reim's A does pre-damage and post-damage as well, making him a great fighter in the middle of a team fight. Along with his A, Reim has his B with roots the hero in place. His Ult does crystal damage and slows heroes as well. In addition to all of this, Reim's basic attacks give him fortified health making it extremely difficult to kill him Using his A after reflex blocking the B from Lyra is super effective especially when Reim has a Broken Myth and Eve of Harvest.
Saw CP is extremely dangerous, as all of his abilities do enormous amounts of damage. Saw's A, also known as "the shank" can deal anywhere from 200-1000 crystal damage. Saw's B slows enemies and damages them at the same time. Saw's Ult, although slow, can release extreme amounts of burst damage.
Her silences are super effective
CP Kestrel's A chunks heroes, and her B followed by A chunks as well as stuns if the hero is standing in the mist
Phinn's Ult can bring Lyra out of her B if necessary. His B gives fortified health to allied heroes around him, and his A can stun heroes for a short period of time.
I have named 10/25 heroes that can somehow stop Lyra, along with several items that can help negate some of her abilities.
I look forward to Pro's rebuttals of my arguments and closing statements as I will do for his.
(Pro....may I ask what rank you are in the game just out of curiosity?)
Now to business...
Rebuttals of Con's arguments:
1. the problem about using a crucible/reflex block is that it can only block the pulse. After that one time use, the walls stays. If you use a crucible inside the bulwark, Lyra can walk out of the bulwark. If the enemies continue to give chase, they will be snared by the wall. Also, most players don't have the reflexes to block an near instantaneous ability.
2. Most stuns are either skillshots or movement based. If it is a skillshot, Lyra can either dodge by walking (most stuns are very slow, eg. Celeste's core collapse) or teleporting away. If the stun is movement based, she can bulwark, or teleport. Also, if you stun a support Lyra, what are you going to do about the other two carries. Fight a support Lyra is a dilemma, should I focus her and do nothing against that CP Vox with his ultimate? Or ignore her, and get all of our abilities removed.
There are only two silences in the game, so banning and priority picking can solve the problem. If in casual play , Lyra can either dodge via ultimate, or use a crucible. The only silence that lasts long is Catherine's, which is easy to anticipate and avoid.
3. Are you talking about Cp Lyra or support Lyra? If CP Lyra, she can just use her A to do around 200 damage, which is still a lot. CP Lyra can also prevent you from applying the atlas her via bulwark and/or ult..If you are are going against a support, it is highly advisable to use it instead on the carries, as they will mow you down when you apply the effect on her.
4. I admit burst damage is one the biggest issues for a Lyra. However, the problem about burst comps is that their effectiveness drops significantly in the late game. At late game, Tension bow does nothing even against a Lyra. Also the abilities you mentioned in your example can be stopped by her bulwark. Lance's A is easily dodgeable.
1. I was expecting a crystal adagio example which much more effective in the current meta. His heal going weapon power does nothing. Also, CP Lyra can still poke him with her imperial sigil. Remember CP Lyra isn't just the basic attack, her practically spammable sigil also does a lot of damage. Even in BR, I still don't think that Wp adagio is good because he has no movement ability, hence no escape from constant ganks and Lyra's slow.
2. If they started the ability at the same time, yes she can't block X-retsu. However, there is a simple solution, after the x-retsu, bulwark and ult out. Now, you got a trapped or snared taka in the bulwark with only one way to escape! If he uses your portal, you should be gone already. Also, her imperial sigil prevents enemy takas from approaching her. In one of my sources, the writer specifically uses the sigil as a ward against heroes, as it provides vision and most players don't want to walk over that time bomb. Another trick Lyra players use is to portal into the team fight, bulwark, then teleport out. Since she started her bulwark first, taka can't use X-restu. In a 1v1, taka will melt lyra. However, Lyra has a few advantages. One, Taka is squishier. Two, Taka's invisibility is useless against her. Three, in a team fight, takas don't last long as they are generally weak in the late game.
3. Catherine is only effective at close range. If she tries to use her only source of damage (her stun), she will be stopped by the bulwark. Her B is only good against burst damage, which is different from Lyra's basic attack. Have you ever wondered why you can't stop petal from melting you even if you have that shield on? Catherine's shield only reflect high amounts of damage at once. The ability Lyra has that allows Catherine's shield to be effective is her sigil, which should not be used in close range.
4. Lance's A ROOTS heroes. The key difference is that when you are stunned, you can't do anything except activate items. When you are rooted, you can still fight back. Besides, it is still stopped by her bulwark and is fairly easy to dodge and punish. Lance's B can block her bulwark but keeps him in place for a second. The shield only protects him, not his teammates, so he either has to wait for teammates, or dive in and get himself killed. You also mention Wp lance to be the threat, but then you mention that he is played as support. So what is your argument?
5. Celeste's can't keep Lyra away from her farm because Lyra's can do a strategy called hugging the turret. Since she has the highest range, she can wait for the minion wave to come close to the turret. then, she "hugs" the turret, farming safely. If Lyra's get's harassed by celeste, she can heal herself can be ready for another fight in no time. Celeste does not provide vision for scout traps , so most teams buy flares anyways.
6. Reim is good only against melee heroes. He is actually considered a weak laner due to his low mobility. In broken myth's tier list, he is put in 8th place, just one place ahead of the notoriously bad "throwzo". Reim's A is easy to dodge because of its speed and telegraphed position. It is impossible for Reim to reach Lyra, as Lyra can dodge his A easily while kiting with her initial basic attacks.
7. The only thing SAW has against Lyra is his B. His A is stopped by the bulwark, and his C has his basic attack range which is smaller than her basic attack range. If he hits her with the B, she can heal up, and is ready for the next fight.
8. The silence is not a problem, because it only lasts for a small amount of time. His ults damage can be mitigated by crucible or healing.
9. CP kestrel's 4 attacks are not enough against a healing Lyra. After her 4 attacks, she can't do anything.To counter the B, you can buy flares, or just not give chase and let the mist clear.
10. If Lyra's is pulled, she can teleport out while kiting with her missiles. Her range keeps Phinn at a distance, preventing him from using his stun effectively.
In conclusion, Lyra is OP because of her small amount of counters. Most of the counter's that Con mentioned can be easily mitigated, or even completely canceled because of her bulwark, her escape, and her healing. Trust me, if she has a 100% win rate in a competitive scene and people saying that it is impossible for SEMC to not nerf her in 1.20, she is definitely a broken champion. (The source is a video where even though the player is playing support Lance, there is a moment in the video where they say Lyra should be nerfed in the upcoming update.)
I wish Con good luck on his rebuttals, and if he wants to, can add me as a friend on vainglory.
Her heroic perk depends on how close the hero is in proximity to her. If the hero is far from her they can just use a reflex block to block the slow and then use boots to run away. If the hero is in a close proximity WP heroes like Ringo can effectively. Even if she uses her B, Ringo can just reflex block and continue to stutter step the crap out of Lyra. At most the slow is annoying, but no where close to killing. The problem with her heroic perk is that she easily runs out of energy which prevents her from using her abilities.
Against a Lyra, it is wise to be aggressive early game as her abilities take a long time to cool down. SAW can bully her with his basic attacks in Lane if he's weapon power. The B has no effect on SAW's basic attacks, and early game, she won't have her Ult to escape those basic attacks. With Ringo if you can effectively gain his Lucky Shots every minion kill and use them on Lyra early game, she will have to turret farm which is very hard with Lyra early game. That early in the game, her basic attacks are extremely slow, so saying "Ringo will be dead when he reaches her," is extremely unreliable. Alon with that, her basic attacks don't do as much damage, because most Lyra's build a Swift Shooter or Energy Battery first. These items do not deal crystal damage at the beginning. So being aggressive is a must early game.
A major flaw in Lyra's A is that heroes can just move out of the range within a second. At the same time, it has no affect against tanky heroes like Lance. SAW can also use his A to run out of the range as well. All heroes can also effectively use their boots to run out of the range of the A. As for Adagio, his A gives health the second he does it unlike Lyra, who's is over time unless immediately detonated. However detonating leaves her without her A and extra boost, along with her extra heal. Pro's fifth point has been refuted. That heroes can just move out of the range. Most Adagios go CP Lane or Jungle so they can heal and buff teammates like SAW or Ringo. Along with that, Adagio's Ult is not affected by her B, doing ton of damage and stunning if CP. Along with his range Lane Adagio can also poke with his A healing minions and doing damage to Lyra.
I have already argued that heroes can use reflex blocks or crucible to block her pulse. Even if she teleports out, enemy heroes can follow the portal out negating the entire B.
Rebuttal 5: I have given a ton of heroes that can beat her. Especially Adagio, Taka, Catherine, Vox, Lance and Celeste.
Rebuttal 6: That was only the first week of EU. Now there are even more accurate stats available. There was a 71.43% win rate in NA proving that she isn't overpowered. For EU it was slightly higher at 73.33%. I have no doubt that she is a strong hero....however there is a difference between strong and overpowered. Strong means she can be beaten, but overpowered doesn't based on the definition I provided for this debate.
Arguments of Con's that are faulty or hasn't refuted
-She only has 2 counters(I have given many heroes)
-My opponent concedes that she is burstable early game which leads to complete shutdown of farm
-Lyra's Teleport(In and out): This is faulty because enemy heroes can also use the portal to get out of the B
-Con's arguments rely upon her escaping and healing, when during a team fight this is extremely fatal for allies
-My opponent continuously uses the Bulwark argument and never considers a reflex block
-My opponents argument about Reim is faulty because he's in jungle and during team fights is murderous. He argues that she would win in a 1v1 which happens rarely
-Evil 8 Stats: Pro's stats were unreliable as they were for only 1 week out of a possible of 6.
-She is easily gankable by say glaive
Conclusion: In conclusion, Pro has failed to prove that Lyra is overpowered meaning she can defeat anyone, which I have proven is false with the Evil 8 stats and heroes and strategies that do well against her. I agree that she is strong, but she is not overpowered which was the topic of the debate.
For all of these reasons, I strongly urge a Con ballot for this debate. Thank You!
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