The Instigator
TheInterlang
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
TheCommonMan
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Veganism is a scam and waste.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
TheCommonMan
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/22/2014 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,711 times Debate No: 46494
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

TheInterlang

Pro

1. There are some nutrients that are found in meat, but not in vegetables. Examples are heme-iron, vitamin B12, DHA, and creatine. These are essential for body and brain function.

I used to know a vegetarian boy who has mental problems. His parents to this day stil don't know what is causing it. I think it's the lack of meat.

Being a meat eater is the lesser of the two evils. Would you rather know that some pig is being killed for your health, or know that you (or your kids) will be in the doctor's office with preventable disorders?

2. Vegan food is processed food. People have complained about how blueberry muffins contain fake blueberries, and most Wasabi is just horseradish dyed green. Yet no one cares if a company passes off astronaut paste as "meat", passes off almond-flavored water as "milk", or passes off artificial goop as "eggs".

3. There is no such thing as a vegan. Drywall, the microphone in your cell phone, medications, and even tennis racket stringss contain animal products.

If you want to live to Peta's standards, you must give up leather products (even if it is a byproduct), protest animal experimentation (even if it is a cure for cancer), protest all forms of animal entertainment (even movies with dogs in them), and protest pets (even seeing-eye dogs.)
TheCommonMan

Con

I accept.

Now, let’s look at the resolution.

“Veganism is a scam and waste.”

Since I am con, I have two main duties. First, I must show that veganism isn’t a scam. Secondly, I must show that it isn’t completely a waste and it does have positives. Since my opponent also posted some arguments against veganism, I will also put rebuttals against his claims.

I will now define some things.

Veganism: When someone eats no animal or dairy products at all.

Scam: A dishonest scheme; a fraud.

Waste: Use or expend to no purpose.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA): An American animal rights organization.

I will offer contentions and rebuttals starting next round. I wish my opponent good luck.
Debate Round No. 1
TheInterlang

Pro

Reasons why veganism is a scam and waste:

1. Veganism does NOT reduce the numbers of animals killed. Any thinking person could realize that (1) you didn't kill the animal and (2) the animal was killed long before you order your burger/ buy your steak. It does nothing in terms of reducing the numbers of animals killed. If anything, it wastes perfectly good meat.

2. Let's suppose veganism DID save animals. Well, in that case, it is impossible to live an animal-free lifestyle. Harvesting vegetables and grains inevitably kills insects and worms. Many vegans reject honey, proving they consider bees to be an animal. Not to mention, it is virtually impossible to be a PETA vegan, who doesn't even use anything with animals.

images.elephantjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/gmPbL.jpg

That infographic sums it up. There is no such thing as a vegan, and there is definitely no such thing as a PETA vegan.

3. Overstated health benefits. Though you can live as a vegan, you may not have the same quality of health. There are some nutrients only found in meat, or which meat is the best source.

authoritynutrition.com/5-brain-nutrients-in-meat-fish-eggs/
www.mnwelldir.org/docs/nutrition/meat.htm

Zinc, creatine, B-12, etc. Sure, there are supplements, but supplements are unnatural, expensive, and probably come from an animal anyway. Vegan "meats", "milk", and "eggs" are just a feel-good euphemism for PROCESSED FOODS. You are eating chemically treated soy, loaded with thousands of unpronounceable chemicals.

Risks of soy:
www.wnd.com/2006/12/39253/
www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mercola/soy-health_b_1822466.html

Carrageenan (thickening agent in almond milk.)
www.thekitchn.com/why-i-stopped-drinking-almond-milk-started-drinking-regular-milk-again-197085

As you can see, eating flesh is the lesser of the two evils. Would you rather hear that some cow lost its life, or see you or a friend (or your child!) in a hospital with anemia? Don't think of it as "gross" and "cruel". If you saw what food looks like in your stomach, your skin under a microscope, or where your poop goes after you flush it, you will realize how "gross" and "cruel" nature is. C'est la vie! It is not war or Holocaust. The animals weren't killed in a sadisic ritual.

Real meat should only have one ingredient, meat. Same with milk and eggs. I have a conspiracy theory that the vegan food industry is really just a cover of the processed food industry. They want your money. They don't care about your health.

As a general rule of thumb, it is best to stay "closer to the farm" when eating food.
TheCommonMan

Con

Argument #1: Veganism Isn’t a Scam

Part of the resolution my opponent came up with states that Veganism is a scam. However, it’s easy to conclude that Veganism isn’t a scam. By definition, a scam is a dishonest and fraudulent scheme (paraphrasing from original definition). Veganism is when someone eats no animal or dairy products at all. There’s nothing dishonest about being a Vegan. Vegans are simply people who have chosen not to eat meat or dairy. It’s not like someone controls Veganism and is ripping off all people who are vegans. In the same way, Veganism is also not fraudulent. Overall, my opponent’s claim that veganism is a scam is clearly not true.


Argument #2: Veganism Isn’t a Complete Waste

My opponent claims that Veganism is a waste. By saying that, my opponent says that there is not one purpose of positive thing attached with Veganism (paraphrasing from original definition of waste). However, there are positive things that are attached to being a Vegan. The following is a short list of some positives of being a vegan.

a. Not eating dairy and meats lowers the amount of saturated fats taken in. Therefore, cardiovascular health and other aspects of health would improve by becoming a Vegan.
b. A diet rich in whole grains would lower your blood pressure. This is another example of how Veganism can improve your health.
c. Reduction in dairy, meat, and eggs often results in fewer allergy symptoms. Many vegans report much fewer congestion problems.

Now remember, my task isn’t to show that Veganism is better that any other diet. My task, according to the resolution, it to show that there are benefits to Veganism and that Veganism isn’t a waste. I have achieved that by showing positive things about Veganism.

I will now respond to some of my opponent’s claims. I will only respond to some of them, and I will respond to the rest of them in my final round. The reason for this is because the character limit is too small for me to fully respond to all of my opponent’s rebuttals.

Rebuttal #1: Health of Vegans vs. Non-Vegans

My opponent makes many claims about the health benefits of being a Non-Vegan and the health risks of being a Vegan. Let’s take a look at some of these claims.

“There are some nutrients that are found in meat, but not in vegetables. Examples are heme-iron, vitamin B12, DHA, and creatine. These are essential for body and brain function”

“Vegan food is processed food”

“Overstated health benefits. Though you can live as a vegan, you may not have the same quality of health. There are some nutrients only found in meat, or which meat is the best source.”

“Zinc, creatine, B-12, etc. Sure, there are supplements, but supplements are unnatural, expensive, and probably come from an animal anyway. Vegan "meats", "milk", and "eggs" are just a feel-good euphemism for PROCESSED FOODS”

My opponent can cite specific health risks for Vegans and health benefits for Non-Vegans (which my opponent has). In the same way, I can cite health benefits for Vegans and health risks for Non-Vegans. I have already cited health benefits for Vegans. Now, I will cite some heal risks for Non-Vegans.

a. Some meats can cause Cardiovascular Disease.
b. Eating meat (specifically beef) can give you Mad Cow Disease.
c. Eating meat increases the risk of developing Alzheimer’s.

So, in the same way my opponent can cite health facts to back his claims, I can do the same thing. However, that’s not the point of the debate. My objective is to show that veganism isn’t a scam nor is it a waste. I have shown both of those things to be true. Hence, my opponent’s health facts aren’t relevant.

Rebuttal #2: No Such Thing as True Vegans?

My opponent claims multiple times that it is impossible to truly live a Vegan life.

“There is no such thing as a vegan. Drywall, the microphone in your cell phone, medications, and even tennis racket stringss contain animal products”

“If you want to live to Peta's standards, you must give up leather products (even if it is a byproduct), protest animal experimentation (even if it is a cure for cancer), protest all forms of animal entertainment (even movies with dogs in them), and protest pets (even seeing-eye dogs.)"

“…it is impossible to live an animal-free lifestyle. Harvesting vegetables and grains inevitably kills insects and worms. Many vegans reject honey, proving they consider bees to be an animal. Not to mention, it is virtually impossible to be a PETA vegan, who doesn't even use anything with animals”

Not much to talk about here. First off, these are just more statements that are unrelated to the resolution, and I have held up my end of the resolution. Besides that, Veganism is mainly about not eating meats and dairy due to the fact that those foods come from animals. Some Vegans believe that people shouldn’t use any products with animals in them, such as drywall and medications as my opponent states. However, not all do. It’s mainly about not eating animal products. So, my opponent’s claim that it is impossible to live a Vegan life is false.


Conclusion:

I have completely defended my side of the resolution. I have shown why Veganism isn’t a scam nor is it a waste. I have also shot down some of my opponent’s arguments. In my final round, I will respond to the claims that my opponent has made that I didn’t respond to yet, as well as claims my opponent will make in round 3. It is also possible that I will build upon my arguments. In my opponent’s final argument, my opponent must show why my contentions and my rebuttals are false. I wish my opponent the best of luck.

Sources:
Debate Round No. 2
TheInterlang

Pro

Most of the risks from eating meat products come from the fact that we as Americans eat too much meat. In moderation, meat is a great source of many nutrients.

Veganism is a scam since it is cleverly worked out by propaganda organizations, like PETA. They use scare tactics. They tried everything from comparing meat eaters to the holocaust, to scaring growing children away from drinking milk. If you have heard of the "Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine", don't listen to them. They are affiliated with PETA.

Vegans use the "point A to point Z" logic when describing the health of eating meat. They first tell you the risks of eating too much meat, and then they tell you that you shouldn't eat meat at all. A similar argument:
"I had a friend who drive off a cliff at 85 miles per hour. Therefore, you should ride a bike."

Some lies that vegan organizations have told:
- Humans are vegan by evolution.
This story circulated around the internet is based on the assumption that there are only two types of animal; carnivore and herbivore. We are omnivores. Our anatomy is halfway between a carnivore and an herbivore. Our appendix, which is needed to be an herbivore, is completely useless. Herbivores use it as a second stomach to break down cellulose.

- Humans are the only primate that eats meat or hunts.
Again, not true. Chimpanzees are known to hunt as well.

- But humans have to COOK the food!
Have you ever wondered why animals in captivity outlive those in the wild? It's the cooked food. We can eat raw meat if we want, but it is worse for our health. "We're the only species" is a weak argument. After all, we are the only species that debates online.

- Vegan is healthier.
Perhaps for a "detox" or temporary diet, or if your heart is naturally bad. But veganism is a poor decision for most people, a bad decision for athletes and armymen, and a terrible decision for rapidly growing teens. I already cited some articles on the benefits of being an omnivore.

You then end up donating money to PETA and quack-doctors, and spending more money on artificial foods like tofu. How is that not a scam?

Veganism is a waste because all it does is waste meat.

1. The consumer didn't kill the animal.
2. The animal wasn't killed by the request of the consumer. It was already dead when it was shipped to the store.
3. Vegans do not make a big dent in the "supply and demand" model. Unless Obama made it mandatory, veganism will not make any change on the number of animals killed.
4. If the already dead cows are not eaten, they are wasted.
5. Therefore, the cows died in vain, and vegans are immoral.

Many of the articles for "veganism saves animals" come from biased vegan websites, and not from reputable news.
TheCommonMan

Con

Rebuttal #1: Pointless Statements

My opponent has stated many things that are irrelevant to meeting his resolution. Here is a brief response to all of them.

“I used to know a vegetarian boy who has mental problems. His parents to this day still don't know what is causing it. I think it's the lack of meat.”

My opponent produces a theory, but it has no evidence or data to support it. Furthermore, there’s no scientific research to show that mental retardation and veganism are linked. Even if my opponent would’ve showed that he is correct (which he didn’t), it still doesn’t show that veganism is a scam or a waste. Since that is what he must do, this statement doesn’t support his resolution.

“Being a meat eater is the lesser of the two evils. Would you rather know that some pig is being killed for your health, or know that you (or your kids) will be in the doctor's office with preventable disorders?”

Once again, this isn’t related to the resolution. This is a statement on why one should not like veganism. However, it doesn’t show why veganism is a scam or a waste, which is my opponent’s job.

“Most of the risks from eating meat products come from the fact that we as Americans eat too much meat. In moderation, meat is a great source of many nutrients.”

Same thing, not related to the resolution or my opponent’s duty.

“Vegans use the ‘point A to point Z’ logic when describing the health of eating meat. They first tell you the risks of eating too much meat, and then they tell you that you shouldn't eat meat at all”

Same thing, not related to the resolution or my opponent’s duty.

Overall, my opponent has made several statements as to why veganism is inferior to other diets, but hasn’t defended his side of the resolution.


Rebuttal #2: Same Amount of Animals Killed/Wasted Meat

My opponent claims that veganism is a waste due to the fact that the amount of animals killed remains the same and meat becomes wasted. Here are some quotes my opponent made.

“Veganism does NOT reduce the numbers of animals killed. Any thinking person could realize that (1) you didn't kill the animal and (2) the animal was killed long before you order your burger/ buy your steak. It does nothing in terms of reducing the numbers of animals killed. If anything, it wastes perfectly good “

“Veganism is a waste because all it does is waste meat”

To conclude, my opponent is under the impression that even with veganism, animals still get slaughtered and meat goes to waste. However, this is false. Roughly 2.5% of the United States population is vegan, and another 5% is vegetarian. That means that 92.5% of the US population still eats meat. So, meat does not go to waste due to veganism, considering there are many people still willing to purchase and consume meat products.

It’s important to note that once again, this argument that my opponent made didn’t support his side of the resolution. It might show that veganism is somewhat (but not completely) wasteful. However, since I presented reasons why veganism is useful, I have held up my side of the resolution and showed that veganism isn’t a complete waste. Remember, my opponent must show that veganism is a complete waste to meet his side of the resolution. Also, I have showed why this argument showing that veganism is a waste is false. Therefore, this argument doesn’t show that veganism is a waste. This argument didn’t prove that veganism is a scam. Overall, this argument is invalid.

Rebuttal #3: Is Veganism a Scam?

My opponent has made several claims as to why Veganism is a scam. Let’s take a look at these claims.

“Veganism is a scam since it is cleverly worked out by propaganda organizations, like PETA. They use scare tactics. They tried everything from comparing meat eaters to the holocaust, to scaring growing children away from drinking milk”

Since my opponent called PETA a propaganda organization, let’s look at the definition of propaganda. By definition, propaganda is information used to promote a certain point of view. Basically, it’s advertising for veganism. The specific scare tactics you mention, in the same way, are all advertising techniques. Advertising techniques aren’t scams. They’re simply reasons why PETA and other vegan organizations feel the general public should be vegan. There’s nothing about that that leads one to believe that veganism is a scam.

My opponent also brings up multiple “lies” that vegan organizations tell. Let’s look at each one.

“Vegan is healthier”

My opponent claims this is a lie told by vegan organizations. However, since this is an opinion statement, it can’t possibly be a lie. Plus, I have given reasons why veganism might be healthier than non-veganism in round 2.

“But humans have to COOK the food!

Have you ever wondered why animals in captivity outlive those in the wild? It's the cooked food. We can eat raw meat if we want, but it is worse for our health. "We're the only species" is a weak argument. After all, we are the only species that debates online.”
This is completely unrelated to my opponent’s objective of proving that veganism is a scam or a waste. My opponent’s explanation of this “lie” is also very confusing to comprehend.

“Humans are vegan by evolution”

Yes, by definition, humans are omnivores. As omnivores, we can eat both meat and non-meat. However, we can also choose to eat only one. So, it makes sense why one can be considered “vegan by evolution”, even if it isn’t completely true. Therefore, this is not a lie, but a badly delivered argument for veganism.

“Humans are the only primate that eats meat or hunts”

While my opponent is correct in saying that this is a lie and that apes do hunt, it doesn’t really show that veganism is a scam. Suppose one vegan organization makes this claim. This doesn’t automatically discredit the integrity of other vegan organizations or veganism in general. Therefore, it’s illogical to conclude that because one vegan organization claimed that only humans hunt, that veganism is a scam.

One thing worth mentioning is that my opponent doesn’t cite specific times where these “lies” were made by a vegan organization. He just claims that these statements were made by vegan organizations, but doesn’t show when or where. That automatically makes all of my opponent’s claims of lying vegan organizations distrust-worthy.

Conclusion:
My opponent has made several claims which don’t support his side of the resolution. My opponent has also made some weak claims that defend his resolution, but I have shot them down. In addition, I shot down even his irrelevant claims. I have also built my case as to why veganism isn’t a scam or a waste. I would like to thank my opponent and everyone who took the time to read this.


Sources:
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by TheCommonMan 3 years ago
TheCommonMan
@TheInterlang

In its' simplest form, a strawman is a misrepresentation of the original topic at hand or the other person's argument.
Posted by TheInterlang 3 years ago
TheInterlang
Can someone explain what a strawman is?
Posted by Hematite12 3 years ago
Hematite12
Pro is simply uninformed and strawmanning.

I don't feel like addressing all of his points, but i think his claim that not buying meat wont lower the meat that is produced statement. It's like he never learned supply and demand in economics.

Pro, the more meat that is in demand, the more meat will be supplied. If everyone stopped buying meat, no more meat would be produced. Simple as that.

Also, meat products are FAR more expensive than non-animal products, a fact which he is either ignorant of or intends to ignore. Within 100 years humanity will have to give up almost all of its consumption of animal products to even sustain its massive population. Huge amounts of water and food are wasted to make animal products, far, far less is required for non animal, so it will be the food of the future.

Scientists are working on high quality artificial meat to solve this problem of resources while still providing some of the benefits and tastiness of animal products :)

I myself am not a vegan, but I think it is an admirable thing to be that we will all have to embrace in time.
Posted by Liagiba 3 years ago
Liagiba
The thing is... If you don't know much about the food vegans eat and why then your comments are based on what exactly?
myself as a vegan, I don't eat much of the food that is described as being "processed" Instead I find cheaper, and healthier alternatives to these. When you eat meat you're consuming an unnatural amount of protein that can harmfully effect the human body.
Also when animals are kept in filthy, small, cramped conditions they are fed food stuffed with chemicals in order to make them bigger faster so these people can make as much money as they can. without caring about the pain that animal is put through. It has been known for cows do die because of the unnatural extra weight of milk and fat she's carrying.
Posted by DrySponge 3 years ago
DrySponge
Being a vegetarian yes being vegan no way !
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Actionsspeak 3 years ago
Actionsspeak
TheInterlangTheCommonManTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro said "There is no such thing as a vegan." In round one, which is obviously wrong.