Debate Rounds (5)
Good people follow the golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Animals qualify as others. They do because they feel like we do. Pain, fear, grief etc.
Meat, dairy and egg eaters don't care about animals. They don't care about what pain they cause on others. As long as they get their bacon, they are fine with animal abuse. They make the same excuses that Nazi's and slave owners made. They say that just because someone is different, they are inferior. That type of mentality is evil. pure evil. Nothing justifies the meat and dairy industry.
The people who do this are not evil at heart. They have just been raised in an evil society. Think about the life of a dairy cow for example.
Lets call her Jane. At birth, Jane is instantly taken from her mother, and imprisoned on a farm where she is fed a nutrition devoid diet.
Eventually, she is tortured via branding. (Yes, applying hot metal to a living being is torture). She also has her ear clipped without painkiller for the sake of identification.
Jane then lives an exhausting life. She is constantly milked for hours on end. She is also raped with bull semen to produce more calves that will be stolen from her. Stress takes a toll on her. After a few years, her productivity begins to decrease. She is then put on a cattle car and begins a miserable trip to a slaughterhouse.
At the slaughterhouse, Jane and her friends are so scared they won't get off the truck. They know what's coming. Their not stupid. the slaughterhouse workers then use cattle prods to force them into the facility where they will each wait for their turn on the killing floor.
Once there, Jane will receive a captive bolt to the head. It's supposed to render her nerves inert but almost always the cows are killed fully feeling and conscious.
She is then hung upside down on a large machine and a slaughterhouse worked slashes her throat and waits for her to bleed to death. After that, Jane is sent to be butchered packaged and shipped to a store or restaurant.
Jane experienced all of that so that we humans can enjoy the taste of cheese or steak. This is the worst holocaust that has ever happened. We slaughter 150 BILLION animals every year.
Veganism is the only compassionate way to live on this planet. Forget the lies and propaganda from the meat and dairy industry. They want money. They don't care about the animals. There is no excuse for this.
Don't even get me started on the health and environmental damage from meat, dairy and eggs.
Feel free to explore that site.
Also, What alternative might you suggest for people that cannot reach their dietary needs from eating plants alone in their part of the world? For example, the typical Mongolians diet consists almost entirely of meat and dairy because agriculture is not sustainable in their region. Would it be a better alternative to let the majority of the Mongolian population to starve to death?
You also have stated that "meat, dairy and egg eaters don't care about animals". "Animal" is such a broad category, are you only talking about animals that humans typically eat? or animals in general? I would like to know what "animals" are being debated here.
I look forward to debating you.
I'm aware that that is a bold claim, but think about it. As children, the first form of hate we are exposed to is when we eat the corpse of a once living being. We are taught to love the puppy and to eat the cow. That is where we learn to discriminate. If we raised a vegan generation, they would treat each other with respect because they treat ALL sentient beings with respect.
As for the Mongolians, I would say that eating meat to not starve is okay. It's a form of self defense. But they need to work on making their economy better until they can import plant based food and it needs to happen fast.
Meat eaters have no consideration for ANY animals besides their pets. There may be exceptions, but for the most part they think that the taste of bacon is more important then the pig's life. Again, an evil and selfish way to live.
Also, humans are biologically herbivores. Starting with our teeth. While we do have canines, so do gorillas and they eat only plants. Our jaws also move side to side in a grinding motion like a cow. Dogs and other carnivores can't do that. They rip and swallow their food. We also have no claws like land bases carnivores always have. Men have nipples without breastfeeding, and we have canines without naturally eating meat.
Second, our intestines are the right length in relation to our torso to be a herbivore.
Third, we have no carnivorous instincts. Most people can't watch slaughterhouse videos like the one I posted above. A bear, being a true carnivore would love to be IN the slaughterhouse. Many humans, who call themselves carnivores can't stand the sight of blood. Many slaughterhouse workers get PTSD. That says a lot about our instincts and about ethics.
tytheguy made a comment about humans eating meat since the dawn of man. He's right, but our early ancestors did it to survive. They had no choice. In the 21st century we do it because it tastes good. There is a huge difference.
You stated "Meat eaters have no consideration for ANY animals besides their pets." And earlier than this you stated " Meat, dairy and egg eaters don't care about animals". So is it all animals, or animals other than pets? Because all animals includes the category of pets (a "pet" can be considered any type of animal). What type of animals do people that eat meat not care about?
Our early ancestors did have a choice, they could have eaten plants like many other animals did. But they ate meat as well as plants, just like what most humans do in modern times. What is the huge difference between eating meat to survive in modern times vs. eating meat to survive in ancient times? If eating to meat to survive is the same in both time periods, then there should not be any exceptions based on when the meat eating took place. In your case, all meat eaters should be equally as "Evil, selfish, and in-compassionate", because that is what you stated as all meat eaters being (ALL being the essential word).
Based on your earlier statements I got the impression that the meat eaters in the "evil, selfish, and in-compassionate" grouping are people that participate in the act of meat eating without acknowledging that the animals being eaten are real animals. But what if a person were to only ate meat that was raised on a farm where the animals had access to big open fields, barns, and green grass. And when it came time to be slaughtered they took one bullet to the head and that was the end of it. Would this person still be evil and selfish? Would they still be leading an in-compassionate life style?
The point I wanted you to focus on was this:
"As children, the first form of hate we are exposed to is when we eat the corpse of a once living being. We are taught to love the puppy and to eat the cow. That is where we learn to discriminate. If we raised a vegan generation, they would treat each other with respect because they treat ALL sentient beings with respect."
That has everything to do with veganism. If people were raised vegan, they would learn that discrimination is wrong. Period. If they never did it to the animals, then why would they do it to each other. In short, vegans are compassionate people. Compassionate people make the world a better place.
To answer your second question, I remind you that my second statement's purpose was to clarify my first statement. Yes, meat eaters care about their pets, but the rest of the billions of animals on this planet are mostly considered useless. There are exceptions, but for the most part, meat eaters don't give a crap about the vast majority of animals.
The difference between our ancestors eating meat and us eating meat is huge and obvious. If they killed something, it could feed them for a week, and is was much more filling than berries. They often had to, especially in winter. In many cases they used the entire animal to sustain their way of life. The Native Americans are a perfect example.
But in the 21st century, we have MANY more options to get our protein from. Beans and rice, nuts, mock meat etc. We don't have to kill animals to put food on the table. If we did, then all vegans would be starving. There are grocery stores all over the place.
You asked if eating free range animals is evil. Yes, of course it is!
By your logic, the Jews working outside their huts, but within the electric fence at any of the concentration camps were treated well. It was a free range Holocaust. By your logic the Nazis who killed Jews by a single bullet to the head weren't evil. The Jew took a bullet to the head and that was the end of it.
Just because you killed someone fast, does not mean it was okay to kill them! If I let some kids play on the playground outside before shooting them I would still be a murderer!
The concept that hurting animals is wrong is very simple. You don't lose anything by becoming vegan. You just stop taking what isn't yours.
Being vegan is actually very easy. You can enjoy all of your favorite foods while being vegan. I have enjoyed delicious vegan burgers, bacon, hot dogs, milk, cheese, chocolate etc. And no one had to suffer and die for it! You can live without hurting animals.
Don't tell me that what we do to animals is right. I've seen the footage. I have heard the screams of the pigs as they are being slaughtered. As these two legged, psychotic things we often call slaughterhouse workers kill them. Have we no mercy. The animals just want to be left alone. They should have that right.
Jane deserves better than to live the life she did. We don't have the right to steal her calves and her milk. We don't have the right to torture her via branding and ear clipping.
Do your research. We rip the testicles off of baby pigs and cut off their teeth. We shred male chicks alive into dog food because they are useless without laying eggs. We slash the throats of billions of animals, or gas them. But according to meat eaters, bacon and burgers makes it all okay. The human race claims to know right from wrong. We obviously don't.
People can respect something and still eat it. The Plains Indian tribes (not all Indians have the same animistic beliefs) respect the spirit of the buffalo, and still eat buffalo.
The difference you are trying to explain between our ancestors and humans living modern times still applies in modern times. Killing a cow will still feed one family for much longer that a pile of vegetables and berries, just like it did in ancient times, even though it was bison being killed not the modern cow. Again, when the killing takes place is not relevant to the purpose of or the act of the killing, it is the same.
I have never disputed the abuse that animals experience in the meat processing industry, it a good reason for not eating factory processed meat. But even if the livestock never went through that process, you still say that eating meat is wrong. The abuse the animals experience is apparently not relevant if your opinion of meat eaters is still the same even if the animals being eaten did not experience that abuse.
I know exactly what animals go through in the meat packing process, that is why I , again, have never disputed the abuse part of your argument. What I have been disputing is the idea that veganism is the only way to live compassionately on this planet, that meat eaters do not love animals, and that all meat eaters are selfish and evil. One can still live compassionately and still eat meat.
I will concede that in this day and age and specifically in America, Canada and Europe it is easier to be vegan, this is because we live in rich countries that have the arable land and the economic power to never have food shortages. It also helps that there is a Whole Foods, Alfalfa's, or Sprouts on every corner. We're are also lucky to have access to grocery stores, a luxury that most people in the world do not have. It is because we live in rich countries that veganism is even an option. Your opinion on eating meat and dairy would most likely be very different if you were living in a country where the options were to eat meat and dairy or starve, like in Mongolia. Veganism is a method just like eating meat is a method, that does not mean that either method is wrong or that the people in either set are evil, selfish, or in-compassionate.
What do you say to people that have vitamin deficiencies or allergies and because of that they cannot reach their dietary needs through plants alone? Like a soy allergy, this would eliminate almost all mock meat and vegan dairy. Daiya is one of the only soy free (and gluten-free, and dairy free) fake dairy products, and I know from personal experience that it is suspiciously plasticy tasting.
Also to your statement of "taught to love the puppy and to eat the cow", in some parts of the world, specifically in China, they eat the puppy and the cow. http://tinyurl.com...
When you say that a cow will feed a family longer than a pile of fruits and veggies you're right. But there is a difference when we have so many different options. Unfortunately, most people choose the violent and abusive carnivore diet when they don't have to. They are doing it for taste. Killing for taste is killing for fun.
Another thing, the abuse animals go through is VERY relevant. The act of painlessly killing an animal is still evil. It is not justified just because others do it in a more barbaric way. The lesser of two evils is still evil. The simple act of depriving a sentient being of their life is abuse. Statistics show that over 90% of the meat in grocery store was from a factory farm.
Odds are, if you eat meat you support animal abuse.
How can a meat eater love an animal that was tortured for the sake of him or her enjoying the taste of the animal's salted corpse. Do you really think that hunters love deer? Would it be considered love if I shot my wife and ate her? Even if it was painless? Meat eaters have never and will never love animals! How is it love to hang a cow upside down and slice it's throat? Think about all the evil things that you admitted to being aware of that we do to animals, and tell me we love them. I dare you.
If meat eaters love animals, then logically Nazi's loved Jews.
Fun Fact: Heinrich Himmler, the man responsible for organizing the holocaust was first a chicken farmer. Figures.
Remember, I have said that eating meat to save yourself from starvation is okay. Since we generally agree on Mongolia, lets set that aside. There is a difference in the "methods." One is harmful and the other is not. The only justification for using the harmful method is to save your own life. No one in America, Canada or Europe should be eating the flesh of once living things. Veganism should be the norm.
To those with a Soy allergy I would say to enjoy the delicious diet of fruits and vegetables while getting protein from rice, beans, nuts and supplements.
The meat and dairy industry is also notorious for environmental destruction. They pollute more air and more water than any other industry. Forests are being cut down to raise soon-to-be slaughtered cows. It takes 20X the land to feed a meat eating society than to feed a vegan society. The industry as a whole is a death industry. They only kill.
More crops are used to feed livestock than to feed people. If we stopped eating meat, we could end world hunger easily from the crops we could now feed starving children. But according to meat eaters, bacon is more important.
Why would any sane person do business with such a destructive industry?
If eating meat is truly evil, as you say, there should be no exceptions. You said that the "methods" differed, again everyone is eating to keep themselves alive. It, again, should not matter where the eating is being done.
I have observed that in general only rich people in rich countries have the time and money to be vegan. There are people who do not have neither the time or the money to be vegan, even in rich countries. All of the dairy, meat, and egg substitutes you mentioned earlier, are more expensive than the actual thing. Nuts are also very expensive. What do you suggest to people that cannot afford those things?
As to your answer about my question concerning vitamin deficiencies. Are you suggesting that people take pills instead of eating what they need to to stay healthy? Where do you think the Vitamin D3 (common vitamin deficiency) that goes into those pills comes from?
Veganism is not the only option in this world and people should not be condemned because they choose a different option.
The raising of live stock does not even make it onto the top ten list for the industries that pollute the most, if you are going to state something like that it needs to be true. http://www.whatagreenlife.com..., I would also like to see some proof of you statement of "More crops are used to feed livestock than to feed people". If you cannot provide proof, both of these points are irrelevant.
There are exceptions for everything. The only time we are allowed to kill another human in our society is self defense. That is an exception. If you eat meat and you aren't starving you are a in the wrong.
In response to your rich vegan argument. I'm a college student who is vegan. You do not have to be rich. Produce is usually super cheap. I actually went to the store and took down all the prices for vegan vs. non vegan food. All the meat was cheaper. The dairy, I will admit was slightly more expensive but it was way healthier. Good health is worth it. Anyway, stopping animal abuse is a good enough reason to pay slightly more for your food.
You can get all of your vitamins and nutrients from a plant based diet. The cow had to get his nutrients from somewhere, and it wasn't meat. Keep in mind, humans are biologically herbivores.
Open the nutrients link.
In the link you wrote in your last argument, one of the top ten polluting industries in the world was listed as "industrial sites." A meat processing plant is an industrial site. And, disgusting as it may sound, most of the pollution comes from the methane emitted from the cow feces. Yes, this is 100% natural, but it has disastrous effects because there are WAY too many cows on this planet thanks to the meat industry. Yes, we feed more crops to animals because there are more farm animals on earth than people. Remember 150 Billion animals per year? Half of those killed are farm animals. The other half are fish. We have to feed the other 75 billion something, and that is where most of our crops go.
The meat industry is also terrible for your diet. Meat is fattening and you can get what you need without that side effect. You are literally eating a dead body. Gross. Milk too. You don't need cow's milk as a human anymore than you need dog milk. That alone gives you no excuse to allow cows to be raped for a drink.
In the end, veganism is the only compassionate way to live on this planet because eating the salted corpse of a murdered living being is the opposite of compassion. Humane killing does not exist. To determine if something is humane, examine if you would want it done to you, even if it is painless.
Making the switch to a vegan lifestyle may seem hard at first, but it soon gets much easier. There is so much suffering in the world. Why add to it? This the only time people like us have had the chance to participate in ending a holocaust. If you love your dog, then why not love cows and pigs and chickens etc. They all just want to live and be free of pain and fear.
Go vegan. At least try it. You really don't lose anything. It may only make a small difference to you, but you will be saving the lives of animals everyday you don't eat them. Slavery was once normal. Just like meat is normal today. Both are wrong. We have to start making the change. We have to help end the suffering. Society's laws are not always morally right. Being vegan is the definition of compassion. Showing love to all creatures should be something to strive for.
It was a pleasure debating you on this topic! Good luck!
Again it may be an option for you to be vegan, but in this debate you were making statements that included the entire population of the world. Veganism is only an option for rich (on a global scale) people in rich countries. Even in rich countries you find people that can only afford to eat what they grow and raise, and cannot afford to buy substitute everything at higher prices. Mock meat is just as expensive as regular meat, if not more. You even stated that regular meat was cheaper and the fake dairy was more expensive. Also, some people don't have the money to pay more to end animal abuse.
Veganism is a method of survival just like meat eating is. There are other ways to live compassionately in this world without being vegan and people that choose those other ways to live are not necessarily evil and selfish, that also does not mean that vegans cannot be evil, selfish and in-compassionate.
Showing love to all things is something that human beings should strive for, but love means different things to different people. Concerning meat eaters; they love meat and animals, and they eat what they love. For you that love is expressed through not eating the animal. It is expressed in different ways but it does not mean that either way is wrong or that either side should be condemned for their choices.
Thank you for your time.
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