The Instigator
stuntman.k
Pro (for)
The Contender
EXOPrimal
Con (against)

Veganism

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/3/2016 Category: Society
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 497 times Debate No: 97603
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (0)

 

stuntman.k

Pro

Lets get something straight. There is something seriously wrong with our society. We have actually turned animals, that think and feel, into sandwiches and coats. What is wrong with us.

Good people follow the golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Animals qualify as others. They do because they feel like we do. Pain, fear, grief etc.

Meat, dairy and egg eaters don't care about animals. They don't care about what pain they cause on others. As long as they get their bacon, they are fine with animal abuse. They make the same excuses that Nazi's and slave owners made. They say that just because someone is different, they are inferior. That type of mentality is evil. pure evil. Nothing justifies the meat and dairy industry.

The people who do this are not evil at heart. They have just been raised in an evil society. Think about the life of a dairy cow for example.

Lets call her Jane. At birth, Jane is instantly taken from her mother, and imprisoned on a farm where she is fed a nutrition devoid diet.

Eventually, she is tortured via branding. (Yes, applying hot metal to a living being is torture). She also has her ear clipped without painkiller for the sake of identification.

Jane then lives an exhausting life. She is constantly milked for hours on end. She is also raped with bull semen to produce more calves that will be stolen from her. Stress takes a toll on her. After a few years, her productivity begins to decrease. She is then put on a cattle car and begins a miserable trip to a slaughterhouse.

At the slaughterhouse, Jane and her friends are so scared they won't get off the truck. They know what's coming. The're not stupid. the slaughterhouse workers then use cattle prods to force them into the facility where they will each wait for their turn on the killing floor.

Once there, Jane will receive a captive bolt to the head. It's supposed to render her nerves inert but almost always the cows are killed fully feeling and conscious.

She is then hung upside down on a large machine and a slaughterhouse worked slashes her throat and waits for her to bleed to death. After that, Jane is sent to be butchered, packaged and shipped to a store or restaurant.

Jane experienced all of that so that we humans can enjoy the taste of cheese or steak. This is the worst holocaust that has ever happened. We slaughter 150 BILLION animals every year.

Veganism is the only compassionate way to live on this planet. Forget the lies and propaganda from the meat and dairy industry. They want money. They don't care about the animals. There is no excuse for this.

Don't even get me started on the health and environmental damage from meat, dairy and eggs.

http://www.adaptt.org.........

Feel free to explore that site.
EXOPrimal

Con

Introduction of Arguments

Animal Lives

A."Jane experienced all of that so that we humans can enjoy the taste of cheese or steak. This is the worst holocaust that has ever happened."

B. Are we reducing Jews to the status of animals, or are we raising animals to status of human? Either way this argument is completely stupid. I hardly have to debunk Jews being equal to animals, because they aren't. Now lets dive into animals being equal to humans.

C. Animals aren't equal to humans, humans are smarter. Animals don't have equal rights of humans. Animals don't live in houses, or have governments.

D. Does the vegan diet save animals? The answer may seem obvious, but it really isn't. If we make all organisms with feeling are equal then agriculture may kill more animals then the meat business.

E. "The animals in this case are mice and moles and rabbits and other creatures that are run over by tractors, or lose their habitat to make way for farming,"(1)

F. "Millions of animals are killed every year, Davis says, to prepare land for growing crops, "like corn, soybean, wheat and barley, the staples of a vegan diet.""(1)

G. Agriculture kills animals too, by being vegan animals die, and if these smaller animals are inferior to cows, then cows are inferior to humans.

E. Animals are not equal to humans, and veganism may save some animals, but it also would raise animal deaths. And if this exchange is worth it then animals have to be inferior to humans, making the human consumption of animals justified.

Health
A. An omnivorous diet is healthier then a vegan diet.

B."Studies show that up to 83% of vegans are deficient in B12. Their vitamin D levels are also 74% lower, and Omega-3 levels 53-59% lower, compared to omnivores."(2)

C. It is much healthier to be on an omnivorous diet, vegans have lower amounts of vitamins D3 and B12, as well as omega threes.

Loss Of Jobs
A. In 2013 there were 482,100 workers in the meat industry(3). Animals also consume a lot of grain and hay, so the people working in these industries would also lose their jobs. This massive job loss isn't worth the lives of animals.


Citations
1.http://abcnews.go.com...
2. https://authoritynutrition.com...
3.https://www.meatinstitute.org...
Debate Round No. 1
stuntman.k

Pro

Firstly, I will bring it to your attention that humans are animals. So technically, yes we are equal to animals. Jew or not, no one is being reduced or raised.

Your argument that because animals don't have rights, houses or governments they are inferior is also a failed logic. We are the ones who deprived them of their rights! I'm saying they should have those rights. And yes they do have houses and many of them have governments within their societies. Dogs, primates, whales, birds, ants, bees etc.

You made the point that agriculture kills animals. Yes, it does, but do you know how much crops the meat industry uses. As humans we slaughter over 90 billion land animals per year. It takes a lot of crops to feed them. Most of our crops are fed to farm animals.

If everyone was vegan, we wouldn't have to grow so much corn. soybean, wheat and barley. It would not only shutdown slaughterhouses, it would reduce the amount of food we have to grow, saving most of the mice and rabbits, while opening a lot of land for use, or to be restored as habitat for wildlife. Again veganism saves more animals and is better for the planet. No meat = less crops = less animal deaths.

www.adaptt.org/killcounter.html

No one is perfect, animals die in the process of agriculture. Just living on this planet causes harm. Vegans are well aware of that. But there is a difference between accidental deaths and having institutions designed to systematically slaughter animals in a holocaust style manner!

An omnivorous diet is in no way healthier than a vegan diet. over 40% of America has a B12 deficiency, 1% are vegan. It's not a vegan problem, making your statement invalid.

You can get vitamin D from things other than animal products. Cereal, tofu, and Dairy Alternatives.

https://www.healthaliciousness.com...

You can also get omega 3 from flour tortillas, bread and cereal.

http://www.webmd.com...

Any vegan who isn't getting what he or she needs to take care of their body, hasn't done their research. Every vitamin you need can be found in plant based foods. Meat, on the other hand, has a lot of negative side effects. It is fattening and contributes to high blood pressure and other diseases. Fruits and veggies don't do that.

Humans are also not omnivorous creatures. Just because we behave like omnivores does not mean that is what we are. We are herbivores! There is overwhelming evidence of this:

1. Our intestines are the right length in relation to our body to be herbivores. Herbivores have intestines 10-12x the length of their bodies, just like us. Carnivore's intestine's are 3-5x the length of the body.

2. We have no claws.

3. Our canines are no excuse. Gorillas have huge canines and only eat plants. Ours are meant to break nuts and bite apples. Men have nipples and don't breastfeed, humans have canines and shouldn't eat meat.

4. Our jaws move side to side in a grinding motion, like a cow. Dogs and other carnivores can't do that.

5. We have no carnivorous instincts. A lot of "meat eaters" can't stand the sight of blood. Babies have no desire to hunt, lion cubs do. many slaughterhouse workers get PTSD.

6. Humans sweat to cool themselves, carnivores pant like a dog.

7. Raw meat makes humans sick, not dogs, lions or any other carnivore/omnivore.

In short, we're herbivores.

http://www.celestialhealing.net...
http://www.waoy.org...
EXOPrimal

Con

Rebuttals
Direct Quotation(R2):"Ffirstly, I will bring it to your attention that humans are animals. So technically, yes we are equal to animals."

Protozoa are also animals, and they are single celled organisms that can't think. Pro's use of this logic is honesty stupid. Animals in the context of this is the second definition in Merriam Webster dictionary:"one of the lower animals as distinguished from human beings"(1). It is ridiculous to say that animals deserve the same rights as humans, I will expand on this later.

Direct Quotation(R2):"Your argument that because animals don't have rights, houses or governments they are inferior is also a failed logic. We are the ones who deprived them of their rights!"

So Pro is telling me that without human intervention humans could make complex governments with a constitution, checks and balances, and a military budget. I don't even need to comment on this.

Direct Quotation(R2):yes they do have houses and many of them have governments within their societies. Dogs, primates, whales, birds, ants, bees etc.

Having a leader/having different leadership positions is not the same as having a government. Governments has complex legislature that passes laws. Also a house is "a building in which people live; residence for human beings."(2). Pro has confused a house and a home. A home is where something lives, and a house is a big structure that us humans build and live in.

Direct Quotation(R2): Most of our crops are fed to farm animals.

If everyone went Vegan the amount of crops would only decrease a small amount, because more would have to be grown to feed the vegan population.

Direct Quotation(R2):"over 40% of America has a B12 deficiency, 1% are vegan. It's not a vegan problem, making your statement invalid."

This is a warped logic, 0.5% of Americans are vegan(3), the numbers are small because there is simply less vegans in America. My data was comparing vegans to omnivores, it doesn't matter if there are foods that give vitamin D, the facts still show that vegans are deficient.

Direct Quotation(R2):"Humans are also not omnivorous creatures. Just because we behave like omnivores does not mean that is what we are. We are herbivores!"

I can concede to this, besides front facing eyes, humans show no signs of being carnivores, but this just may be the biggest reason humans are superior to animals. Humans have managed to successfully completely disregard what nature has put out for us. We have found a way to consume food that we aren't supposed too, animals don't do that. We are masters of ourselves, animals on the other hand follow what nature has put out for them.

C1:Human Superiority
A. To put it simply humans are much superior to animals.

B. Humans are smarter than animals, I don't need to cite any sources to prove, you haven't seen any animals go to the moon without human help have you?

C. Humans are the only organisms with a sense of morality. "Because we, as individuals, are able to draw on the collective knowledge of humanity, in a way no animal can, our individual abilities go way beyond what evolution has endowed us with. Our species is no longer constrained by our biology."(4). Another way that humans are superior to animals, we are the only beings that can make moral decisions.

S1.Evolution

D. Humans can speak, due to a descended larynx.

E. Humans are the only beings that walk completely upright, allowing us to use our hands as tools.

F. Humans are the only organisms that wear clothing, making outside elements like dust stick to the clothing instead of us.

G. Our thumbs are the only thumbs that can reach all the way across our hand to our pinky finger.

H. We are the only only animals that can control fire.

I. All these points prove that humans are much more superior to humans, humans are superior beings. Where we may lack, like speed and flight, we use our superior brains to develop solutions. That is what really sets us apart from our furry friends. Arguing that animals are equal to humans is very irrational. There is a reason that calling someone an "animal" is an insult.

Conclusion
Animals are not equal to humans, humans are much superior. Pro gives animals too much credit, animals may not be dumb, but it is impossible that any animal could achieve what we have achieved. No animals can go over 160 mph for long distances. Animals should not have the same rights as humans, if fact they can't. Animals can't speak, so there goes right of free speech. Animals can't use guns, so there goes right to bear arms.

For these reasons I urge you to vote Con.


Citation
1.https://www.merriam-webster.com...
2.http://www.dictionary.com...
3.http://www.vegetariantimes.com...
4.https://www.psychologytoday.com...
Debate Round No. 2
stuntman.k

Pro

On animal government:

I never said that they would have a congress and a military budget. They do have a social structure. Especially wolves, lions and whales. Don't jump too conclusions.

On crops:

No, if everyone went vegan, the amount of crops being produced would decrease dramatically. We slaughter 90 billion land animals per year. It takes a lot of food to feed that many animals. Most of our crops go to livestock feed. If you don't believe me, look at the simple math: It takes more crops to feed 90 billion than 7 billion, and cows eat more than people.

90>7.

On B12 deficiency: Yes many vegans are deficient, so are many meat eaters.

My favorite part: Morality

My opponent has spent a lot of time writing about evolution and superiority. They imply that animals are inferior to us.

So what?

Does that mean they deserve to be oppressed and cut up into little pieces?! Whether or not an animal is a person is irrelevant and an arrogant way to think. All animals are sentient, so there is no excuse to abuse them, any more than a Nazi had an excuse for the holocaust.

It doesn't matter if it involves a dog, cow, rat, ant, or whale. Animal abuse is animal abuse. Just because it involves bacon, doesn't change that.

Let me list off the things that we have done, and continue to do to animals. Then, it will be obvious about whether it is right or wrong.

1. We brand cows without painkiller.
2. We rape them with bull semen.
3. We clip their ears without painkiller.
4. We often keep them in horrible living conditions.
5. We milk them to exhaustion.
6. We hang them upside down and slash their throats till they bleed out in a slaughterhouse.
7. We cut the teeth off of baby pigs, so they don't bite each other.
8. We also rip off their testicles.
9. We kill pigs with a bolt gun. (yes, a fast death, but would you want that to happen to you?)
10. We cut the beaks off of chicks.
11. We shred the male chicks alive into dog food.
12. We decapitate chickens on a conveyor belt.
13. Other times we gas the animals we want to kill.
14. We go hunting, shoot innocent animals, and take pictures with their corpse as if it is something to be proud of.
15. Animals are handled with cattle prods.
16. Circus animals are slaves, as are dairy cows.
17. Minks are other animals have their necks snapped to be made into fur coats.
18. We test harmful products on animals.
19. We skin cows for leather.
20. We catch fish with painful hooks, drown them in the air and beat them against rocks.

My opponent cannot justify a single one of the above points. It doesn't take a genius to realize that this is evil. We have an entire holiday dedicated to killing a turkey and shoving bread up its anus! Is that supposed to be a symbol of peace?! A tortured and murdered animal?! Really?!

Eating meat never has been and never will be ethical. It's evil. Pure evil.

You can vote for veganism or you can vote for animal abuse.

It's obvious which one is morally right.

[1]. http://www.news.cornell.edu...
[2]. http://www.dailykos.com...
[3]. https://www.ers.usda.gov...
EXOPrimal

Con

Minor Rebuttals
Direct quotation(R3):"On B12 deficiency: Yes many vegans are deficient, so are many meat eaters."

But a higher percent of vegans have b12 defficiancy, which was my point. This quote does nothing.

Direct quotation(R3):"They imply that animals are inferior to us...So what?"

Pro concedes to the fact that humans are superior to animals, please keep this in mind. On the "so what?" part, I typed up that argument to prove that animals don't deserve the same rights as us.

Direct quotation(R3):"All animals are sentient, so there is no excuse to abuse them, any more than a Nazi had an excuse for the holocaust."

I will reiterate what I said in R1, Jews are superior to animals because they are human, so yes the Nazi's had no excuse. It is also time to stop comparing killing animals to eat and killing people just cause.

Direct quotation(R3):"It doesn't matter if it involves a dog, cow, rat, ant, or whale. Animal abuse is animal abuse. Just because it involves bacon, doesn't change that."

Pro doesn't seem to understand that it does matter a lot. Killing animals because someone wants to is not the same as killing an animal for food.


20 point I cannot justify
Pro presented 20 points on how we abuse animals, and most of these points are completely irrelevant in the context of this debate. I will now proceed to justify or refute every one of these points. Also note that PRO cites a grand total of 0 sources for these points.


We brand cows without painkiller.
Branding is only commonly used in small farms, when the threat of your livestock being stolen if a reality. In large companies, who produce most of the meat, branding is usually dropped for ear tags. Furthermore, branding only hurts for a second at most, then the end of the nerves are burnt(they come back) off, so you cannot feel pain. This information comes from humans who have been branded.

We rape them with bull semen.
Rape is defined as "unlawfulsexualintercourseor ..."(the rest is irrelevant)(1). This is not against the law, so it cannot be rape.

We clip their ears without painkiller.
Ear clipping is not used now, ear tags are much more common because they can provide much more information than a clipping.

We often keep them in horrible living conditions.
They are animals, we owe nothing to them.

We milk them to exhaustion.
If we didn't milk them their udders would swell, I understand this is because we take away their calves, but we need to Milk them.

We hang them upside down and slash their throats till they bleed out in a slaughterhouse.
They are unconscious during this process and do not feel anything.

We cut the teeth off of baby pigs, so they don't bite each other.
We do not cut off the entire tooth, and this helps prevent injuries. Cutting the tooth is now dying and is not being used except when the mother is not giving milk well, causing the piglets to fight, which may lead to death.

We also rip off their testicles.
They cannot feel anything during this process, we also do this to our pets, ect. There isn't anything wrong with this.

We kill pigs with a bolt gun. (yes, a fast death, but would you want that to happen to you?)
This is sure better then getting killed by a tiger.

We cut the beaks off of chicks.
This is to prevent fights and cannibalism. This helps save other chicken's lives.

We shred the male chicks alive into dog food.
The chicks die instantly.

We decapitate chickens on a conveyor belt.
The chickens, again, die instantly.

Other times we gas the animals we want to kill.
We do this to paralyze the animals, this is similar to taking laughing gas which, as you all know, does not hurt.

We go hunting, shoot innocent animals, and take pictures with their corpse as if it is something to be proud of.
If you have a good enough shot to kill an animal, then that is something to be proud of. Anyways the animals that are hunting are being eaten. If they aren't then it's hunting for sport, which is irrelevant in this debate about veganism.

Animals are handled with cattle prods.
If the animal's don't listen, then we have to do something. And we are not sure if it hurts, because cow skin is more that 2 times thicker then ours.

Circus animals are slaves, as are dairy cows.
This debate is about Veganism, so circus animals are irrelevant. As for cows, they do not need to work, so they are not slaves.
Minks are other animals have their necks snapped to be made into fur coats.
This debate is about Veganism, so this point is irrelevant.

We test harmful products on animals.
This debate is about Veganism, so this point is irrelevant.

We skin cows for leather.
The cows are already dead, also this debate is about Veganism, so this point is irrelevant.

We catch fish with painful hooks, drown them in the air and beat them against rocks.
Wow such an amazing point! One flaw though, fish can't feel pain or suffer.(2)

For these reasons, I urge you to vote Pro.

Citation
1.http://www.dictionary.com...
2.https://www.sciencedaily.com...
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by stuntman.k 11 months ago
stuntman.k
I said: We also rip off their testicles.
You said: They cannot feel anything during this process, we also do this to our pets, ect. There isn't anything wrong with this.

Okay, how about I rip off your f#cking testicles. Then you can decide if there's something wrong with it, a$$hole.
Posted by stuntman.k 1 year ago
stuntman.k
I apologize. I recognize the fact that animals are mentally inferior to us. You have proven that with research. I just disagree with you on the issue of whether or not that makes it okay to abuse the animals.

I wish we could do these types of debates in person. I feel like a lot of communication is lost in typing our arguments.

Anyway, I recognize the relevance of the research, but I still cannot support animal abuse.
Posted by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
Stuntman, a lot of stuff you still say in debates wasn't disproven in or debate. I understand holding to an ideal, but holding onto support that you can't prove factually is ignorant. It's totally okay to argue your side, but you have to put in the effort to advance you're argument into more sound territory. It's kind of offensive that you would compliment my work then act like no fact I presented is relevant. Why not read into it instead of arguing out of emotion and anger? You clearly haven't done any research beyond what you came to this site with.
Posted by stuntman.k 1 year ago
stuntman.k
Heavenly Panda, are you trying to be funny? This is ridiculous. I also kill germs when I wash my hands.

Yes, I care about sentient beings more than non-sentient beings because non-sentient beings don't suffer or he will to live. And no, the lettuce does not know that it is going to be eaten. It doesn't have a brain, it can't think.
Posted by HeavenlyPanda 1 year ago
HeavenlyPanda
So you seem a plants life lesser than others?

If so, then you are just the same as a non vegan in moral standards becuase you are doing what non vegans do, but to plants. Therefore you are not better than any other human.

Just becuase you don't think a plant feels pain when you eat it doesn't mean you're better than everyone else. In fact you're a lot worse than non vegans becuase you are eating something that is alive. And you are eating it a lot more than non vegans which makes you (aside from vegetarians) one of the more morally bad people.

At least non vegans have the decency to kill the animal before its eaten. We don't cook a cow while its still alive. Nor do we deep fry little chicks to make chicken fingers. But you who's main diet consists of veggies and non animals stuff eat way more veggies than non vegans. There's no denying it. Just think of that little lettuce that we'll call Watooshi being eaten alive. It knows what's going to happen when it gets put on that plate but you cruel vegans do it anyway. It's absolutely helpless as it gets stabbed multiple times with a fork before getting eaten. How cruel is that to our poor little Watooshi? And you cruel vegans want everyone to live off of plants. How cruel is that? At least we non vegans balance out diet between meat and plants. That way, one kingdom doesn't have to suffer for humanities hunger like you vegans want it to.
Posted by stuntman.k 1 year ago
stuntman.k
I agree with you, heavenly panda, when you say that vegans are stuck up. They still speak the truth.

I've heard the desperate plant argument a million times. If you saw me kick a tree you wouldn't care. If you saw me kick your dog you'd probably wanna fight me. Plants do not feel pain. They are not sentient.

And yes, vegans are more morally sound than others. Someone who doesn't eat babies is more morally sound than someone who does. Similarly, someone who doesn't abuse animals (vegans) is more morally sound than someone who does.
Posted by HeavenlyPanda 1 year ago
HeavenlyPanda
What about plants? There have been studies that plants feel too. Therefore being vegan isn't good enough for a society to be compassionate and good. We therefore must stop eating plants for they feel and are living. But animals must do their part too considering that we're obviously all in the same group. Essentially we must all stop eating eachother becuase that's what the golden rule states.

Or we could continue living normal lives because animals eat eachother and plants, therefore, we are following the golden rule. They are obviously ok with the fact that they're eating eachother. Why can't vegans stop being so stuck up and thinking that their morally right?

All that vegans are doing is denying themselves good food for the sake of trying to be better moral people.
Posted by rzentmayer 1 year ago
rzentmayer
Are you taking the side that Veganism is the only option and all other options are evil/detrimental to society? If so, I'll accept.
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