The Instigator
surpy
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
MasturDbtor
Con (against)
Winning
16 Points

Vegetarianism is a bad excuse to not eat meat

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
MasturDbtor
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/14/2011 Category: Health
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,299 times Debate No: 16505
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (0)
Votes (5)

 

surpy

Pro

This is a fun-ish debate, but if we start to get into it, then let the gloves come off!

=Positions=
-Pro: must say that, people who say "I am a vegetarian" is a bad excuse to not eat meat
Con: must say that, people who say "I am a vegetarian" is a good excuse to not eat meat

=Round Rules=
1. agreement and questions or concerns about the topic
2. case construction, no attacking, yet
3. case attack (no attacking the attacking, and no defending)
4. defending and final remarks

I would thank my opponent for accepting this debate, and good luck.
MasturDbtor

Con

I agree. No questions or concerns yet.
Debate Round No. 1
surpy

Pro

No questions, then lets get this party started!

A few definitions.
Vegetarian: "a person who does not eat or does not believe in eating meat, fish, fowl, or, in some cases, any food derived from animals, as eggs or cheese, but subsists on vegetables, fruits, nuts, grain, etc." [1]
Meat: "the flesh of animals as used for food."[1]

First of all, why are some people vegetarians? some people think its because they are doing the animal a favor, but they are hurting the animal by not eating it.

Now to my 4 points
1. The meat is already there.
2. It's a huge waste.
3. It is healthy to not be a vegetarian.
4. Not eating meat wont change anything but make waste.

1. The meat is already there.
The basic outline of how a cow becomes a hamburger, a cow is raised and then when it gets big they kill it and turn it into ground beef and then it gets packed and sold. One reasons why vegetarians choose to be a vegetarian is because they think they killed the animal by eating it, so in an attempt to save it they choose not to eat it. It is common sense that the vegetarian didn't kill the cow and that cow that they admired not to eat will go to waste if they don't eat it.

2. It's a huge waste.
It's a huge waste to say no to eating meat. Some vegetarians think that not eating meat will preserve the animal, but it would make the animal die for nothing. Lots of grains, and other resources are needed to raise animals to slaughter them to make meat, if they don't get eaten all of those resources go to waste.

3.It is healthy to not be a vegetarian.
Meat contain a lot of needed nutrients such as iron. Meat is very easy to get and it contains protein and iron. Not eating meat can lead to unhealthiness due to not getting enough iron or protein or any other important nutrient in meat.

4. Not eating meat wont change anything but make waste.
Some vegetarians think that not eating meat will make it so that the slaughter houses will stop making meat. Not eating meat will not change anything, but make some meat go to waste.

That is my case on why vegetarianism is a bad excuse to not eat meat.
Vote Pro!

[1] = Dictionary.com (just search the words)
MasturDbtor

Con

A few reasons why vegetarianism is not just a "bad excuse to not eat meat".

Religion

Some religions such as many Hindu sects, and Jainism require vegetarianism. Religion is a matter of personal belief. Some people derive great meaning and purpose from religion. A person who is a vegetarian because of their religion does not just have a "bad excuse to not eat meat".

Personal Feelings/Psychology

Everybody has their personal feelings about things. A person might think eating intestines or liver or dog is disgusting. Why? It just really comes down to how the person feels. Some people might see meat and think of the animal getting slaughtered while eating it. I don't, but some people might and if I did I probably would be a vegetarian. Some people's personal feelings might be such that they have a psychological need to be a vegetarian and trying not to be would hurt their psychological health.

Taste Buds

Everybody has different taste buds. Some people might just find that they don't like the taste of meat.

Dietary Needs

A planned vegetarian diet can have some health benefits. There is less risk of problems associated with the consumption of meat. Protein can be substituted with soy, beans, and nuts. Many vegetarians also drink milk and eat eggs. It is not necessary to be a vegan in order to be a vegetarian. Some people might even adopt a vegetarian diet to help them in achieving something, such as athletics.

http://www.nomeatathlete.com...

In some cases vegetarianism is recommended for medical treatment, such as with some cases of rheumatoid arthritis.

http://www.pcrm.org...

Food Safety

Some underdeveloped countries have poor sanitation and the people are too poor to affoard modern appliances to keep food clean. Keeping meat sanitary and free of infection may be difficult and there may be many diseases such as E. Coli that a person could catch. In fact that's still an occassional problem in developed countries, although it is easier for us to take measures to make sure it is ok if we cook it. If a person is legitimately concerned about getting infected that's a good reason to be a vegetarian.

Political Concerns

People have their own political beliefs that may play into the decision. A person might not even think meat should be illegal, but consider the way the meat industry is run today to be a travesty based on how livestock is treated while alive or based on where the meat might be coming from, such as countries with exploitative labor practices. Whether or not they are right people are entitled to their own opinions.
Debate Round No. 2
surpy

Pro

Now to the case attacking round.

=Religion attack=
A: I do agree that some religions do make their "followers" vegetarian's but why would some one of that religion be offered meat? If a person of that religion doesn't get offered meat, then it wouldn't be an excuse.

B: Some people are not as devoted to their religion, if a person was of the religion that you have to be a vegetarian and not that good at that religion, then the reason wouldn't be that good.

C: There are many other religions that aren't vegetarians, so it becomes invalid.

=Personal Feelings/Psychology attack=
A: I go back to the, "why would they get offered meat?" if they have these feelings then they would stay away from places who have meat.

=Taste Buds attack=
A: I agree that some people don't like the taste of meat, but meat there is a bunch of different kinds of meat that come in many different flavors, so the chance of some one not liking due to taste is slim to none.

=Dietary Needs attack=
A: Substitutes to meat for the health benefits, could be hard to find, so that means that they would be expensive, but meat is cheap because it is easy to obtain.

B: There is more risk for not eating meat, because meat contains a lot of protein and iron and other things needed for daily life.

C: Most athletes need to eat meat to help build up their muscles, so to achieve their athletic they eat meat.

D: Recommended is not required, so people who are told it is recommended to not eat meat, doesn't mean that they have to stop eating meat.

=Food Safety attack=
A: poor sanitation goes for any kind of food, meat or vegetables, it is required to keep what ever you consume to be clean.

B: Fruits and Vegetables must have certain preparations, especially in developing countries, if some one doesn't wash a fruit or vegetable then it could spread a disease.

C: How do you think that people ate meat if they didn't have any stoves or microwaves? Yet they lived by eating meat. It is possible to eat meat without the modern appliances.

=Political Concerns attack=
A: The livestock at these meat industries are treated "like kings" in a sense. They get fed and treated after because the people who run the meat industries care about the money that their products get them.

B: Most of the meat that is consumed in America are made in America. America has certain laws that the meat industries must follow.

I still stand by that vegetarianism is a bad excuse to not eat meat.

Please Vote Pro.

I am excited for round 4.
MasturDbtor

Con

Rebuttal #1

It's basic economics. In a free market production is determined by supply and demand. If less people eat meat businessmen will respond by making less than they otherwise would, and so raising less livestock over time.

Saying vegetarianism is wasteful because they aren't using the meat is like saying abstention from any given product is wasteful because the individual is choosing not to buy the product and put it to use. If that really was wasteful we'd be in trouble, because as much as we consume each individual still does not buy even a majority of available products in the economy.

Rebuttal #2

If one more person is vegetarian it tilts the market towards it being more productive to use that grain and other resources for other purposes such as bread for humans, so there is no waste. See my point on #1 about the market.

Rebuttal #3

Iron and Protein can easily be supplemented in health food stores. Some would prefer not to do this, but that's a personal decision.

Rebuttal #4

There is no waste being made by vegetarianism. Whether or not vegetarianism is big enough to make any real changes to the economy it is not wasting anything, because the market takes care of changes in people's preferences. Furthermore, not every vegetarian cares about the slaughter houses. Some vegetarians are apolitical and simply do not like eating meat.

Saying vegetarianism is a bad excuse to not eat meat is like saying disliking onions is a bad excuse to not eat onions. A person's personal preferences regarding food are never a "bad excuse" to not eat it, because our personal tastes are subjective.
Debate Round No. 3
surpy

Pro

Now for my defense and final remarks.

Defense 1

Like most of us know that meat spoils and then goes to waste "Unopened packages of lunchmeat or hot dogs can be kept refrigerated for up to two weeks if they are within their expiration date."[1] but unlike other products that isn't meat, they don't spoil. The meat industry would have to resort to selling their products at cheap prices if the demand went lower than supply, and all the unsold meat would go to waste, so it would still go to waste. It's all about the dollar and if the meat industries are still making money they will continue to make the same amount of meat in hope for more demand would come in.

Defense 2

The grain fed to the animals have growth hormones, so it wouldn't be good to any human. Grain doesn't offer the same nutrients that meat would offer, so it would be worse if the left over resources that were intended for the live stock to be fed by humans. In short term the farmers or the businessmen would have bought the grain and gave it growth hormones so it would be waste then, and long term the grains wouldn't offer the same nutrients as meat would.

Defense 3

Although Iron and Protein can be supplemented with certain vegetables or fruits, but meat contains more protein then any other fruit or vegetable. Meat is easier to obtain then the special fruit or vegetable, so these fruits or vegetables would be more expensive and that would cause people lose more money and it would lead to more debt, and on and on. Instead of buying expensive fruits or vegetables to get the protein or iron, they could buy the meat and not let it go to waste.

Defense 4

There is waste for being a vegetarian, and the waste is meat. Not buying meat will allow it to go to waste, and they are not changing anything, the meat industry will still make meat, and if the vegetarians wont buy meat then it will go to waste. Short term to a vegetarian not buying meat, more meat will go to waste, long term more meat will go to waste. There are more people who will eat meat then there are vegetarians, so the meat industry will see these people coming and and they will try to predict the new high demand so they will make more meat, but if the demand goes lower than it should, then the supply of meat goes down due to spoil. Some vegetarians are extreme activists and they would try anything to stop the production of meat, so they stop eating meat, but that won't change anything because of the new people coming in that will most likely not be vegetarians and then the meat industry tries to predict the new demand and continue to make the same amount of meat.

Now for my final remarks.

There are new people coming into this world, and the chance of they being vegetarians is very slim to none, so the meat industries sees this and tries to predict this and make a high amount of supply, but if a vegetarian doesn't buy meat then it will go to waste. Vegetarianism is a bad excuse to not eat meat because they cause waste, they don't change anything, and it is all in their heads.

Vote Pro!

[1] = http://www.brighthub.com...
MasturDbtor

Con

=Why would they get offered meat?=
In reference to Pro's arguments against "religion" and "personal feelings/psychology"...

Pro never limited the subject down to people who are being offered meat, so the subject is about any vegetarian even if nobody ever comes up to them and offers them meat. Maybe these people aren't being offered meat? Or maybe they went to a place that had meat in order to get non-meat items off the menu. Either way "not wanting it" is a perfectly good reason.

=Recommendation for Arthritis=

Pro says arthritis patients can just ignore the recommendation. This is true, but a person's health is not a "bad excuse" for something, it's a "good excuse". If someone has arthritis and finds the pain is reduced by not eating meat then that is not a bad reason. If even a few people have a "good excuse" to not eat meat then vegetarianism is not "just" a "bad excuse" to not eat meat.

=Food Safety=

Yes fruits and vegetables need to be washed, but that's much easier than the sorts of preparations needed for meat in many cases. Yes, people eat meat in ancient times when we didn't have modern technology. Regardless today we can make scientific estimates of risk when we eat. If a community is told their meat is tainted with salmonella but their fruits and vegetables are relatively safe it makes logical sense for them to switch to a vegetarian diet for the time being.

=The Spoiling Argument=

Meat may spoil faster, but other foods spoil too. Milk has an expiration date. Fruits and vegetables rot over time.

As for the new people coming into the world the chance of a small number of them being vegetarians is actually quite high. For every single one of them to want to eat meat would be next to impossible. I'm sure the meat industry wants to maximize profits as much as possible, so they would try to predict the amount of "meat demand" in the next generation. In calculating this they would have to analyze vegetarianism and see how the population is going to grow or shrink in the future. Pro makes it sound like because only a small number of people will be vegetarian that therefore the meat industry can't take into account. That's absurdly ridiculous. Industries take into account the numbers and percentages of people's preferences all the time rather than just going on "which is bigger?" If they didn't niche markets would not exist.

=Solution to Spoilage=

There is an obvious solution to the problem of spoiled meat. Feed it to the poor before it spoils. Not only would it alleviate poverty it would give the meat industry good PR. That the meat industry forgoes this option is its own fault, not vegetarians'.

=Political=

There are laws, but they are not adequate. Animals are often confined in tight spaces. Some vegetarians might stop being vegetarians if the meat industry or the government would just fix this problem. In that sense the waste isn't the vegetarians' fault, it's the meat industry's. A few simple changes could make the problem go away.

www.meat.org

Furthermore there is now research into test tube meat and a lot of vegetarians say they wouldn't mind eating it if it was on the market. Vegetarians may be pushing ahead scientific research by abstaining from traditional meat.

http://www.examiner.com...

=Freedom!=

I'll cap this off by saying this is America and in America people have choice, choice to choose what to eat.

Vote Con! Vote for liberty!
Debate Round No. 4
No comments have been posted on this debate.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 3 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
surpyMasturDbtorTied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: "if a person was of the religion that you have to be a vegetarian and not that good at that religion, then the reason wouldn't be that good" - yeah but what if they are, that is the point. The resolution doesn't make a lot of sense, you can not be a vegetarian and eat meat, it is not an excuse it is a definition. 3:1 Con.
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 3 years ago
RoyLatham
surpyMasturDbtorTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I think the religious argument was compelling. Refusing to conform to religious tradition could cause a person to be ostracized in his community. Other arguments were weak. tere are more health disadvantages than advantages, but it's not significant either way.
Vote Placed by Rockylightning 3 years ago
Rockylightning
surpyMasturDbtorTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con argued with more logical reasoning.
Vote Placed by ReformedArsenal 3 years ago
ReformedArsenal
surpyMasturDbtorTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro's argumentation was poor. Essentially broke down to "This is what I think" kinds of arguments. Great conduct on both sides, Pro had some spelling issues that hurt him.
Vote Placed by tvellalott 3 years ago
tvellalott
surpyMasturDbtorTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I thought Con's counter-arguments were excellent. Pro, you should have refined your resolution as it allowed so many arguments against you.