The Instigator
JMichelle
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Cody_Franklin
Con (against)
Winning
42 Points

Vi_Veri is hotter than theLwerd.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 7 votes the winner is...
Cody_Franklin
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/28/2009 Category: Society
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,623 times Debate No: 8809
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (16)
Votes (7)

 

JMichelle

Pro

I believe that the debate.org member Vi_Veri is hotter, meaning more sexually attractive, than the debate.org member, theLwerd. We can start debating in R2, unless my opponent wants to start in R1, to reduce his chances of getting pwned. Aw yeah.
Cody_Franklin

Con

I'll go ahead and agree to start actual debate in Round 2, but I would like to take this 'freebie' post to make an opening statement, and a couple of clarifications.

First, I'd like to agree that the standard of 'hotness', so to speak, will be sexual attractiveness.

Second, allow me to clarify the PRO's burden today. Because sexual attractiveness is our standard for the round, my opponent must prove to you, beyond his personal opinion, that the user Vi_Veri is indeed more sexually attractive than theLwerd; this means that, because the actual claim is made, there must be some hard evidence proving that Vi_Veri undoubtedly IS the more attractive of the two, not simply that my opponent BELIEVES her to be more attractive.

Third, and finally, I would like to clarify my own burden for today: though I disagree with the resolution at hand, I do not have to prove that theLwerd is the 'hotter' of the two; I must simply prove that Vi_Veri is not; while trying to prove that theLwerd is more attractive is a valid position, examples of other acceptable positions would be to say that they are equally attractive, or that it depends on one's perspective, or even to argue against the resolution itself, and say that it is possibly hurtful to claim one as being 'hotter' than the other, or to argue against the fact that the resolution can never be proven universally true, and to further that by saying that my opponent is trying to set some kind of trap by allowing his personal opinions of Vi_Veri to be counted as factual evidence.

I would like to ask my opponent, in his first argument, to only build his case; while I have presented a few of the many possible positions that I could take, I would merely ask my opponent to accept these all as legitimate possibilities for argumentation, rather than trying to refute them; because obviously, it is quite unfair to allow the PRO to pre-empt many of the possible arguments I can make; so, to the PRO, personally, you may look over these possible methods of argumentation, and prepare for them, but please do not openly refute them in your first post.

Thank you, and I look forward to what should be a... most interesting debate.
Debate Round No. 1
JMichelle

Pro

"Second, allow me to clarify the PRO's burden today. Because sexual attractiveness is our standard for the round, my opponent must prove to you, beyond his personal opinion, that the user Vi_Veri is indeed more sexually attractive than theLwerd; this means that, because the actual claim is made, there must be some hard evidence proving that Vi_Veri undoubtedly IS the more attractive of the two, not simply that my opponent BELIEVES her to be more attractive."

This is just not true.

What is the essence of a debate? The exchanging, and the confrontation, of differing ideology, and the quest for overall understanding that ultimately results from the debate.

At the deepest topics, of course, the controversiality of the debate which promotes this strong confrontation also hinders and transcends the simple concept of "Prove it" or having to unconditionally prove something in order to make a point.

In a true debate, you don't necessarily need to definitively prove yourself right; you just need to provide a reasonable rationale which backs up your resolution.

"that it depends on one's perspective"

This undermines the underlying spirit in debate. To argue in favor of that which cannot be proven.

"it is possibly hurtful to claim one as being 'hotter' than the other"

Irrelevant.

Sorry, I tried to keep the responding to that part of your argument to a minimum. Hopefully you won't mind what I've done.

Reasons why I believe the resolution is true:

Vi_Veri is 20 years old. theLwerd is 22 years old. Because theLwerd can legally drink alcohol, chances are that she has had more, and thus, that she's probably more messed up, visually, from it.

Judging from theLwerd's arm in her profile picture, she's probably a bit fatter than Vi_Veri. Maybe this is better; thick chicks are awesome, but overall, most guys prefer slimmer girls.

Vi_Veri has dark hair. I think dark hair is, in general, more interesting than blond hair. It's different. When most girls are blonde in the U.S., a dark haired girl can stand out much more, and be much more interesting, and therefore more sexually attractive.

theLwerd is much paler than Vi_Veri. Again, this point is the same as my above one. Pale skin is much too common here. Also, clearly, tanned skin is more attractive, evidenced by huge ratio of girls who try to tan themselves versus those who bleach their skin (does that even happen? I hope not; I love that brown sugar.)

I have affirmed this resolution. I await my opponents refutations.
Cody_Franklin

Con

In discussion of the burden, my opponent offers two contradictory statements:

"In a true debate, you don't necessarily need to definitively prove yourself right; you just need to provide a reasonable rationale which backs up your resolution."

"This undermines the underlying spirit in debate. To argue in favor of that which cannot be proven."

What he's saying is that we shouldn't argue in favor of what cannot be proven, yet in the same breath says that we don't need to prove ourselves right; it seems to me like he is trying to hold me on a different standard than he holds himself; at least, it seems to be so, prima facie.

And yes, while the spirit of the debate is to grow, and learn, and share ideas, I was outlining the burden for actually winning the debate.

But no, it's entirely fine for you to have that short reply; it helps to clarify if I have your input as well. So, thank you.

First of all, he brings up the age issue. A couple of things here:

First of all, just because theLwerd can legally drink alcohol does not mean she does. This is the fallacy that we would call the appeal to probability, which says that because something COULD happen, that it WILL happen; obviously, my opponent's logic here is not entirely sound.

Second of all, Vi_Veri could very well drink despite being under the legal drinking age; "Underage females were more likely to report binge drinking (16 percent) than were females aged 21 or older (13 percent)." http://www.oas.samhsa.gov... We can see here that, theoretically, it's more likely for someone underage to drink heavily than someone who is of legal age (the 'forbidden fruit' concept). So, assuming that theLWerd does drink, it's not a stretch to say that Vi_Veri is also quite likely to (again, I haven't asked).

Third, and most importantly, I highly doubt that theLwerd binges enough on alcohol to significantly alter her appearance; after a quick look at her profile picture, she doesn't look like an alcoholic by any means. And you still have yet to draw the causal link; even if her looks were correlated with her alcohol consumption, do not forget that 'correlation does not imply causation'.

Then you talk about theLwerd's weight; while I'm not comfortable discussing the weight of a woman I have never met, I will try to argue this paradigm with you as best as I can.

I'd like to point out, voters, that he openly admits that her allegedly larger weight is "maybe... better". So, what he's really doing is conceding a possible hole in his side of the debate; I'd really like to crystallize the fact that, he is extremely close to conceding the debate here when he discusses how 'thick chicks are awesome'; and, since most of his opinions are what he uses to back his side up, you can use these statements against him.

And, really, he's trying to judge weight from a tiny part of an arm in a picture; there's no telling how wide or thin she is, so his entire argument could very well be based on fallacious evidence; keep that in mind.

Next, you can simply disregard his hair color argument;

First of all, while my opponent may prefer brunettes over blondes, it may not be that way for most of the male population; again, try not to let his personal preferences count entirely as fact. A personal observation is far different than actual logic; he's simply using his preferences to make largely unwarranted assertions.

Second of all, I'd like to point out that, as the stereotype goes, blondes are more likely to engage in risque behavior of any kind; blondes are known for 'having more fun', and this stereotype drives a lot of males to crave a blonde girl (obviously, because of what they believe to be their increased chances at sexual activity).

And one note; I've looked at theLwerd's picture from two different screens, and in neither case can I actually confirm that her hair is actually blonde; I'm not saying it's impossible, but it looks to me a lot like a light to medium brown, which looks blonde because the light is shining brightly off of it; I would really like some confirmation on her hair color before I even try to argue my opponent's point on blondes v. brunettes any further.

Next, we have skin tone.

I'd first like to point out the contradiction here; he talks about how common paler skin is, yet he also states that a large ratio of girls are tanning; he needs to make up his mind as to which one is a larger proportion of people.

Second of all, it is once again a matter of personal preference; not everyone prefers tan over pale, or any color over any other. While my opponent says that he... loves that brown sugar... I for one don't mind pale skin; I've seen some very gorgeous girls that haven't tanned even a bit. It's all a matter of perspective.

And this is the argument that's going to rock the flow for you; despite what my opponent might prefer, or what he says that the general public likes, sexual attraction is entirely a subjective matter; it all depends on the person you ask. Some males enjoy slim, others enjoy heavy, some enjoy blondes, others enjoy brunettes; some like intelligence, others don't; some like drinkers, others don't; some like tanned girl, others don't; I could go on with an infinite number of characteristics, but my point is that it all comes down to a matter of personal preference; and because, obviously, my opponent (hopefully) is not aware of the preference of a majority of the general public, he can not definitively prove to you that the user Vi_Veri is, without a doubt, more sexually attractive than the user theLwerd. If there's even the slightest doubt in your mind that he hasn't achieved his burden, you'll vote CON.

I look forward to what I'm sure will be a most interesting response, and I urge that, for the sake of common sense, you give this round to the CON.
Debate Round No. 2
JMichelle

Pro

I have like 10 minutes to post this argument.

"In discussion of the burden, my opponent offers two contradictory statements:"

They aren't contradictory. The spirit of debate is often to argue for that which cannot necessarily be proven. That's why it's a debate.

"I'd like to point out, voters, that he openly admits that her allegedly larger weight is "maybe... better". So, what he's really doing is conceding a possible hole in his side of the debate; I'd really like to crystallize the fact that, he is extremely close to conceding the debate here when he discusses how 'thick chicks are awesome'; and, since most of his opinions are what he uses to back his side up, you can use these statements against him."

Yes, I said that thick chicks are awesome. However, not as awesome as girls like Vi_Veri.

"And, really, he's trying to judge weight from a tiny part of an arm in a picture; there's no telling how wide or thin she is, so his entire argument could very well be based on fallacious evidence; keep that in mind."

It's not really tiny. And, I should specify, there's much more evidence besides her arm. In general, she looks more weighty in the picture, based on her upper abdomen, her face, and her arm.

"First of all, while my opponent may prefer brunettes over blondes, it may not be that way for most of the male population; again, try not to let his personal preferences count entirely as fact. A personal observation is far different than actual logic; he's simply using his preferences to make largely unwarranted assertions."

It seems strange to me that you're choosing to cite my personal preferences against me in one argument and then disregard the preferences as purely subjective in another.

"I'd first like to point out the contradiction here; he talks about how common paler skin is, yet he also states that a large ratio of girls are tanning; he needs to make up his mind as to which one is a larger proportion of people."

This isn't a contradiction. Pale skin is common. Many people try to tan. If they tan themselves sometimes, that doesn't mean they don't have pale skin.

"Second of all, it is once again a matter of personal preference; not everyone prefers tan over pale, or any color over any other. While my opponent says that he... loves that brown sugar... I for one don't mind pale skin; I've seen some very gorgeous girls that haven't tanned even a bit. It's all a matter of perspective."

See above, about selective usage of the "personal preference" argument.

"And this is the argument that's going to rock the flow for you; despite what my opponent might prefer, or what he says that the general public likes, sexual attraction is entirely a subjective matter; it all depends on the person you ask. Some males enjoy slim, others enjoy heavy, some enjoy blondes, others enjoy brunettes; some like intelligence, others don't; some like drinkers, others don't; some like tanned girl, others don't; I could go on with an infinite number of characteristics, but my point is that it all comes down to a matter of personal preference; and because, obviously, my opponent (hopefully) is not aware of the preference of a majority of the general public, he can not definitively prove to you that the user Vi_Veri is, without a doubt, more sexually attractive than the user theLwerd. If there's even the slightest doubt in your mind that he hasn't achieved his burden, you'll vote CON."

This is all irrelevant. The voters will vote for whoever has done a better job of explaining why he thinks his position is the better one.
Cody_Franklin

Con

I'm sorry to hear that you only had 10 minutes; but, in the spirit of fairness, you're the one that set the time limit to a mere 24 hours ;)

What my opponent is trying to say here, folks, is that he doesn't actually have to prove the claim that he himself has set up, as both the pro, AND the instigator of this debate; if he doesn't want to prove his claim, then he's already lost; it's called the 'burden of proof' for a reason.

Now, on the weight issue, he claims that heavier girls are not as 'awesome' as those like Vi_Veri; still, he doesn't address the fact that, as far as heavier weight is concerned, he himself has admitted that "maybe this is better"; flow the fact right on through to the CON that this is extremely close to a concession, because he's essentially admitting that he might not be proving the resolution true.

As far as the evidence of theLwerd's supposedly larger weight, I'd like to point out that first of all, only a small part of her arm is visible, her face doesn't seem to give much detail as to her weight, and her 'upper abdomen' looks to me is simply the effect of a blurry picture and a 'poofy' shirt; nothing more.

So, if you believe that she is heavier, you also must believe, to a point, that my opponent has conceded; if you do not believe to be heavier, that places her either equal to Vi_Veri in that respect; regardless, it's all a matter of perspective as to what one finds attractive; this means that, beyond his own preference (should you choose to accept it), he cannot prove the resolution true.

What I'm doing with the personal preference/subjectivity argument is proving a point; the gist is this; you can't affirm the resolution based solely on your belief that Vi_Veri is more sexually attractive; but then, I go on to say that, even if voters look at the round through the perspective you have offered, I've still found multiple ways to turn it against you, the weight argument being one example.

As far as the pale/tanned skin issue goes, my argument here is not that you either have pale or you have tan, but rather that, if pale skin is so common, it's far more than likely that many men find a woman's soft, light, creamy skin to be very sexually attractive, despite the handful of people attempting to become tanned.

For the last big paragraph that he copies, he just claims it to be irrelevant; my big question here is, why? He offers no reason that this should be excluded from your voting considerations; all that I am trying to explain there is that while his personal preference is valid for HIM, he can't use that to universalize the resolution; everyone has their own personal preference; I'm sure mine differs from my opponents; my point there is that because everyone's preference is different, he cannot possibly prove the resolution true as a general principle, which is his burden as PRO, since he made the positive claim to begin with; and, like I said at the bottom there, if there is even the SMALLEST doubt in your mind by now that the PRO is trying to weasel out of his burden of proof (especially now that he tries to say that the spirit of debate is arguing something that "doesn't necessarily have to be proven"), you're going to give this to the CON.

Now that I've gotten the extensions out of the way, I'd like to point out a few arguments that my opponent dropped.

Near the top of the flow here is the drinking argument; he never refutes the fact that Vi_Veri could very possibly engage in the consumption of alcohol, coupled with the statistics I gave about how underage females are more likely to report binge drinking; I really want to hammer home that 'forbidden fruit' concept, because this will put the two ladies on an even theoretical playing field for the purposes of this debate, since my opponent not only presented that appeal to probability fallacy, but dropped the underage drinking concept as well, and especially the fact that, even if theLwerd were consuming alcohol, her picture tells us that it is not an amount significant enough to negatively alter her appearance; so, this is yet another point to flow to the CON today.

Also, a drop on his part concerning the hair color argument is the fact that, to this point, we still have not positively confirmed theLwerd's hair color; so, first of all, she could also have a light to medium brown hair color, which would fit the subjective parameters of my opponent's argument (his alleged preference for brunettes), yet another reason that his personal preference, while not usable as universal proof, still works best for me; but also, flow through the fact that, even if she is blonde, the stereotype goes that blondes tend to have a lot more fun, causing many sexually-driven males to crave them and seek them out.

So, if nothing else, you have to vote on the fact that everyone has their personal opinion about what makes a girl sexually attractive, and that, while his opinion works for him, it may not appeal to everyone; so, you can't allow his personal preference to carry the weight of the round; but, like I said, even if you look at the round through what my opponent has given us of his perspective, I've shown how that works far better for my position than it does for his.

Thanks much, give this round to CON, and I hope to hear from my opponent when he has all the time he needs to build the strongest argument possible.
Debate Round No. 3
JMichelle

Pro

JMichelle forfeited this round.
Cody_Franklin

Con

It would appear that my opponent has forfeited this round.

As opposed to just re-iterating all of the extensions and refutations in my last post, I'll just tell you to flow everything through; I'd like you, however, to especially note the arguments discussing how his perspective can't universalize the resolution, and how I've turned a lot of his own logic and personal perspective against him, in addition to the fact that I've turned every single other argument against him, as well; so, once again, my opponent isn't universalizing the claim, thus he isn't meeting his burden of proof/universality, thus he can't win the round, thus you have to vote CON.

Hopefully, my opponent doesn't forfeit Round 4, as well. I look forward to his response.
Debate Round No. 4
JMichelle

Pro

JMichelle forfeited this round.
Cody_Franklin

Con

Unfortunately, my opponent has again forfeited; so, once again, you can flow through the arguments I've made, the arguments he's made (which I have turned on him), and ultimately, the fact that his singular perspective is not enough to universalize the claim that he has made.

With a lack of rebuttal on the part of my opponent, you must vote CON, though it saddens me that this is more by default than by actual victory.
Debate Round No. 5
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Cody_Franklin 7 years ago
Cody_Franklin
Well, couldn't you have just typed "I concede" as opposed to letting time go like that?
Posted by JMichelle 7 years ago
JMichelle
Sorry, I just got bored of debating this.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
Conduct: CON for obvious reasons.
Arguments: CON. Pro contradicted himself (as Con so cleverly pointed out), and Con met his burden of proof.
Posted by untitled_entity 7 years ago
untitled_entity
I'd default CON due to to forfeits
Posted by Cody_Franklin 7 years ago
Cody_Franklin
Of course, RFDs please and thank you. :)
Posted by Cody_Franklin 7 years ago
Cody_Franklin
That should be "forfeit round 5*, as well".
Posted by Cody_Franklin 7 years ago
Cody_Franklin
Because a lot of people don't like the idea of debating 'which girl is hotter?'

I am included in that group of people, but instead of 'disliking' the debate, I decided to take the CON and prove that it's wrong.
Posted by Rezzealaux 7 years ago
Rezzealaux
Why is this debate at -3 likes?
Posted by Cody_Franklin 7 years ago
Cody_Franklin
Heck, I'll take the CON side of this; not because of any personal investment, but I think it will certainly be interesting to see where PRO tries to take this.
Posted by untitled_entity 7 years ago
untitled_entity
I'm with rogueagent... especially since you've only been here a week.
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Vote Placed by numa 7 years ago
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Vote Placed by Cody_Franklin 7 years ago
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