The Instigator
ellpa
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
LaL36
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Video Games are the new art form

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/4/2012 Category: Technology
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,474 times Debate No: 20223
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

ellpa

Pro

I'd like to thank my opponent in advance for taking this argument.

Video Games are Art

There's no solid definition for what an art is, but it mostly agreed that an art is a piece or work that people find enjoyable or appealing and that can give a deeper have a deeper insight into many different subjects. Art should also be able to be interpreted differently by every person. I assert that video games do just that.

Video Games Look/Sound Great
Well this part is a no brainier. No one can deny that video games can be ascetically pleasing, with better and better looking games coming out every year with varying art styles. There's everything from ultra-realism to abstract art style in games today, both managing to impress players. The music in video games has never been better, with full symphonies recording soundtracks for games; if you haven't listen to some video game soundtracks I highly recommend it. With great graphics and soundtrack, video games can take someone's breath away and stare in wonder.

Video Games can Give Deep Insight
Through the game play, story, and atmosphere, a game can give insights into deeper subjects. A prime example is the Mass Effect series, which makes the player make a plethora of moral choices throughout the game; I just want to focus on one. In this game there is a robotic alien race called the Geth, half of who want to kill you and half of who think your their savior. In one of the missions you are given the choice to either completely wipe out the Geth who are opposed to you or reprogram them so that they no longer hate you. This choice makes the player really think about this issue, put themselves in the place of the Geth. How would I like it if someone could just reprogram me, change how I fundamentally think, without me ever knowing. Would I rather die as the man I am, or become a completely different person but stay alive. These are the questions the player has to ask himself as he tries to decide the Geth's fate. I found out that I want to go down fighting, as I am. No one can deny the depth that this problem puts into the game. And this isn't the sole example of a video games exploring deep subjects; games like Bioshock and Persona 4 also explore deep subjects, like along with many others games.

Video Games Can be Interpreted Differently
Some people doubt that video games can mean more than one thing, that the same game can be seen differently by two people. There are a great numbers of games that show just that; games like Portal and Half-Life that hint at a deeper plot that is left up to the player to interpret, or games like Deus Ex which leaves it up to the player to decide if they're fighting on the right side. Video games have been able to caused debates for decades, there's no doubt that video games can be interpreted differently by people.

Thanks for reading my argument and I look foward to your response.
LaL36

Con

I wish my opponent luck.

Video Games can give deep insights

My opponent mentioned within a fairly long paragraph that video games can go into several deeper subjects. Now, 1) The majority of players playing video games, correct me if I'm wrong, often do not look for a "deeper" meaning as they play their video games they just play it to have fun and I believe most creators of videogames do not intend so either. You mentioned a game called "The Mass Effect Series" where during your gameplay, you were thinking "How would I like it if they did that to me?" 1) It's a video game not real life. 2) If you take a video game like the "Grand Theft Auto Series" When players are just killing random civilians, running over pedestrians, stealing cars, etc. I don't think one person is saying "How would I like it if they did that to me?" so therefore I don't see insights in most video games.

Video Games can be interpreted differently

So can just about everything else.

Video Games Are Art

Not a great idea to state that considering you are willing to debate about that. This is a complete opinion.

Video Games Sound Great

Also an opinion although I agree with you. As for art: Art provides expression, communication, exploration, imagination, cultural and historical understanding, the list goes on and on. What does videogames provide aside from entertainment. For many students, Art is their prime motivation for coming to school whereas kids do not complete their homework because they are too busy playing video games. Also, with video games there are hundreds of stories of people not getting a job because they are addicted to video games. Look at this http://serendip.brynmawr.edu...

Now, video games are fun with moderation.

Good Luck!
Debate Round No. 1
ellpa

Pro

This round I going to repudiate some of my opponent's points.

1. "The majority of the players... do not look for a 'deeper' meaning"

While I agree with this point, I don't see it as a valid argument for saying that video games are not an art. When people watch films or look at a picture or read a book, most of those people aren't looking for the deeper meaning either, but yet we still consider art forms. If someone can enjoy an action movie without seeing it underlying message about war, its equally true that someone can play a video game and not see its underlying meaning(s). Most art doesn't have a deep meaning unless you really look for it, something not enough people do in video games.

2. "I believe most creators do not intend so either" (in the context of creating deep games)

I assume this statement means that you believe that when developers make a game, they don't actually try to make it deep, and any depth in game is there by pure coincidence. I can tell you for a fact that this is wrong. Developers spend years working on a game, spending more time than they have to so that their game is amazing. They go over all parts of the story, game play, art style, and music a thousand times; its no accident that games have this amount of depth. Please note that many game writers are actually novelist who have decided to write for games now. They inject as much depth and complexion into the story in the video game as they do in any novel they write

3. It's a video game not real life

Something doesn't have to be real for it to be deep and have meaning. There are tons of books and movies that very loosely resemble our way of life, yet still are deep. None of these books, movies, or even art is real, but yet we still find a deeper meaning in it.

4. "'Grand Theft Auto Series'"

You use this series (the go to game series for anyone opposed to video games) to say even though they're might be some deep games, most of them are not. But asking for every game to be deep is like asking every song to win a Grammy or every movie to get an Oscar; the simple fact is that not every video game is great. The video game industry has had its share of flops (Duke Nukem Forever) and senseless titles (COD MW3), just as with any other art form. Every video game shouldn't be expected to be a masterpiece.

5. "What does videogames provide aside form entertainment"

Here's just a few I thought up on the spot
  • they let relatively introverted people interact and be social in an environment they feel comfortable in
  • they can teach you advance problem solving skills
  • they teach people how to work towards and achieve a goal
  • they touch a multitude of idea that can make a player think about them in a different way
  • they can teach players about real world subjects, be it math or terrorism
  • they can lead players to have much more strategic thinking
6. "For man students, Art is their prime motivation for coming to school whereas kids do not complete their homework because they are too busy playing video games" (and you go on further to talk about video game addiction)

First and foremost, just because someone is addict to something or not does not determine whether it qualifies as an art; they have no correlation. You argue that people go to school for other arts, video games only take away from school. The fact is that people are going to school for video games every day and getting degrees in everything from video game design to production. There's no doubt that schools have embraced video games as a new art.

Thanks for responding to my initial argument and I wish you the best of luck in your response!
LaL36

Con

Video games can give deep insights

"While I agree with this point, I don't see it as a valid argument for saying that video games are not an art."

Whether people agree with you or not about video games being an art, it is obviously not taking over regular art and is "the new art" based on the statement we both agree on.

"Developers spend years working on a game, spending more time than they have to so that their game is amazing."

How does this prove that they intend to give deep insights. They spend most of their time making it fun not so we can learn a lesson.

"There are tons of books and movies that very loosely resemble our way of life, yet still are deep."

True, but my point was that the majority of people playing video games, voters out there who play video games correct me if I'm wrong, will not say "How would I like it if he did that to me."

"the go to game series for anyone opposed to video games"

I'm assuming you think that I am against video games and that is a false statement. I believe they haven't contributed to society aside from providing some people with money but I like some video games like Grand theft Auto. Call of Duty, Pac Man, Galaga, Doodle Jump. None of these games I have asked myself "How would I like it if they did that to me?

"they're might be some deep games"

It doesn't matter that there might be some deep insights within some games. But there is no doubt that video games, for most people, is not a reference for insight. Now, let me tell you what is: Literature books, Religious books, philosophers writings etc.

"not every video game is great."

Grand Theft Auto is actually a really popular game a quick Google search will prove my point. One of the most popular games out there is Call of Duty. What deep insights does it give you?

Video games can be interpreted differently

dropped

Video games are art

I'm assuming you agree with what I said.

Video games sound great

"they let relatively introverted people interact and be social in an environment they feel comfortable in"

Whoa!!!!!!! You think this is good?! For people who are shy just crawl in their room and play video games instead of being with friends. I'm inferring you are not a very social person.

"they can teach you advance problem solving skills"

Can you elaborate a little? Do you mean everyday problems that come up? If so, being in your room playing video games doesn't help. Reading books might and studying the problem.

"they teach people how to work towards and achieve a goal"

How?

"they touch a multitude of idea that can make a player think about them in a different way"

So does literature and hearing different Ideas

"they can teach players about real world subjects, be it math or terrorism"

So does school

"they can lead players to have much more strategic thinking"

So does sports which all parents prefer over playing video games because they like their kids being active.

So far no legit points of what video games provided

"just because someone is addict to something or not does not determine whether it qualifies as an art"

Fine, but if they were to become the new art it would be bad because of the many addictions and bad things video games have caused.

"The fact is that people are going to school for video games every day"

What are you talking about there is no video games class?! Video games have no academic benefit I really hope everybody agrees with that. This is not a fact.

"There's no doubt that schools have embraced video games as a new art."

Do you see in art classes any video games? I'm pretty sure literature teachers tell their kids to read and not play video games. I'm sure that all teachers say no video games until you finish your homework. If you would like to convince me that teachers "embrace video games" give me proof.




Debate Round No. 2
ellpa

Pro

ellpa forfeited this round.
LaL36

Con

I'm not sure which comments to address so I will address all of them.


"Answer those questions and you'll understand my argument."


First, I will state your questions: "Does literature have a monopoly on expanding people's ideas? Is it the only way that people can learn something? And is it nearly half as effective to read something, as it is to live it?"

Now, the title of this is "Video games are the new art" This isn't relevant to the title and to your introduction. Of course I brought it up and thereby you coming to ask these questions but, I don't think you could say I'll understand your entire argument from just those questions. As for each question: "Does literature have a monopoly on expanding people's ideas?"

As of now, most people and teachers, will continue to express literature being the prime source of people's ideas. At least this is what they are trying to influence kids. When you read in school, often teachers will tell the kids look for a deeper meaning hence, expanding their ideas. When children play video games, no one influences them to think like that. Whether they should or shouldn't is a debate I would not like to get into. But this must be noted and is a fact for the majority of people.


"Is it the only way that people can learn something?"

What made you think I said that? Please quote where I said that. I don't think at all literature is the only way people can learn something. And most popular literature books do not possess academic benefit but more spiritual benefit and morals. If you would be able to say what you said above, I could ask you "Is video games the only way that people can learn something?" But of course you meant to say that sometimes you could learn something academically on the side although I disagree with you.

"And is it nearly half as effective to read something, as it is to live it?"

1) You are still not living it by playing video games just because of good graphics. It's like saying you're living it because of good imagery. Of course people reading novels will often say, "It's like I'm living what happened" but it's just an expression. 2) That is an opinion and I agree with you but not in all cases. It's good to read about something or maybe even play a video game before you live it. I asked the same thing in my previous debate and opponent made a good point so I will quote him "you probably have never read the book "Desert Flower" but ill break it down for you to the basics. Its about a Somali girl dealing with her genital mutilation by her father who runs away from her home searching for truth.

Now when you said 'experience helps you deal with it, not reading about it', tell me Pro, when was the last time you had to deal with your genitals being mutilated? Would reading about genital mutilation still have an impact on how you would deal with? Experiencing it first hand would be far more emotional but reading about it would still have an impact on your perception over the matter, and that cannot be denied..."

"'living' it is entirely different." Okay and I will stress the answer to your point again: Playing video games is not living it. Playing video games is not living it I will say it in Spanish jugar juegos de video, no está viviendo get the picture.

"when someone enjoys something, they're much more receptive to it."

Name me common video games kids "enjoy". I bet you very few of them have academic benefit. No one is their to explain to them what academic topics come up in the video game if there is. The child might not be capable of understanding it.

"The potential to teach people with video games is enormous and if ever harnessed effectively, could change how everyone learns on a day to day basis."

I'm going to focus on the word "if". As of now they aren't. There are few like leap frog, or jump start but those aren't extremely popular nor do they have benefit for a little older kids over 8.

"I challenge you to find a sport that is more strategic than games like Starcraft 2"

This is off the top of my head. Basketball: I'll name you zones, which are strategies. 2-3 zone, 3-2 zone 1-3-1 zone, box-1 zone, diamond-1 zone... This is all strategic thinking. Football: The best quarter backs like Aaron Rogers (Best in the league) or Drew Breeze (Good luck on Sunday) are strategic thinkers. They have to think of hundreds of plays. The list goes on and on.

"the website of a college only for video games"

1)Okay, there is a football school. Does that mean football has academic benefit? Of course not. 2) I meant in everyday classes.

"The people who spend tons of time on video games would have probably been anti-social any way and this just selves as the best means of entertainment."

So parents should just give up and not prevent it and try to help their children be more social? A good parent would not give up and I hope the majority of people disagree with you.

"being online"

dependent on if you're talking to your friends.

"playing video games with someone else"

In moderation I agree with you but, if you just play video games, that won't make you very social.


"TONS of games have puzzle aspects to them,"

It might warm up your brain this is true, but it doesn't help you with everyday problems.

"And this is much better than reading it in books"

It's not because books make you think more.

"and Don is much more powerful than just simply learning."

Right there! Video games do not have "simply learning"

Your point on video games helping one work toward and achieve a goal

If you need to rescue someone, like you might in call of duty, playing the video game doesn't give you the military training or help you at all. (Aside from strategic thinking which is just a tiny head start in military training),

"it will be widely accepted as the art that it is."

They don't give as deep insights as the other things I have listed. Some video games give insight this is 100% true. But it is not a primary source of insights nor does it have as much insights as the things I mentioned.

"Just because a game is popular don't mean it has to be deep."

I said that because you said every game being great is like every song to win a grammy and a grammy is usually won from how good the song is not the insights. So that is why I asked my question. I didn't feel your simile was relevant.

"don't really know what you're trying to say here"

I'm trying to say that one of the reasons it's not taking over as the new art right now is because most people aren't looking for a deeper meaning thereby rejecting it as an art. The name of this argument is "Video Games are the new art form" meaning currently while you are saying it is going through its process of becoming a new art and you are changing your words at the end of the debate. Currently, it's not the new art.

"Yes the majority of game developers..."

That's why movies and tv aren't a prime source of insights and neither are video games. This went under the topic Video games give deep insights.

"For something to be an art it doesn't take a majority to care about it."

Well the majority of the world has to agree that it's an art for it to be an art so if they don't care about it, it can't be an art right now.

"and that's enough for it to be considered art."

Because the majority of the world agreed on it being an art which is why it is a mandatory class.

I thank my opponent for an interesting debate and I hope the saints beat the 9ers. (Please don't not vote for me if you're a 9ers fan. Good look to them too.






Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by ellpa 5 years ago
ellpa
One judment I really think you need to reconsider is that you said that basketball or football is more strategic than Starcraft 2(since it really dosn't have anything to do with video games being an art I feel fine to post this). You obviosly didn't look up the game, and if you did, then you barely gave it a look over before making a judgment. Do me a favor and look up the game, really do your best to understand it, then make a final judjment. (and beofre you can use your amazing powers of deduction, yes, I do like Starcraft 2 and I am biased. But so are you with sports, I would just like to point out)

Thanks!
Posted by ellpa 5 years ago
ellpa
Sorry about this, I was too busy editing, didn't see that the time was up
Posted by ellpa 5 years ago
ellpa
Does literature have a monopoly on expanding people's ideas? Is it the only way that people can learn something? And is it nearly half as effective to read something, as it is to live it? Answer those questions and you'll understand my argument.

"So does school" (in the context of games teaching)

Yes, you do learn in schools. But I stress over and over again this idea; learning in a classroom is one thing, "living" it is entirely different. You might not learn as much in video games as you do in school, but which one do you enjoy? The video game, and it is a proven fact that when someone enjoys something, they're much more receptive to it. This is why gamers will be able to tell you every character from their favorite video game series, but not be able to list all the presidents of the US (something most of our population can't do, before you try to use that statement as fact that video games teach people nothing useful). The potential to teach people with video games is enormous and if ever harnessed effectively, could change how everyone learns on a day to day basis.

"So does sports which all parents prefer over playing video games because they like their kids being active." (in the context of video games teaching strategy)

First of all, video games making kids inactive has no connection whatsoever to it being considered an art. Secondly, I challenge you to find a sport that is more strategic than games like Starcraft 2, look it up (I guess I could consider chess or poker, but since they only sort of sports, they don't really count so much to me).

What are you talking about there is no video games class?! Video games have no academic benefit I really hope everybody agrees with that. This is not a fact.

Follow this, it should bring you to the website of a college only for video games https://www.digipen.edu...

Thanks to everyone for reading this and I wish my opponent the best of luck in the final round!
Posted by ellpa 5 years ago
ellpa
form is a totally opinion of mine. But also note that since there is no real definition to what constitutes an art, saying anything is an art form is consider an opinion.

"You think this is good?! For people who are shy just crawl in their room and play video games instead of being with friends."

Yes I do actually. The people who spend tons of time on video games would have probably been anti-social any way and this just selves as the best means of entertainment. If there wasn't video games it might have been books or TV or even drugs. Plus, I don't actually view being online, playing video games with someone else, to be anti-social (but that's a debate for another time).

"If so, being in your room playing video games doesn't help" (In the context of problem solving in games)

If you actually think this then it just shows how ignorant you are on this topic. TONS of games have puzzle aspects to them, be it Zelda or Portal, that make you think through a situation, look at all the possibilities, do trial and error, and find a solution. If you read out that list in your head, that's the list that should be thinking when approaching a problem. And this is much better than reading it in books, because you actually put it into practice, and Don is much more powerful than just simply learning.

"How?" (In context of video games helping with someone learning to achieve a goal)
Once again you show your ignorance in this topic; what do think objectives are? Nearly every single game has them, including Call of Duty. Would it be too much of a jump to see objectives as goals? And in trying to complete an objective, be it capture a point or save someone in danger, don't you learn how to achieve goals? Objective based play based all around getting people to achieve goals, and the strategies they use in the game can translate to real life.

"So does literature and hearing different Ideas" (in the context of video games touching many different ideas and making a playe
Posted by ellpa 5 years ago
ellpa
assuming you think that I am against video games... but I like some video games like Grand theft Auto. Call of Duty... none of these games I have asked myself "How would I like it if you did that to me"

I do not think you hate video games, you obviously think they're a great source of entertainment and nothing more. But the games you have listed playing are all what I would call the uncultured games. Games like Call of Duty or GTA don't really have a greater meaning; they're like the big budget action movie that has alt of explosions to hide the lack of plot (I can't really think of a equivalent for Doodle Jump/Pac-Man, they don't have any plots at all). .

"But there is no doubt that video games, for most people, is not a reference for insight. Now, let me tell you what is: Literature books, Religious books, philosophers writings etc."

How do you think books have gotten to the point where people think of them as a reliable source for insight? The answer is thousands of years of books being written. People see books as the most insightful art form historically and thus give more weight to it. Whenever a new art form is started there's always a negative response; this happened with everything from music It televise. But they all pushed past that opposes and now are respected by all as the art form they are. Video games are going through this period right now and eventually, just as it happened for TV and music, it will be widely accepted as the art that it is.

"One of the most popular games out there is Call of Duty. What deep insights does it give you?"

Just because a game is popular don't mean it has to be deep. All you have to do is look at Rambo or the song California Gurls. There's no meaning behind them at all, but yet they're widely popular.

I'm assuming you agree with what I said. (I reference to saying that saying video games are an art is an opinion, not a fact).

Actually I agree with you on this. Me saying that video games are an art f
Posted by ellpa 5 years ago
ellpa
I just missed the cut off for round three, if anyone cares, this was it:

Wells there's alt to address so lets get to it.

"Whether people agree with you or not about video games being an art, it is obviously not taking over regular art and is 'the new art' based on the statement we both agree on."

I don't really know what you're trying to say here; to you think that I believe that video games are taking over more traditional art forms (something I don't believe)? What I meant when I said video games are the new art is that they are the newest art medium; I do not believe they are replacing any other art form. The second part of the sentence is even more confusing (is "the new art"- agree on); to me it seems that your agreeing with me on something, but I'm not sure what. Please clarify in your response.

"They spend most of their time making it fun not so we can learn a lesson." (In the context of developers making games deep)

Yes, a majority of game developers spend their time making the game fun and entertaining so that they can sell it. But this is no different than in movies and TV, sure they have deep shows and movies, but their primary concern is to entertain and get you to watch it. Same thing goes for art (pictures) and to an extent music. But they're will always be that movie or book or video game that will make you look at the world in different ways, or make you actually think.

"...point was that the majority of people playing video games... will not say "How would I like it if he did that to me."

For something to be an art it doesn't take a majority to care about it. Take modern art for example; I personally don't understand it, but many other people do, even if they're a minority, and that's enough for it to be considered art. I made a point in round two that art isn't what something that everyone has to find deep; as long a sizable group of people find the the work deep at some level then it can be considered art.

"I'm assumi
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