The Instigator
harrytruman
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
CapAhab
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Violating the Sabbath is NOT worse than murder

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/22/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 314 times Debate No: 85392
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
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CapAhab

Con

Thank you Mr harrytruman for the opportunity to debate you. Please note that you have not put any conditions. I will thus set the conditions:

Round 1 - Acceptance, Opening Statements, and Questions Only
Round 2 - Opening Arguments Only (No rebuttals)
Round 3 - Rebuttals Only
Round 4 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 5 - Closing Arguments and Closing Statements

I will thus wait for your first argument and will put my arguments on round 2.

Thank you very much.
Debate Round No. 1
harrytruman

Pro

The Sabbath is mentioned 4 times in the bible, murder is mentioned above 15 times.
CapAhab

Con

Please note that all references are from the Bible, I will not use human understanding to justify any of my argument and will only see what G-d (as per his words) said is worst.

First let us look at the ten commandment. The first 5 are directly related sins against G-d and the last five are sins against your neighbour.

First, Jesus said himself that the most important commandment is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: "Love your neighbour as yourself."

Thus if you break the first 5 commandments, it is worst than the last 5 commandments. (Which would be breaking the second commandant in importance as per Jesus "Loving your neighbour as yourself")

Furthermore, if you break the Sabbath, G-d mandates that you should be killed.
Ye shall keep the sabbath H7676 therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Even if murder is also punishable of death, in some cases, the murderer may flee to a city of refuge. The word for murder here is the same used in the ten commandment רָצַח

"Then ye shall appoint you cities to be cities of refuge for you; that the slayer H7523 may flee thither, which killeth any person at unawares"

But there is no exception made for the Sabbath. And only the Sabbath, G-d ask to have a punishment as a public example.

And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

Thus, with all those Bible verse, there is no reason to think that G-d is less displeased to break the Sabbath than to Murder.

Note. Sabbath was only meant for the Jewish people and for those leaving in the land of Israel.
Debate Round No. 2
harrytruman

Pro

Pikuach nefesh states that human life is above the Sabbath, hence violating human life (murder) is worse than violating the Sabbath, the bible also refers to murder more than the Sabbath, New Testament aside, but far more with the new testament. This debate was meant for between me and Talmud, the Jew, in case you had not looked at the link I gave you.
CapAhab

Con

"Pikuach nefesh states that human life is above the Sabbath"

You should have clearly stated that the debate was supposed to be with a Jew in the first round. Nevertheless, I will use the Bible as authoritative in this case to answer your argument. As Orthodox Jews believe the Bible to be always authoritative and to Talmud not as authoritative http://www.jewishvaluesonline.org...

Thus even if I am not a Jew, I can answer your questions without to much problem.

"the bible also refers to murder more than the Sabbath"

The word Sabbath appears 108 times https://www.blueletterbible.org...

and the word murder (the one in the 10 commandments) appears only 47 times https://www.blueletterbible.org...

The number of times a word appears does not necessary mean that it has more importance, and even if it would be, the original Hebrew word would prevail. Thus Sabbath appearing more often would be more important. As I said in my previous round, both murder and breaking Sabbath require death penalty. Some murders have exception, but not the Sabbath. Furthermore, a public example was shown only for the Sabbath breaking.

"This debate was meant for between me and Talmud, the Jew, in case you had not looked at the link I gave you."

I looked at the linked, but you did not specify that this debate was supposed to be between you and a Jew. No all Jews believe that halakhah is binding either. You should have specified Orthodox Jew.

Please counter my argument in the next round.

Thank you
Debate Round No. 3
harrytruman

Pro

"You should have clearly stated that the debate was supposed to be with a Jew in the first round. Nevertheless, I will use the Bible as authoritative in this case to answer your argument. As Orthodox Jews believe the Bible to be always authoritative and to Talmud not as authoritative http://www.jewishvaluesonline.org...;

I did, that is the whole point of the link!

"Thus even if I am not a Jew, I can answer your questions without to much problem."

Yeah well I'm a Jew, by lineage, religion, well, yes too, Christianity is only "Judaism with Christ" that's why we still have the Old Testament!

"The word Sabbath appears 108 times https://www.blueletterbible.org......

and the word murder (the one in the 10 commandments) appears only 47 times https://www.blueletterbible.org...;

There is a perfect analogy f this;
"The word tree is mentioned 328 times in the bible (https://www.blueletterbible.org...), whereas the word wife is used 1 time (https://www.blueletterbible.org...), hence, trees are more important than wives."

There is a big difference between mentioning something, and ordering someone to abide by it, and a difference between the number of times something is condemned, and the extent to which it is condemned. For example, Ezekiel 18 mentions murder as a obvious sin, but it never mentions the Sabbath.

"The number of times a word appears does not necessary mean that it has more importance, and even if it would be, the original Hebrew word would prevail. Thus Sabbath appearing more often would be more important. As I said in my previous round, both murder and breaking Sabbath require death penalty. Some murders have exception, but not the Sabbath. Furthermore, a public example was shown only for the Sabbath breaking."

Why did it order death penalty, I don't know, I will do research.

"I looked at the linked, but you did not specify that this debate was supposed to be between you and a Jew. No all Jews believe that halakhah is binding either. You should have specified Orthodox Jew."

I did.
CapAhab

Con

"I did, that is the whole point of the link!". We are not debating the fact that I accepted the debate. Now that it is done, we should go back to the reason of the debate.

"Christianity is only "Judaism with Christ""
This is irrelevant to the debate, we are not debating who is a Jew.

"trees are more important than wives."
I answered your first argument stating that murder is mentioned 15 times and Sabbath was only mentioned 4 times. I agree with you that the quantity of times a word is repeated cannot be use to prove or disprove that Sabbath is worst than murder. I only corrected that fact. As I said in Round 3 "The number of times a word appears does not necessary mean that it has more importance" to counter your argument of Round 1.

Again, you did not refute my argument, which were:

Breaking the Sabbath was a sin against G-d, murder was a sin against man.

Jesus said that the most important commandment is to love G-d and the second is to love man.

The Bible order death penalty for both. Nevertheless, some times a murderer can avoid the death penalty by going to the city of refuge.

Only Sabbath violation was shown as a public example in front of all the assembly of Israel.

You have not given any argument more than "Pikuach nefesh states that human life is above the Sabbath"
As a Christian, you do not believe in Jewish Law. Jewish laws are binding, but cannot contradict the Tanakh. In any case the tanakh prevails and my arguments are from the Tanakh.
Debate Round No. 4
harrytruman

Pro

The laws are not evil, or god would never had given them to the Jews. Anyway, Pikuach nefesh proposes hat human life is above the Sabbath. Besides, Ezekiel 18 mentions murder, adultery, stealing, lying etc, but it does not mention violating the Sabbath. In addition, the tribe of Benjamen was almost eliminated for violence/rape/stealing/murder, and Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed for rape/violence/murder/homosexuality, but no place was ever destroyed for not abiding by the Sabbath.
CapAhab

Con

Ezekiel 18 mentions murder, adultery, stealing, lying etc., but it does not mention violating the Sabbath.

The purpose of Ezekiel 18 was not to mention all sins in the Bible, but to show how the Wicked can be reconciled to go by turning from his Sins. "But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right..." The Sabbath, being one of the decree.

"The tribe of Benjamin was almost eliminated for violence/rape/stealing/murder"
The 11 other tribes should have consulted G-d. They only consulted G-d on which tribe should go first but not if they should attack Benjamin. And the law does not ask other to die for one's sins.

"Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed for rape/violence/murder/homosexuality"
Sabbath was only mandate to the Jewish People so this is irrelevant.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
I would like to say that I do think that Murder is worst than breaking Shabbat. So please take my argument with a grain of salt :)

Cheers.
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