The Instigator
TheRealSpassky101
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Akhenaten
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Viruses do exist.

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/14/2016 Category: Science
Updated: 2 weeks ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 368 times Debate No: 96998
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (27)
Votes (1)

 

TheRealSpassky101

Pro

Good luck to my debate. I will let you have the first argument.
Akhenaten

Con

We have all been fooled by the medical system. Viruses don't exist. Viruses are illogical and can't exist, purely on a logical step by step analysis of what viruses are and how they are supposed to work. Nobody has ever seen a virus. The ones you see on the internet are just computer generated fakes or they sometimes show pictures of hormones and try to tell us that they are viruses.

1. How did the first person see a virus and know that it was a virus without having any reference material?
Answer - They just made it up, hoping to get a Noble prize. That's how!
Debate Round No. 1
TheRealSpassky101

Pro

Thank you for your unproven conspiracy theories. I will address your argument.
1. Define how a virus is "illogical."
2. People have seen viruses, creating flu shots and even artificial life.
3. The person who came up with the concept of a virus discovered it like all scientist that discover things; he/she thinks of something amazing and proves it. This happened with Isaac Newton and Copernicus. To say that viruses exist and it is all one conspiracy puts the entire science community at risk.

I look forward to your response.
Akhenaten

Con

1. Viruses are illogical because they do not follow Koch's Laws.


    1. The microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease, but should not be found in healthy organisms.

    1. The microorganism must be isolated from a diseased organism and grown in pure culture.

    1. The cultured microorganism should cause disease when introduced into a healthy organism.

    1. The microorganism must be reisolated from the inoculated, diseased experimental host and identified as being identical to the original specific causative agent.


Note - No laboratory experiment with viruses has ever demonstrated or satisfied Koch's 1st and 4th laws.




(a) Photographing a virus is physically impossible. Viruses are too small and can't be prepared for the electron microscope. In order to photograph something in an electron microscope you must isolate it first, then dry it out and eliminate all moisture. Then you cover the object is a thin layer of gold. If you can't see the object that you are intending to photograph, then this process is impossible. You can only photograph the surface of a relatively large object using an electron microscope. Thus, all the photographs that have been published of viruses are all frauds.

Thus, photographing a virus is a physical impossibility. I know because I have worked in a Electron Microscope Lab as a photographer.

Viruses are illogical entities because they have nowhere to go to when they are not infecting people. Please advise me of where viruses go to when they are not infecting people. I have never been able to work out where this secret hiding place is.

The flu virus is a good example. Flu viruses appear randomly with no pattern what-so-ever. This is in violation of Germ Theory, which states that contagious agents should spread in concentric circles from the point of origin.

The alternative to germ theory is that bad diet causes disease. This is far more logical and has plenty of evidence to support it. Ever since the beginning of the agricultural revolution humans have been dogged by constant disease. This is caused by agricultural products which are unsuitable to the human digestive system. These include grain, sugar,dairy and alcohol. These products cause inflammation, blockages, dysfunction, allegies, heart attack, stroke, arthritis, headaches, cancer and more. These products account for 98 % of all disease. The other 2% of disease is caused by dangerous chemicals. These may include - chlorine, bromine, fluorine, cadmium, lead, mercury and arsenic. Many of these chemicals can be found in pesticides, fungalcides, fire retardants, pool chemicals, plastics and food preservatives.
Debate Round No. 2
TheRealSpassky101

Pro

Thank you for the information. However, there are some fallacies.

You talked about Koch's POSTULATES about microorganisms. You copied and pasted from Wikipedia your information, so I will copy and paste the entire paragraph that you missed disproving those laws.

"However, Koch abandoned the universalist requirement of the first postulate altogether when he discovered asymptomatic carriers of cholera[4] and, later, of typhoid fever. Asymptomatic or subclinical infection carriers are now known to be a common feature of many infectious diseases, especially viruses such as polio, herpes simplex, HIV, and hepatitis C. As a specific example, all doctors and virologists agree that poliovirus causes paralysis in just a few infected subjects, and the success of the polio vaccine in preventing disease supports the conviction that the poliovirus is the causative agent.

The second postulate may also be suspended for certain microorganisms or entities that cannot (at the present time) be grown in pure culture, such as prions responsible for Creutzfeldt"Jakob disease.[5] Viruses also require host cells to grow and reproduce and therefore cannot be grown in pure cultures.

The third postulate specifies "should", not "must", because as Koch himself proved in regard to both tuberculosis and cholera,[6] not all organisms exposed to an infectious agent will acquire the infection. Noninfection may be due to such factors as general health and proper immune functioning; acquired immunity from previous exposure or vaccination; or genetic immunity, as with the resistance to malaria conferred by possessing at least one sickle cell allele.

In summary, a body of evidence that satisfies Koch's postulates is sufficient but not necessary to establish causation.
"

- Wikipedia

Next time, do not cherry pick laws that have been disproven.
Akhenaten

Con

It appears that you have totally ignored the second half of my last post. I will copy and paste it so you can try to reply to it this time without being so evasive, hopefuly. lol!

In response to your last reply -
Of course Koch abondoned his postulates. That's the point that I am trying to make. All Germ Theory related postulates will be found to be false because germs don't cause any disease. It's a bad diet and toxic chemicals that cause all disease. As Antoine Bechamp stated "Germs are the result of a disease, not the cause of it".

Refer to leaky gut syndrome for further information.

https://www.glutenfreesociety.org...

Copy of last post which remains unanswered or addressed.

Photographing a virus is physically impossible. Viruses are too small and can't be prepared for the electron microscope. In order to photograph something in an electron microscope you must isolate it first, then dry it out and eliminate all moisture. Then you cover the object is a thin layer of gold. If you can't see the object that you are intending to photograph, then this process is impossible. You can only photograph the surface of a relatively large object using an electron microscope. Thus, all the photographs that have been published of viruses are all frauds.

Thus, photographing a virus is a physical impossibility. I know because I have worked in a Electron Microscope Lab as a photographer.

Viruses are illogical entities because they have nowhere to go to when they are not infecting people. Please advise me of where viruses go to when they are not infecting people. I have never been able to work out where this secret hiding place is.

The flu virus is a good example. Flu viruses appear randomly with no pattern what-so-ever. This is in violation of Germ Theory, which states that contagious agents should spread in concentric circles from the point of origin.

The alternative to germ theory is that bad diet causes disease. This is far more logical and has plenty of evidence to support it. Ever since the beginning of the agricultural revolution humans have been dogged by constant disease. This is caused by agricultural products which are unsuitable to the human digestive system. These include grain, sugar,dairy and alcohol. These products cause inflammation, blockages, dysfunction, allegies, heart attack, stroke, arthritis, headaches, cancer and more. These products account for 98 % of all disease. The other 2% of disease is caused by dangerous chemicals. These may include - chlorine, bromine, fluorine, cadmium, lead, mercury and arsenic. Many of these chemicals can be found in pesticides, fungalcides, fire retardants, pool chemicals, plastics and food preservatives.
Debate Round No. 3
TheRealSpassky101

Pro

You worked at an Electron Microscope? Then you may be aware with the concept of quantum mechanics.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The particle has different actions when unobserved. However, the particle exists, whether or not you can see it.
I recommend any viewers to read this experiment. It is very handy article.

No one can explain quantum mechanics, but it can be agreed that the particle exists as does the virus.

Of course, you are probably familiar with all of this.
Akhenaten

Con

Your evasiviness now continues to even higher levels. You are now changing the subject so to avoid the embarressment of having to address my previous statements. This is clear evidenve that you have conceded defeat and that in a last ditch effort you are trying to derail the debate into another subject. Well, its clear that you have lost the debate on whether viruses exist or not. Now you want me to demonstrate that quantum mechanics is a fraud also.

The double split experiment.

This experiment can to done using a needle and a one dollar laser light. Point a laser at a needle in a darkened room and the light from the laser will be split in the exact same manner as it is in the double split experiment. Thus, you don't need a "split" to create the interference pattern, all you need is an object that the light goes around. Thus, in the double split experiment, the centre dividing piece is all that is required.

http://www.dailymotion.com...

Here Bill Gaede demonstrates that the aether acts as a conductor of electromagnetic energy. His rope hypoyhosis is similar to my concept. The difference being - that my concept is far more logical and involves independent spinning particles of left and right spin which transfer light with both spin torque and wave energy simultaneously.
Debate Round No. 4
27 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Akhenaten 2 weeks ago
Akhenaten
Well it looks like I am surrounded by enemies. "No evasiveness is observed" lol! Pro ignores about 90% of my responses and "no evasiveness was observed"?
Let's face it, Pro got clobbered and was reduced to silence as his only viable defence.

Dunning-Kruger Effect? Don't worry, I know more about these subjects than any university trained numskull. I have a library of books on medical issues which goes up to the ceiling.

So I made one small mistake. My mistake compared to Pro's many mistakes is like complaining about a flea while ignoring a charging elephant. lol!
Posted by whiteflame 2 weeks ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: HumanityIsDead// Mod action: Removed<

7 points to Pro. Reasons for voting decision: I believe my vote was removed. Alright I will explain to you my point allocations. Pro has facts and details to back his arguments up. However con uses erroneous details as calling Koch's postulates "laws" and accuses Pro of evasiveness, however no evasiveness is observed. Pro definitely has a better conduct and grammar as Con even misspells embarrassment which is an accusation towards Pro, as "embarressment" and ends up embarrassing himself.

[*Reason for removal*] (1) The voter doesn't explain sources. (2) Arguments are insufficiently explained. The voter is required to specifically assess arguments made by both debaters. He does so for Con, but not for Pro. Merely stating that one side has facts and details behind their arguments is not sufficient. (3) Conduct is insufficiently explained. Misspelling words does not suffice as a reason to award this point. (4) S&G is insufficiently explained. The voter is required to show that the S&G of one side impeded understanding of the arguments made, and merely misspelling embarrassment is not sufficient reason to award this point.
************************************************************************
Posted by HumanityIsDead 2 weeks ago
HumanityIsDead
Either it's the effect you observed or he is just trolling
Posted by kylet357 2 weeks ago
kylet357
The entirety of Con's arguments are some of the best examples of the Dunning-Kruger Effect I've ever seen. And even whiteflame somewhat pointed this out.
Posted by whiteflame 2 weeks ago
whiteflame
Conflating fact and opinion is the problem here. You're welcome to argue any position you wish, but if you present something as fact, which you did several times in this debate, then you're removing your "freedom of speech" moral high ground. Facts are facts, particularly when they have vast amounts of evidence to support them.

No, I don't assume that medical science has saved millions of lives. I'm aware of how medical science has saved those lives, in that I understand the mechanisms by which those lives were lost, the mechanisms by which those lives are protected, and the mechanisms by which various interventions work. Assumptions are based on a lack of understanding, which you assume I have. Now, you assume that there's a mass conspiracy to poison the public going on, something you've made no effort to support with any evidence. That's an assumption, and a pretty large one, since you're assuming that every single bacterial and viral disease has been perpetrated by doctors in some fashion.

I've seen several of your posts, and no, none of it has provided any information that is actually based in fact beyond some facts about diet that don't explain anything regarding disease incidence or patterns. We've had a debate on this before, and you were similarly focused on presenting your opinion over engaging with the actual facts. Your lack of medical training puts you in the position of pretending that you are an expert without education, going up against actual experts with educations. You've got quite the mountain to climb to convince others. Good luck with that.
Posted by Akhenaten 2 weeks ago
Akhenaten
If doctors don't know what causes disease, then, they have no right to practice medicine. This is because I have had no proper medical training but have taken the time to find out what causes disease. See my post to find out further information.
Posted by Akhenaten 2 weeks ago
Akhenaten
You assume that medical science has saved millions of lives. This is a false assumption. If you give someone arsenic and then give them the antidote, then, this doesn't constitute a saved life. Firstly, the doctor should be charged with attempted murder and secondly the doctor should be charged with fraud.
Posted by Akhenaten 2 weeks ago
Akhenaten
Whether I am wrong or not is irrelevant. Democracy is about voicing your opinion. Totalitarianism is about not allowing people to voice their opinion. I can clearly see which side of the fence that you are standing on.

Voltaire or Evelyn Beatrice Hall - "I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It"
Posted by whiteflame 2 weeks ago
whiteflame
...I don't run the site, Akhenaten. I assist in moderating it, which apparently has been beneficial to you on a debate where you treat my profession and hundreds of years of life saving revolutionary research as completely untrue. If you report the vote that's up, like the others, I will assess it and likely remove it because what I do as moderator has no connection to what I do as a scientist. I chose to award no points because I strongly feel that what I do as a judge should have no connection to my personal knowledge or feelings.

But I will be clear about this: you are wrong, your claims are false and dangerous, and you have no place arguing anything scientific.
Posted by TheRealSpassky101 2 weeks ago
TheRealSpassky101
Did you know that conspiracy theorists are the most likely to be hospitalized?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 2 weeks ago
whiteflame
TheRealSpassky101AkhenatenTied
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Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: I choose not to award points on this debate. Pro barely argues the issue, dropping a great deal of arguments from Con and mostly responding with a quote that does little to advance his case and assertions regarding electron microscopy. Your goal was not to rebut Koch's postulates - it was to support the existence of viruses. Merely stating that it's obvious that they exist isn't good enough. Con's case is largely untouched, but functions based chiefly on anecdotal assertions. He merely states his perception of disease spread and how it must work, then argues that germ theory doesn't apply well to viruses, and argued that viruses can't be visualized. None of this is proof that viruses don't exist (and some of it is completely false). Merely stating that there are problems with the application of disease theories and expectations to viruses does not invalidate their existence. Lacking that, neither side has an argument supporting their position.