The Instigator
Knaveslayer99
Pro (for)
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The Contender
RonPaulConservative
Con (against)
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Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov [Lenin] Vs [Your Choice] [Political Debate]

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/27/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 169 times Debate No: 96448
Debate Rounds (5)
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Knaveslayer99

Pro

Hello this Debate is to compare two politicians or Revolutionaries [Lenin] Vs. [My Opponent's Choice] and we will argue who the better politician/Revolutionary was in terms of what they did, accomplished and their policies. If you have any questions please just leave a comment and I will get back to you.

R1: Acceptance
R2: Opening Arguments
R3: Counter-Arguments
R4: Final Argument
R5: Conclusion/Ending Statement

Let's try to have fun :)
RonPaulConservative

Con

Yes, I accept, my politician will be Andrew Jackson.
Debate Round No. 1
Knaveslayer99

Pro

I would like to thank Con for accepting this Debate.

I will begin my arrangement by stating who Vladimir Illyich Ulyanov was and what his accomplishments were.

Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov aka Lenin was a Russian revolutionary who overthrew the Russian government with the help of his Bolshevik party and their allies and thus installed a Communist State and Government.

While growing up Lenin had at first had no interest in politics however it wasn't until May 20th 1887 that Lenin would suffer a personal loss the loss of his brother Aleksandr Ilyich Ulyanov who was sentenced to death by Tsar Nicholas The Second who had him sentenced to death for Revolutionary activity. After watching his brothers execution [Hanging] Lenin went on to find what his brother had been up to. It was here that Lenin would encounter the works of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels Author and Co-Author of the Communist Manifesto. Lenin would go on to read the works of Marx and would begin to see what his brother was fighting for and thus Lenin decided to continue what his brother had tried to start.

Lenin quickly met people with very similar ideas to his and shared his views with Marxism these people would help later form the Bolshevik Party. Lenin would later find himself in life arrested and exiled multiple times as a result of his revolutionary work and ideas however Lenin would meet his future wife while in exile although in exile Lenin would keep in touch with other underground socialist groups in Russia. In 1917 Lenin would return to Russia in what would be known as the October Revolution [Despite it happening in November] this would be one of Lenin's greatest moments as he was able to overthrow the corrupt government. Once in power Lenin made a lot of changes and had to make some horrible decisions that although he did not want to do them he was the only one who could deal with it.

I'll now list a few of Lenin's accomplishments:
Bread, Land and Peace For The People.
Everyone got a Shelter over their head.
Gays were treated as equals and were allowed to work in the government.
Overthrew a corrupt government.
Pulled Russia out of World War I [Which was something the Russian people loved him for]
Wrote numerous economic/political books.
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These were a few things that the Russian people loved about him however he was short lived as he would die on the 21st of January 1924. Lenin was a true man of the people he was more than happy to give speeches in public despite the risk which became a quick reality after Lenin was shot during one of his speeches but even that was not enough to stop him and he continued to give speeches despite being shot a second time. Upon Lenin's death people from all across the Soviet Union came to see him one last time a majority of the Bolshevik Party was also present notably Stalin and Trotsky. It is also worth noting that Petrograd was renamed Leningrad in his honor along with hundreds of Statues of Lenin that were erect after his death in his honor.

Lenin devoted his life to bringing Communism to a country that needed it most and when it's cries became loud enough he answered the door creating policies that protected the Russian Workers from exploitation, building more homes for the Russian people to live in. Providing bread for all of the Russian people who were starving, Lenin was known to be a fierce Politician always trying to spread the Communist Ideology across the world or at least that's what he wanted to do before his to early death.

I'll quickly do a short list of his Policies :
Better working condition for the Russian Workers.
Women had equal opportunity and were able to get almost any job.
Gays were to be treated equally.

However Lenin's greatest policy by far was his New Economic Policy or as Lenin called it State Capitalism. Lenin created this policy which would still allow a free market and allowed private individuals to own small enterprises meanwhile the State had total control over banks, foreign trade, and large industries. This policy also introduced Prodnalog a tax on farmers that they could pay if they pleased with their farming goods rather than money this was a far better than the Tsar who forced his men to take grain from the farmers without letting the farmers have a choice.

That's really all I have to say on who Lenin was along with his policies and accomplishments for now. I will let Con make his argument also I would like to apologize to Con for taking so long as work came up.
RonPaulConservative

Con

Alright, so now I'm going to go through Andrew Jcksons ackomplishments and show everyone why they are so notable.

THE SECOND BANK OF THE UNITED STATES
The Second Bank of the United States was established in 1816 and was owned (as our Federal Reserve System is today) by the Rothschilds & freinds, this isn't a conspiracy theory but a historic fact, the US Treasury Department states:{1}

"This action left many creditors, including the London Merchant Bank, Baring Brothers, and the Rothschild family, with over $25 million in claims. They were lucky to receive one-third value for their claims."

What is the significance of this? Well, in 1836 President Andrew Jackson vetoed a bill to recharter the bank, stating:
"A bank of the United States is in many respects convenient for the Government and useful to the people. Entertaining this opinion, and deeply impressed with the belief that some of the powers and privileges possessed by the existing bank are unauthorized by the Constitution, subversive of the rights of the States, and dangerous to the liberties of the people...
"Every monopoly and all exclusive privileges are granted at the expense of the public, which ought to receive a fair equivalent. The many millions which this act proposes to bestow on the stockholders of the existing bank must come directly or indirectly out of the earnings of the American people."

And to this day, Andrew Jackson remains the ONLY person in world history to take on the privately owned central bank and WIN.

But the Money Trust didn't like that idea of freedom and liberty, so they threatened Jackson with a deflationary depression (caused by a decline in the supply of money), Jackson stated:
“You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the eternal God, I will rout you out.”

THE NATIONAL DEBT
The United States, prior to Jackson, had accumulated a large sum of debt due to the excessive availability of credit, which was due to fractional reserve banking and the massive flood of currency courtesy of the Second Bank. Anyway, debt is how the Feudal Lords kept their serfs in line, so paying down the debt was very important to national sovereeignty, and Andrew Jackson paid down the national debt to only $37,513, whilst it was $67,475,043 when he took office.{2}
It isn't exatly zero but as mine as well be- Jackson remains the only president EVER to pay off the national debt.

THE JACKSON CAMPAIGN
When Jackson was running for President the international bankers put millions of dollars into his defeat, but to no avail, Jackson won the popular vote in a massive landslide,and he did it by reaching out to the people. Bill Still writes:{3}
"For the first time in history, Jackson took his presidential campaign on the road, speaking directly to the people. This was unprecedented. Presidential candidates stayed at home during the campaign and looked presidential, while others did the campaigning. But Jackson had a message he wanted to take directly to the people.
'If congress has a right under the constitution to issue paper money, it was given to them to be used by themselves, not to be delegated to individuels or corporations.'"

CONCLUSION
Andrew Jackson is a very notable person, I believe he gave the biggest whack to the Hydra we call the money trust, in act he slammed it so hard it took 77 years for it to sink its roots back into the US.
{1}. https://www.treasury.gov...
{2}. http://www.polidiotic.com...
{3}. "No more Naional Debt," by Bill Still, Chapter 16, page 102.

Debate Round No. 2
Knaveslayer99

Pro

Thank you Con for your argument.

I will now Counter-Argue this argument and state how Lenin is far more significant.

While it is true that Andrew Jackson did some amazing things and his accomplishments are notable I say they simply pale in comparison to Lenin's accomplishments.

Lenin changed an entire country that was backwards and still somewhat stuck in the medieval era. Lenin's views and ideas revolutionized Russia he took it from the Medieval Era to the Industrial Era he would be remembered for decades to come and is still very relevant today. He was so influential an entire new section and type of Communism was named after him that which would happen to be Leninism aka the Dictatorship Of The Proletariat. Lenin's influence and known stature went on for these following decades with him being put in the Soviet Anthem and statues being erect all around Europe.

I don't deny Andrew Jackson his fame but he is no where near as significant as Lenin when it comes to accomplishments and his political career. Lenin worked tirelessly and endlessly writing multiple books, papers and thesis on Socialism and Communism coupled with his views and the status of his home country Russia. Like I stated in my first argument Lenin even after being shot still devoted himself to the cause and risked his life in public shouting and giving speeches.

Lenin took on an entire country's monarch and won and even after that he stabilized the country even with people like Churchill funding the Russian Mafia to fight Lenin he was able to completely throw off the opposition and take full control of Russia leading it into the next era of it's life. While Lenin didn't directly Industrialize Russia if it wasn't for him there is a high chance it would have taken far longer to Industrialize than without his influence.

Andrew Jackson had a big influence on America but compared to Lenin and Russia it pales in comparison.

I would like to apologize if my argument seems very small currently a lot of IRL stuff happening but I'll do my best to still debate my opponent.
RonPaulConservative

Con

First of all Vldimir Lenin and the Bolshevik Revolution were funded by walstreet. {1} Which is a very intresting thing to note since the big bankers and Wall Street Tycoons put up millins of 1830's dollars towards Jacksons DEFEAT, they didn't want him to win!

Second of all, Jackson didn't just take on a monarch, he took on the Rothschild Bankers, who owned all of the Monarchs in Europe at the time and all of the goveronments in the world today. These guys are a lot nastier than Tsar Nicholas, and Jackson remains the only one to have defeated them.

{1}. https://www.youtube.com...

Debate Round No. 3
Knaveslayer99

Pro

Now I will submit my final argument in favor of Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov [Lenin].

Although Lenin was short lived when the USSR was form you cannot deny the impact Lenin had on the entire world. Lenin's revolution shaped all future communist revolutions across the world inspiring people to fight for the idea of equality. While it's true that Andrew Jackson took on the Rothschild Bankers and won compared to what Lenin took on it simply pales in comparison. Lenin took on an entire corrupt monarchy followed by a new corrupt provisional government and despite the odds he beat them both and formed the Soviet Union and continued to keep spreading Left-Wing ideals across the world. Not only was he against a monarchy and a failing government he was also forced to fight the Russian Mafia who at the time had the support and funding of Winston Churchill and once again despite the odds Lenin's new government prevailed and stood strong when the people needed it to.

Lenin didn't just defeat a monarchy and a government through revolution he also paved the road for future Left-Wing Movements world wide along with fighting half of Europe who wanted to restore the monarchy. Lenin took on the whole wrath of the "Right" and won creating ideally the first full fledged Left-Wing country united under Marx's ideology of Communism.

Lenin was truly far ahead of his time especially if you look at the polices he implemented for example his New Economic Policy and giving Gays rights a move that is clearly very bold to do especially during the 1920s. While many claim that Lenin "murdered" hundreds of innocent people that is far from the truth as Lenin had to do whatever it took to stabilize the new government that had taken so long to get where it was. Yes people died but if it had not been for Lenin who had to make the tough calls the government would have easily fallen and Russia would be put back into a monarchy which would doom the country especially around the time WWII would occur.

All together Lenin's influence and role in this world is simply massive with an entire form of Communism being named after him followed by hundreds of Statues being erect in his name. Not to mention how much Russia funds to keep Lenin's body in perfect condition due to how much of a major figure he is for Russia and Left-Wing movements in general.

Sources:
https://www.britannica.com...
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.biography.com...
RonPaulConservative

Con

Lenin was funded by wallstreet, Jackson wasn't, Jackson took down the Rothschilds, Lenin was property of the Rothschilds. I rest my case.
Debate Round No. 4
Knaveslayer99

Pro

"Lenin was funded by wallstreet, Jackson wasn't, Jackson took down the Rothschilds, Lenin was property of the Rothschilds. I rest my case." - Con

This is clearly slander as there is no proof that Lenin was their property because "They funded him" which is a bold claim on it's own if you were to actually take a look at history you'd see that Lenin got almost no funding at all except towards the end of WWI by the Germans who wanted to assure he would be able to undermine the Russian War Effort and to effectively pull Russia out of the war to ensure that they could focus on one front rather than two separate fronts completely.

My Conclusion: Lenin is considered to be the biggest influential figure of Left-Politics as he was the first to install a proper Communist Government without too many contradictions like Napoleon Bonaparte. While Jackson took down a very wealthy family Lenin was fighting a corrupt Monarchy, a corrupt government and even after that he had to fight other political parties and even more monarchies who attempted to restore the monarchy and even after suffering 3 gunshots Lenin in the very end of it all won. He defeated his enemies and stabilized his new government.

Lenin had to do a lot of things under-budget such as secret meetings and underground political parties who wanted to out the Tsar and it wasn't until the Germans backed Lenin that Lenin was able to return home safely and start another Revolution this time it being the October Revolution that liberated his people from a corrupt and cruel rule and was the founding father of all future Communist-Socialist movements world wide.

Thus Lenin fought multiple countries and ideologies and won, Jackson fought a wealthy family and their bank and won.

I'm not saying Andrew Jackson was a bad leader in fact he was a great one but he just pales in comparison to Lenin who brought down the hammer (literally) on Russia. Thus in my opinion Lenin was the better Politican and Leader.

RonPaulConservative

Con

I believe I provided a source for this in Round 3:
https://www.youtube.com...
There are even more sources for this if you want to look them up:
http://www.counter-currents.com...
https://www.amazon.com...

Now I'd like to address Lenin's Revolution, which is actually more of a bad thing. He usurped property from individuels and brought it under state control, and banned private property, a massive violation of property rights and individual liberty. He also established a communist goveronment which gave rise to Joseph Stalin, who killed over 20 million people for not going along with communism, disagreeing with him, or- just because.

The Soviet Union which Lenin founded ended up committing massive human rights violations during it's 74 year lifetime, stole the designes for the nuclear bomb from the US which gave way to other communist or otherwise nations owning nuclear arms. As a result the whole world was in danger of a nuclear apocolypse for 74 years, and stillis today.

If the Soviet Union, under Lenin, hadn't stolen the nuclear bomb designs, we would't have to deal with this guy Kin Jong Un who's threatening the whole world with nuclear war via submarines. If he hadn't done that, Iran wouldn't be on its way to nuclear weapons, China wouldn't have Nukes and neither would North Korea. The world would be a much safer place if not for lenin, so we might actually have a uclear apocolypse because of this guy. He was NOT good for Russia, or for the world.

Debate Round No. 5
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