The Instigator
CAPLlock
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
BangBang-Coconut
Con (against)
Winning
12 Points

Vocaloid music takes the essence of a human singer

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/22/2011 Category: Arts
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,265 times Debate No: 17173
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (9)
Votes (4)

 

CAPLlock

Pro

EDIT: 3 rounds changed to 5

Please(that means me too) try to keep bias/attacks away; "Keep this #$%@ in Japan!""Miku sounds like a dying rat!".


Ground Rules:


Music:Music is an artform where aseries of sounds (pitch, tone) make a songandrhythm (tempo). Songs can use any ---

Musical Instruments:Amusical instrumentis a device created or adapted for the purpose of making musical sounds.I await for someone to agree to the following terms.

This isn't a debate of whose a better singer.
1st round is acceptance.
BangBang-Coconut

Con

I personally love vocaloid, and I think that this is an incredibly interesting resolution. :)
I cannot wait to have this round, and here is to a great one!
Ganbatte!
Debate Round No. 1
CAPLlock

Pro

Wait if you love Vocaloid, Why are you taking the side that says that Vocaloid doesn't 'feel' human?
BangBang-Coconut

Con

I love vocaloid because it doesn't feel human.
I am an avid fan of electronica, and techno music; so the electric and even inhuman aspect of the vocaloid music is something I greatly adore.

Vocaloids are capable of a range, and sound that human voices are not capable of; as well musical feats that are simply and utterly inhuman.

The song "The disappearance of Miku" is a prime example of this inhuman musical quality, where Hatsune Miku sings at such a high speed that it sounds as though the words aren't even real Japanese.

So I hope that answers your questions, hopefully we can start the debate in the next round.
Debate Round No. 2
CAPLlock

Pro

This will be a weird debate.

Well, Because the feel of a human singer rationally comes from the voice and dancing which Vocaloid concerts do both they have a sense of human in them.

I really didn't expect this to happen in this debate
BangBang-Coconut

Con

As a brief road map, I will be going Pro then Con.

Pro-
This will be a weird debate.
-(1) I don't understand what you wanted then D:

Well, Because the feel of a human singer rationally comes from the voice and dancing...
-(1) My opponent's claim is a causation correlation fallacy; they claim because the voice is an imitation of a human voice, that it holds the essence of a human voice. However where we to accept this logic, then it would be impossible to even have the debate in the first place.
-(2) My opponent's argument is unwarranted. They claim that their argument is inherently rational, yet they never give us a reason to believe it is rational. The fact that I am opposing this disproves it's inherent rationality, thus there is no substance to the first half of their argument.

... which Vocaloid concerts do both they have a sense of human in them.
-(1) My opponent's claim on concerts is also a causation correlation fallacy; because there is human effort, does not mean that there is human essence. Automated telemarketers have human effort, and even sound human; but there is no essence of humanity behind an artificial voice's recording.
-(2) As a bit of an extension from the prior rebuttal, the vocaloid songs are too perfect. Because they are digital voices, there are no imperfections to the songs; so called "live" performances don't have the quirks that non-vocaloid concerts do.
In a concert with a real person, you get a feel of their voice live, you hear the anomalies when they makes a mistake, you hear it in their voice when they run out of breath; a Vocaloid concert has none of these.
-(3) There is no person behind the voice at these concerts; it's either a (poor) hologram, or a video. The only real fun of these concerts is the interaction with other fans.

I really didn't expect this to happen in this debate
- (1)Again, I don't understand what you wanted. Just because I recognize that the music is not essentially human, does not mean that I don't like the music.

Con-
= Arguments =
Contention 1: Effort and Essence-
Essence and effort are not the same thing, and my opponent is making this mistake when presenting their constructive arguments. They assume that because human effort and image are put into vocaloid, that human essence is in vocaloid. However as I said while attacking their case, this is not the case; Just like an automated telemarketer, human effort goes into creation of the telemarketer's voice, and human likeness in an of the way the voice sounds. The voice is however not of human essence whatsoever.

Contention 2: Lack of essence-
Humans are by nature imperfect, and it is these imperfections that make us us.
Vocaloids are by creation perfect, and it is these perfections that make their music what it is.
Vocaloids do not have imperfections in their music, thus the critical aspect of humanity does not exist in their music

= Conclusion =
Just because their music is inhuman, does not mean it isn't good. We listen to inhuman music all the time such as classical music, techno, and instrumentals. Not everything with human effort in it has human essence; and accordingly the vote in this round must go to the Con.
Debate Round No. 3
CAPLlock

Pro

Wait in favor of Vocaloid. I wanted someone who isn't. Sorry for the fail post. I should restart the debate.
BangBang-Coconut

Con

:Um, vote Con I guess...
Debate Round No. 4
CAPLlock

Pro

So yeah a mix up.
Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
Vocaloid synthesis starts with a human voice. Japanese only has about 80 syllables, and a voice actress sings each syllable. The software strings the syllables together and adjusts the pitch and tempo. Vocaloid 3 adds a breathing pattern.

The overall high pitch is a Japanese preference. Women's voices are generally thought better in a high register. It seems a little strange at first, but after a while it seems right. It's something of an acquired taste, I think.

For comparison, here is the popular 100%-real anime singer Yoko Ishida:
Posted by CAPLlock 5 years ago
CAPLlock
yeah con.
Posted by Grape 5 years ago
Grape
I think I would be most worried about the meaning of the word "essence." I don't think the music is that bad and I'm not sure if I could tell the singing apart from a digitally altered human voice. The fact that I don't understand Japanese might make it sound more convincing to me, though.
Posted by CAPLlock 5 years ago
CAPLlock
Done.
Posted by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
There is some chance that there are only two of us on the site who a very familiar with Vocaloid, and I agree. However, maybe not.

You might try rephrasing the resolution so it's easier to understand what the debate is about. Maybe go Pro on "Vocaloid music captures the essence of a human singer." Make the first round for acceptance, so you don't have to prepare a case that no one accepts. Acceptance + three rounds should adequately cover the topic.
Posted by CAPLlock 5 years ago
CAPLlock
Edited
Posted by CAPLlock 5 years ago
CAPLlock
Anyone want a shot at it?
Posted by Kinesis 5 years ago
Kinesis
Pretty fascinating. ^^
Posted by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
Interesting debate topic.

For those unfamiliar with it, Vocaloid is a computer program that synthesizes singing. A "vocaloid" is also any of the animated characters used to demonstrate the music. The most famous of the vocaloids is Hatsune Miku, who gives "live" performances. The animated image is reflected on a large sheet of glass in the same way Disney does the Haunted Mansion illusion at Disneyland. That's why Miku-chan is transparent. The animation is pre-recorded and played back, accompanied by live musicians.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Krazzy_Player 3 years ago
Krazzy_Player
CAPLlockBangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's arguments were better.
Vote Placed by GMDebater 5 years ago
GMDebater
CAPLlockBangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct has to go to pro because con already was pro originally. Arguments go to con; however, because it appears pro forfeited.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
CAPLlockBangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro handled the loss well, other than that lopsided to BangBang.
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
CAPLlockBangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's interpretation of the topic was reasonable. Arguing whether on not one likes it is more subjective than arguing whether it is human-like, so Con's approach was more suitable for debate.