The Instigator
Fictional_Truths1
Pro (for)
Tied
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The Contender
Duncan
Con (against)
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0 Points

Voldemort had the right idea

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/18/2013 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,102 times Debate No: 35727
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

Fictional_Truths1

Pro

First round is for acceptance only. No new arguments in the last round. By "right idea", I mean he was correct in his mission to exterminate muggles.
Duncan

Con

Bring it on you pathetic half blood. You Know Who was a fool, and you will be shown to be his foolish follower.
Debate Round No. 1
Fictional_Truths1

Pro

Let's dive right in then.

1. Reconciliation

As stated in the novels they did not understand the magic at work. muggles have been persecuting and executing wizards for centuries, and have forced them into hiding simply because they did not understand the magic at work Why should wizards be forced into hiding, living in fear of the inferior muggles that only win because of numbers? The answer is, they shouldn't. Wizards have been living in fear far too long. If everyone would unite with Voldemort, wizards could take their rightful place as controllers of the world.

2. Natural Selection
Back when their were multiple homonids, the Homo Sapien muggles wiped them out. They killed the Neanderthals, the Denovans, the Mongols, and Homo Erectus. Why? Because Homo Sapiens were superior species, competing for resources, space, etc. , and were threatened by the other homonids. The same is happening with wizards. The reason that everyone knows who the first wizard is is because wizardry was a genetic mutation. Think about it. Wizardry is passed through bloodlines, but sometimes genetic anomalies occur again, producing Mudbloods and Squibs. Wizards are in fact a different species, a superior species to Homo Sapiens. It's time the fittest species wipe out the inferiors.

3. Pure-bloods first
The reason for this is preserving the wizard gene pool. If we let muggles constantly mate with wizards, then eventually, the gene pool will die out.

Duncan

Con

You don't get why Voldemort could never defeat the muggles. It doesn't matter if they cannot use magic, muggles still pose a massive threat? Ok, 1st question; where, on Earth, is Hogwarts? If it is literally in the little gap in Platform 9 and 3/4, then eventually surveillance cameras will pick up on that little portal. If not, since they seem to be able to fly there, wizards still must obey some laws of physics, Harry has never flown without a broomstick, he has never punched someone into space, and if he was hit by a car he would still die. Muggle weapons can still harm wizards, so Hogwarts would be carpet bombed by the US before you can say Avada Kedavra. Which, by the way, is a terrible spell. If you had to shout PUNCH before you attacked someone with your fists, I doubt very much you'd hurt anyone. The muggles not only outgun the wizards, they outnumber the, as well. And they do not have the element of surprise. The bureau of muggle affairs shows us that much. The muggle method of telling wizards from humans is primarily; what is 6 times four, or any school question, because wizards and witches are bred and trained for war. They have no education. It would be easy to spot them because of their poor intellect. And as you mentioned the neanderthals, remember that they were an intellectually inferior race, incapable of creating and kind of technology or even fire. That is why we destroyed them. And we muggles could destroy even your kind, because of our advanced technological capabilities, ones the wizards cannot even fathom.

On a related note, I dream of becoming a game developer and making my own game. After college, I plan to join a game company (I would love Bethesda) and submit the idea for my own game; Technomancer; the game where sci fi and magic go to war. Our argument captures that idea; would human technology defeat arcane magic? Yes is my answer.

And, on the off chance that some how the wizards have a "obliteratus technologus" spell, and humanity was defeated? What then? Does the council of wizards take charge, or does Voldemort and his death eaters rule the wizard world? The war between dark and light will resume, and wipe out wizard kind. Voldemort's war would destroy all life as we know it. So, no, Voldemort did not have the right idea.

I await your response, mage.

Duncan.
Debate Round No. 2
Fictional_Truths1

Pro

Most of Con's argument is basically muggles have greater numbers and technology, so they are the superior race. I'll address that first.

"You don't get why Voldemort could never defeat the muggles. It doesn't matter if they cannot use magic, muggles still pose a massive threat? Ok, 1st question; where, on Earth, is Hogwarts? If it is literally in the little gap in Platform 9 and 3/4, then eventually surveillance cameras will pick up on that little portal"

All it would take is a Confundo charm, and maybe the Imperio curse, to make everyone ignore it. Plus, magic can be used to wipe memories as well, with the Obliviate charm (http://harrypotter.wikia.com...). This would take care of any pesky surveilance.

"If not, since they seem to be able to fly there, wizards still must obey some laws of physics, Harry has never flown without a broomstick, he has never punched someone into space, and if he was hit by a car he would still die. Muggle weapons can still harm wizards, so Hogwarts would be carpet bombed by the US before you can say Avada Kedavra. "

Ah, but you forget that Hogwarts looks like a useless pile of wreckage to muggles. Their would be no way to find it. Also, with spells like Wingardium Leviosa and Confundo, they could smash air vehicles together and screw up the pilots, and destroy missiles.

"Which, by the way, is a terrible spell. If you had to shout PUNCH before you attacked someone with your fists, I doubt very much you'd hurt anyone. The muggles not only outgun the wizards, they outnumber the, as well."

What about the Accio spell? "Accio Gun" and the gun is out of their hands. "Stupify" and they are paralyzed. "Crucio" and they are unable to move on. "Imperio" and you'll have muggles turning against each other. "Incendio" and you've got a free flamethrower. Also, wizards could use the Muffliato to render you muggles deaf.

"And they do not have the element of surprise. The bureau of muggle affairs shows us that much. The muggle method of telling wizards from humans is primarily; what is 6 times four, or any school question, because wizards and witches are bred and trained for war."

A wizard could easily learn multiplication, or even develop a spell. What about mind reading? They could read the muggles minds and find out the answer easily.

" And as you mentioned the neanderthals, remember that they were an intellectually inferior race, incapable of creating and kind of technology or even fire. That is why we destroyed them. And we muggles could destroy even your kind, because of our advanced technological capabilities, ones the wizards cannot even fathom."

What, nuclear weapons? Have you ever heard of the polyjuice potion? We wizards could easily get an inside man, such as your president. Wizards can easily infiltrate security with hte Confundus charm, the Muffliato charm, and the Imperius curse. We could wipe you muggles off of the map.


"And, on the off chance that some how the wizards have a "obliteratus technologus" spell, and humanity was defeated? What then? Does the council of wizards take charge, or does Voldemort and his death eaters rule the wizard world? The war between dark and light will resume, and wipe out wizard kind. Voldemort's war would destroy all life as we know it. So, no, Voldemort did not have the right idea."

This argument is that Voldemort has the right idea. Just because their are too many people that disagree does not change the validity of his idea.









Duncan

Con

On your various spells, you still have to say the spell aloud for it to work. If you (somehow) get the president's hair and walk into the white house, they will 1; ask for identification, and two, ask you something specific to his family. If you try to open your mouth to say a spell, they will fire. Doesn't matter if you can shout accio gun in half a second; bullets travel at over 350m/s easily. And everyone will notice the dissapearances of people in the station, follow it through, and find the location in question.

But the killing part of the war is how numerous humans are. It doesn't matter how much you have, because countries such as Russia and China have massive armies. My final point about the aftermath is the final reason he had the wrong idea. The idea to start a war with muggle kind would lead to the destruction of the magic world. There would be heavy muggle losses, but the human race can prevail regardless. No infiltration, no armies and no guerilla tactics could win this war, and for this reason, the idea to destroy mugglekind is a foolish one.

Awaiting your response,

Duncan.
Debate Round No. 3
Fictional_Truths1

Pro

New Arguments:

1. Muggles destroy the planet
Like you said, muggles have massive technology. This technology exploits and destroys nature. Muggles pollute the atmosphere, cut down habitats, poison the rivers, and kill massive amounts of species. If we allow muggles to continue their exploitation of nature unopposed, they will wipe out the planet, and we will all die, Muggles and Wizards alike. If Muggles die, the Earth lives, and Wizards live. If Muggles live, the Earth dies, Muggles die, and Wizards die.

2. Muggles have no rights according to their own moral system
Muggles hunt and kill animals for sport. Their justification is that it is only an animal, an inferior species, and has no rights. Therefore, we would have every right to eliminate muggles because they are inferior beings, with lower life span, and no use of magic.

3. History
Historically, two seperate homonids cannot exist together. The superior always wipes out the inferior. Such is the way with nature. By wiping out muggles, wizards would be furthering evolution, and contribute to a better gene pool, a better dominant species that can co-exist with nature, and peace and harmony for all.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Rebuttals:

"On your various spells, you still have to say the spell aloud for it to work"


All you have to do is mutter the Muffilato spell, as mentioned before, and nobody will hear anything you do after, so you can cast as much as you like. And wizards do have invisibility cloaks mass produced. Not to mention the disillusionment charm.

"If you try to open your mouth to say a spell, they will fire"

Ah, but the thing is, they asked you a question, and if you look like the president, they probably aren't going to fire too quickly. Also, I never said you would have to be the president. You could be a general, a secret service member, a CIA director, or whatever. Just think of the untold damage you could do.


"Everyone will notice the disappearences of the people in the station, follow it through, and find the location in question"

Their are many things wrong with this statement. First of all, kids have been going to Hogwarts that way for years with no problem. Also, in the Chamber of Secrets, a simple house elf blocked the way. If a simple house elf could block it, than a full blown wizard could do it with no problem. Then, even if they somehow get through, they will have to get on the train, which will be impossible because their will be higher security measures in a full blown war with muggles. Lastly, my opponent over estimates the importance of Hogwarts. Their are at least 2 other schools, and even they are just schools.

"But the killing part is how numerous humans are. It doesn't atter how much you have, because countries such as Russia and China have massive armies".

Ah, but you forget the greed and tension between different countries of the muggle world. The wizards could "ally" with the U.S and western powers, or Russia and the eastern powers. Then, muggles would do the damage for them. After half of the muggles are wiped out from the war, wizards will easily conquer the rest, and have the element of surprise by turning their back on the muggle "Allies"

"The idea to start a war with muggle kind would lead to the destruction of the magic world"

So? Like you said, wizards don't have a huge level of technology to rebuild. They could easily rebuild what they had with the use of magic. Also, if you are referring to nuclear fallout, keep in mind that wizards have spells such as Wingardium Leviosa to redirect missiles, Depulso to send them away, Reducto to destroy them prematurely, and they can Apparate (teleport) away before the missiles even hit.


The fact of the matter is, muggles are a pitiful race that we have allowed to oppress wizards for years. Their own greed and taste for war between each other will be their downfall.




Duncan

Con

You are trying to morally justify Voldemort's actions as well as provide reason that he could defeat the entire world. This is wrong on both accounts. We live in an age where anyone can whip out an iphone to record something. I doubt that Harry is the only one to misuse spells at home as well, and the Durselys will know of magic and warn the government. By driving the wizard world into full scale war, even if they instill the human race with fear and paranoia, an army of a thousand at most has no chance against the 6 billion humans. It's the planet of the apes reboot problem; even if the plague in the film wipes out 99% of human life, we still outnumber them 100 to one. Sure, you will cause long term damage to human society, but that will only make them more violent. Yes, technology has caused harm to nature, but wizards have done worse. The time turner was a commercial disaster that threatened to disrupt the space time continuum and destroy the universe as we know it, which is a lot worse. Wizards have been known to hunt for sport, and even capture infant dragons to use for cruel competitions. (also, I thought Harry had the only invisibility cape, passed down from the deathly hallows brothers) and realize that evolution is not always the way to peace and harmony for all. If wizards destroy the "lesser" race, then eventually a new mutate will appear and wipe out the wizards, and the cycle will repeat. Humans have stopped evolving (in a sense, the new mutate has no advantage over the average human, and will not reproduce any faster, and so no large change will occur) because there is no more need to evolve. If Harry's magic is so great, why does he need glasses? Why can't he have magical eye surgery or something. History of war is not a justification for more violence, and so Voldemprt would only be continuing a cycle of violence, no better than humans.
Debate Round No. 4
Fictional_Truths1

Pro

Remember Con, the last round is for rebuttal only. No new arguments. I suggest you label your rebuttals just so there is no confusion among the voters. Also, I enjoy your game idea. It would probably work out really well, just not if you give the magical side of the game the exact same properties as the Harry Potter wizarding world.

"We live in an age where anyone can wipe out an iphone and record something"

While this is certainly true, their is something else we must consider. Magic, of any kind renders such a device useless (http://harrypotter.wikia.com...). Therefore, if somebody whipped out their phone to record magic, it wld be rendered inoperable.

"I doubt Harry is the only one to misuse spells at home as well, and the Dursleys [and any other muggle guardian of wizarding children] would know of magic and warn the government".

Ah, but you see, as soon as a child with magical capabilities is born, there is a Magical Quill that writes down their name, according to the education section of this article in the Hary Potter wiki (http://harrypotter.wikia.com...). Therefore, in a time of war, wizards would know about the child long before Muggles would, and would use spells such as the Disillusionment charm (to hide themselves visibly), the Muffiliato spell (to hide themselves audibly), and possibly the Obliviate spell (to wipe memory) in order to kidnap the child and raise him as a wizard. Muggles would have no such abilities, even with cutting edge technology.
This would lead to a crippling advantage to the wizards in terms of intelligence. Here's why. As you probably already know, Muggles can be born from Wizarding families, just as Wizards can be born from Muggle families. These are called Squibs. Wizards could then indoctrinate the child to think that he is one of them, and use him for intelligence operations. He/She would be the perfect plant.

"By driving the wizard world into full scale war, even if they instill the human race with fear and paranoia, an army of a thousand at most has no chance against the 6 billion humans."

First of all, this fact is wrong. If you look in the Behind The Scenes section of the Harry Potter wiki ((http://harrypotter.wikia.com...), their are 12,000 to 15,000 wizards in Great Britian alone.While this is still small compared to the muggle population, it is not as disasterous as the Planet of the Apes problem, whereas the Apes start with only 20 apes that cannot breed with humans. Wizards can breed with Muggles if necessary to sustain the population, as a kind of last resort.
Also, not all of those 6 billion people are fighters. Most countries will not allow women to fight. With wizards, a woman is just as good if not better than a man. All wizards can be trained to use a wand and fight by the age of 17, if not earlier. Muggles rely highly on infrastructure to build enough weapons for all of those soldiers. Wizards have no such weakness. All a team of wizards would have to do is use the Incendio spell to light things on fire and the Reductor Curse to render vehicles, building supports, small aircraft, guns, automatic motion sensing guns, and a host of other things a literal pile of ashes (http://harrypotter.wikia.com...). This will prove to be a damaging blow to infrastructure. The best part is, the Muggles can't attack the wizarding infrastructure, because wizards have none. They do not rely on infrastructure, because they do not have a huge population to support.

"Sure, you will cause long term damage to human society, but that will only make them more violent."

So? Without their precious infrastructure and technology, they would be nothing more than an annoying pest. Keep in mind, in Planet of the Apes, the only real advantage Apes had was that they were physically stronger but just as intelligent. They still relied on the same systems Humans did. This is not the case with wizards. The wizards rely on something humans cannot even fathom or possibly reverse engineer. Sure, they could steal things and try to invade, but wizards could just make more, and use locations protected by magical beasts and mental deterrent spells such as the Fidelius Charm, which makes a location intangible to anyone the Secret Keeper does not tell(http://harrypotter.wikia.com...) , the Repello Incimnium charm, which disintegrates any body that passes through the barrier it creates when used with Protego Maxima and Fianto Duri (http://harrypotter.wikia.com...). These can only be broken with extreme uses of magical spells, and considering that they are muggles, the barrier would prove unpassable. Wizards could permanantly keep an area once they take it.

"Yes, technology has caused harm to nature, but wizards have done worse. The time turner was a commercial disaster that threatened to disrupt the space time continuum and destroy the universe as we know it, which is a lot worse."

That just strengthens my argument. When wizards create something they know can wreak unreparable destruction, they make common sense regulations and do not use it except under extreme guidane and supervision. This is not the case with Muggles. Muggles are allowed to pollute whenever they want, despite their pathetic laws, and unlike Wizards, the fabric of Muggle society itself is held together by destroying and exploiting nature.

"Wizards have been known to hunt for sport, and even capture infant dragons to use for cruel competitions."

Con misunderstands my argument. I am not saying that muggles deserve to die for their behavior alone. What I am saying is, the way the Muggles morally justify their actions also justifies the act of wiping out muggles for sport, not to mention more reasonable causes such as (ironically) saving the planet.

"(also, I thought Harry had the only invisibility cape, passed down from the deathly hallows brothers)"

Hmmm. It's not that he has the only cape that works. Harry Potter just has the only cape that does not wear off over time, and is protected from wear and tear. Here's a source to prove I'm not making this up. (http://harrypotter.wikia.com...).

" If wizards destroy the "lesser" race, then eventually a new mutate will appear and wipe out the wizards, and the cycle will repeat. "

If and when that does happen, wizards will fight back until they are destroyed, which will happen eventually. This will happen because everyone wants to survie, but in the end, the better species will win. This is what will happen to Muggles, and what will happen to Wizards as well.

"Humans have stopped evolving (in a sense, the new mutate has no advantage over the average human, and will not reproduce any faster, and so no large change will occur)"

I disagree. Humans have not stopped evolving. If they had, Wizards would not be here. The reason that evolution has not taken it's course is because it has been delayed by the sentience of both of the species, who go against natures desire. In the end, though, it will be one species or the other. This is why Wizards must make sure it is them who survives.


" If Harry's magic is so great, why does he need glasses? Why can't he have magical eye surgery or something."

Honestly, this is probably less due to any effects of the wizarding world and more of a decorative purpose for the author/reader.


"History of war is not a justification for more violence, and so Voldemprt would only be continuing a cycle of violence, no better than humans."

Of course they are no better. The thing is, they would be no worse.

Conclusion:

Voldemort has the right idea because it isn't truly an idea. He is just acknowledging the inevitable fate. All of this hiding from the muggle world is just delaying the inevitable. He does not want to wait until the muggles have such high technology that it is indescernable from magic. It's nothing personal. Wizards are just the better species, and will take their place.



























Duncan

Con

The existence of families such as the Dursleys proves that many are already aware of magic in the world. When the war begins, the inspector who Harry asked the location of Platform 9 and 3/4 who had no memory spell cast on him (since Harry cast no spells in the first film) would just go and tell the authorities. Even if you wipe phones, people still remember, and if not, the governement can just check for cases of reported amnesia. And finally on the tactical side of this, so? Just because you can remain hidden doesn't win you the war. When exactly will the human race die out here? You'll only be able to wipe out humanity with full scale war, and no amount of memory wipes or cloaks can hide you from that. Humans reproduce too quickly to wipe out like that, and if you make them engage in war, then there will still be survivors, and civilians, because only nuclear war could wipe out humanity now, and that would destroy the entire world. Not even wizards can wipe out humanity now.

Now, on your evolution argument, (if we're mixing science with magic here, then anyone using an invisibility cloak cannot see, as light does not enter the cloak and they are rendered blind)
natural selection works with evolution. Whichever species reproduces and survives more effectively wins. Humans wiped out Neanderthals not with stealth, but with fire and spears, in fact, we don't even know if they fought at all, perhaps they integrated and made their own "squibs". But it was survival; the ability to live in both warm and cold climates, to create fire, this was the winning difference. Since wizards are still too few in numbers, they cannot win this evolutionary war, and why do you see evolution as right anyway? If we are on the premise that I am a muggle arguing with you, a wizard, then doesn't that just mean the new evolution will just wipe out you as well? This cycle of eternal violence seems flawed to me. Squibs are evidence that humans and wizards can live together in peace. And as a final point of rebuttal about the hunting for sport thin, neanderthals never hunted for sport, only for survival, as they survived by the skin of their teeth.

Conclusion;

This war would go on for hundreds of years because of the slow method of guerilla tactics, and humans reproduce faster than you can kill them. Eventually, humans will either have technology to counter magic, or harness it themselves. There is no real premise for wizards being superior other than magic use, because other than that, they just seem like really pig headed humans (e; Voldemort, all death eaters, Malfoy family, Snape (pre deathly hallows plot twist), the entire council who let Dolores Umbridge take over Hogwarts, Dolores Umbridge herself, the health and safety department for Hogwarts, the list goes on...) and life would be just as violent with them in charge, except without electricity, education, social security, (just see life of brian for the rest of the list of things wizards don't have) In fact, with wizards in charge, the number of wild monsters such as trolls and (I am not going to pull up a list of dangerous creatures, you know them) this will only lead to more death and danger. Communication which relies on animals will cut off ties with other countries and the world will be a much worse off place. This is why Voldemort would only have made things worse by trying to wipe out humanity (and also why the wizards should have just asked the muggles for help killing Voldemort, or just should have blown up Slytherin tower, killing all the villians of the series at once.)

See you next time,

Duncan.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Fictional_Truths1 4 years ago
Fictional_Truths1
Their you go.
Posted by Fictional_Truths1 4 years ago
Fictional_Truths1
You're right. Let me edit the resolution.
Posted by murdokahn 4 years ago
murdokahn
This question is far too vague. You could say Hitler had the right idea because he drank water and not poison growing up,
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