WAR DEBATE: Russian Federation (Pro) vs. China (Con)
Debate Rounds (5)
2. Each country's turn can range from about 3 days to 60 days long, so all actions must be in accordance with this time period. (DO NOT try to win in one turn! Take into account that your opponent is also a living, thinking being that can adapt to a situation.)
3. Morale is a key factor in your armed forces' effectiveness.
4. You may produce more military forces (soldiers, ships, aircraft, tanks/humvees/cavalry), but it depends on your military budget, your country's population, and how industrialized your nation is.
5. You may choose to invade or defend.
6. The defender makes the first move.
7. The defender's primary military objective is to remove the attacker's forces from the defender's territory. The attacker's primary military objective is to annex the other country, or destroy it (physically, economically, etc). Secondary military objectives can be made by the debaters if they wish. Fulfillment of the military objectives is victory. If either side fails to fulfill their set objectives, the voters are free to reasonably determine the winner based off of who was more successful in completing their objectives.
8. If a nation's capital is destroyed/liberated, this does not necessarily mean that the war is won; the capital could be recaptured. If one of the debaters destroys or controls the administration of the opposing country, OR if the opposing country is destroyed to the point of no administration, then that debater is immediately guaranteed a 7-point victory.
9. Every aspect of the war must be realistic and must remain within the parameters established by the rules and the title. Any unrealistic action and actions deviating from the rules will cause the entire action to be void. Any further deviation after the first void action will result in a complete debate forfeiture.
10. Weapons of mass destruction are NOT allowed. A WMD is defined as
-Radiological weapon or a radiological dispersion device: any weapon designed to spread radioactive material
-Nuclear or Thermonuclear weapon: an explosive device that derives its destructive force from nuclear reactions
-Chemical weapon: a device that inflicts chemicals designed to harm or kill humans/animals
-Biological weapon: the use of biological toxins or infectious organisms to inflict damage.
Non-conventional detonation of conventional weapons IS allowed
11. No allies (NATO, UN, Muslim Brotherhood, or otherwise) under ANY circumstances. Annexation of other countries or agreements that allow formations of larger nations and/or direct military intervention is NOT allowed. Personnel and forces CANNOT be supplied by other nations.
You CAN have military or diplomatic agreements and/or treaties with other nations (agreements not to interfere etc). Radical groups, militant organizations, paramilitary factions et cetera are NOT allowed.
Religion is NOT a factor. No economic sanctions from any other nation, but economic warfare is allowed.
You cannot increase your country"s population, nor can you use ANY method to allow the involvement of other countries other than what is specified. You cannot receive donations or economic support from private agencies.
12. Cyberwarfare is allowed. Electronic warfare is limited to radar/radio jamming and interception; NO EMPs.
13. The country chosen must be one of the 206 sovereign states recognized by the United Nations as of 2015. Former states such as the USSR are not accepted, nor are territory-controlling factions not officially recognized by the United Nations, such as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL, currently the Islamic State), and Gaza Strip, controlled by Hamas, but recognized by the UN as a part of Palestine.You cannot choose my nation.
14. Appropriate conduct MUST be maintained: no insults, cursing, profanity, vulgar language or trolling. Any violation of appropriate conduct WILL BE REPORTED to DDO authorities.
15. If you fail to follow the rules once, you will be given a warning and your actions in that round will be void. Further disobedience of ANY of these rules WILL result in an immediate loss of the debate.
16. The Instigator is Pro.
17. These debates are strictly Force versus Force; no civilian action is allowed unless Total War is declared.
18. TOTAL WAR can be declared only as an absolute last resort. Total war is defined as the complete mobilization of all available manpower of the country. In a state of total war, every able citizen either joins the military personnel or the military labor workforce.
19. All scenarios MUST be realistic; there MUST be an established reason for conflict.
20. We may either follow the date-time storyline format, or state the events that occur directly as realistically possible in a period of 45 days.
21. This is a Category 2 AOW debate. A category 2 debate DO NOT allow the usage of WMDs. Category 1 debates allow WMDs.
I will be Russia, and I will be invading China.
Russia is powerful technologically, but seems to lack the industry and manpower to easily keep up with other superpowers. The neighboring Chinese have much of both, and the acquisition of these resources could greatly help Russia in the power struggle against the West. Not only this, but if Russia was to capture any significant portion of China, this would expand the Russian sphere of influence into Asia and particularly Japan, a US ally.
Russia sent one of its not many drones (the recently developed Mikoyan Skat) armed with several missiles towards a Chinese ship in the Sea of Japan. The ship saw the approaching drone on its radar, but waited to respond to not create a conflict situation. However, the drone shot a single missile towards the ship (relatively minor damage to ship, but several human casualties) which resulted in the immediate Chinese response to shoot down the drone. Provocation being complete, Russia started gathering forces towards the Russo-Chinese border. Being aware of this, the Chinese understood that conflict was very likely and began preparing for it.
I urge my opponent to use Round 1 as his first turn, as the defending side goes first.
Any questions can be answered discussed and answered in the comments.
The Chinese need resources to fuel their massive manpower, economy, and military which can be done in two ways.
- Beifang kuozhang Zhuyi
The northern expansion doctrine. The army would favor this as the way to progress into the vast lands of Siberia for it's energy and mineral needs. By annexing Siberia or puppeting it, China can receive "superpower status" along with a way to invade and bring communism to America, become self sufficient in everything, and almost completely control Asian politics.
- Nanfang kuozhang Zhuyi
The southern expansion doctrine. The navy would support this as a way to annex the South China sea and Australia.
Here is some music and a very funny video.
The Chinese strategy is very similar to what Japan did in the Russo-Japanese war.
"Russia has believed it can bully it's neighbors into submission and has not learned her lesson from Turkey's victory in the sky. The tsarists now try to mass on China's borders which China will not tolerate - and thus China finds itself in a preemptor war against Russia. China will not meekly stand by with nukes but fight with the goal of saving humanity from the enemy."
Operation Xiao Hongjun (Little red army)
The Russians only have one way of massing troops to the Sino-Russian border via the Trans Siberian railroad. Operation "Xiao Hong jun" is aimed at the destruction or at least severe damage of this railway which would destroy any reinforcements and the food supply of the Russians. (The far east doesnt have the agriculture to support a million men in war)
This can work due to the Chinese being faster than the Russians in a war on Manchuria. (Distance and the fact Machurian infrustructure is superior to the far east) All the Chinese need to do is shoot missiles.
April 28 - two minutes after war is declared
Every other missile of China is loaded and fired at the cities of the railway. Chinese industry will be able to mass produce Russia in the long run meaning quick missile attacks wont be a problem.
Damage will be attacked at the Russian land in the Trans-Mongolian line, Trans-Manchurian line, Isturuk, any railway connect moscow to Valdivostok, Ust Kutt, and Never of Russia.
Continued bombardment of the railways with Missiles but also Howizters of the PLA. Guided missiles will be strategically targeted in the cities to inflict maximum damage. Railway guns have arrived and could to substantial damage to Russia.
Mass production has begun with China's MASSIVE industrial potential. Being "communist", unessesary factories will be temporily converted to munitions factories.
This allows for China to start using more missiles and destroy large sectors of the railway
May 1 - End of Round
Missile systems have been placed in camoflauge and fortified under heavy protection; bombardment continues. Satallite imagery confirms substancial damage done with the Russians still in their tracks and with repair being inpossible due to continued attacks.
Russian intellegence satallites would be knocked down from space using kinetic vechicles as tested in 2007 (1). This means Russia will have no intellegence on Chinese posistions as the Russian cyberarmy is weaker than the Chinese Cyber defenses. (More on that later).
With the Trans Siberian railway being knocked out or atvleast severly damaged - China can go on the offensive or fortify posistions. Meanwhile, Russia is now in a posistion where they cannot reinforce or more inportantly supply their men.
Operation Leng Huo (cold fire)
The Trans siberian railway being knocked out, China can now stop the Navy from supplying the troops or attacking in the way of Japan. Again, this is possible due to the Chinese navy having less distance to go and being more powerful than Russia's in general.
RUSSIAN PACIFIC FLEET
CHINESE FLEET DEPLOYED
1 AIRCRAFT CARRIER
38 FAST ATTACK CRAFT
May 2 - The Chinese fleet meets up and advances. Chinese satalite superiority plays into effect as the pacific fleet can be tracked from afar. (As taught in the maldivas war)
May 3 - Russian fleet found. The Chinese stay out of range as the victim torpedo boat is found shot down. It appears to have bombarded Kamatcha in a Kamizke like attack.
May 4 - The Chinese fleet attacks in the early morning.
RUS varyag, the only crusier, is one of the main victims as bombers launch from the liaidong peninsula and the carrier. Swarmed by fast attack craft and Outgunned, the pride of the fleet sinks without surviors.
The Other destroyers are all massed and outgunned; the Chinese fleet follow suit. Chinese coverettes and frigates fire in volleys and keep hitting the destroyers from the start Unable to withstand a never ending ocean of missiles, the last of the Russian Pacific surface fleet sinks.
CHINESE CASULTIES - 12 BOMBERS, DAMAGE HERE AND THERE ON THE FLEET.
May 5 - Destroyers go submarine hunting as the Chinese fleet repairs. To prevent destruction, the fleet scatters to ports in China and North Korea. (SEE DIPLOMACY)
Operation Huixuan Ti
With reinforcements almost halted/delayed (and even in the best of times Russia was never winning because of their logistical power) , and the waters being firmly Chinese, my next part of the operation is a seize against Vladivostok and Khravostok. These cities should house the resources and communication for the forces, although thats my guess.
April 29 - May 3
Chinese heavy tanks concertrate and break around vladivostok to surround the city.
An amphibious attack in the pacific as well as attacks from all fronts around vladivostok mark the start of the siege. Intense artillery bombardments, infantry coordination, and tatical hombing make their way.
(34 light dive bombers, 400,00 men, 246 artillery, 700 AFVs and 100 tanks. Cause Im China.)
Food reserves are located and are among the first attacked targets. The airport is targeted with fighters entering the fight, any SAMs are located with satallites and bombarded, and the Russian factories are bombed as increasing coordinated attacks bring woe to the garrison.
Chinese infantry "Spring" foward in all directions on a cue of intense bombardments as a way to neturalize machine guns. Even calvary get in the mix by frontally attacking the russians while the tanks take aim - essentially being meat shields. (Im China. Spheal with it :P. )
An encirclement in Kharabostok begins.
Meanwhile, Vladivostok's situation is getting intense. The Chinese have destroyed most of the oil stations and all of the power generators as the PLA hoists the Chinese Dragon on every statue fought and won. Food is getting short, Munitions are all almost gone, and the Chinese blast music frim their side of the border with loudspeakers.
300,000 men, 100 tanks, 200 artilerry, 40 bombers, and 500 AFVs make a offensive against Kharavostok. Tatics perfected in Vladivostok come in use as bombers take out the Russian machine guns.
The chinese forces open fire on the entire border and pressure from multiple points stack up against the Russians. Furthermore, each day the missiles are veing produced and used against the Trans siberian railway.
Vladivostok is being bombed to death as the airport is declared unusable. The garrison has no bullets and machine guns are all but a luxury.
Both cities, having run out of all the supplies they need, are attritioned to defeat.
100,000 Men, 50 artillery, 20 tanks, 1 bomber
Whatever was there as the cities were surrounded and couldnt escape
Operation Jiuba Jibua Eluosi (Bar Bar Russia)
Without any real supplies or infrustructure, an offensive along the entire amur river provides stronger defenses.
With the two giants falling, Russian morale is low. Much of their supplies are gone as China now has flanks to attack from.
2,000,000 men and 4,000 tanks take an offensive along the whole front. Supruse attacks from the coast press on the flanks for good measure. Again, an artillery barrage knocks out the Russian frint lines, anti tanks, and machine guns. This allows for the Chinese to "mass" around Russian lines and take the banks.
The operation is complete.
100,000 infantry, 12 bonbers, 2 fighters, and 34 artierry pieces.
I dont know what you sent, although I'm going to guess half of it didnt make it before the railway attack.
Operation Toufa wu
A suprise attack towards the kamatcha take place as 2,000 chinese storm the largely undefended land.
Operation Dianji Ainiu (click of the button)
April 28 - The Cyber army started hacking Russian radars and s-300/400/500 systems.
-Diplomacy in China is limited to appeasing India while persuading pakistan to block russia acces to China's flank while the offensives and defensives go on.
-The only worthwhile thing China did was bribeing North Korea with food and missile techlology (Secret stuff) in exchange for access to the country.
STUFF I DONT KNOW WHERE TO PUT
-Chinese forces began fortifying their communication and entrenching on the vunerable non amur front of China.
-Mongollia mobillized and all.
-Besides calling up reserves, 2,000,000 men volunteered for service. A further 500,000 were drafted and sent with somewhat weaker guns and placed on the Mongollian - Xinjing front while the 4,000,000 reserves and vilunteers reinforced the army.
-A further four divisions were added into the Chinese army as foreign fighters. Two were north koreans being allowed to fight under China's flag for money, one was mostly American, and the last was pan african.
LAND AND AIR OPERATIONS:
April 29 (one day after initial attacks):
Russia declares war on China.
Local workers are called to attempt repairs of railway stations and railways themselves.
I feel that my opponent over-estimates the capabilities of his bombardment. He doesn't name any specific missiles, but they typically have an accuracy of plus or minus several tens of meters of their intended target. Artillery is also known for general lack of accuracy. While massed use of both of these could indeed have an effect, it is unlikely that this would be devastating. The rail station may take damage and it would take time and manpower to remove rubble and allow trains to come in, but significant damage to the railway itself is quite unlikely.
The Trans-Siberian railway actually consists of two parallel railways, so even if the one closer to China was destroyed, the Northern one would still be able to be used. While in less volume, significant transportation of troops and equipment can continue.
"Russian intellegence satallites would be knocked down from space using kinetic vechicles as tested in 2007 (1)"
Not only did my opponent fail to actually provide a source, it seems unreasonable that all Russian satellites would be knocked out in one go. It would help if my opponent provided a source with this technology.
Russian reserves are mobilized. Older planes (particularly bombers) that have been inactive for a long time are being checked, repaired and re-armed.
Trains start taking the Northern Trans-Siberian railroad from Russia's industrial centers in the West. These trains carry mostly heavy equipment and machines such as tanks and artillery rather than men. For an operation of this importance and scale, the tank divisions are almost completely composed of Russia's T-90 tanks.
The main highways running West to East (seen in map below) are being used by trucks to transport soldiers from nearby regions to the area of Russia surrounding the Heilongjiang province.
Transport of troops and equipment continues. Anti-air defense systems such as the S-300 and S-400 are being brought into the area. My opponent said China "hacked" these, but I don't see how that's possible considering that the vast majority are located in the Moscow area, and are only now being transported into the region surrounding Northern Manchuria. These systems are in place to prevent aerial harassment of Russian forces.
This is a quest of massive proportions, and requires machinery that fits the scale. Russia begins employing the world's largest bomber (Tu-160) to bomb Chinese industrial centers and military bases in Northern Manchuria. The plane has a range large enough to easily travel all the way from the Western-most tip of Russia to Manchuria and back to deliver about 150,000 kg of ordinance each. The planes are sent in squadrons of about 5-7 and once the planes enter the area, they are supported by also 5-6 fighters/interceptors such as the Su-27 (Flanker). While bombing is generally inaccurate, the damage from such massive amounts of ordinance adds up rather quickly after several consecutive days of bombing. Within the next three days, it's probably safe to say that depending on the magnitude of the Chinese response, a dozen or so fighters would be lost and maybe a couple of the bombers, but it is up to my opponent to show how China could really fight back.
During this time, the Su-25 (Frogfoot) attack aircraft is also used. This plane has a range of about 1,500 miles, so pretty much any plane of this kind within a 1,500 mile radius can be employed. The plane is generally playing a close air-support role, but in this case they will be functioning more by themselves. Their purpose is simply to harass Chinese ground troops with a focus on the artillery units shelling Russian forces.
The Khabarosk airport becomes blocked from commercial flights and is dedicated solely to receiving transport planes with munitions and troops.
Long-ranged bombing continues. Active use of Su-25 (Frogfoot) attack aircraft also continues.
After a week since the start of transportation operations, about 100 T-90 tanks have reached the area. These are superior to any tank China has to offer.
By now, a significant force has been amassed just north of the Russo-Chinese border. The forces are divided into two groups, one around Khabarosk (North-East of Manchuria) and one around Never, directly North.
Operation Hammer and Anvil
The two forces attack in a pincer movement.
I'd like to point out that my opponent has quite grandiose plans for his attacks, but they are very unrealistic. He mentions that he used 400,000 troops, for example, to attack Vladivostok. He made no preparations for this and there is no way there just happened to be 400,000 service-ready troops by the city.
In any case, the Chinese forces located in the way of Never group are first subjected to artillery bombardment. My opponent seems to have made virtually no plans for defense, so when the Russians push forward in a very focused manner, the Chinese are completely unprepared for a defensive operation. Ground troops follow the tanks as the spearhead, pushing into key Chinese military points in order to cause chaos and eliminate the opponent. The close air-support is critical in clearing the path for the tanks so that buildings/structures that could be used as defense are eliminated.
The Never group moves right along the Great Khingang Range towards Beian and the Khabarosk force tries to move towards Harbin, but is stalled significantly because of the attack force my opponent sent. I cannot calculate the losses there because I find my opponent's forces to be completely unrealistic, but for now there is indeed intense fighting there.
May 8: After two days of fighting in Khabarosk, the Chinese force sent to take it out is seriously weakened under the long-ranged bombing and the defensive ring setup around the city, focusing on protecting the airport which supplies constant munitions and reinforcements.
The Never force moves through with more ease than their counterpart in Khabarosk. The group uses major roads to push towards Harbin, which is left with little protection as virtually all Chinese forces (indeed my opponent used massive amounts for his attack) in the area moved north to attack Khabarosk.
May 10: Brutal fighting leads to heavy losses on both sides. The Russian Khabarosk force is now too weak to carry out a large scale offensive as originally planned, so it has resorted to solely defensive strategy. The constant air-supply, as well as railroad supply, of munitions, food and more soldiers is what keeps the city alive.
The Never force has moved into Harbin, and instead of pushing farther south as originally intended, the group moves northward towards Khabarosk in order to support the group there and outflank the Chinese forces.
May 15: At this point, Vladivostok has long since fallen. Khabarosk is almost completely surrounded and Kamchatka is largely under the control of the Chinese. Russia has little to no response to the situation on Kamchatka.
The garrison at Khabarosk is almost at breaking point, however once again, the airport is the core of the defense. After over a week of intense fighting, however, the Chinese force is also weakened significantly. This is critical because at about this time, the Never group arrives from the south to flank Chinese forces assaulting Khabarosk. Chinese intelligence was able to locate the Never group several days prior to reaching Khabarosk, so I assume some of the forces there turned around to set up a defense, but it is not enough to stop the fresh, nearly untouched Never group.
The Never group coordinates with the group in Khabarosk to mount a large offensive operation simultaneously, to the south of the city. The Khabarosk airport is abandoned and all bets are placed on this maneuver. Since the Chinese were trying to encircle the city, their forces were spread rather thinly and were annihilated between the two Russian groups.
May 17: After a successful breakthrough, the two groups reunite, now called the Never-Khabarosk group, and push northward into the city to reclaim the airport and critical transportation points. China doesn't seem to have any significant roads or railroads leading to Khabarosk, so reinforcements are lacking.
May 20: The Chinese force in the area is rendered almost completely incapable of further military operations.
May 21: The Khabarosk group took massive casualties and was almost destroyed as a whole, so the Never-Khabarosk group is only a bit larger than the Never group originally was because the addition of the Khabarosk group wasn't very large due to heavy battle losses.
May 22: The Never-Khabarosk group pushes south-west again towards Harbin.
Heavy artillery pieces along with more tanks are flown into the Khabarosk airport, which are then moved with the Never-Khabarosk group south-west.
The pincer operation did not reach its intended effect, but still eliminated a massive Chinese force that was threatening Khabarosk. With the elimination of this group, the Never-Khabarosk group moves with relative ease to Harbin and so the very Northern areas of Manchuria are effectively under Russian control as more forces move in behind the Never-Khabarosk group to secure what is captured.
Little attention is paid to the events at sea, pretty much all focus is turning towards the ground operations.
May 25: Having reached Harbin, the Never-Khabarosk force sets up a defensive line around the city. Any civilian resistance is quickly punished by death. The Blagoveschensk-Harbin highway is used for reinforcement of city
Operation Duo Zhi Tuerqi (Juicy Turkey)
As my opponent has contested the air, this operation/front will be the defense of Chinese airspace. Now, this is the Chinese responce.
The Chinese begin copying the S 400 systems so generously sold by their Russian counterparts , along with the Sukoi 35 jets and Mig 29 jets (With China producing one from north korea in exchange for more food and licenses to a Chinese rifle). The S300 is also examined so that the Chinese can radar jam it when they get close to Manchuria.
The Tu-160 bombing runs would be easily spotted by Chinese radar as they are big and bulky. For the most part these would be blasted out by the HQ - 9 defense systems, along with S 300 and S 400 systems provided by the Russians, before they can even get to Chinese airspace.
Even if the bombers can somehow get to Manchuria, Tu- 160s themselves would be prone to anti aircraft Guns and fast attack aircraft, probably the Mig 29s. (Theorectically Migs are fast and could quickly knock out the bombers, than focusing its might on the fighters) Naval HQ - 9s would be invernurable due to Russian disregard for the navy and would thus destroy the Tu- 160s before they can unload most of their bombs.
Su - 25s and Su - 24s would similary be easy targets for Chinese interceptors, for instance J-11s are very much like the F-15s that worked against the Russians and Iraqis in Turkey and Iraq, respectively. The planes are old and Artierly units wouldnt be much affected due to being fortified (see round 1.)
Sukoi 27s were well known in China due to the J - 11 being a copy in essence to the Sukoi 27. These were ironically intercepted by Chinese copied Su - 35s and J - 16s.
Operation Yanggyang mingmei de yu (Sunny fish)
This is the preddesesor to an en-round stragety that will shotly be used to sandwhich the Russian expedetionary force.
The Chinese forces in Kamatcha take the peninsula and stop there, entrenching and fortifying posistions. The Chinese fleet, this time 30 fast attack craft, 1 crusier, and the aircraft carrier reorganizes and meets up. Most of the capital ships are at port or assisting the Anti-Aircraft campaign.
A false Chinese message is "intercepted" by Russia that claimed China signed an alliance with NATO and the west was coming from europe. This is simply to cause confusion.
The Chinese fleet approaches Vladivostok.
100,000 marines line up as they are transported from the Southern reigon and up to the Amur river.
An "April Fools" attack by China quickly turns less funny as the poor Russian defenses are assualted by all sides. First, the Russians are subject to intense naval harassment with bombers attacking what remains of Sakhalin island. Then, the Chinese assualt begins.
My opponent neglected his navy, meaning at this point Russian sumbarines were destroyed and the Chinese could land at will where they want. The PLAN completely surrounded Sahaklin before attacking everywhere, overwhelmimg Russians by sheer surprise and numbers. Seeing as no effort was put in defending the coastline or Kamatchka, nothing here would be exactly prepared to fight off a mass assualt. The island is blockaded, leading the Russians munitionless and starving.
Sakahalin surrenders to China after a fairly easy assualt.
Operation Pinnguo Zhonhzhi (Apple seed)
Here I will sandwich the Russian forces by landing at the banks of the Amur river and pushing diwn.
Chinese forces rest up and celebrate their victory in Sakahlin. A Russian counterattack here would be inpossible due to China ruling the seas at this point.
200,000 more men are reinforced as the millions enlisting in China finish up training. 80 ZBD05 amphibious tanks and 34 tatical bombers relocate to Sahkalin.
An en-Ruote attack begins on the southern bank of the Amur river. Again, the Chinese begin with naval artillery along the entire front- destroying much of the railways and Russian Artillery stationed. Bombers, escorted by 45 Mig 29s that fly Russian markings to confuse the Russian air force, attack radars and airstrips the Russians used at Never.
Sumbarines appear to Missile anyone trying to reinforce the coast.
A full scale amphibious landing, using 250,000 of the 300,000 infantry availible, takes place along the bank of the Amur. Being bombarded by the navy and largely neglected by my opponent, the Chinese forces would rush to take the potts from where supplies can be funneled in. Amphibious tanks make their landings to clear the Russian lines while infantry closely follow and take the important (Adbandoned) posistions.
By the end of the day the beachead and the primary coastal villages are in Chinese hands. Helicopters reinforce the general infantry to make it all the way to the Amur river banks in occupied China as the Foreign fighters are filtered in the lines.
Training of the volunteers is complete. 500,000 of them make their way toward Sakahlin as the rest reinforce the battered Chinese forces. All reserves are also now in the lines.
Meanwhile, the PLA continues to make it's suprise landing/offensive on the Amur river. 50,000 reserves in Sakahlin stationes are mobillized and placed facing the west bank, preventing counterattacks.
The Chinese finally are able to make a track all aling the amur river. They are given one hour of rest before turning south (the 50,000 stay where they are.)
740,000 still alive (mainly due to lack of Russian resistance) make an offensive on concertrated fronts with the tanks first breaking the mostly unguarded lines. Kharabrostok is again assualted by 20,000 men.
The Russian garrison, being weakened by the first battle, has less luck fighting the Chinese this time. 30 VN18 amphibious infantry fighting vechicles crash their way in surrounding the city while the airport is bombed by the Chinese airforce.
On the other sections, the Russians have mostly left and would be routed by Chinese numbers. Intense bombardment from the other side hinders Russian reinforcements as many small protracted skirmishes tie up the otherwise surrounding Russians.
The Chinese forces have started to "Sandwich" the Russians at harbin from the back, exactly like how they had done in Kharabrostok. Kharabrostok also surrenders as the Chinese finally break the Russian garrison.
100,000 men from the Mongoliam border relocate to the new front as it is apperant (from space intellegence) the Russians dont have enough infantry to attack via Mongollia. My opponent may choose to due so anyways but a good number of men are still there.
Meanwhile, the Chinese forces have sucessfully fought through the soft underbelly the the Russian force and have "Sandwiched" the Russian Never-Kharabrostok group. 510,000 men still remain of the force but more are promised by the Chinese goverment. The first artilerry also filter in the western parts of the lines.
The Chinese are now face to face with the Russians on two fronts - one in the outskirts of Harbin and one on the back of the Russians in Harbin. 10,000 more infantry is sent to garrison the north of the outflanking force.
Chinese defenses . Operation Gongfu Tianqui (Kung Fu checkers)
May 26 - April 17
The Chinese facing the Russians from the south start to fortify the lines by any means possible. Mines are laid out, Barbed wire is massed, CCTV is located everywhere, air sirens are placed, radars are rolled, trenches are dug, dugouts are made, wodden fences are constructed, etc. Even concrete is used in some places to fortify artillery.
Meanwhile Buildings of Changchun and the other cities are inprovised as sniper towers. Backup line after backup line is dug to stop the Russians under all costs
April 17 - to end of turn.
The Chinese northern flank simillary starts preparing it's defenses. Trenches are dug and Barricades are put up.
In the Amur river, two patrol boats move in as all brigdes are destroyed. The line is fortified as wood from the area is confiscated from the civillians and used to set up gates at the bank of the Amur. The russians would have to fight machine gun armed Patrol boats to be stopped by a fence, in which the chinese has punched holes in for body rifles.
Meanwhile, minefields are lain down in the northern flank alongside machine guns. CCTV and satalites will be used to ensure the sandwiched Russian forces dont find a way to escape their lines.
April 18 - end of turn
The Chinese from both sides keeps deploying more artillery produced, reverse engineered drones, and machine guns. Most of Chinese lines are entrenched and all of them were told to ready for an attack by Russia.
Chinese production- opertaion Hongse de Mao (Red cat)
May 26 - end of turn
The Chinese steadily recruit 200,000 new soilders from it's seemingly endless bodies. Calavary, being hurt due to the reckless assualts, see up to 500 new horses recruited in the army.
Meanwhile, the Chinese economy is pulled back together by the war much like America's was in the world wars. The Chinese have slapped tough sanctions on Russia, however, China can look for new suppliers of oil like the rich Norway and lesser Saudi Arabia while Russia is hurt by sanctions to get new customers.
Industry in China is now mostly dedicated to producing aircraft, supplies, small arms, and Artillery with a bit of tanks and alot of SAMs. The Shanghai area has taken up the slack of harbin by increasing ship output and anti-tank artierry while Vladivistok and Kharabostok now produces SAMs for China.
To copy the design and begin producing such a machine would not be a process in the matter of days. Weeks at the least would go by before such a thing could actually be put into production.
In regards to the HQ-9s, my opponent mentioned that they are naval and therefore would be fired from a ship. It should be noted that their range is only 200 km, so even if the ships were right by Huludao (closest Chinese shore city to Harbin, where the spearhead of the Russian force is located), the city would be way out of range of these missiles. Therefore, the Tu-160 can still function quite freely without fear of anti-air missile attacks. They are at risk only from jets, but as I mentioned earlier, Tu-160 squadrons are supported by Russian jets, so bomber losses wouldn't be too heavy from those. However the S-300 and S-400 systems may indeed pose a problem for the bombers, whose activity is decreased due to the risk.
My opponent mentions that the artillery positions were fortified, though I'm a bit confused as to how an artillery position could be fortified in days to the degree of being immune to air-to-ground missiles.
May 27: Khabarosk continues receiving reinforcements, airport there being fortified with anti-air missile systems and infantry.
Harbin continues being fortified defensively, reinforcements (mostly tanks and artillery) flowing in from Khabarosk.
Chinese forces in Kamchatka are ignored.
Russia cuts off gas supply to China (cancelling the recent $400 billion contract). Russia also cuts off oil shipments to China, which is another heavy blow considering that Russia is currently China's biggest oil supplier.
May 28: Khabarosk continues receiving reinforcements, mostly tanks, AFVs and artillery pieces.
Harbin defense-operation continues, trenches being built, artillery being setup and anti-air missile systems being calibrated and hidden.
May 29: Chinese fleet moving to Vladivostok is detected.
Khabarosk fortifications complete. This is critical because it's essentially the only link between the Russian attacking forces and the Russian mainland. The city is defended heavily. The Russian S-400 and S-300 anti-air systems are being transported here now as well, as it's relatively safe area.
At this, about half of Russia's supply of T-90 tanks is located at Khabarosk, and the other half in Harbin.
The garrison at Harbin (about 150% of what it was upon arrival) starts preparing for an offensive towards Changchun. This force will be called the Harbin group.
May 30: Massive Chinese force of 100,000 marines located, but their size was significantly underestimated.
The Harbin group continues preparing for an offensive as reinforcements continue flowing in.
The Khabarosk garrison puts artillery and infantry on the shores Amur river coming from the North, making landing from the river into the city very difficult.
June 1: Russians are indeed surprised by attack on Sakhalin, but there is no significant response. Because there were not many Russian forces on the island, an attempt to break the blockade is not made. Instructions were given to the soldiers to escape the island via ship if possible, but the blockade was quite thorough and most soldiers ended up fighting and dying.
The defense of Khabarosk (now very aware of the significant threat on the East) begins re-coordinating the defense of the city to be prepared for an attack from the East, South-East as well as continuing fortifying the Amur river entrance into the city.
The Harbin group starts moving once more. The core of this attack group is its massive armored unit composed of T-90s and older Soviet AFVs that allow for quick and safe transport. The group starts moving towards Changchun, meeting relatively insignificant resistance along the way as defenses haven't been prepared here. The group uses major roads and highways to increase efficiency and speed of transport.
June 5: Yesterday Sakhalin fell and came under virtually total Chinese control. The Tu-160 bombers (the several that are left) carry out bombing runs once or twice a day on the island, taking advantage of the fact that the Chinese haven't yet had time to transport serious anti-air equipment to the area.
June 6: The Harbin group arrives at Changchun.
Tu-160 bomber runs are continued, focusing on the coastal harbors to slow down Chinese transportation.
Wasting no time at all, the Harbin group moves onward, towards Beijing. The group takes the route through Tongliao, Chifeng, Chengde and then to Beijing. Along this road, the group leaves behind artillery and infantry to create a ring around Shenyang and the areas surrounding it, making it very difficult for any supply or civilian transportation to occur to and from the city. Also blocking in any military forces located there. The group is currently halfway between Harbin and Tongliao.
The supply line (mostly trucks and AFVs) extends to keep up with the advancing Harbin group.
Seeing the very real threat from Sakhalin, the Khabarosk garrison is commanded to send less troops down to Harbin and keep more in the city itself.
June 7: The Harbin group arrives at Tongliao, set up some defensive positions as a part of the ring to enclose Shenyang and then continues moving onward.
The Chinese forces "begin with naval artillery along the entire front- destroying much of the railways and Russian Artillery stationed" and then stop, realizing all of their rounds are falling short because the distance from Khabarosk to the coast is around 100 miles.
Never is bombed but again, there is little response from the Russian side, as this is not a critical point worth defending.
Decreased oil and gas supply to China starts taking its toll, government has to re-coordinate where and how the resources are spent.
Khabarosk stops sending troops and equipment to Harbin for fear of Chinese assault.
Harbin garrison (now very weak because the main forces have moved on) digs trenches and continues use of defensive perimeter set up by the Harbin group that's now at Tongliao.
June 8: The Harbin group is now about halfway between Tongliao and Chifeng, continuing the "containment ring" around the Shenyang area.
The Khabarosk garrison continues sending ammunition to the Harbin group through Harbin and Changchun, but keeps the incoming tanks, AFVs, artillery and infantry for itself, anxiously awaiting the coming onslaught that's bound to happen sooner or later.
June 9: Aggressive Chinese assault is made on the Russian coast around the Amur river. Not many forces were located there so the Chinese take over the coast-line very quickly indeed. Khabarosk garrison becomes aware of this.
The Harbin force arrives at Chifeng, almost completing the ring around Shenyang. The force stops its advance and prepares defensive positions in Chifeng because since Khabarosk is no longer sending supplies, the advance cannot continue without risk of flanking and failure. The Harbin group starts fortifying Chifeng and waits for Khabarosk to continue sending resources.
June 11: The assault is finally made on Khabarosk. The Chinese forces are slowed down significantly for several reasons. It's virtually impossible to continue advance along the Amur river due to this being one of the focal points of the defense. The massive artillery force set up at the city fires on the advancing and encamped Chinese forces, destroying equipment, men and morale.
June 12: Not sure how 30 amphibious vehicles could be the spearhead of an attack on a city with over a hundred tanks, hundreds of artillery pieces and tens of thousands of soldiers.
The defense of Khabarosk continues. Heavy losses occur on both sides, but it is indeed the Chinese that must attack a position that has been being reinforced and fortified for over half a month now.
June 13: Supplies continue to be flown into Khabarosk and allow the defensive force here to remain solid. The Russians begin to run low on ammunition due to the massive amount of Chinese forces at the gates, as well as the transport of munitions to the Harbin group earlier.
June 14: The Russian forces are pushed back several blocks into the city, but the airport remains under Russian control, as well as the majority of the city.
Outflanking of Harbin doesn't yet occur as such an infantry and ground based assault on Khabarosk couldn't have succeeded considering the amount of fortification that has been done.
The next part of my opponent's round was a bit confusing. Reason being, he just started fortifying cities and areas that have long since been taken over (he waited too long to complete this step).
Also, of course it is up to judges and voters to judge, but it seems virtually impossible the the Chinese force took over the massive, defending Khabarosk garrison in two days. Therefore his plans of moving South from Khabarosk cannot yet be executed.
He mentions that China begins looking for new oil suppliers, but there will still be a gap where there is a shortage of oil (hard to replace so much so quickly).
June 18: Vladivostok is under Chinese control, though not sure how realistic it is for the city to start producing stuff for Chinese military, don't think it has the factories.
June 20: Assault on Khabarosk having temporarily slowed, the supply line from the city to the Harbin group continues.
June 25: Having received further reinforcements, the Harbin group (now at Chifeng) pushes onward towards Chengde, essentially completing the ring around Shenyang.
June 27: Russian forces arrive at Chengde. Through this entire path, there has been resistance to Harbin group but little (no defense prepared by Chinese). Chengde is being fortified by Russians and continues receiving forces for Harbin group.
I feel like my opponent really godmodded his turn and made his army Virtually invincible (for instance having infinate supplies and somehow easily beating an army with an around two million stronger with relative ease), and also that he ignored several of my moves. For instance, I already started getting alternitive suppliers of oil since the first turns when I turned to Saudi Arabia.
Furthermore, "as defenses haven't been prepared there." Is completely wrong. I ecen mentioned how all the buildings were used for sniping and that the entire front was trenched. China had actually survived on Saudi oil for a long time (2) , so no large repurcussions would really happen. Lastly, Kharavostok has been surrounded anyways and thus the Chinese plan for moving south also would have taken place.
Anyways, I'll play for what it's worth. I strongly advise my opponent to comprimise on the sucess Russia could actually have though.
HQ 9s are successful agains the bombers seeing as unrelibale Russian intellegence apperently thought they were naval.
I'm not sure how Russia would make an amphibous assualt and make it to Changde. Perhaps he meant Chengchun?
Meanwhile, The Kharavostok siege draws down until The Chinese resort to blocking of food, attacking humanitarian supplies, and destroying the rails. The city is surrounded so the attack down does happen. 500,000 new reinforcements have arrived with the other 1,500,000 being sent to Changchun.
200 tanks fresh off the factories have been transported, in which 50 stay at kharavostok. 200,000 men from the Mongolian border also relocate for an offensive seeing the Russians couldn't have the power to invade Mongolia at this point.
Food shortages hit in Khravostok as the massive garrison cant sustain itself without food. Bombing runs keep hitting the food so that the soilders and population will starve to death. These are costly due to the S - 400s and are thus localized.
Multiple ships are mobillized. These are to ship 100,000 infantry in a coastal assualt once the Two front offensive starts.
Meanwhile, the Russian force sustains heavy losses (That it couldnt particulary afford considering how much Russia was able to transport and supply in China was very little in the first placr )fighting entrenched Chinese that also were ready. The flanking force has taken control of the Railways and have caused supply problems to the Russians.
The "two front" offensive preperations began as artillery moved to the front. As a distraction, 10,000 infantry made an assualt via Xinjing to the direction of Isturuk.
100 somewhat aging EE - 9 Cascavels (AFV) were purchased from Brazil as Brazil found a much needed cash injection via oil trade. Russia has locked itself out of the market- it's aggression against Europe had led to Eu sanctions (are those nulled by the rules?) and one against China led to an embargo. The Russians must now produce alot on their own.
25 T115s (howizters, mobile) have been purchased from Turkey at a particulary generous price. These were too be sent to the flanking force.
Fireworks rested good and all. Also a bunch of nice missiles.
July 5 - July 27
The "two front" offensive began.
From the Outskirts of Changchun, the Chinese launched an offensive on multiple sections of the line. The Russians, still reeling from the casulties, woulf be barraged form all sides as the Chinese navy and Air force started their operations.
The Chinese Air force met with the Russian air force as bombing started. Both sides were able to use Anti-Aircraft weapons, leading the fight to be somewhat attritional.
The Type 99 tanks, which could fight a T - 90 if given proper support, were used to spearhead the attack. Chinese reinforments came en masse from Beiijing with the Russians being outnumbered, out supplied, and outmanuvered. (See the rest of Turn)
The marines attack the vunerable sides of the Russian flank. Bombardments would shake up the Russian force, and the marines would make their right after the Southern attack.
The force would soon find itself at the Chinese coast and unable to press foward due to a lack of tanks, and at the moment would resort to entrenchment, bombing, and the localized raid.
25,000 men turned away from the north to assit Khravostok seeing as the Russians had no infrustructure to take back the Amur. The other 25,000 entrenched. Meanwhile, Khravostok has been starving with the airforce being blown to pieces by missiles. The garrison was asked to surrender with the Chinese threatening to starve everyone in the city.
The Bulk of the force backstabs the Russian force, effectively sandwhiching them and surrounding them. The hole's fortified cities are barraged as millions of Chinese flock to close the Huge gap. The Russians are stuck between the great wall of the Chinese -with no way to break out the Chinese constantly fortify while making offensives in the manchurian hole.
Another 1,500,000 men enlist in the army, out of which 100,000 reinforce by time.
The hole is closed and the Chinese move in to destroy the pocket. With the Russian millitary in danger, Chinese diplomats suggest a peace.
Treaty of Forbidden attack
- Russia admits defeat to China
- Pre- war levels of diplomacy
- Occupying Russians and Chinese withdraw by 72 hours
TheRussian forfeited this round.
(Ill skip to make this fair.)
A bunch of Russians starve in the hole and in Khravostok. Also trenches are dug.
Firstly, I would like to address the issue about HQ-9s. I quote my opponent from Round 2: "Naval HQ - 9s would be invernurable due to Russian disregard for the navy and would thus destroy the Tu- 160s before they can unload most of their bombs."
You said yourself you used naval HQ-9s.
Secondly, about my "godmodding":
1) My opponent prepared no serious defenses from keeping me from going towards Beijing. There was no organized defense. I do see my opponent's sniper towers and while there's no clear date on their construction (my opponent said May 26-June 17), I'll assume that they were finished before my arrival. I apologize for ignoring this previously. In any case, I don't think sniper towers could stop such an onslaught, but I will concede that the Russian forces were hindered because of loss of several officers and other important personnel to snipers.
2) Essentially no further attempts have been made to cut my supply lines, I don't see the issue. Khabarosk is being reinforced non-stop by highway, air and railroad. Khabarosk uses AFVs and trucks to transport materials to the Harbin group, which is no longer growing significantly in size besides equipment like tanks and artillery.
3) On the subject of oil, yes, Saudi oil is important for the Chinese. However my opponent started to "look for new suppliers", as my opponent said, only a day before Russia cancelled shipments on May 27. This is no where near enough time to compensate for such an immediate loss of oil supply. This, however, isn't really critical right now.
"I'm not sure how Russia would make an amphibous assualt and make it to Changde. Perhaps he meant Chengchun?"
Be careful, I said "Chengde", not "Changde" and it is indeed what I meant. No amphibious invasion necessary as I moved by land from the North-East.
https://www.google.com..., Hebei, Chinaemail@example.com,115.7042288,7z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x35f50761790ca7e3:0xbf83c11f35a6edf1
I would also like to point out that my opponent seems to "spawn" soldiers out of no where. I take relatively realistic amounts time (essentially giving my opponent time to actually prepare defenses) to transport my troops and such. My opponent responds to my moves after they've happened by conjuring massive amounts of soldiers out of no where (having made no preparations prior to my move) to attack my men and totally destroy my force. This is quite unrealistic.
Indeed I would "compromise on the success Russia could actually have" if my opponent actually predicted my movements (it's not like I have a lot of options anyways; it's why the defending side goes first in this style of debate), and prepared defenses and forces PRIOR to the Russian offensives. He, until the previous turn, almost totally ignored the Chinese mainland defenses, focusing on attacking Russian forces on Russian territory. This is why the Russian offensive was so successful.
I'm not sure how much success my opponent expects to have with his "amphibious force" when attacking Chengde, considering that it's located over 50 miles from the coast.
"Chinese reinforments came en masse from Beiijing with the Russians being outnumbered, out supplied, and outmanuvered."
Precisely what I was talking about before. Where did these reinforcements just come from? Not a single troop was set up by my opponent for the defense of Beijing. How could the Russians be "outnumbered, out supplied and out maneuvered" if my opponent's defense of Beijing started less than a week ago? No preparations were made prior to the arrival of the Russians to Chengde, how were the Russians "fighting entrenched Chinese that also were ready" ? A serious defense couldn't have been set up in such a short time span, especially against a force that has been being supplied and increasing in size for a month.
Our ideas of the war and plans for it have diverged so significantly that I'm not going to continue to the turn.
This is what we had at the end of the last turn:
-Vladivostok under Chinese control.
-Khabarosk under siege by Chinese.
-Kamchatka under Chinese control.
-Massive Russian attack force located 75-100 miles away from the center of Beijing, about 50-60 miles away from the outskirts. No defenses had been prepared by my opponent thus far (by end of last turn). Since my opponent has made no attempts (by the end of the last turn) to prepare, he would have three days at the most to prepare the city for defense against a very large offensive force, this is simply unrealistic.
It is up to my opponent and the voters to decide how realistic my opponent's most recent moves were, but they seem totally unreasonable to me. Beijing would be crushed in less than a week, Chinese government removed, Manchuria effectively under Russian control as even forces in Shenyang would be surrounded.
My opponent seems to be making assumptions that there are just massive Chinese armies waiting all around the country for the Russian forces to come around to attack them. This isn't how this debate style works, the commanders (you and I) have to actually say that defenses are being prepared here, forces are being sent there in advance otherwise we could just spawn big armies anytime, anywhere we need them.
I'm sure the Chinese could pull together a pretty significant force (of infantry, at least) to Beijing before the Russians got there, but it wouldn't be enough given only 3 or so days. Also considering that the city would be under frequent artillery bombardment.
The Chinese sent large forces to areas such as Vladivostok and Kamchatka (essentially a waste of time, equipment and manpower) that ceased to be relevant to the conflict as the Russians pushed through Manchuria. At this point, even if Khabarosk was to be captured, Beijing would still probably fall rather quickly because of the amount of Russian forces at the gates.
The Chinese have a choice of trying to fend off the Russian force and die trying or to surrender before the city gets destroyed and massive casualties (civilian and military) are inflicted.
I would like to emphasize once again that no serious defenses capable of withstanding the Russian group at Chengde could be constructed in the amount of time it would take that group to travel less than 100 miles to the heart of the city.
In any case, I thank my opponent for the interesting debate and hope to see him on the battlefield another time.
1) Unfortunately for my opponent there was an organized defense of entreched soilders after round 2 and 3, including infrustructure, treches, and fortified artillery. Khravostok can't yse AFVs and they are surrounded and under siege.
Also, I would like to point out the Russians had very luttle infantry or tank numbers to match the Chinese, and what they had were poorly supplied due to a lacking infrustructure.
2) Khracostok was surrounded, meaning everything around it was Chinese. The Russians cannot mass in tanks and food though heavily guarded Chinese territory. The group in Manchuria is also surrounded and couldn't be supplied anyhow.
3) The Chinese reserves could last a few days, and it wouldnt be hard at all thank's to Chinese control of the seas.
I would also like to point out I did train my infantry in a previous turn, and theoretically there was 81,000,000 men I could enlist in the army. It is the Russians who wouldn't be able to kill an army bigger than they are considering the margin of how much Russians were sent (and realistically supplier)
Lastly, the Russian offensive was NOT "so sucessful". The Chiense ended uo surrounding them, but that's here nor there. I would again point out my opponent completely ignored mymoves and somehow blitzed halfway to Beijing.
The Chinese indeed were ready, I again precisely mentioned they were entrenching and such. Furthermore, The Chinese would never have to defend Beijing; there was an offensive going on everywhere around the Russians.
This is ACTUALLY what we have at the end of the last turn
- Vladivostok under Chinese control
- Kharavostok starving and has no supplies
- Kamchatka under Chinese control
-The Russian offensive either teetring out or NOT happening due to the Russians being surrounded and being attacked everywhere, with very little manpower and virtually no reserves.
-The Chinese either waiting untill the Russians run out of supplies or forcing there way in the big circle , destroying the Russian force and oushing on into siberia. The Russians would be destroyed and surrounded with no prospect of even trying to take Beijing.
Thus, Beijing cannot realistically be crushed as the Chinese are fortified and outnumber the Russians (who magically managed to never run out of a very small number of manpower without a single reinforcement). The Russians are surrounded in a giant hole and would be crushed in it being attacked from every side, including from Beijing. My opponent's scenario is completely impossible under these circumstances.
Also, the Chinese wont fall because of Russian numbers; millions were being sent to the Manchurian front. Again, The Russians never reinforced their small army.
The Russians have a choice of signing the treaty or being crushed for there aggression. They have made a mistake in neglecting the navy; allowing the Chinese to land behind the lines and surround the Russian force trying to invade Mabchuria. From there the victory was assured as the Chinese could stave out the Russians or move in from all fronts with the Russian attempt to attacking an entrenched Beijing while being attacked everywhere else by superior forces (essentialy by number) failing. The Chinese would eventually close the hole with sheer attrition if nessesary (as they can reinforce the army not being surrounded) and destroy the Russian army, counterattacking deep into Siberia and forcing a Russian surrender.
I would like to emphizize once more that the Russians cannot realistically attack Beijing being surrounded and attacked from all fronts by a superior amount of men, especially as the Chinesr at Beijing are entrenched. Furthermore, My Opponent has conceeded this round, meaning my default he signed the treaty and surrendered to China. For these reasons I enciurage you to vote pro, although if my opponent requests we can null this debate all together considering we ended up with two vastly different results.
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