The Instigator
Vaktus
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
TheRussian
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

WAR DEBATE: United States of America (Pro) vs. Russian Federation (Con)

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Post Voting Period
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It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/27/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 449 times Debate No: 90167
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (17)
Votes (0)

 

Vaktus

Pro


Hello, I'm Vaktus. After scanning through many debates on this site I have decided that I should start my own like this.

Rules:


These rules are based off of AOW, which seems to be a group that favors war debates. I will use these rules, but I am not part of AOW.

1. When you accept the debate, state your country, and state the numbers of your armed forces (aircraft, men, ships, etc.). Use this source for military numbers ONLY, as it is the most reliable:http://www.globalfirepower.com......;


2. Each country's turn can range from about 3 days to 60 days long, so all actions must be in accordance with this time period. (DO NOT try to win in one turn! Take into account that your opponent is also a living, thinking being that can adapt to a situation.)

3. Morale is a key factor in your armed forces' effectiveness.


4. You may produce more military forces (soldiers, ships, aircraft, tanks/humvees/cavalry), but it depends on your military budget, your country's population, and how industrialized your nation is.


5. You may choose to invade or defend.


6. The defender makes the first move.


7. The defender's primary military objective is to remove the attacker's forces from the defender's territory. The attacker's primary military objective is to annex the other country, or destroy it (physically, economically, etc). Secondary military objectives can be made by the debaters if they wish. Fulfillment of the military objectives is victory. If either side fails to fulfill their set objectives, the voters are free to reasonably determine the winner based off of who was more successful in completing their objectives.


8. If a nation's capital is destroyed/liberated, this does not necessarily mean that the war is won; the capital could be recaptured. If one of the debaters destroys or controls the administration of the opposing country, OR if the opposing country is destroyed to the point of no administration, then that debater is immediately guaranteed a 7-point victory.


9. Every aspect of the war must be realistic and must remain within the parameters established by the rules and the title. Any unrealistic action and actions deviating from the rules will cause the entire action to be void. Any further deviation after the first void action will result in a complete debate forfeiture.


10. Weapons of mass destruction are NOT allowed. A WMD is defined as


-Radiological weapon or a radiological dispersion device: any weapon designed to spread radioactive material


-Nuclear or Thermonuclear weapon: an explosive device that derives its destructive force from nuclear reactions


-Chemical weapon: a device that inflicts chemicals designed to harm or kill humans/animals


-Biological weapon: the use of biological toxins or infectious organisms to inflict damage.


Non-conventional detonation of conventional weapons IS allowed

11. No allies (NATO, UN, Muslim Brotherhood, or otherwise) under ANY circumstances. Annexation of other countries or agreements that allow formations of larger nations and/or direct military intervention is NOT allowed. Personnel and forces CANNOT be supplied by other nations.


You CAN have military or diplomatic agreements and/or treaties with other nations (agreements not to interfere etc). Radical groups, militant organizations, paramilitary factions et cetera are NOT allowed.


Religion is NOT a factor. No economic sanctions from any other nation, but economic warfare is allowed.


You cannot increase your country’s population, nor can you use ANY method to allow the involvement of other countries other than what is specified. You cannot receive donations or economic support from private agencies.


12. Cyberwarfare is allowed. Electronic warfare is limited to radar/radio jamming and interception; NO EMPs.

13. The country chosen must be one of the 206 sovereign states recognized by the United Nations as of 2015. Former states such as the USSR are not accepted, nor are territory-controlling factions not officially recognized by the United Nations, such as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL, currently the Islamic State), and Gaza Strip, controlled by Hamas, but recognized by the UN as a part of Palestine.You cannot choose my nation.


14. Appropriate conduct MUST be maintained: no insults, cursing, profanity, vulgar language or trolling. Any violation of appropriate conduct WILL BE REPORTED to DDO authorities.


15. If you fail to follow the rules once, you will be given a warning and your actions in that round will be void. Further disobedience of ANYof these rules WILL result in an immediate loss of the debate.


16. The Instigator is Pro.


17. These debates are strictly Force versus Force; no civilian action is allowed unless Total War is declared.


18. TOTAL WAR can be declared only as an absolute last resort. Total war is defined as the complete mobilization of all available manpower of the country. In a state of total war, every able citizen either joins the military personnel or the military labor workforce.


19. All scenarios MUST be realistic; there MUST be an established reason for conflict.

20. We may either follow the date-time storyline format, or state the events that occur directly as realistically possible in a period of 45 days.


21. This is a Category 2 AOW debate. A category 2 debate DO NOT allow the usage of WMDs. Category 1 debates allow WMDs.

United States Military(as of 4/24/16):

MANPOWER:

Population: 321,368,864
Available Manpower: 145,215,000
Fit for Service: 120,025,000
Reaching Military Age Annually: 4,220,000
Active Frontline Personnel: 1,400,000
Active Reserves: 1,100,000

LAND SYSTEMS:

Tanks: 8,848
AFVs: 41,062
SPGs: 1,934
Towed-Artillery: 1,299
MLRSs: 1,331

AIRPOWER:

Total Aircraft: 13,444
Fighters: 2,308
Attack Aircraft: 2,785
Transport Airfract: 2,785
Helicopters: 6,084
Attack Helicopters: 957

NAVAL POWER:

Total Naval Strength: 415
Aircraft Carriers: 19
Subs: 75
Destroyers: 62
Frigates: 6
Mine Warfare: 11

FINANCIAL:

Defense Budget: 581,000,000,000 US Dollars

________________________________________________________________

First Round:
PRO - Rules | CON - Acceptance OR Opening Argument

Second Round to Fourth Round:
PRO - Argument AND Rebuttal | CON - Argument AND Rebuttal

Fifth Round:
PRO - Argument/Rebuttal AND Closing Statement | CON - Argument/Rebuttal AND Closing Statement

Any violation of these rules result in:

1st violation: Warning

2nd violation: Loss of conduct in voting

3rd violation: Forfeit of debate

I will be invading Russia. (Huge mistake, but I'm looking for a challenge..)

TheRussian is my opponent, thank you to everyone who wanted to debate. However, after looking through the candidates I decided to choose TheRussian.
TheRussian

Con

Russian military as of 4/29/16:

MANPOWER:
Population: 142,423,773
Available Manpower: 70,000,000
Fit for Service: 47,000,000
Reaching Military Age Annually: 1,355,000
Active Frontline Personnel: 766,055
Active Reserve Personnel: 2,485,000

LAND SYSTEMS:
Tanks: 15,398
AFVs: 31,298
SPGs: 5,972
Towed-Artillery: 4,625
MLRSs: 3,793

AIR POWER:
Total Aircraft: 3,547
Fighters: 751
Attack Aircraft: 1,438
Transport Aircraft: 1,124
Trainer Aircraft: 370
Helicopters: 1,237
Attack Helicopters: 478

NAVAL POWER:
Total Naval Strength: 352
Aircraft Carriers: 1
Frigates: 4
Destroyers: 15
Corvettes: 81
Submarines: 60
Coastal Defense Craft: 14
Mine Warfare: 45

April 29:
War is declared.

LAND AND AIR:
Russia begins mobilizing its reserves.

Russia begins repair, refurbishing and re-armament of older Soviet aircraft and equipment such as the Tu-160 (Blackjack).

Mobilization of tanks, artillery and infantry.

SEA:
All ships are put on highest level of battle readiness/alertness. The Russian Northern Fleet begins making its way to join the Pacific Fleet.

The Russian Black Sea Fleet mobilizes to take control of the Bosporus Strait.

The Russian Baltic Fleet mobilizes, but does not significantly change location, staying in the Baltic area.

April 30:
LAND AND AIR:
Russian anti-air defense systems such as the S-300 and S-400 are activated, particularly in key areas such as St. Petersburg, Moscow and Crimea.

Most ground forces are concentrated in Western Russia, where the capital and virtually all key cities and industrial centers are located.

SEA:
Russia's large mine-warfare force starts going to work in the Black Sea and Pacific Ocean to mine the Bosporus Strait and the Sea of Okhotsk, respectively.

May 3:
LAND AND AIR:
Ground forces (mostly infantry and artillery) are moved into passes in the Ural Mountains to fortify choke-points. Anti-air defense systems soon move into the area as well.

SEA:
The mining operation in the Bosporus Strait is nearly complete, and the Black Sea Fleet has taken a position in the area.

Parts of the Northern Fleet have entered the Pacific Ocean.

Behind the line/field of sea mines, Russian submarines were given instructions to start hunting and attack any foreign ship.

And now the Russians anxiously await the first move...
Debate Round No. 1
Vaktus

Pro

Thank you, Russia.

POLITICAL TIMELINE(corresponds with war, not warfare):

April 30th:

As war is declared, propaganda posters established around communism and falsely accusing Russia of still being communist. A lot of radical Republicans come out and volunteer to fight, but many moderates and Democrats are not convinced. This brings out around 300,000 people on the first day.

May 1st:

The United States of America passes the "Quit-Russia" act.

May 2nd:

The United States comes to an agreement to set up many USA military bases in northern Japan. The deal is worth about $250 million dollars and is accepted.

May 3rd:

The United States starts sending troops to northern Japan, but Japan only allows them to settle there, not to interfere with their populace whatsoever so Russia does not find out about this agreement. The US cyber-warfare team is also stationed here, so they can use their cyber-warfare closely.

May 4th:

The United States speaks to multiple OPEC countries about coming into trading agreements for oil. Over $500 million dollars is spent into oil, which provides the United States without 10 million barrels of oil. (Based off of the current oil per barrel price, about $45.92) [1]

WAR TIMELINE:

May 1st:

The United States Third Fleet and Seventh Fleet ready themselves to launch an invasion using Japan. They gather in Japan with about 260 ships total. About 55 submarines are put into the Pacific Ocean, hunting the Russian submarines and other ships.

May 2nd:

10 aircraft carriers are deployed on the coast of Eastern Russia and Alaska, ready to launch an attack through Siberia.

May 3rd:

The 10 aircraft carriers along with about 250 other ships attack through the Alaskan channel. Each aircraft carrier carries about 85-90 aircraft, mostly attack helicopters and fighters.

May 4th:

The fleets engage in combat, which is a bloody one, but as the Russian fleet is distracted, the Japanese US units attack. 5 aircraft carriers along with 2,000+ aircraft pass through the Sea of Japan and land in Primorsky, with little casualties. About 400,000 troops with over 20,000 AFVs and 5,000 tanks are successfully deployed in this region.

May 4th:

US cyber-warfare teams cause multiple blackouts in the Primorsky region, confusing the Russian troops and leaving them with little communication.

May 5th:

The 400,000 troops along with 2,000+ aircraft take the city of Nakhodka and station themselves there, waiting for reinforcements to advance further.

May 6th:

The Alaskan channel battle is in favor of the United States, but most ships are being blindsided with the mines placed on the Pacific coast of Russia.

May 7th:

The United States Fourth Fleet and Sixth Fleet meet up in the Baltic Sea, outside of Russian reach to discuss an invasion into West Russia.

May 8th:

More than a million people volunteer to join the United States military, which leads to the transport of about 500,000 troops, 2,000 tanks, and 5,000 AFVs into Japan, ready to reinforce the Nakhodka units.

______________________________________________________________________

Quit-Russia Act:

Any Russian goods since war declaration will be discarded. Any Russian companies are to be shutdown as well. The Russian embassy is taken over and destroyed, the Russian ambassador transported back to Russia. (unharmed to avoid UN disapproval) Any Russian immigrants must be deported right away or face imprisonment with the possibility of falling victim to the death-penalty.

Economy:

The economy must be regulated strictly. President Vaktus tries to get aid for other countries but most deny, not wanting to get involved. He also tries to find agreements for different production lines such as arms, tanks, supplies, and more. Agreements that will not be aid (so it doesn't violate the rules), but agreements that will benefit both sides. Taxes will be raised a bit, but not too much so that the populace of the United States is unhappy.

Food-rationing:

Food will be rationed to the US populace but not harshly. There will be 3 square meals a day that will help the US citizens, but food must be conserved for the army. Companies will help the federal government if asked, or threaten to be shut down by the US government. All is needed in order to help this campaign.

Propaganda posters:

Propaganda posters are set up much like in the Cold War and WWII, with harsh emphasis on how Russia is still communist and hates its people. Of course, this is not true, but it is a propaganda poster to get radicals who hate Russia to join the military right away. This works, with over 1 million people volunteering in the first week.

That's my argument, over to you, Russia!

Citations:

[1]- http://www.nasdaq.com...





TheRussian

Con

The US already has many military bases Japan, so Russia would already be wary of US invasion from the area.

I would also like to note that some (many) of my opponent's numbers.

"They gather in Japan with about 260 ships total. About 55 submarines are put into the Pacific Ocean, hunting the Russian submarines and other ships."
The US only has about 185 warships in total, spread throughout the Pacific, Atlantic and Mediterranean. Unless my opponent meant that a large portion of 260 ships were NOT warships (which I don't think he did), this is an impossible number.
http://www.globalfirepower.com...

Also, the US only has a total of 75 submarines, not sure that my opponent could get 55 of those into the Pacific so quickly.

May 4th:
Russian Pacific Fleet is attacked and annihilated by the US Pacific Fleet. The Russian Northern Fleet is instructed to simply hold the Bering Strait and not allow the US Fleet to go into the Arctic waters. Russian mines take out or damage US ships randomly, and this is a difficult obstacle for the US ships because they have nearly no anti-mine ships in the area. However, the US ships soon reach Russian coasts.

May 5th:
US actions on the Eastern coast are virtually ignored. Forces are being retracted from the area and moved to the Urals.

May 6th:
Russian air force (particularly bombers) are being prepared for long ranged operations.

Ural mountains are fortified further. Instructions to begin construction of long-term concrete bunkers begins.

Air space West of the Urals is very tightly controlled, anti-air systems camouflaged, armed and activated.

Infantry units are undergoing active daily training and older Soviet tanks, AFVs and artillery pieces are being repaired and being put back into service.

Considering current Russian anti-American sympathies and support for the president, there is no shortage of volunteers. Hundreds of thousands of young men from all around the country are being integrated into the armed forces.

May 7th:
The congregation of US ships near the Baltic Sea worries Russia significantly. The Baltic Fleet is put on full alert, submarines in particular are armed and put into the water.

Many of Moscow's forces are sent towards St. Petersburg. The garrison at St. Petersburg is strengthened, particularly the coastal areas. Artillery is set up and infantry begins digging trenches and defenses on the shores.

May 10th:
Construction of defenses in St. Petersburg and Ural mountains continues.

Russian fighters are prepared for combat, ready to be scrambled.

May 20th:
Significant progress is made in St. Petersburg and Urals, some areas have completed bunkers.

By June 3rd, most bunkers will be complete. Until then, the soldiers use largely trenches and dirt cover (WWII style kind of stuff).

Bombers are now refurbished. Long ranged bombing operations commence.

Russian air fleets of Tu-160 bombers as well as Tu-95 are sent towards the US ground forces on the coasts of Eastern Russia, supported smaller squadrons of Mig-29s supporting them once they get near the US coastal groups.

Tu-142 (specializing in bombing marine targets) is used to cause damage to US transport ships to slow down rate of supplies reaching the US forces on Eastern coast.

While the US fighters are scrambled in the area, the bombers manage to make several relatively successful initial runs. Several aircraft carriers are damaged significantly by the Tu-142s and equipment (such as AFVs) are damaged on the coast. Soon enough many of the bombers are lost, however, and the bombing runs become very infrequent.

The Russian forces continue waiting...
Debate Round No. 2
Vaktus

Pro

Thank you, Russia.

"The US already has many military bases Japan, so Russia would already be wary of US invasion from the area.

I would also like to note that some (many) of my opponent's numbers.

"They gather in Japan with about 260 ships total. About 55 submarines are put into the Pacific Ocean, hunting the Russian submarines and other ships."
The US only has about 185 warships in total, spread throughout the Pacific, Atlantic and Mediterranean. Unless my opponent meant that a large portion of 260 ships were NOT warships (which I don't think he did), this is an impossible number.
http://www.globalfirepower.com......

Also, the US only has a total of 75 submarines, not sure that my opponent could get 55 of those into the Pacific so quickly."

I did mean 260 ships total, not warships. And there are 18 submarines stationed in Pearl Harbor at the moment, as well as about 20 + submarine squadrons stationed in San Diego, (AKA Naval Base Point Loma.) Not to mention there's bases in Virginia, New York, and Bermuda. War was declared on April 29th, and the submarines were placed into combat on May 1st. There would have been plenty of time for the New York and Virginia submarines to have arrived on the west coast in approximately 2-3 days, the Bermuda would probably be a stretch. However, even without the Bermuda submarines there would have been 50+ submarines ready to go on May 1st.

Also, there are more bases stationed in South Korea, Germany, most of Europe and US oversea territories than in Japan. Why would Russia be focused solely on just Japan? They would be wary of an attack from South Korea, Europe, and the US oversea territories in the Pacific such as Guam. But I can see where you are coming from, Japan is a vital asset.

New York City to San Diego:
https://www.google.com...

Naval Station Norfolk, Virginia to San Diego:
https://www.google.com...


Both of these routes would have sufficient time to be delivered, both being under 2 days for driving, and less than 12 hours flying each.

Now that I have addressed my opponent's claims, I will begin my argument.

POLITICAL TIMELINE (corresponds with war):

May 20th:

President Vaktus visits many countries in Europe, to help set up agreements.

May 21st:

The United Kingdom and USA are close allies, so they will happily trade with them as much as they can. (This is not aid, it's trade so it is not a violation of rules)

May 22nd:

Many Russian immigrants are deported, about 409,000 before the war(Russian born), now down to less than 50,000. Most Russian immigrants cooperate without harm, but some are arrested for not obeying.

May 23rd:

The UK sells the US over 1 billion arms, which the US happily uses in Japan and other fronts.

May 25th:

The United States focuses its industry on creating multiple tanks and new ships for battle, which will take a few months to create.

May 27th:

Propaganda posters recruit more than 500,000 people, about 250,000 are sent to the Bering Strait and the other 250,000 are sent in the Baltic Sea.

June 1st:

President Vaktus is done visiting Europe, and is visiting several US cities to boost morale among the troops and citizens of the United States.

WAR TIMELINE:

May 5th:

Due to Russia's retraction of forces in the majority of Eastern Russia, the 500,000 troops + AFVs/tanks and aircraft meet up with the 400,000 in Nakhodka. They start their long trek to the Ural mountains, which takes about 2 months.

May 7th:

The Bering Strait battle is finished, with the US victorious. The remnants of the fleet set up in Anadyr and await orders.

May 9th-July 20th:

The US forces in Eastern Russia face no resistance, take a lot of ground and trek their way to the Ural Mountains(which should take at least 2 months), with supply lines having no interference, so they can rest and get refreshed whenever. After all, there is little resistance due to troops being pulled out.

May 27th-May 28th:

250,000 troops arrive in the Bering Strait, and are ordered to branch off. 150,000 will secure the rest of Eastern Russia and 100,000 will stay in Anaydr to guard the majority of the Pacific Fleet.

May 27th-May 28th:

250,000 troops are transported into the Baltic sea area, but they are not attacking, which accompanies the ships there. However, they will be a distraction force to give the Russians a false-alarm that there is an invasion coming later in the war. (August 1st)

July 6th:

US bombers, mostly consisting of the Rockwell B-1 accompany the forces moving on ahead but face struggles due to AA guns. However, they rush on ahead anyway to meet the Russian forces in the Ural Mountains.

July 22nd:

Bombing runs of the Ural mountains are successful with some casualties, however. It sets way for multiple battles in the Ural on July 23rd.

July 23rd-July 26th:

Multiple battles take place in the Ural Mountains, with the Russians having the environment to back them up, but they are severely outnumbered, with about 1 million troops along with over 25,000 AFVs and 7,000 + tanks. There are many casualties for both sides but the United States comes out victorious for the majority of the battles.

August 1st:

About 50,000 of the troops in the Baltic are sent as a distraction force to St. Petersburg, they will arrive tomorrow and give alarms to Russia's government.

August 2nd:

The 50,000 troops land on St. Petersburg, which alerts the Russian troops. Aircraft also makes the invasion seem like a real one, but it really isn't. The Russian government is alerted of this and sends more troops towards St. Petersburg.

August 3rd-August 5th:

While the Russian government is distracted, the 1 million US troops (with casualties) pushes through the Ural mountains and takes Kirov on the other side, they dig in. The Russians are alarmed, and suspect an invasion on Moscow.

August 6th:

As the Russian government tries to take back most of Eastern Russia, troops are gathered from the East coast of the USA as well as the remnants of our fleet. (not much) They are transported to the Baltic Sea, for a real invasion.

_______________________________________________________________________________

War Economy:

The USA has established a full war economy which focuses most of its industry on arms and other uses for military. This will drop the US economy and maybe grow some debt, but it will ultimately help in the long run when most of the tanks and ships are built (probably next turn). However, the US is also mass-producing in bombers, such as the Rockwell B-1 and Boeing B-52. This supplies us with a lot of bombers to continue our massive invasion through Russia.

Over to you, Russia! (If you need any confirmation on my numbers, such as the Ural Mountains trek, I'll be happy to provide. The trek should take about 2 months.)

TheRussian

Con

"Also, there are more bases stationed in South Korea, Germany, most of Europe and US oversea territories than in Japan. Why would Russia be focused solely on just Japan?"
Russia wouldn't be focused solely on Japan, but Japan is geographically very close and so it would be expected by forces on the Eastern front that the US would attack from those bases.

"They start their long trek to the Ural mountains, which takes about 2 months."
I honestly doubt this timeline, as it seems impossible to me that such a massive force could travel over 4,000 miles of rough terrain in 2 months. That's travelling around 65 miles a day, every day for 2 months. Don't forget that this force has to be supplied and would often fall under attack by planes and artillery. I will, for purposes of debate, concede to my opponent's timeline.

I agree that there would be little resistance, but I'm not sure how my opponent counts on supplying such a massive force, especially considering the terrain and lack of major infrastructure in Siberia.

The Rockwell B-1 bombers sent towards the Ural mountains would take very heavy losses very quickly due to the anti-air systems set up in the area (primarily S-400 and S-300 systems). Also I don't imagine how effective bombing runs could be in mountain areas, trying to hit small fortified points in mountain passes.

June 1:
Fortification of Ural mountains is enforced with further reinforcements in terms of artillery and infantry. Tank divisions are kept behind the mountains to counter-attack in the case of any breakthrough. So far, just several dozen tanks wait.

Skies over Moscow and St. Petersburg are constantly monitored, typically a dozen or so fighters in the air at any given time patrolling.

July 1:
Russian forces in Ural mountains just wait now, with many concrete bunkers, trenches, artillery support and tank divisions behind them in case of breakthrough. Reinforcements continue flowing in.

July 22:
US bombing runs commence over the Ural mountains, which are rather ineffective due to the anti-air defenses in the area (such as the S-400 and S-300 systems) as well as the terrain itself. Heavy losses are sustained by the bombers, with relatively insignificant results.

July 23:
The US forces finally make it to the Urals. My opponent mentions the Russian garrison being outnumbered. Even if this is the case, the US forces wouldn't be able to use their advantage in numbers because the only ways through the mountains are essentially choke-points, so the US forces wouldn't be able to use their numerical advantage. Also keep in mind that the Russians have been preparing defenses (always takes less people to effectively defend) such as bunkers and trenches for over 2 months now. They've also been being reinforced, continually supplied with troops and equipment. I don't think the US forces could expect to overcome this defense force in merely three days.

Even if a breakthrough is made, it is immediately counter attacked which stalls the US forces long enough for reinforcements to arrive to try to plug the gap. Considering the terrain, US use of artillery and aviation would be virtually obsolete. A breakthrough here would have to happen on foot, where the US is at a disadvantage because they are attacking.

August 1:
Heavy battles still rage on in the Urals, both sides taking large casualties but the US undoubtedly suffering more because of their disadvantageous position (unless my opponent manages to think of some effective strategy to overcome the heavily fortified Russian defenses).

The Russians detect a large force of US troops moving into the Baltic area (I assume being on transport ships?) and prepares the St. Petersburg garrison an attack at any moment.

August 2:
The US troops try to make a landing on the shores near St. Petersburg and essentially get slaughtered. No reinforcements are sent to St. Petersburg because the defense is already very heavy and the Russian government isn't yet too concerned considering how difficult it would be to make a breakthrough here. The St. Petersburg garrison has also been being reinforced and constructing defenses for over two months. Trying to make a breakthrough here would be like having another D-Day except even more difficult because US aviation (if used) would be shot down by the multitude of S-300 systems in the area which have been prepared and camouflaged for months.

The force of US troops is annihilated in their attempt to make a landing, some Russian casualties are sustained but relatively insignificant considering the advantages of a defense in the area. My opponent can decide to try to maintain a force in the St. Petersburg area by sending in more men and equipment, but if that doesn't happen, the entire US force will likely be wiped out within the week.

August 3:
By now the US forces will have managed to make a break in the Ural defense line. I will again emphasize that casualties taken by the US to accomplish this would be enormous, and after making it through, the US will be largely limited in the sense that it is difficult to transport large amounts of equipment through the mountains. The US spearhead is repeatedly harassed by Russian artillery, bombers and raids by AFVs and tanks.

Now that the US forces on the Western side of the Urals, Russian aviation is used very actively to raid the US spearhead. Kirov becomes a dumping ground for Russian air-to-ground missiles as well as bombs.

Troops that had defensive positions in the Urals now turn around and begin to prepare an attack towards the US force that ended up behind them, in Kirov.

Trenches, artillery positions and bunkers are repaired and built in Moscow.

About half of the Moscow garrison is sent to Nizhny Novgorod and will arrive there shortly.

I'd like to remind my opponent that the distance from Kirov to Moscow is about 590 miles, a long way to march.

August 10: The defenders of the Urals begin their march towards Kirov from the South-East, making their way through Yekaterinburg, Perm etc.

August 20:
By now, virtually the entire half of the Moscow garrison that was sent off towards Nizhny Novgorod has arrived and also begins preparing for an offensive operation.

The Ural defenders are only a day's march from Kirov at this point.

August 23:
The Nizhny attack force begins their march towards Kirov from the West.

The Moscow garrison is once again massive due to non-stop reinforcements arriving from all of Western Russia by train, road and plane. All airports and railroads in Moscow area are dedicated to military functions.

Ural force doesn't attack Kirov directly, instead moves Northward to begin to cut off the supply line to Kirov.

August 25:
The US forces in Kirov were at first glad to be relieved of the frequent bombardment, but now they are under assault from the large Nizhny Novgorod attack force. The Russians use T-90 tanks to make a break in the US defenses, following up with infantry and AFVs to widen the gap in US defenses and outgun the defenders.

US troops in Kirov start seeing a decrease in the rate of influx of supplies and reinforcements as the Ural group is directly East of Kirov now, setting up a defensive line to keep US reinforcements from coming in from the East.

"As the Russian government tries to take back most of Eastern Russia, troops are gathered from the East coast of the USA as well as the remnants of our fleet. (not much) They are transported to the Baltic Sea, for a real invasion."
This is false. I do not plan to yet make any attempts to take back Eastern Russia (hard to say it's under US control in the first place considering that my opponent hasn't really done much to expand vertically in Siberia).

US ships entering the Baltic Sea quickly begin taking casualties from the large amount of submarines located there. Besides that, however, the Russians make little attempt to stop the ships.
Debate Round No. 3
Vaktus

Pro

Vaktus forfeited this round.
TheRussian

Con

As I am defending and already had my response and preparation to my opponent's latest advances, there's not much I can say here. Plus, I wouldn't want to mess up the time frame we have. And so it seems my opponent must advance all the way to Moscow in merely one remaining turn, very unlikely.

Considering the circumstances present in the last Round, the likely outcome (it seems to me) that the US forces won't be able to push far past Kirov and might even find themselves surrounded and destroyed there (as the forces from Urals are now moving in that direction).

Also I'd like to remind my opponent and voters the difficulty of trying to supply a large force all the way through Siberia considering the terrain, climate and lack of serious infrastructure.
Debate Round No. 4
Vaktus

Pro

Vaktus forfeited this round.
TheRussian

Con

It seems that the American invasion stopped dead in its tracks as the general suddenly disappeared without a trace. Some think he ran away for fear of having the loss of the war blamed on him, others theorize that he was eliminated by the Russian Spetsnaz, but we'll never really know.

With the loss of central leadership, miscommunication and general loss of moral struck the US forces. Soon enough, they were surrounded, choked and then destroyed. Within a month, all US forces on Russian territory surrendered or were pushed out by Russian infantry and tanks with aerial support.

I thank my opponent for the active part of the debate and hope to see him on the battlefield another time.
Debate Round No. 5
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TheRussian 6 months ago
TheRussian
Yeah, lots of fun! You can join AOW (Art of War) group if you'd like, specializing in these kinds of debates.
Posted by finn.b14 6 months ago
finn.b14
Haha. I have never seen a war debate before. They are pretty awesome.
Posted by Vaktus 7 months ago
Vaktus
New York City to San Diego:
https://www.google.com...

Naval Station Norfolk, Virginia (not Kentucky, my bad) to San Diego:
https://www.google.com...

Both of these routes would have sufficient time to be delivered, both being under 2 days for driving, and less than 12 hours flying each.
Posted by Vaktus 7 months ago
Vaktus
Also, there are more bases stationed in South Korea, Germany, most of Europe and US oversea territories than in Japan. Why would Russia be focused solely on just Japan? They would be wary of an attack from South Korea, Europe, and the US oversea territories in the Pacific such as Guam. But I can see where you are coming from, Japan is a vital asset.
Posted by Vaktus 7 months ago
Vaktus
I did mean 260 ships total, not warships. And there are 18 submarines stationed in Pearl Harbor at the moment, as well as about 20 + submarine squadrons stationed in San Diego, (AKA Naval Base Point Loma.) Not to mention there's bases in Kentucky, New York, and Bermuda. War was declared on April 29th, and the submarines were placed into combat on May 1st. There would have been plenty of time for the New York and Kentucky submarines to have arrived on the west coast in approximately 2-3 days, the Bermuda would probably be a stretch. However, even without the Bermuda submarines there would have been 50+ submarines ready to go on May 1st.
Posted by Vaktus 7 months ago
Vaktus
Fine with me.
Posted by TheRussian 7 months ago
TheRussian
Since defender makes first move, it's okay if I assume that provocation has occurred and that the situation is tense, so I may start preparing in first round yes?
Posted by MaxLamperouge 7 months ago
MaxLamperouge
I will debate you.
Posted by Vaktus 7 months ago
Vaktus
Most likely tomorrow. I'll challenge someone.
Posted by TheRussian 7 months ago
TheRussian
@Vaktus
When you do think you'll start the debate?
No votes have been placed for this debate.