The Instigator
TheGodButcher
Pro (for)
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The Contender
UtherPenguin
Con (against)
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Wandenreich (Bleach-Pro) vs Akatsuki (Naruto-Pro)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 11/19/2014 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,025 times Debate No: 65499
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
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TheGodButcher

Pro

Lets jump straight into this.

Wandenreich translating to "Invisible Empire" is at the core a group of Quincy who managed to survive the "The Fall of Quincy" 1000 Years ago and escaped Seireitei, they are currently at war with soul society. Before I dive into Wandenreich's military power and strength I'll begin my first point.
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[1]"The Quincy were created by Yhwach. He is their King and his blood flows in every Quincy. The Quincy were scattered all over the world at one time. They were relatives of magic hunters who specialized in the war against Hollows"- Bleach Wiki. The Quincy abilities, tools, and weapons are in a nutshell more powerful and useful than anything seen in Naruto. Quincy are able to absorb and manipulate reishi which allows them to used in offensive, defensive and supportive purposes.
The abilities and tools granted and used by the quincy are clearly able to overwhelm any one from the Naruto Universe even with the use of Kabuto's "Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation" which allows the reincarnations to regenerate to a never ending extent. Abilities used by quincy...

Hirenkyaku- A quincy combat technique allowing them to move at high speeds. Allowing them not only to move at high speeds, but because it's not a build up of speed (like most naruto characters) and instead a sudden movement that allows them to move from one area to another in an instant, they are able to fight at extremely high speeds and not limited to speed build up like Naruto Characters. This would make battles difficult for almost every single reincarnations, making as if they were fighting against speeds like the Third Raikage, A, Minato against foot soldiers. These characters (and a few others) are the only ones who have shown to able to completely "flash" or "blur" from their spot and completely appear out of nowhere without their image moving with them. This also leads to obvious fact that the quincy have a clear speed advantage as no Reincarnation has shown their type of speed. Even Ishia (Whose power was nowhere near most of the Stern Ritter) was able to keep up with the arrancar's sonido which is capable of traveling at sound.
Another advantage the quincy possesses is Blut. By making reishi flow into their blood vessels they and can drastically increase their attack and defense power to inhuman levels making their physical human abilities better than the most of reincarnations.

Quincy's Shadow- "Shadows" is a skill of teleportation used by members of Wandenreich. Ebern stated that these "shadows" are only of accessible use for the "chosen ones"

Blut Vene- This ability drastically reduces blunt attacks and almost completely negates piercing attacks. Meaning even members of the "seven swordsmen of the mist" would be helpless as there swords don't generate or conceal enough power to cut through a quincy's blut. When pierced by Juha Bach Ichigo used blut and had the ground under them shatter, this was Ichigo's first use of blut, imagine what a full fledged trained quincy could do. Additionally Blut Vene allows the practicer to heal and seal their wounds in the case they are injured.
Blut Arterie- Increasing their attack power, this effectively would allow them to damage kage level opponents.

Ransa Tengai- Vandenreich are not pushovers. What makes them superior to the people from naruto is their ability and desire to fight even when badly damaged. With this technique lethally injured or quincy who have lost movement to a limb can continue to fight by forcefully making their limbs move. Even after being badly injured and having a vital parts injured Stern Ritter J displayed this ability which allowed him to completely turn this tides even as his death clearly approached. [http://i8.mangapanda.com...]

[2] The Wandenreich's military itself is more organized, has greater technology, is lead more carefully and intelligently, and has overall more power than post war Akatsuki. Obito and Kabuto are clearly not able to work well together. Kabuto acts on his own,. They have a clear conditions as both are in this world for their own reasons. Unlike the Wandenreich who are a monarchy and have a king whose words are absolute among them. There is no debate, conflicts among them never last long, even after the naming of the successor. Effectively there king is over 1000 years and has over a thousand years of war and combat experience. Much older than Obito and clearly smarter. Their technology and intellect would clearly be able help them during this war as they were able to develop a device which stole bankia. Though it is unlikely they would be able to stop Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation, they wouldn't need to (I'll explain later on why). Both post war Akatsuki and Wandenreich are organized groups but it's clear that Juha Bach is able to dispatch groups more efficiently as he has able to invade soul society right after learning about Ichigo's sudden appearance in Hueco Mundo.

Military Potential:

Stern Ritters-
A group of power captain-level or above captain level "Knights" whose powers are considerable enough overwhelm kage level opponents. These members have special abilities that would allow them to overwhelm a group of high level opponents like the akatsuki. Members possess unique abilities and have wide set of abilities that would allow them to affect against any reincarnation.
[http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net...]

Jagdarmee-
A hunting group. This group if needed could track and hunt down Kabuto if he was hidden. Though they wouldn't really need to.
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Soldat-
A foot soldier. What's different about these foot soldiers is that even in their abundance, they are still powerful and were able to defeat low ranking shinigami with ease. White zetsus could have a numbers advantage but would most likely fall as these foot soldiers are clearly represented to be extremely dangerous and lethal.
[http://mizuonimanga.files.wordpress.com...]
[https://mizuonimanga.files.wordpress.com...]

Others- Powerful opponents don't only rest on Soldats and Stern Ritter, The Others are arrancar who fight for His Majesty like any other quincy for the empire. Juha Bach considers them to be useful soldiers due to them not requiring prerequisite training, but are regarded as expendable and can be used for any purpose he desires.

[3]The Quincy's aftereffect on souls. The main thing my contender and anyone else reading this is wondering at the moment is how I'm going to get around the regeneration of the reincarnations. It's simple, we look at the reason Quincy were slaughtered to near extinction. It's the fact that they completely destroy the soul and instead of purifying it. The Impure World Reincarnation works by brining by the soul back into a body of someone that's already living. Meaning that souls exists which makes sense chakra works with spiritual energy. In other words, once a quincy fights a reincarnation they would destroy the soul and negate regeneration and wouldn't have to find a way to have Kabuto to stop the jutsu or seal them.
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Resources:
[http://bleach.wikia.com...]
[http://bleach.wikia.com...]
[http://naruto.wikia.com...]
[http://naruto.wikia.com...[
UtherPenguin

Con

It is much harder to analyse the power of the Vandenreich because the Bleach manga is still far from over. Given that the Naruto manga ended recently we could see the maximum power of the Akatsuki.

As opposed to Lord Yhwach's power. The full fledged fight that Yhwach has ever fought in the Bleach manga so far was between him and Head Captain Yamamoto. However even then the real Yhwach was not even fighting said battle so it would not be an accurate measure of his power.

The Vandenreich acts like an empire because of that the organization is numerous and organized. The Akatsuki are like the opposite side of the spectrum. Because of how decentralized that they are it make them very difficult to take down.

The biggest flaw with organized, hierarchical systems such as the Vandenreich has is that they are interdependent upon each other. This means that they are dependent on their numbers. This hugely contrasts with the Akatsuki. Numerous former members of the Akatsuki such as Kabuto and Orichimaru managed to break off from the Akatsuki and yet managed to create entire organizations of their own. Unlike the Vandenreich which works as a strict hierarchy. Because of that the Akatsuki are very proficient at facing the odds when highly outnumbered.

Consider Obito Uchiha, after declaring a "Great Ninja War" managed to hold on his own against what could be considered the Naruto equivalent to the United Nations. This all while at least 80 percent of the Akatsuki was dead.

The Akatsuki also have a way of countering the Vandenreich's brute strength through genjutsu's.
After Yhwach killed Yamamoto it came to his surprise that he was out of time and the first invasion of the Soul Society was to be swiftly concluded, however Yhwach stated that his absence was only a few minutes while it had actually been going on for much longer. This was because Yhwach was conversing with Sosuke Aizen and Yhwach had fallen victim to Aizen's Zanpakutou: Kyouka Suigetsu. The power of said Zanpakutou was the manipulation of the five senses, making the weapon less dependent on strength and more on psychological manipulation.

This is proof that Yhwach is not immune to weapons like Kyouka Suigetsu. This is the closest equivalent we have to a genjutsu being used in the Bleach universe.

Sense Yhwach is the father of the quinces and is the leader of the Vandenreich and given the fact that he is the strongest amongst them it would be safe to assume that none of the other Quincies have immunity to this kind of attack. This would give a humongous advantage to the Akatsuki given the fact that at least three of their members has a genjutsu.

The reincarnation Jutsu possessed by Obito and Kabuto gives the Akatsuki the ability to resurrect or reincarnate the dead by giving another body a vessel, due to the fact that the reincarnated individual is already dead they have immortality (unless sealed in some way). This means that even if a member of the Akatsuki was killed it would still be possible for the individual to be resurrected by this Jutsu, Something that the quinces have no equivalent to.

Sources:
1. http://naruto.wikia.com...!
2. http://bleach.wikia.com...
3. http://bleach.wikia.com...
4. http://en.wikipedia.org...
5.http://naruto.wikia.com...
6.http://naruto.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 1
TheGodButcher

Pro

TheGodButcher forfeited this round.
UtherPenguin

Con

I have already posted my opening argument so I will wait for Pro's rebuttal
Debate Round No. 2
TheGodButcher

Pro

[R1] Regarding your statement on the hierarchy. This is better for war due to that fact they is no need for consensus. An akatsuki member breaking away is pointless and hardly a good thing for their army pointential.

[R2] Aizen's ability is well beyond that of anyone from naruto and it's obvious Yhwach would have been tricked. However most of Kabuto's reincarnations were all chosen because of their ninjutsu and not their genjutsu. There were little proficient genjutsu users. They were mainly chosen on their destructive and physical abilities. I would also like to point out that even if genjutsu users did begin to cause a problem, the vandenreich would quickly stop the problem quickly. Via "daten" which would give out the information quickly to other members of Vandenreich.

[R2] I already went through how and why reincarnations wouldn't be a problem. This is post-war akatsuki so most of them are already dead. Those reincarnations will be killed with no problem. However if you're implying that even after they're destroyed they would can still be resurrected, they you weren't paying attention. Quincy destroy the soul not purify it, so there is no soul left , meaning that individual is gone forever. You also said and I quote:

"due to the fact that the reincarnated individual is already dead they have immortality (unless sealed in some way). This means that even if a member of the Akatsuki was killed it would still be possible for the individual to be resurrected by this Jutsu, Something that the quinces have no equivalent to."

This is almost incorrect. However the Vandenreich have under their ranks: Stern Ritter 'Z' Giselle Gewelle "The Zombie"
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As displayed Gigi has the ability to turn anyone she wants into a zombie simply allowing them to come in contact with her blood. This is not limited to enemies, after a quincy dies Gigi is also able to turn them into a zombie. Toshiro was also turned into a zombie and is now fighting for the Vandenreich. Not only will the Vandenreich have some fallen ones still fighting but they could even have their own turn against them. Gigi's abilities would not work a reincarnations they seem to have no blood but the white zetsu army and tailed beasts are still organic and would still circum to the the effects.

[http://bleach.wikia.com...]
[http://naruto.wikia.com...]
UtherPenguin

Con

On your point regarding Gigi's abilities, the problem with said abilities was that she was the only one in the Wandenreich with those said abilities yet even then Yhwach disposed of here because she was found to be useless.
This proven in chapter 604 when Haschwalth quoted the power of "Auswahlen"

" The power of useless quinces are collected and distributed to those who need it, those whose power is taken from die.."
it is also shown earlier in the chapter that Gigi was amongst the quinces who were to die. this shows that despite that the quinces had a counter to the Edotensei they would still fail to realise her power and was hence killed off. Hence it would be safe to assume that in a battle between the Akastsuki and the quinces the same situation would have occurred.

"Aizen's ability is well beyond that of anyone from naruto and it's obvious Yhwach would have been tricked. "

However when Aizen was meeting with Yhwach he was completely tied up and restrained, the only ability he was able to use in that situation was that of his zanpakuto. Only his Shikai state was necessary to trick anyone no matter strength or abilities.

"I already went through how and why reincarnations wouldn't be a problem. This is post-war akatsuki so most of them are already dead. Those reincarnations will be killed with no problem. However if you're implying that even after they're destroyed they would can still be resurrected, they you weren't paying attention. Quincy destroy the soul not purify it, so there is no soul left , meaning that individual is gone forever" You have a good point there however

The quinces can only destroy the souls of hollows or other undead such as arrancars or reincarnated individuals in this case just like how the zanpakuto only purifies the souls of hollows or undead. However the benefits that the Edotensei would have against the Wandenreich would be that dead Akatsuki can be brought back after one death giving them a second chance at fighting, this the quinces do not have an equivalent to. The edotensei also doesn't necessarily bring back only the Akastuki from the dead but also anyone else regardless of any conflicting affiliation (an example would be Minato). This means that the Akatsuki can also bring back the souls of dead quinces to fight on their side.

sources:

1. http://www.mangareader.net...
2. http://bleach.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 3
TheGodButcher

Pro

[R1] Yes many Vandenreich members were considered useless however this only because there power didn't live up to what was required against the forces of the Zero Division. Yes Yhwach might use this ability against the Akatsuki but it's not a necessity. Also the activation of Ausw"hlen simply means that it's now inevitable that whatever the elite force is up against, will surely be annihilated. Yes GiGi was the only one but the Vandenreich have a huge army and I really don't need to revive anyone. Oh and although they were deemed useless they still have yet today and seemed to refuse to.
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[R2] Of course but his Shikai state is already powerful and beyond that of anyone from Naruto. His spiritual pressure is so intense that even while not using his shikai he was able to bring Grimmjow to his knees.

[R3] I'm not backing down from my argument as their is no evidence that quincy couldn't destroy the soul of reincarnations. Yes quincy are humans and they could be used for "Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation" however Kabuto has kept himself hidden the entire war. He isn't going to come out just because one stern ritter finally died. Coming back to your argument about the quincy soul destruction and also amplifying my point on why Kabuto wouldn't and shouldn't waste his time trying to retrieve DNA:
1. GiGi for one could turn Kabuto into a zombie and simply tell him to call of the the jutsu.
2. Stern Ritter 'L' PePe Waccabrada "The Love". Under the ranks of the Vandenreich is Pepe. Pepe has the ability to make anyone he hits with ability "in love" or more accurately "his slave" as they are now under his control and do whatever it takes to defend him or please him. Pepe could make Kabuto love him and simply tell him to stop Edo Tensei. Not only this but Pepe could also control Reincarnations as Itachi proved they weren't completely under his control.
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UtherPenguin

Con

UtherPenguin forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
TheGodButcher

Pro

TheGodButcher forfeited this round.
UtherPenguin

Con

UtherPenguin forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by TheGodButcher 2 years ago
TheGodButcher
Go ahead and post your next argument.
I forgot to check this, this is my own fault. I'll post next time.
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