The Instigator
tejretics
Pro (for)
Winning
12 Points
The Contender
Jingle_Bombs
Con (against)
Losing
5 Points

War Scenario: United States vs Any Country

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
tejretics
Voting Style: Judge Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/2/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,036 times Debate No: 70884
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (19)
Votes (4)

 

tejretics

Pro

This is a war debate and a direct challenge to @Jingle_Bombs. If someone else finds a way to accept this debate, they immediately forfeit the 7 points and MUST forfeit all rounds. My country is the United States of America.

Note: Thanks to @TheRussian, @Gabe1e2, and @The-Voice-of-Truth for the initial idea that fueled this debate. Also thanks to the judges: @BDPershing, @Theunkown, @bsh1, @Paleophyte, @lannan13, @The-Voice-of-Truth, @TheRussian, @bluesteel, @RoyLatham, and @Blade-of-Truth.

There are some strict rules that apply. I request the judges to penalize violation of the rules.

1. When you accept this debate, state your country and all the numbers of your armed forces. Use this source for numbers, as it is the most reliable: http://www.globalfirepower.com...

2. The country must be one of the 206 sovereign states recognized by the United Nations as of 2015. Former states such as the USSR are not accepted, nor are territory-controlling factions not officially recognized by the United Nations, such as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL, currently the Islamic State), and Gaza Strip, controlled by Hamas, but recognized by the UN as a part of Palestine.

3. Every aspect of the war must be realistic and must remain within the parameters established by the rules and the title. Any unrealistic action and actions deviating from the rules will cause the entire action to be void. Any deviation after the first void action will result in a complete debate forfeiture. Accurate descriptions must be made of positions, tactical missiles, detonation, geography, locations, time, climate et cetera.

4. Weapons of mass destruction are not allowed. A weapon of mass destruction or WMD is defined as:
  • A radiological weapon or a radiological dispersion device: any weapon designed to spread radioactive material
  • A nuclear or thermonuclear weapon: an explosive device that derives its destructive force from nuclear reactions
  • A chemical weapon: a device that inflicts chemicals designed to harm or kill humans/animals
  • A biological weapon: the use of biological toxins or infectious organisms to inflict damage

Conventional weapons, even if detonated in a non-conventional manner, ARE allowed.

5. No allies (NATO, UN, Muslim Brotherhood etc.) under ANY circumstances. You CAN have military or diplomatic agreements and/or treaties with other nations. Religion is not a factor.

6. Economic warfare is allowed, but no economic sanctions from any other nation.

7. You may produce more military forces (soldiers, ships, aircraft, tanks/humvees/cavalry), but it depends on your military budget, your country's population, and how industrialized your nation is.

8. Cyberwarfare is allowed.

9. You may choose to invade or defend in the first round. If you do not make the decision, then I shall invade in Round 3. I (Pro) reserve the sole right to create the background of the scenario.

10. Appropriate conduct MUST be maintained: no insults, cursing, profanity, vulgar language or trolling. Any violation of appropriate conduct WILL BE REPORTED to DDO authorities.

11. If you fail to follow the rules once, you will be given a warning and your actions in that round will be void. Further disobedience of ANY of these rules WILL result in an immediate loss of the debate.

I provide my numbers in this round:
GDP (PPP): $16.72 trillion
Nominal GDP: $16.768 trillion
Defense budget: $612.5 billion
Oil reserves: 20.68 billion barrels per day
Active frontline personnel: 1.43 million
Active reserve personnel: 850,880
Total aircraft strength: 13,683
Transport aircraft: 5,222
Trainer aircraft: 2,745
Fighter aircraft: 2,271
Fixed-wing attack aircraft: 2,601
Tanks: 8,325
Armored fighting vehicles (AFVs): 25,782
Self-propelled guns (SPGs): 1,934
Towed artillery: 1,791
Multiple-launch rocket systems (MLRSs): 1,330
Total naval strength: 473
Aircraft carriers: 10
Frigates: 15
Destroyers: 62
Submarines: 72
Coastal Defense Craft: 13
Mine Warfare: 13
Labor force: 155 million
Merchant marine strength: 393
Major ports and terminals: 24
Roadway coverage: 6.58661 million
Railway coverage: 224,792
Airports: 13,513
Square land area: 9.826675 million sq. km
Coastline: 19,924 km
Shared border: 12,048 km
Waterways: 41,009 km

For further reference, this is the GlobalFirepower list of the most powerful sovereign states by conventional warfare:
1. United States
2. Russia
3. China
4. India
5. United Kingdom
6. France
7. South Korea
8. Germany
9. Japan
10. Turkey

With sources such as Wikipedia, the CIA World Factbook, GlobalFirepower.com, Forbes magazine, and Business Insider, I have compiled a list of the ten conventional military powers:

1. United States
2. Russia
3. China
4. United Kingdom
5. France
6. India
7. Germany
8. Israel
9. Pakistan
10. South Korea

Jingle_Bombs

Con

Alright, for this incredibly uncanny war scenario, my country of choice will be the United Kingdom.

However, I refuse to instigate hostilities with the United States. For a little country like me to declare war on the world's sole remaining superpower would be completely unrealistic. The UK could never hope to occupy a country of 310,000,000 people. Therefore, I have decided that PRO may deploy forces first.

I also refuse to describe moves using the date & time play by play narrative. PRO may choose to play that way if he wants, but for my side I will simply give an analysis of the events unfolding and describe my moves and responses accordingly. PRO will have to refute them.

That said this side is all set and ready to go. Good Luck!

--

Total Population: 63,742,977
Available Manpower: 29,164,233
Fit for Service: 24,035,131
Reaching Military Age Annually: 749,480]
Active Frontline Personnel: 146,980
Active Reserve Personnel: 182,000

Tanks: 407
Armored Fighting Vehicles (AFVs): 5,948
Self-Propelled Guns (SPGs): 89
Towed-Artillery: 138
Multiple-Launch Rocket Systems (MLRSs): 42

Total Aircraft: 936
Fighters/Interceptors: 89
Fixed-Wing Attack Aircraft: 160
Transport Aircraft: 365
Trainer Aircraft: 343
Helicopters: 402
Attack Helicopters: 65

Total Naval Strength: 66
Aircraft Carriers: 1
Frigates: 13
Destroyers: 6
Corvettes: 0
Submarines: 10
Coastal Defense Craft: 28
Mine Warfare: 15

Oil Production: 1,100,000 bbl/day
Oil Consumption: 1,217,000 bbl/day]
Proven Oil Reserves: 3,122,000,000 bbl/day

Labor Force: 30,150,000
Merchant Marine Strength: 504]
Major Ports and Terminals: 14
Roadway Coverage: 394,428
Railway Coverage: 16,454
Serviceable Airports: 460

Defense Budget: $51,500,000,000
External Debt: $9,577,000,000,000
Reserves of Foreign Exchange and Gold: $87,480,000,000
Purchasing Power Parity: $2,387,000,000,000
Debate Round No. 1
tejretics

Pro

May the war begin!

November 20th, 2026
London, England
11:32 A.M. GMT
Due to an internal crisis, the Parliament of the United Kingdom, with the authority of the Sovereign and the Prime Minister, passes a bill that allows the declaration of a state of emergency longer than seven days.

November 21st, 2026
Edinburgh, Scotland
12:42 P.M. GMT
An uprising of a radical group in Edinburgh practically destroys 11 Edinburgh localities, killing 753 people by detonation of a bomb. The British Armed Forces, directed by the Prime Minister who appoints himself the Secretary of State for Defense, immediately mobilize to counter the extremist group.

November 23rd, 2026
London, England
6:32 P.M., GMT
Similar reports of radical group uprisings are reported across the United Kingdom, and, in response, the military alert level is raised. The Sovereign, the Parliament, and the Prime Minister authorize the granting of emergency powers to the Prime Minister, virtually allowing him to rule by decree, invoking the bill absorbed into the Constitution merely 3 days previously.

November 27th, 2026
London, England
7:01 A.M., GMT
A militant operation destroys many facilities of London. Responsively, the British Armed Forces target all suspected terrorist bases, which are terminated immediately. By 13:00, all terrorist bases across Edinburgh and London are effectively destroyed. But panic grows, leading to a drop in the London Stock Market Value. By 14:37, a stock market crash is reported. Then, by 17:32, the Stock Market Value drops by 17% on the stock market index. The emergency powers are still necessary to deal with economic and military administration. Overall, by 21:09 GMT, the stock market index value of the United Kingdom decreases by 21%.

December 17th, 2026
London, England
12:13 P.M., GMT
British energy resources have dropped due to the stock market crash. The drop rate is estimated at 43%, and internal crisis and corruption plague the government. The Parliament has imposed strict laws on energy consumption, shutting down electrical supply 6 hours a day. The energy crisis complements the economic crisis and the UK's external debt rises from $9.577 trillion to $11.063 trillion. The monetary value of the British Pound Sterling falls by 50%. One British Pound Sterling now equals 0.765 USD. The oil reserves drop to 0.87 billion bbl/day, from the former 3.122 billion bbl/day. At 16:03, decision is taken by the Prime Minister to mobilize armed forces against Saudi Arabia, the world's second largest oil producer.

December 18th, 2015
Washington D.C.
11:33 A.M., EST
With both executive and Congressional authorization, the Secretary of the Treasury begins imposing economic sanctions against the United Kingdom. While the US has always had a deep alliance with the United Kingdom, a planned offensive against another ally of the United States which violates international law forces the US to impose economic sanctions. The CIA had intercepted the UK government's communication, giving the federal government classified information about the UK's planned invasion of Saudi. Thus, the federal government invokes the Carter Doctrine to impose sanctions upon the UK. At 18:06, following the imposition of sanctions, the DIA gains information that the UK is planning to continue the mobilization of the armed forces. At 19:32, the UK shuts down the five US Air Force bases within the UK.

December 21st, 2026
Washington D.C.
1:06 P.M., EST
Congressional authorization is granted to the Executive to declare war on the United Kingdom. Reports come in saying that the UK has regained its complete oil reserves by intercepting Saudi ships. The Saudi government does not seek conflict with such a powerful nation for fear of its economy failing. But the United States intelligence shows that the American Embassy in London is also being shut down, thus practically scarring the diplomatic relations between the two nations. At 18:00, war is declared on the United Kingdom, and all UK military bases in US controlled territory are shut down.

December 22nd, 2026
London, England
8:34 A.M., GMT
The United Kingdom severs all diplomatic ties with the United States and maintains a high-security alert. The Prime Minister declares war on the United States, and, with Parliamentary and Executive authorization, begins military mobilization.

December 27th, 2026
HMNB Devonport, Devonport
9:37 A.M., GMT
The United States Armed Forces, under Presidential authorization, declares a DEFCON-3 alert across all branches of the USAF. 8 Arleigh Burke-class destroyers are deployed to HMNB Devonport from United States military bases in Greece, Italy, Canada, and directly from the Eastern Coast of the United States. The destroyers are of Flight IIA and Flight III levels. The destroyers are fully loaded. They begin launching BGM-109 Tomahawk missiles tipped with BLU-97/B Combined Effects Bomb warheads or filled with 1000 pounds of either octanitrocubane or pentaerythritol tetranitrate. The blast yield is massive and begins crippling the infrastructure of HMNB Devonport.

December 29th, 2026
HMNB Devonport, Devonport
12:52 P.M., GMT
US Navy shelling continues and reinforcements arrive; the reinforcements are supercarriers with Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning IIs, Boeing F-22 Raptors, Boeing F-15 Strike Eagles, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcons, Lockheed F-117 Nighthawks, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt-2s, Boeing A/V-8B Harrier IIs, Grumman F-14 Tomcats and McDonnel Douglas F-4 Phantom II aircraft, along with Lockheed MC-130E Combat Talon II aircraft carrying GBU-43/B Massive Ordnance Air Blast warheads. These bombs are detonated in air, allowing a blast yield virtually equal to the effects of a tactical nuclear weapon minus the radiation [detonated in a non-conventional manner; allowed by Rule 4].

December 31st, 2026
HMNB Devonport, Devonport
The combined USNF forces cripple the Devonport Naval Base, thus effectively shutting down major levels of UK naval supply. 7 of the 13 frigates of the UK are destroyed, alongside 5 of the 10 submarines, 3 amphibious assault ships, 4 surveying squadron ships, 1 Antarctic Patrol Ship, and 1 Archer-class patrol vessel.

January 3rd, 2027
All the US Naval Forces mobilize at the now secure Devonport, and prepare to strike the other 3 primary naval bases of the UK.
Jingle_Bombs

Con

Well you just failed in the realism department, nor have you demonstrated any great military expertise or even a coherent grasp over global economies and geopolitics. But if we're going to play this "realistic game," I first must have an opponent who knows his stuff. I therefore have no choice but to void every one of PRO's actions.

DEBATE RULE #3 - "Every aspect of the war must be realistic and must remain within the parameters established by the rules and the title. Any unrealistic action and actions deviating from the rules will cause the entire action to be void. Any deviation after the first void action will result in a complete debate forfeiture. Accurate descriptions must be made of positions, tactical missiles, detonation, geography, locations, time, climate et cetera."

I will now prove where PRO's backstory went wrong:

Due to an internal crisis, the Parliament of the United Kingdom, with the authority of the Sovereign and the Prime Minister, passes a bill that allows the declaration of a state of emergency longer than seven days.

The Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (British Government) (https://www.cambridge.gov.uk...) focuses the definition of a national emergency under only three types of threats:

1)an event or situation which threaten serious damage to human welfare;

2)an event or situation which threaten serious damage to the environment; or

3)war, or terrorism, which threatens serious damage to security.

Whereas PRO has not described "internal crisis" in any broad detail (on this date) as to warrant any state of emergency.

The events of November 20th, 2026 are VOID.

An uprising of a radical group in Edinburgh practically destroys 11 Edinburgh localities, killing 753 people by detonation of a bomb.

Unless this bomb has an explosive yield comparable to eight 3,000lb bombs (the Oklahoma Terror bombing took 5,000lb of explosive ordnance for some comparison, and even then the building was still standing), I see no reason to believe that one bomb could destroy 11 different localities or buildings.

The events of November 21st, 2026 are VOID.

The Sovereign, the Parliament, and the Prime Minister authorize the granting of emergency powers to the Prime Minister, virtually allowing him to rule by decree, invoking the bill absorbed into the Constitution merely 3 days previously.

The only emergency powers existing in the UK are Reserve Powers and Royal Prerogative, both belong to the monarch. A British Prime Minister therefore, can never "rule by decree" because a constitutional monarchy will always imply that their must be some form of royal assent to any laws passed. The government of the UK is called "Her Majesty's Government" for this very reason.

The events of November 23rd, 2026 are thus VOID.

But panic grows, leading to a drop in the London Stock Market Value. By 14:37, a stock market crash is reported. Then, by 17:32, the Stock Market Value drops by 17% on the stock market index. The emergency powers are still necessary to deal with economic and military administration. Overall, by 21:09 GMT, the stock market index value of the United Kingdom decreases by 21%.

Trading at the London Stock Exchange actually takes place from 08:00 to 16:30 GMT. (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

The events of November 27th, 2026 are VOID.

British energy resources have dropped due to the stock market crash.

Energy supplies, gas tanks, and strategic oil reserves are not effected by stock market crashes. Prices are!

The events of December 17th, 2026 are VOID.

With both executive and Congressional authorization, the Secretary of the Treasury begins imposing economic sanctions against the United Kingdom. While the US has always had a deep alliance with the United Kingdom, a planned offensive against another ally of the United States which violates international law forces the US to impose economic sanctions.

This debate (according to the title) was described as a war "strictly" between the US and UK and NOT UK vs US and Saudi Arabia as well (SEE DEBATE RULES #3). Also, it appears quite evident that the US has diplomatically recognized the Saudi Arabia in this scenario as an ally - which is also in violation of the rules.

The events of December 18th, 2015 are VOID.

Congressional authorization is granted to the Executive to declare war on the United Kingdom. Reports come in saying that the UK has regained its complete oil reserves by intercepting Saudi ships. The Saudi government does not seek conflict with such a powerful nation for fear of its economy failing.

And yet Saudi Arabia's economy would crash the moment British forces seized Saudi oil freighters.

The events of December 21st, 2026 are VOID

The Prime Minister declares war on the United States

The Prime Minister has no power to formally declare war in a constitutional monarchy. Also the UK would never declare war on the US without the most incredibly valid reasons - which has not been proved thus far.

The events of December 22nd, 2026 are VOID

he United States Armed Forces, under Presidential authorization, declares a DEFCON-3 alert across all branches of the USAF. 8 Arleigh Burke-class destroyers are deployed to HMNB Devonport from United States military bases in Greece, Italy, Canada, and directly from the Eastern Coast of the United States.

Implying that EIGHT massive naval cruisers would somehow sail stealthily unnoticed by the Royal Navy and into UK territorial waters after the US has just alerted the world to its intentions by upgrading its worldwide defense posture (including nuclear forces) to DEFCON-3.

The events of December 27th, 2026 are VOID

supercarriers with Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning IIs, Boeing F-22 Raptors, Boeing F-15 Strike Eagles, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcons, Lockheed F-117 Nighthawks, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt-2s, Boeing A/V-8B Harrier IIs, Grumman F-14 Tomcats and McDonnel Douglas F-4 Phantom II aircraft

The F-22 is made by Lockheed-Martin (not Boeing) and cannot operate from a carrier.
The F-15E cannot operate from a carrier and would have likely been phased out of service by the year of this scenario (2026)
F-16s cannot operate from a carrier and would also likely have been phased out by 2026.
The F-117 is already no longer in service.
A-10s cannot operate from a carrier and would also have likely been replaced by the JSF.
Harrier Jumpjets would have been replaced by the JSF.
F-14s are no longer in active service (expect in Iran)
The F-4 has been retired from US service since the 90s.

The events of December 29th, 2026 are VOID.

The combined USNF forces cripple the Devonport Naval Base, thus effectively shutting down major levels of UK naval supply. 7 of the 13 frigates of the UK are destroyed, alongside 5 of the 10 submarines, 3 amphibious assault ships, 4 surveying squadron ships, 1 Antarctic Patrol Ship, and 1 Archer-class patrol vessel.

As if frigates and submarines don't really carry any surface to air missiles that could ever threaten aircraft.

The events of December 31st, 2026 are VOID.

All the US Naval Forces mobilize at the now secure Devonport, and prepare to strike the other 3 primary naval bases of the UK.

An overly saturated naval presence at one port is incredibly vulnerable to an all out-attack by air, naval, land-based missile forces that can fire at range. Not even sure how you would make it pass a naval mine field either with that many ships so close together. Your DDay invasion of the UK also requires months of preparation & planning along with complete air and naval superiority, which thus far you have not really demonstrated.

The events of January 3rd, 2027 are VOID.

--

(If its even possible) Pro may attempt to prove my points wrong (which is not advised) or attempt to provide a more realistic scenario and comprehensive backstory for us to discuss. PRO -according to his own rules (not mine)- must come up with realistic moves and counter moves or forfeit this match.
Debate Round No. 2
tejretics

Pro

I choose to come up with a new scenario; here, I will merely describe American offensive moves with no storyline. I apologize to Con for making these inaccurate moves. THE UNITED STATES ATTACKS THE UNITED KINGDOM WITH AN UNSPECIFIED PROVOCATION. (Not mentioned, nor relevant) Time is not a factor. The debate runs on present-day information.

Before the War:
The United States forms a military agreement with the Kingdom of Denmark to station naval forces and USAF troops in Greenland. A similar agreement is made with the Norwegian government to station troops in Svalbard, and with Iceland to station troops. A garrison is built in Greenland, from where troops are supplied to the Iceland and Svalbard stations. The Iceland station (near Reykjavik) hosts 7 of the 14 American ballistic-missile submarines, 7 Arleigh Burke-class destroyers, 332 fixed-wing attack aircraft, 550 fighter aircraft, 300 trainer aircraft, and 900 transport aircraft. UGM 133-A Trident II ballistic missiles are deployed conventionally in the submarines, without any warheads or explosive filling. This allows a maximum distance of 6,835 miles, at a speed of 18,030 miles per hour.

Let the war begin:

The United States cuts off all trade with the United Kingdom and stops tourism to the United Kingdom in all forms. The United Kingdom's economy is dependent on the United States, for petrochemicals, military technology, and cyber-technology. While this has negative impact on the American economy, the effect it has on the UK's economy is much more drastic.

The UK's cyber security policy has always been heavily dependent on the non-cooperative private sector, which barely invests in the government's cyber-security programs. So, once US cyber technology stops reaching the UK, the United States launches a cyber attack on military digital systems of the British Armed Forces. The cyber attacks cripple digital communication and control of military bases of the United Kingdom. Various power stations (power stations are vulnerable to cyber attack, as they have not been reinforced with powerful cyber security, in the UK) are also attacked by the National Security Agency-led cyberwarfare program against the United Kingdom. Electricity generators are shut down throughout the UK, and non-military digital operations are put on standby. In a week, even military databases are crippled and shut down.

The NRO deploys satellites to jam radar and radio transmissions, using electronic warfare to cripple unprotected satellite communication. The UK military struggles to control its secure networks and radio transmissions due to the cyber attack, and soon, UK military communication is hindered, and unresponsive.

The Reykjavik Military Base is officially announced, used to dock all the forces deployed, with a manpower of 19,000+ active personnel soldiers, 4500 reserve personnel, and 35,000 in the labor force. A DEFCON-3 security alert is prepared secretly in the Reykjavik Base. The submarines mobilize at Reykjavik and launch 3 conventional UGM 133-A Trident II missiles with Mk-4 reentry vehicles (equipped with accurate NRO-powered GPS systems) to Devonport, 2495 miles away, at a speed of 18,030 mph. The Trident missiles reach the HMNB Devonport base in 9 minutes. With an accuracy of 90 meters, it strikes the 2.63 square kilometer naval base perfectly; the unsuspected attack on the digitally crippled naval base has not been intercepted by an anti-ballistic missile. The military power stations have now been crippled by the cyber attacks, and electricity is near zero.

Fighter aircraft are sent from Reykjavik to secure air superiority over Devonport along with 4 destroyers, 2 frigates, 1 aircraft carrier, and 2 submarines. 430 fighter aircraft and 200 fixed-wing attack aircraft are sent, with 4 UAVs, to establish air superiority over the region. Satellites do not detect the approaching warships (aerospace reconnaissance of the UK is crippled), but the UK manages to detect the incoming ships. It mobilizes its own Devonport naval force. Anti-aircraft cannons are deployed by the UK to attack US Aircraft. Lockheed MC-130H Combat Talon II aircraft drop 2 GBU-43/B Massive Ordnance Air Blast bombs, each filled with 8.5 metric tons of Composition H6 (44% RDX and nitrocellulose, 29.5% TNT, 21% powdered aluminum, 5% paraffin wax, 0.5% calcium chloride). The resulting blast yield of both bombs combined equals 92.048 million kilojoules, but the non-conventional detonation of the bombs results in an expanded blast radius. The destroyers launch BGM-109 Tomahawk missiles tipped with BLU-97/B Combined Effects Bomb warheads. Some Tomahawks are also filled with 1000 pounds of octanitrocubane each, and others with 1000 pounds of pentaerythritol tetranitrate.

1 destroyer, 1 frigate and both submarines have been destroyed (of the US), along with many aircraft, but air and naval superiority is established over the region.
Jingle_Bombs

Con

I applaud PRO's revised arguments. Much more concurrent with forms of recognized military analysis. Well done. Much better than what I could have done at PRO's age. I unfortunately do not have the time to post a well thought out argument today and will have to largely concede this round. For now, I'll just say that the RN and RAF have begun area-denial operations over the Atlantic and Great Britain. Also in the meantime, I will mention that the UK has launched several ballistic missiles at American GPS & ISR satellites - effectively shooting them down. The UK partially recovers from its cyber attack through back up generators, quarantining effected servers, and by accessing backup cloud hubs located in different European countries. France, while not recognized as an ally in this scenario, agrees to lease 1 active FREMM multipurpose frigate and several Rafael fighters in exchange for UK cash and lower trade barriers. The UK will hope to win this war by making it too costly for the US military to continue armed hostilities. As can be expected with a war of this caliber, both national economies are beginning to crumble and US diplomatic relations with Europe and NATO are severely strained over the aggressive policies taken against a fellow European country. Sensing NATO/Europe weakness, it is likely then that Russia may try advancing into Eastern Europe while the UK & US are busy fighting with each other. It is unknown yet how this may effect US or UK interests or what might happen to the EU & Europe now that NATO is formally dissolved. Both sides may be forced to find a quicker solution (or victory) to this war than previously anticipated.





Debate Round No. 3
tejretics

Pro

Counter-measures:

As by Rule 6 economic sanctions cannot be placed by any nations besides the United States and the United Kingdom, US continues steady trade with other countries; it's economy does not crumble, it is merely affected, and it is still the largest economy. The UK's economy, though, is heavily dependent on the United States and effectively begins to crumble.

The Office of the Director of National Intelligence raises intelligence security (secretly) to LERTCON-1. The military bases in Reykjavik and Devonport (now a US military base) raise their defensive security alone to DEFCON-2 and alert anti-ballistic missile and cyberspace warfare systems. US administrative control of Devonport allows a digitally secure power station to supply energy to the Devonport Base.

Inaccuracy: A simple ballistic missile does not have the range and capability to disable or destroy satellites; ONLY anti-satellite weapons OR, in rare cases, ANTI-ballistic missiles can. But the UK does not possess anti-satellite weapons. Therefore, my GPS and ISR satellites are still stable.

As a defensive, I prepare antiballistic missiles at Devonport at a thermospheric level to intercept anti-satellite weapons.

The United States increases trade levels with Japan, trading petrochemicals, and military technology. It forms a powerful trade agreement and removes various trade barriers between the two countries. In addition, it invests in Japanese economy in exchange for Japanese navy destroyers. The United States then announces diplomatic relations with Iran and lifts all sanctions posed against Iran, thus stabilizing and strengthening Iranian economy. Iran then enters a major US-Iran energy deal, allowing increased amounts of oil and gas in the United States. The US also lifts trade barriers with Saudi Arabia and Russia.

To boost US economy for the period of war, I take on these measures:
1. The US boosts its gas export policy, beginning gas deals with Iran, China, Germany, Saudi Arabia, and Japan. I fix the Department of Energy policy and accept many potential exports of liquid gas.
2. I lower taxes on capital to increase investment. Then I lower the US Corporate Tax to the Organization for Cooperation & Development from 35% to 25%, increasing international investment. I then expense purchases of capital equipment.
3. I raise the number of H1-B Visas from 85,000 p.a. to 175,000 p.a., to admit intelligent minds to the US.
4. I open more oil mines in Alaska and begin increasing oil reserves, allowing me to trade more oil and opening oil agreements, increasing production and revenue.

Continuing the war:

The UN declares neutrality in the UK-US tensions and requests both sides to use restraint but declares that it will NOT interfere in the tensions.

2 destroyers from Devonport and 3 destroyers from Reykjavik are deployed against HMNB Portsmouth. The US launches RIM-116 Standard Missile IIIs to disable UK secure communication satellites. Radio transmissions are disrupted and the combination of electronic warfare and usage of ASATs practically shuts down public communication and severely disrupts and damages secure networks. GPS satellites of the UK shut down. The US invests $2 billion from its annual military expenditure budget on cyberwarfare technologies in the NSA. New network infiltration technologies are adapted and a cyber strike is deployed against HMNB Portsmouth and HMNB Clyde. With Lockheed-Boeing F-22 Raptors, Lockheed MC-130E Combat Talon IIs, and Lockheed MC-130H Combat Talon IIs, releasing GBU-43/B Massive Ordnance Air Blast weapons and cannon-fire to establish air superiority over HMNB Portsmouth. The destroyers launch BLU-97/B CEB warheads on Tomahawk missiles and pentaerythritol tetranitrate high explosive-filled missiles on the surface. The aircraft launch Massive Ordnance Penetrators, "bunker-buster" bombs that penetrate the infrastructure of the naval base, destroying warships. While there are losses on both sides, the crumbling digital and communications infrastructure of HMNB Portsmouth, the US-established air superiority over the region, and the US' advanced military technology results in the annexation of HMNB Portsmouth. Forces are equally distributed at Portsmouth and Devonport while reinforcements arrive from the US East Coast and Nuuk, Greenland to Reykjavik. A military agreement is made between the US and Ireland to allow warships to go through Irish national waters. The United States removes trade barriers with Ireland in exchange for setting up a military base in Dublin. The United States keeps recon satellites above the Irish Sea and drafts Land Forces to the Dublin Base. The US then maintains a DEFCON-2 alert (secret) in Dublin, Reykjavik, Nuuk, and Svalbard. The US then forms a US Land Force border troop at the Ireland-UK (Northern Ireland border) border.
Jingle_Bombs

Con

Right. I think its time I finally showed everyone here how to defeat a superpower while using a only puny (but soon to be massive)* country.

*will explain later :P

--

All along in this scenario thus far, PRO has been waging a very aggressive US military campaign against the UK; but by focusing soley on the military aspects of this war, he has foolishly ignored the political frictions and firestorms that a US declared war on the UK causes, along with a huge global security void that will engulf the world into international crisis.

In a hypothetical US declared war on the UK; we may expect the following.

Economic calamity - Sanctions matter not here. Every country in the world will be experiencing economic collapse due to the global security panic that a US war on the UK causes. Consumer confidence is going to fall through the floor, banks & stock markets are going to collapse as people withdraw assests; private European consumers/companies may or may not order boycotts of US or UK goods, international trade & shipping is going to be cut in half as a US-UK war will engulf shipping lanes in the Atlantic and the surrounding airspace. And despite what PRO believes, the US will suffer great economic damage due to the UK's ability to close the straights of gibalter, and therefore American access to the Suez canal. But make no mistake, the world economy is in freefalll as we speak.

Security Void - a US declared war on the UK completely dissolves the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (a NATO country cannot attack another NATO country); whereas PRO's rules have also foolishly outlawed military alliances in this debate. The effect of this blunder is a massive global security void as smaller European and Pacific countries (like Poland and Japan) will feel threaten by their big peer competitors, most notably Russia & China. I see no reason, nor has PRO demonstrated any reason, for us not to believe that Russia would make advances into Eastern Europe or that China would not try to advance into Taiwan or Japan in order to extended there sphere of influences there. Their moves of course, take advantage of the security void that is caused while the US is distracted fighting the UK. This scenario is made even worse again, due to the fact that these smaller, less powerful countries can no longer ally among themselves or form collective security agreements that are needed in order to thwart Russian and Chinese aggression.

Wide European & World hatred/distrust of US policies. PRO's USA is engaging in an offensive war of conquest against the UK without a UN mandate (but I'll be nice here and still say PRO has congressional authority). This is a huge huge mistake and only paints the US war effort as illegal and diabolical in the eyes of international law & global opinion. PRO has no hope of securing a UN mandate due to a UK veto vote through the UN Security Council. Meanwhile, we can count on massive Anti-American sentiment and dislike in Europe due to the unprecedented and twisted act of American leaders declaring war on a country who had historical been one of its oldest and greatest diplomatic & security partners through much of its history. The fact too, that PRO has deployed ground troops to Ireland in preparation of an amphibious invasion of the British Isles will also lead to many European countries to conclude that America's imperialist foreign policies will not stop at a ceasefire or a simple UK surrender, but annexation - and that they too, might be next on America's hit list. PRO's military actions thus far have demonstrated no reason for us to believe that this would be untrue in the eyes of other world countries. He has been indiscriminate in his intent to destroy and occupy Great Britain (and a former friendly country) through cluster munitions, cruise missiles, cyber attacks, and lavish use of Massive Ordnance Air Blast along with prepping a land invasion bent on invading. PRO has military bases and military forces deployed through out every part of the world, and his military actions leave little else but for others to conclude that the US is hell bent on conquering the world.

When considering all the above, it is therefore natural and logical for us to conclude that many countries on the world map must find a working solution to the economic & security dilemmas raging all around them, and that they must not involve making military or diplomatic alliances.

Thus, I give you all the common-wealth!

The Empire Strikes Back

The Commonwealth of Nations, formerly known as the British Commonwealth, is an intergovernmental organisation of 53 member states (http://en.wikipedia.org...). These member states consist of the breakaway colonies of the former British Empire (India, Canada, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, etc), where at least 19 of these states still recognize the British Queen as head of state. Given the unfolding global security pandemic, economic uncertainty, the inability to make strategic alliances, and the political perception of a US foreign policy bent on conquering the world, I see no reason to believe why many -if not all- these states would now not attempt to rejoin the United Kingdom in order to protect their national interests. We can believe this is realistically possible in this scenario due to the common English language, history, culture, and democratic / free-market systems and ideas that each of these countries share. PRO cannot cry foul here due to debate rules that say "AGREEMENTS BETWEEN COUNTRIES ARE ALLOWED." This historical agreement to rejoin the British crown is again made possible (and absolutely nessary) due to smaller countries inability to counter a larger nation's aggression with alliances and collective security agreement. Unless countries wish to be involunarily annexed by US, China, or Russia - and forever dictated by their policies- uniting together to form larger countries of like cultures is now their only means of survival (nuclear detetterents are not in play either).

The United Kingdom now consists of the following statistics:

GDP nominal - $10.450 trillion (2nd)
Population - 2.328 billion (1st)
Land Area 29,958,050 km2 (1st)

Along with military forces from India, Australia, Canada, and 50 other states.

I believe PRO no longer has the military means or political capital now to win this war, and he should consent to a ceasefire.

Debate Round No. 4
tejretics

Pro

"No allies (NATO, UN, Muslim Brotherhood etc.) under ANY circumstances. You CAN have military or diplomatic agreements and/or treaties with other nations." Direct military interference is not allowed. Therefore, the 53 commonwealth nations cannot act against the United States. The only diplomatic and military agreements allowed are allowing passage et cetera. Supplying personnel is NOT ALLOWED, because then it is an alliance. SUCH alliances are not allowed under ANY circumstances. Treaties such as disallowance of American passage in certain areas et cetera are allowed.

I have provided a warning. If you do not heed this warning, then you are immediately granted a 7-point loss.

"THE UNITED STATES ATTACKS THE UNITED KINGDOM WITH AN UNSPECIFIED PROVOCATION. (Not mentioned, nor relevant)" This clearly states there was a provocation. The only realistic reason the US will attack the UK is a serious provocation. UN has declared neutrality in this conflict. Yes, there will be a global economic crisis.

The US consents to a ceasefire only if:
The United Kingdom consents to release Northern Ireland to the United States administration; then the US will consent to the reformation of NATO to counter Sino-Russian aggression.

WARNING: Do not continue forming a British Empire, because it breaks the rules COMPLETELY. I will take no military action in this round.

Jingle_Bombs

Con

Here PRO must feel he has been out-maneuvered. And instead of wisely trying to take steps to reconcile the spiraling political and security necessities that have made the rejoining of the British commonwealth possible; he cries foul.

"No allies (NATO, UN, Muslim Brotherhood etc.) under ANY circumstances.

Unfortunately my move is allowed and does NOT meet the definition of an alliance.

Please tell me for instance, what countries is the United Kingdom allied too??? Upon rejoining with the UK, the common wealth partners in effect became the United Kingdom, whereas their prior state names ceases to exist as their governments are transferred back to London. Much in the same way as the Republic of Texas ceased to exist as a state upon joining the United States.

Direct military interference is not allowed.

Whereas no other country is militarily interfering. When Canada and India deploy forces against the US it is because they are now British-Canada and British-India - aka the United Kingdom.

The only diplomatic and military agreements allowed

Which is exactly what this is. A diplomatic agreement to rejoin the UK and become ONE NATION.

Supplying personnel is NOT ALLOWED, because then it is an alliance.

Nope. Because according to foreign policy definitions, an alliance is a pact or an agreement made between two or more different countries (http://en.wikipedia.org...). So again, who represents the second country in this scenario if all common wealth countries in effect became the UK?

SUCH alliances are not allowed under ANY circumstances.

Again, its not an alliance. Countries like Canada, Australia, and India no longer can claim state soverighty upon joining with the London government. The UK is still allied with no one.

"THE UNITED STATES ATTACKS THE UNITED KINGDOM WITH AN UNSPECIFIED PROVOCATION. (Not mentioned, nor relevant)" This clearly states there was a provocation. The only realistic reason the US will attack the UK is a serious provocation. UN has declared neutrality in this conflict. Yes, there will be a global economic crisis.

Is still not good enough to justify the surreal and violent tendencies the US has taken to prosecuting this war and upsetting the global order. Including ignoring the lack of a UN mandate, attacking a member of NATO, sending the global economy into galactic freefall, encouraging Russian and Chinese aggression against Europe and tiny Pacific nations, deploying occupying ground forces and massive amounts of ordnance against Great Britain, and having a military presence in nearly every art of the world. PRO therefore, has none nothing to defeat the impression in the eyes of the world (not US) that he is a diabolical imperialist nation hell bent on conquest.

While lacking the ability to form military alliances themselves, smaller countries therefore, must find a viable alternative strategy to protect themselves from the global security nightmare that is threatening to swallow them up. My moves -creating larger countries- makes sense and is allowed under the rules. PRO just feels cheated because he has once more been outmaneuvered.

RULE 5: "No allies (NATO, UN, Muslim Brotherhood etc.) under ANY circumstances. You CAN have military or diplomatic agreements and/or treaties with other nations. Religion is not a factor."

In my move, every agreeing participant in effect became the UK. Therefore. the UK still does NOT have any allies.

Debate Round No. 5
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by tejretics 1 year ago
tejretics
Yeah, I mis-read it, sorry. :)
Posted by tejretics 1 year ago
tejretics
Yeah, I mis-read it, sorry. :)
Posted by Theunkown 1 year ago
Theunkown
You did not
Posted by tejretics 1 year ago
tejretics
@Theunknown,
Why did I lose points in conduct?
Posted by Theunkown 1 year ago
Theunkown
Con's only possible winning argument was that Commonwealth Nations would want to form a union with Great Britain and restore the Empire to its former glory (which would easily defeat America).

However, a scenario must be realistic otherwise it is null and void (as con did to Pro's arguments).

It is very unrealistic to imagine that Pakistan, India or even Australia would be willing to unite with UK. Especially India and Pakistan, if they did, there would be national outrage and a rather on the spot revolution against the british, hundreds of army mutinees since nationalism in those countries remains quite high.

This means that even if India and Pakistan agreed to form a union with UK (which is next to impossible), their forces would essentially be useless (Those countries are the largest ecnomies and militaries in the Commonwealth Union) due to trying to maintain the domestic situation. Even if EVERY OTHER NATION in the commonwealth agreed to the union, UK would still not be strong enough, and if they were, their forces would be too spread out and re-organizing them in defense of UK would take time.

So I never could take that argument of Con's seriously, its too unrealistic hence it is void. Therefore the United States wins the war.
Posted by lannan13 1 year ago
lannan13
Voting now.
Posted by Paleophyte 1 year ago
Paleophyte
You think so?!? I gave his (voided) Round 2 invasion from Canada a great big "WTF?!?"

tejretics, you know more about ordinance than I'm ever likely to but your grasp of the big picture needs work. Give The Art of War a read if you haven't already. It's a decent primer.
Posted by Paleophyte 1 year ago
Paleophyte
Suggestions for next time:

I'm not a huge fan of these war scenario debates but if you feel the urge to do this again I suggest the following:

- Arrange the details of the debate with your opponent by private message prior to the debate. This will save you a round. These should include:

--- Ground rules

--- Nations involved (e.g. US vs China)

--- Objectives (e.g. invasion/defense of Taiwan)

That last will be a big help to focus the debate and let the judges determine if anybody won.

- If you want realism, allow allies, diplomatic repercussions and WMDs. The latter can be tricky but can be managed through fear of retaliation.

- Arrange for a mechanism for covert actions. Possibly by PM to a neutral third party. It's unreasonable to state them and then expect your opponent to act as if they aren't expecting a pig tree.

- Round 1: Pre-conflict posturing, diplomacy and staging. Both sides should state they objectives.
- Rounds 2, 3 and 4: Conflict
- Round 5: Diplomacy and cessation of conflict if possible.

And now I'm done!
Posted by Jingle_Bombs 1 year ago
Jingle_Bombs
Yeah, you got to admit, not too many people playing would have ever have thought about invoking the common wealth. But well done on your voting, Palophyte! I can tell a lot of effort went into your RFD.
Posted by Paleophyte 1 year ago
Paleophyte
How it would have gone down

Lacking a reason for hostilities this is hard to evaluate but if we remove the rule against the participation of allies this is how I see this ugly mess working out:

As tensions escalate, the UK calls on its neighbors with in the EU and Her Majesty musters the Commonwealth. The US attempts to rally its allies but most are either (1) also allies of Britain, (2) worried about their own safety or (3) of little consequence.

As tensions mount, the US faces threats and eventually sanctions from Canada, India, Australia (to name the major players) and the bulk of the European Nations. A large portion of the British fleet sails to Canada and anchors in the deep-water ports of Halifax and St. John's. Sadly this means that tejretics' first targets will likely be in Canada to keep his supply lines from getting cut.

Anti-American and Anti-British sentiments grow globally leading to improved recruitment amongst a whole host of extremist groups.

War is declared and the Commonwealth nations eject all US diplomats and halt all trade. Canada shuts off the water, power, oil and gas. Bang goes NAFTA and more than a few economies are headed for free-fall. Guess where this war's going to be held.

The invasion of Canada is a tactical cake walk. Strategically it's going to be a pyrrhic victory. The utilities that were the reason for the invasion will be found sabotaged, repairable in months or years. Politically it's a nightmare. The US has just kicked the international puppy and now faces an array of UN sanctions and trade embargoes. With the east coast in black-out and the west coast drying up and blowing away, the US economy implodes before a single ship sails for its actual target.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by The-Voice-of-Truth 1 year ago
The-Voice-of-Truth
tejreticsJingle_BombsTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: The established commonwealth by Con would not have been possible. The cyber-attack by Pro would have crippled the UK anyway. Thus, Pro wins.
Vote Placed by Theunkown 1 year ago
Theunkown
tejreticsJingle_BombsTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: In comments
Vote Placed by lannan13 1 year ago
lannan13
tejreticsJingle_BombsTied
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Total points awarded:32 
Reasons for voting decision: Okay this was a great debate, but there are a few inaccuracies though. Sources go to Con for his use of sources within the debate. Arguments now. For Pro props for the cyber attack, however there is one Non Nuclear attack that could really fry your opponent's technology including vehicles, but that's better saved for when I'm to do my debate on this in a few weeks. Con's Commonwealth of nations does STAND though. The reason for this is that they are still essentually linked to the UK though slightly independent. If Con was truely thinking he could've sited the conjucture between Brittian and France joining in 1957 for the Seize Canal issue. Though I do have to say that under this resolution that the UK would've been made useless after the Cyber attacks and the initial strikes that the US would obviously win this war before any Commonwealth would be able to renforce the UK.
Vote Placed by Paleophyte 1 year ago
Paleophyte
tejreticsJingle_BombsTied
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Total points awarded:33 
Reasons for voting decision: I hope that nobody's terribly disappointed, but I'm going to mark this one down as a tie. Quite simply, the five round turn-based debate system of DDO is ill-suited to realistically depicting the real-time nuances of the tactical, strategic and diplomatic actions in warfare. Pro demonstrated an excellent grasp of tactics and a good understanding of strategy but missed the wider political issues necessary to any realistic war scenario. Con capitalized on this but overplayed his advantage. Rules violations were noted on both sides. Neither side convincingly demonstrated that they could attack or defend so I have to call it a tie game. Further explanation in the comments.