The Instigator
Pro (for)
0 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
9 Points

War: United States (Pro) vs. Selected Country (Con)

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Post Voting Period
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after 3 votes the winner is...
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/3/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,835 times Debate No: 66226
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (19)
Votes (3)




You may select any country to go up against my country I am picking, the USA.


1. No nukes, period.

2. War will be based off of numbers in manpower, technology, artillery, etc.

3. No trolling

4. No EMPS (new rule, in comments)

Good luck.

Atheist-Independent has accepted, and we are both willing to debate. He will defend, I will invade.



Thanks, Gabe1e for challenging me to this interesting 'debate'. I have decided to play as China and I will be defending an invasion from the USA. I would like to provide a little background information for this enormous war.

In reality, there have been great disputes over the islands lying in the South China Sea. Seemingly irrelevant, these islands have been the cause of fierce diplomatic debate for nearly a decade due to large oil deposits in the surrounding area. In this scenario, tensions between the Philippines and China have risen so much that the Chinese government decided to take the islands through military force. As the official police force of the world, the US decides to intervene and therefore declares war on China. Unwilling to make an offensive move, China decides to fortify their defensive, mobilize their reserves and wait for an inevitable US invasion.

Here is a little bit of information regarding the Chinese Military (or the People's Liberation Army):

Currently has 2,285,000 active personnel.

Has another 800,000 in reserves.

Has three Naval Fleets, the North Sea Fleet, East Sea Fleet, and South Sea Fleet.

Has seven air force divisions, each assigned to one military region, and each with about 36 aircraft.

Now regarding the technology of the PLA. China has been rapidly modernizing its previously outdated military. The Navy (PLAN) has been greatly improved and is quickly closing the gap on the US. China has currently built 4 aircraft carriers, and by the time of this war will have built one more. The PLAN has also began building its first big cruisers, the Type 055 Cruiser. The Type 055 Cruiser weighs about 12,000 Tons and is about the equivalent of a US Cruiser. The PLAN currently has 24 known Type 055 cruisers. In the Chinese Air Force (PLAAF) is also greatly improved. It features aircraft such as the J-20 Sleath Fighter which is a highly dangerous fighter with equivalent or even exceeding capabilities of US fighters. There are currently 5 prototypes of the J-20 and by the time of this war I propose that the PLAAF has 5 J-20 aircraft in their arsenal. The key bomber in the PLAAF is the Xian H-6 which is an effective, yet aged aircraft.

Let's get to the fun part, shall we? This picture shows my set-up of ground troops in each of the seven Chinese military regions:

As you can see, the majority of my troops are under the Beijing and Nanjing HQ's. I am, however, going to change the organization of the PLAN's and PLAAF's fleets. This is the re-organization of the three PLAN fleets:

North Sea Fleet:

3 aircraft carriers

3 amphibious transport docks

26 landing ship tanks

12 destroyers/cruisers

10 frigates

4 corvettes

30 missile boats

50 gun boats

15 submarines

East Sea Fleet:

1 aircraft carrier

6 destroyers/cruisers

18 frigates

10 corvettes

60 missile boats

55 gun boats

32 submarines

North Sea Fleet:

6 destroyers/cruisers

17 frigates

4 corvettes

15 missile boats

26 gun boats

20 submarines

The PLAAF currently has 27 fighter divisions, 3 bomber divisions, and 2 transport divisions. I will proportion these into the seven military regions as such:

Beijing: 10 fighter divisions, 2 bomber division
Shenyang: 3 fighter divisions
Jinan: 6 fighter divisions
Nanjing: 6 fighter divisions, 1 bomber division
Guangzhou: 2 fighter divisions
Chengdu: 1 transport division
Lanszhou: 1 transport division

Back over to my friendly invader!

[1] (Air Force)
[2] (Army)

[3] (Navy)

Debate Round No. 1


Thank you, Atheist-Independent. (I don't have photoshop, or editor, so I can't really edit maps, so I will try my best)

If my opponent doesn't mind, I would like to initiate one more rule.

No allies.

If that is fine with you, please tell me, if it isn't I will not initiate it.

I like the story, and I believe we can use it.

Information about the USA:

Currently has 1,430,000 active personnel.

Has 850,000 in reserves.

Now, China clearly has more men, but lets get to the airforce, navy, and other things. [1] (All compared here)

Total Aircraft:

13,683 aircraft strength, compared to China's measly 2,788.

Total Armored Fighting Vehicles:

25,782 compared to China's again, measly 4,788.

Naval Power:

This is a one China wins, with 520 compared to USA's 473.

Military spending budget (USD):

612,500,000,000 for the USA

126,000,000,000 for China

So obviously Con can't spend much on military if he wants to, compared to me.

Current GFP (Global Firepower) ranks:

1 out of 106 for USA

3 out of 106 for China

Now onto my invasion:

Atheist-Independent states he "has seven air force divisions, each assigned to one military region, and each with about 36 aircraft."

If I divide my aircraft strength into seven, I get about 1,954. So I would have 1,954 aircraft taking on 36 for each of these fleets.

China's fleets would be overwhelmed.

Lets take a look at this map again.

I believe since my aircraft and navy combined would have absolutely destroyed all of those fleets, I would have some spare aircraft and navy to go. So I plan on concentrating attacks on the Beijing and Nanjing area's.

Because I only have 1,430,000 troops to spare, I would use mostly my spare aircraft (which is a lot because of the fleet's being overwhelmed) and AFVs compared to China's, and concetrate attacks on Beijing and Nanjing. I would then call out my reserves, giving my overall manpower a 2,280,000 force.

I will start off my invasion with two battles, then hand it over to Atheist-Independent.

Beijing invasion:

With the naval fleets of China basically destroyed from the aircraft and navy of the USA, I believe that we would have a clear way of landing in the Beijing area.

I send out 800,000 troops to that area, along with 6,000 AFVs, and lets say, 3,500 aircraft.

You do have more troops, but notice how you do not even have enough AFVs to compare to mine. You have 4,788.

Again, you don't have enough aircraft to compare to mine either, you have about 2,700. So unless you waste all of your firepower in the Beijing area, that place would basically be taken over. I will see what you come up with to defend.

Jinan invasion:

I send out about 350,000 troops, but I also have 2,000 AFVs, and 1,000 aircraft attack as well.

Again, you have more troops, but I will see if you put enough AFVs or aircraft to actually compare to mine.

Those are my first two invasions, the beginning of our epic war.

Good luck, China.






Thanks, Mr. President, for your starting invasions. Before I clarify my defenses of both Beijing and Jinan I would like to discuss one other issue.

While it is true that the US has a greater military than China does in nearly every regard with the exception of manpower. However, China has two things that could cripple the US: industry and money. For one, the Chinese industry is absolutely massive, far beyond the puny American capitalist system. Now that China is at war, the government can shift to industries from producing regular consumer goods to military supplies. Therefore we can lessen the gap between the two militaries through prouduction of brand new military machinery. I suspect that in one years time China would be able to produce 120,000 tanks (or AFVs) and 100,000 aircraft. To put this in perspective, during WWII the US was able to proudce 60,000 tanks and about 75,000 aircraft so my projections are not overexagerrations. Also, the primary concern for the US is their source of money. The US owes China about $1.25 trillion as of September of 2014. Every single day the US borrows $4 billion, much of that coming from China. If the US declares war on China, as they already have, their economy will crash due to both debt and lack of funding. The massive military budget will plummet, placing it on an almost equal standard with that of China's. The government will lose its effectiveness. And perhaps most importantly, the US will go into a depression and the people's morale will be at an all time low and they will be angry towards the government for the war against China which destroyed their lives. Therefore the US will need a quick and decisive victory against China, because if they cannot do so, the government will simply cease to function. My job is to prevent the US from getting a quick victory, so let's get on to the defenses.


At the time of the US invasion, I had a million troops stationed in the Beijing region. I will transport the 100,000 from the Lanzhou region via the Transport Air fleet stationed there. Also I will send another 100,000 troops from Shenyang for the defense. The US has 800,000 troops stationed on the shores of Beijing, and since they have orders for a quick victory, are going to waste no time on a march to Beijing. This is my current battle set up (numbers represent number of troops.

To start my defense I will utilize a counter offensive. The 400,000 troops nearest to Beijing (Pei-ching on the map) will move out towards the advancing US army and meet them at the town of Yangyuncun. They will charge at the 800,000 strong US armies right at the center, therefore splitting them into two segregated 400,000 stacks. It is likely that the Chinese army will lose the Battle of Yangyuncun, mainly due to the US air superiority, however victory was not the intention.

Now that the army is separated, we can focus on two different battles. In the south, the army there will be forced to retreat into a massive swamp as shown on the map above. The 400,000 Chinese troops in the surrounding area will use this to there advantage, attacking the US troops whose mobility is now greatly hampered. With the help of the one bomber division and several fighter escorts the Chinese should be able to defeat the 400,000 strong US army rather easily. For the sake of clarity, let us call this the Battle of We'nan as there is a town nearby with this name.

In the south, the 400,000 strong Chinese army will have a harder time overcoming the equally strong US army. Due to air superiority, the US army should have a definitive advantage in this battle. Eventually, however, we will be able to send in reinforcments who are coming from both the Battles of We'nan and Yanguncun and overcome the army. However, in the mean time the Chinese troops will take a defensive position in this battle (let's call it the Battle of Pinggu).

My battle plans are shown in this map:


The defense of Jinan will be significantly more simple than the defense of Beijing. First I will move 250,000 troops from Nanjing and 100,000 from Guangzhou into Jinan. I will also transport the 100,000 troops in Chengdu into Guangzhou via transport aircraft. Now the defense of Jinan will be more of a waiting game than anything else. If we look at the geography of the region, as shown in the map below, we can see that the US army has nowhere to go after it lands on the peninsula except into the Chinese forces.

However, this would prove to be a bad idea given that Jinan now has 750,000 troops as opposed to 350,000 American troops. Instead of attacking, however, the Chinese are simply going to box the Americans into the penisula. The US will attempt to bomb the Chinese troops so as to get them to retreat, however with the help of the 14 fighter divisions in Jinan, Nanjing, and Guangzhou, the effect should be neutralized.

Back over to you, US!
Debate Round No. 2


Your issue has some flaws:

First off, who would want to fight for China? China is in protests right now, called the Hong Kong protests, and not to mention they actually block a certain amount of sites so nobody will question their government. But, if they have another alternative, for example, the USA, they might join the USA's side instead. Your morale is already low due to the dissatisfaction of the government. In 2009, 95.9 percent of Chinese reported they were not happy with their government. ( Also, I only owe China $1.25 trillion dollars, we have $17.1 trillion dollars in GDP. This won't make us crash due to debt. We would have about $15.9 trillion GDP left. I will not allow our military budget to plummet. It may be true you have more industry, but our military budget is FAR more. I could spend money on buying military from other countries, or spend money for natural resources, to make these military things. Onto warfare.

Beijing Invasion Continued

We have discussed my battle plan, and my opponent decided to not change his even though I have a new plan. So I decided to create a map to represent what it might look like now (my mac won't copy and paste the full image): (

As you can see, since China wants to keep their defensive strategy, they will meet my army of 400,000 with their own 400,000 on both sides, they will then push down the middle, I don't know if they will defend the city, or try to take some of our occupied land, so I put about 300,000 reinforcements to come and secure the land via aircraft and navy, along with about 1,500 AFVs and 500 aircraft.

Now, both battles, Battle of We'nan and Yanguncun will be about the equal amount of troops, but the US will have more AFVs and aircraft, so they basically have the upper hand. As for the 300,000 reinforcements, they are awaiting orders, to see if the Chinese stay to defend the middle of the land, or try to invade the occupied land, but remember, the reinforcements have time to hunker down and get cozy, not to mention aircraft will probably bomb the Chinese army if they try to come and attack, unless they have some sort of artillery.

Jinan Invasion Continued

Now this gets a little bit tricky, because I'm guessing the most forces are at Jinan and Zibo. So we will continue to bomb and land on the Weihai, Wendeng, and Yantai areas, and secure that part of the peninsula. While the Chinese hunker down, we will do the same. We will wait for reinforcements via aircraft and navy, and then go ahead on our attack. Here's the map I created (my bad, I messed up the second line, it should be an arrow displaying troops invading): (

I have one more invasion to commence. Because we literally own the whole sea, considering that China's navy was overwhelmed, I will start my invasions on Shenyang.

Via aircraft and navy, I launch the invasion on Shengyang with 250,000 soldiers, along with about 1,000 AFVs and 500 aircraft.

I still have a lot of resources left, and I haven't even put a dent in my budget, so I will continue to purchase goods from other countries to go along with the war.

Our war continues, the coast of China engulfed in warfare.

Your turn, President of China.



My opponent realized after the fact that the statistic about Chinese approval rating was incorrect. As opposed to the disapproval rating being 95.9%, it is actually the approval rating that is 95.9%. Therefore this actually contradicts my opponents point. Since the Chinese are so approving of both their government and their country, it is likely that they are going to fight as long as possible to defeat the invading Americans. As for the next point about economy, I am afraid that my opponent is quite wrong about this. China is the US's primary money lender, and as shown in this source [2] if China stops lending the US money they will be in huge trouble.


Since the 400,000 troops from Beijing will not have to fight the 800,000 US troops head on due to my opponents change in strategy, they will be fresh and available for combat. In both the Battles of We'nan and and Pinggu an additional 200,000 troops will attack the US from the North and the South respectively. Now the US troops are being attacked at from three different angles and are outnumbered. The Battle of We'nan will end in a decisive victory for the Chinese due to the fact that the US will have almost no mobility as a result of the swamp in that region. The retreat will be slow as well for the same reason and it is likely that they will suffer heavy casualties. The Battle of Pinggu will have a different result however. Due to the US's air superiority and massive number of AFV's they will most likely be able to hold off the 600,000 Chinese troops. However, it is unlikely that they will be able to defeat them and move on to Beijing.

The 600,000 troops from the Battle of We'nan will move down to the East and prevent the 300,000 US reinforcements from advancing any further.


Now that the 350,000 reinforcements from Guangzhou and Nanjing have all arrived in Jinan, we now certainly have the upper hand in the region. Due to the fact that my naval base in Jinan has been taken the North Sea Fleet will have to rebase to Nanjing. Now, the East Sea Fleet will sail to the Jinan peninsula and surround the US occupied land. They will then proceed to fire at all troops on the coast of the peninsula at will. While this massive fire on the peninsula begins, the 750,000 troops will then attack the US troops. They will be unable to retreat off the peninsula due to the bombardment by the East Sea Fleet. True, US air cover will arrive eventually and scare off the Navy, however the counter offensive will have succeeded by then. Now the US will be boxed in in a very confined area after receiving heavy casualties. Here is the battle plan.


Que the maniac laughter of the President of China! I may finally begin my original planned attack! Muahahahahahah!

Anyways, on to my attack. Now that the North Sea Fleet, the one fleet with amphibious invasion equipment, is stationed in Nanjing I may proceed with an attack on Shenyang. I will transport 250,000 troops from Nanjing up north past the Jinan peninsula towards Port Arthur/Lushunko. Due to the fact that the US Navy and Airforce is busy dealing with the East Sea Fleet's bombardment of Jinan, they will face little to no resistance. Once they reach Port Arthur we will begin an amphibious invasion from three sides. There should be very few US troops in Port Arthur due to the fact that they are urgent to occupy all of Shenyang. Due to this the invasion should be a huge success. This map shows the invasion.
Now after the 250,000 troops have landed in Port Arthur, they will immediatly march on to occupy the rest of the coast. This will cut off the Americans from their regular supply lines. They will have to resort to air dropping supplies. With the help of the 10 fighter divisions from Beijing the PLAF will try to prevent this from happening.

Back over to you, my economically concerned friend!



Debate Round No. 3


Um, this article says that 1.75 trillion USD dollars are funded to the USA, which means it will add up to our debt, just like I said... so I will have $15.4 I guess? I don't know what you are getting at, because all the debt is from China is them funding us, so I paid it back... like I said. If you're talking about that if we aren't funded by you we will lose, that really won't happen because it didn't change the GDP much. Please clarify with me, I am confused.

Invasion on Beijing Continued

What you don't understand is that your troops will take time to arrive. We'nan is a sure loss, but Pinggu will be different, we will win the battle ultimately. Considering we control the Pinggu side, and the Chinese forces are retreating, we plan to march in that direction, and the 300,000 troops stationary will join us. We will then send 400,000 more troops via air and navy to stay and fend off the We'nan assault. So basically one side is overwhelmed by Chinese, and the other USA, but this isn't defensive for us, so you have a huge invasion going your way. Here's a map to show:

Now I am unsure whether you have troops in the middle or not, so I will just keep on the map just in case. Anywho, considering the reinforcments stationed have more overall AFVs and aircraft, I believe we would take them on with some difficulties, but we might win.

Invasion on Jinan Continued

Now, here come the reinforcments. I have decided to bring 350,000 more reinforcments along, making the total number 700,000. Not to mention AFVs, aircraft, etc. Yes, we do have casualties, but nothing we really can't overcome, because we bascially used the same strategy as you, we basically hunkered down in buildings and bunkers so we would have some casualties. I don't really think your air divisions will do much against ours, since we are obviously more superior in air. I have created another map:

Now overall I believe we will push them back steadily, considering we have more air/AFVs. So, it will be a steady push back, but you might be able to push back considering we do have casualties.

Invasion on Shenyang Continued

Considering there is 250,000 troops in the USA just relentlessly taking territory, it seems you want to play catch-up. You will take that one part with NO hassle that's for sure, but considering I have about 10 aircraft carriers, I will put 8 on the peninsula. These 8 carriers should defeat your naval fleet considering the aircraft they have. Look at the map that follows:

They will deploy aircraft that will attack the Chinese troops, so unless they have aircraft or artillery, they are extremely vulnerable. We will basically just bomb the hell out of the Chinese. If any of them try to push more into USA territory, they have another thing coming, because we hae aircraft patrolling that line and will attack anything that crosses, whether it be civilians or soldiers.

Invasion on Guangzhou

400,000 troops are coming your way along with 500 aircraft and 500 AFVs. We will go after the island first, that will basically be our base of operations. Here's a map:

As you can see, we set up a base on the island.

Over to you, China.



My opponent refuses to acknowledge the effect of China's abrupt ending of trade with the US. Timothy J. Kehoe, Kim J. Ruhl, and Joseph B. Steinberg report that "During a sudden stop [of Chinese funding], the US interest rate would jump from 2.9 percent in 2014 to 5.5 percent in 2015.... A sudden stop would cause a sharp contraction in construction output and employment, even more severe than during the collapse of the recent US boom" They also reported that "U.S households would suffer a real income loss of $330 billion (1992 USD), 5.2 percent of 1992 U.S. GDP, compared with a scenario in which the saving glut had never occurred. That is, the total cost of disorderly sudden stop would be 16.1 percent of 1992 U.S GDP, or over $1 trillion ($689 billion plus $330 billion)" [1]. Obviously this would be enormously detrimental to the US economy. If the US declares war on China the economy will crash, national unity will plummet, and the US would not be able to continue a war for any time longer than a year. China, on the other hand, would be more than willing to continue a long military campaign against any nation. Their industry is enormous, their national unity is high, and their military is strong. There is no way that the US would be able to win this war. This is a clear example of how the battles of a war are not always the most important aspect of a war.

Now that about a year has passed in this epic war, China would have produced about 120,000 AFV's and and 100,000 aircraft. The military is now about even with the US army stationed in China. Therefore the battles will last longer and the US will be unable to win a concise victory, and by extension, win the war. Let's get back to the specifics.

True, we will eventually lose the Battle of Pinggu, however given that the Chinese are dug in well it is sure that the battle will last for a while. This will give me sufficient time to send 400,000 troops from the Battle of We'nan back to Beijing. I will also place 40,000 AFV's in the capital for further defense. Even after winning the Battle of Pinggu there is no way that the now 700,000 US troops will be able to take Beijing. As for the 300,000 stationary reinforcements, I will place 20,000 aircraft in surrounding air bases and proceed to bomb those troops. Given that the US only has 3,500 aircraft, and no anti aircraft installations, the bombings should be relatively uncontested.

With my massive increase of military supplies, I will now place 40,000 AFV's and 20,000 aircraft in the province. Now once again China has the advantage in AFV's, aircraft, and manpower. Therefore any US attack will be futile. I for now will not command any attack on the troops as I would like to wait to integrate my AFV's into the army first, however I will send my 20,000 aircraft to bomb the troops continually.

As I have no land connection with Port Arthur, I will be unable to place more AFV's in the region. I will, however, send 20,000 more aircraft to the Dalian air base to protect the troops there from further bombings. With this new air cover the troops will be allowed to move on and regain the rest of the coast. We will not pursue the US troops, yet it is certain the troops will run out of supplies soon enough.

I will now deploy another 40,000 AFV's (I am now out of AFV's to send) and 20,000 aircraft to the Guangzhou theatre. The now 440,000 troops will guard the shores and prevent any US amphibious invasion. This will essentially box the US on the Hainan island and prevent any further progress. The 20,000 aircraft will then proceed to bomb the island, similar to the Beijing and Jinan theatres. This map displays the scenario.

Also notice that the naval base in Guangzhou is NOT on the island of Hainan, yet is in Zhanjiang on the mainland. Just would like to clarify that.

Back over to you, now very concerned Mr. President!


Debate Round No. 4


I surrender, I can't even debate anymore, I have family issues.


It was a good war nonetheless.
Debate Round No. 5
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Atheist-Independent 2 years ago
Sorry to here that. I wish your family the best of luck.
Posted by Gabe1e 2 years ago
No, I haven't. I'll have to play it. Sorry for surrending, I had a family issue. My mother is in the hospital.
Posted by Atheist-Independent 2 years ago
I'm giddy with the power of airplanes!
Posted by Atheist-Independent 2 years ago
Have you ever played Hearts of Iron 3? Based on this debate, it seems like a game that you would enjoy. I know that I do :P
Posted by Atheist-Independent 2 years ago
Hopefully you don't like war itself.
Posted by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Wow-Cool debate!
I like the war idea.
Posted by Gabe1e 2 years ago
My fault for my argument, I read the article wrong, it said 95.9% were satisfied. Exclude that from my arguments, and I would encourage the audience to take a point off of conduct if needed for my mistake.
Posted by Gabe1e 2 years ago
Atheist-Independent is now debating with me. Thank you all for viewing this, if you want to debate this with me after, I would happily accept, just challenge me.
Posted by Gabe1e 2 years ago
Correction to my last statement:

No EMPs.*

So far I am debating with: Atheist-Independent

If anyone thinks they should debate rather than him, message me/friend me.

*used to be "Neither"
Posted by Gabe1e 2 years ago

So far I am debating with: Atheist-Independent

If anyone thinks they should debate rather than him, message me/friend me.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Valladarex 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: The was definitely a great debate. Too bad Pro had to go. I would have loved to see an even match between both sides.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: That wow factor!
Vote Placed by Oliark 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro surrendered. Con arguments about China's economic and industrial potential were stronger than Pro's. I would also like to point out that Pro did not explain how he could launch his invasion of China without using his allies facilities (Japan, Philippines, South Korea...). In fact crossing the pacific with 1,5 million is not an easy task. + Aircrafts need Airbases