The Instigator
TheMasterBrask
Pro (for)
Losing
21 Points
The Contender
Lacan
Con (against)
Winning
51 Points

War in Iraq, Right or Wrong?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/19/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,649 times Debate No: 694
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (10)
Votes (24)

 

TheMasterBrask

Pro

The war in Iraq has been a problem for everybody in the world in some way. Despite what everybody else thinks, I am in favor for this war on terror, and you should be too.
First of all, the war has raised our economy. Since 9/11, the economy has gotten better and better (except the housing market which recently dropped) due to us waging a war, which creates jobs and people buy more goods.
Second, If we left Iraq right now, the country would fall apart. Right now in Iraq, the only reason a terrorist dictator hasn't taken over is because of our military rule. If we left, a couple days later, you would see some evil dictator take over again, and there would be another attack similar to 9/11.
Last, the people who live in Iraq need to experience what a good government is like. A government where you can decide who you want to run the country, decide what turns into a law, and have the freedom to do almost anything you want. Everybody in the world should be able to experience this.
Lacan

Con

Once, when i was younger naive and trusting I thought the war on terror was a good thing. Now, I see it as the most virulent form the US imperialism and oppression.

First, this war is a threat to national sovereignty.

Some facts

1. We put the Taliban in power.
2. We supported them before sept 11.
3. The UN recognized Afghanistan as a sovereign state.

What the means is that the original attack was an invasion of a nation, under the guise of searching for terrorists that they may or may not have. The assault was
brutal and lay waste to civilian and military targets alike. The vast majority of the Taliban officials escaped and Bush said he is no longer interested in Bin Laden. This means all the war did was give the United States a foothold in the middle east, a place where we have few Arabic friends.

Iran was even worse....

Facts -
1. UN inspectors told Bush that there were no WMDs.
2. The US invasion killed thousands of civilians, many more then Saddam.
3. The region was much more stable under Saddam.

The United States belies that Democracy is necessarily for everyone, and yet we can clearly see it has a hard time working in Iraq. After invading a second sovereign nation, the United States committed wholesale slaughter of the innocent with out missiles and planes. Now we are stuck in the middle of a religious batter, that has turned from a blood war into an all out attack on our boys. We patched the arguments between the Sunis and Shites in that they have come together to drive back the invading scum.

All of the worst forms of US Hegemony are present in the WOT

1. Ignoring international opinion.
2. Large scale use of hard power.
3. Challenges of sovereignty, which legitimizes large scale invasion of any country we view as a threat.
4. Threat construction, Bush lied about the WMDs and USED US to fight his ideological war, this is what Hitler did.
5. "Terror Talk" Bush used the discourse of an invisible threat to fight his never ending WOT, we can never win so the war can never end.
6. Air power - it is far easier to annihilate targets with civilians at risk from the air, soldiers don't feel personal responsibility.
7. Democracy promotion - this imperialistically fails and leads to failed states, which are the most likely senerio for a global war.
8. Exploitation - We could feed every US citizen with the cost of one day of the war.
Debate Round No. 1
TheMasterBrask

Pro

I cannot deny the fact that the war is a problem in some ways including cost and how the war was handled by President Bush, but think about how much good it is doing.
Some of your facts are true, the United States put the taliban in power (In Afganistan, not Iraq) and at one point the United States even trained and supplied Osama Bin Laden himself. Also, the world does have a different opinion on the war in Iraq than the U.S. does. Many countries in this world do not understand Democracy, liberty, and freedom. They dont understand how it helps people be who they are and live freely. Our war in Iraq has helped people in the country of Iraq understand what it means to be free. One point I do need to bring up is this; The United States is not a imperialistic country like you said. The age of Imperialism is long and gone. Just like how we went in and defended countries when they were being invaded, other countries would do the same to us if they had to. Finally, you did not address what would happen with Iraq if we left tommorow, which is a large problem with the war, We just cant leave now that its started.
Lacan

Con

Hegemony is the modern Imperialism, rather then being directly imperialist we keep our influence at such a level that the threat of American "intervention" looms over every country who lacks hard power. Chavez even called the US out on these policies in his "Bush is a Devil" speech, where he quotes Noam Chomsky talking about how in modern terms the United States is effectually imperialist the world over, and its hard to denigh that our intervention in Iraq was not an example of this.

On the line by line

First the contries that oppose us are not democracy hating freaks, for example in Franc the Socialist party keeps losing by a small vote to the extreme right wing, and yet they opposed us in Iraq. Germany is the face of a progressive state today (who the hell saw that coming)and yet, off the bat they opposed our policies. Our use of hard power has lost us all the soft power Clinton (whom I dislike) built for us. This is at best bad diplomacy and will insure out insecurity in the future. This means that even with us crushing "the threat" in the middle east, anti-Americanism is at an all time high.

The Iraqi understanding of freedom must be horrible. Under Saddam they were safe in their life so long as they were not Kurds. In freedom they are opressed by a racist military who can't even speak the language and whos hired contracts kill civilians (BLACKWATER). This is not freedom, this is "Imposed freedom" and this is the must virulent form of oppression. Iraq is "the camp" where life is reduced to bare existence while the people live under martial law and an occupying force.

We can't leave tommaorw, that dosen't mean I have to support the war, nor the morons who committed it to us. Bush needs to get down on his knees and tell the international community what they already know, he screwed up. He needs to beg the UN and NATO to take over his occupation and stabilize this country. Bush's ideologically based politics are an effective genocide and he is a criminal. This unilateral occupation needs to end, now.

The war WAS WRONG. The fact that we HAVE TO STAY proves this.

Also you don't address that the war is beause of my 3-7 arguments. This means you either agree, or can't find points against them. All of these are in depended reasons why the WOT (War on Terror) is bad.
Debate Round No. 2
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by opinionated101 6 years ago
opinionated101
FOR THE CON ARGUER... to your last post... There was a law passed already for the BlackWater happenning in which these paid persons must act at the standards/morals of the US Army. So their actions ar now checked to prevent this occurence. Morover.. handing over this task to the UN would result in mass chaos.. noting the ineffectiveness of the UN...
second of all please ! please! please! get your facts straight!... No matter how bad the condition may be in iraq.. it remains 100000 times better now than when a totalitarian radical such as Hussien was in power. Iraq is safer and so is the global community.
""Under Saddam they were safe in their life so long as they were not Kurds."""""how is this good..... ? now the people who must fear for thier lives are the radical terrorist who randomly are shooting and blowing up places.. those are the people we are striking... before... NOT ONLY innnocent kurds but any person with different views or political mindset.. or anyone who wished to express thier voice were killed in the most horrorersome ways ever...

i defend our invading iraq because rouge states like it cannnot be trusted. countires need deomcracy and fair law so that the people can remove thier president if he become opressive or corrupt..etc.... and in this way they can check the government thus keeping themselves safe and as an effect.. the world as well...

and PLEASE... never cite the imbecil of Chavez... .the guy has no scruple .. no intellegent, educated leader would ever speak or insult other leaders as he does.... he is a communist who just wants to rob venezuela form its money and resources.... just as his idol did.. fidel castro in Cuba.. he brainwashes his people into hating the US because of its strength... instead of enouraging hard work and captialism(with free market) he intends to opress his people and rob them form thier freedoms...

open your eyes... perhaps when you were younger you were more reasonable
Posted by Mangani 6 years ago
Mangani
I think you both made similar points- both in favor of "con".
Posted by Lacan 6 years ago
Lacan
Zizek winter 02 (Lenninist Tolerance) makes this claim best.

Something like "Calls to action will always occur in the hegemonic idolical coordinates"

Only the radical act can break free of this.
Posted by Felix_Karloff 6 years ago
Felix_Karloff
The lacanians seem to always be talking about "reproducing ideology". I read something written by Althusser where he talks about the revolutionary character of Lacan's work.
Posted by Lacan 6 years ago
Lacan
Lacan's outdated anyway
The Neo-Lacanians are much more important now, and not nearly as wordy.
Lacan believed that the world was a symbolic real, controlled by ideology. By breaking free of ideology we can touch the true real.

"Welcome to the desert of the real" - Morpheus
Posted by Felix_Karloff 6 years ago
Felix_Karloff
I have only read a little Lacan. I have to admitt it was a bit too dense for me. Especially since I had a week to write a 15 page research paper on his ideas.
Posted by Lacan 6 years ago
Lacan
Yes it is.
Which goes along with my username, Zizek is a Lacanian.
Posted by Felix_Karloff 6 years ago
Felix_Karloff
Lacan-

Is your avatar Slavoj Zizek?
Posted by Nietzsche 6 years ago
Nietzsche
TheMasterBrask is looking at this from the wrong perspective, I think. He's looking at the rightness or wrongness of the war as it stands today (ie, we're already there, the people are free now). What is more important, I think, is the fact that the initial invasion was unnecessary. When looking at the morality of something, you should look at the intent, not the result.
Posted by TheMasterBrask 6 years ago
TheMasterBrask
I shouldn't have tried to do this and Homework at the same time, it would have been easier to find some points haha.
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