The Instigator
Mikegj1077
Pro (for)
Losing
15 Points
The Contender
kels1123
Con (against)
Winning
31 Points

War, women in war, equality, gender, preferential treatment, tradition.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/26/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,152 times Debate No: 2214
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (14)

 

Mikegj1077

Pro

Yes, I am a military veteran. So was my dad. Initially I think I stated that women are not equal to men, and I cited professional sports, war, political leadership. There are "special" laws to protect women that do not apply to men. Why is this?
kels1123

Con

First off, let me say I respect you as a military veteran and I thank you for your service to our country.
What special laws are you talking about, I can't comment until I know which ones you are talking about. In your debate you said "Men who fight and die in wars (99% of war casualties are men). Men who do all the dirty, unpleasant things for women, like taking out the trash, shoveling excrement from the barn, bailing your kid out of jail. Would you like to take over some of those duties?" Yes men make up the majority of soldiers , although now that women are allowed in the military the numbers are increasing.

My point however is yes the men go to war , but if you ask most soldiers they will tell you that the hardest job in the military is the silent ranks , the women behind the soldier. I disagree and think my husband is the the true hero , however the women that stay behind may have a different role, but I believe it is equally important. While my husband is at war right now, I am home with our daughter , basically a single parent. I raise her alone while he is gone. I make all decisions about her on my own. I am responsible for her health and welfare. Being a mother is not an easy job. I also am responsible for all the bills and the household, again not an easy task. I have to worry about his safety every minute of everyday and have a heart attack each time the doorbell rings. I think men and women have different jobs and different roles.

I think both are equally important. We need men in the world and we need women in the world or our population would die out. You can't have a baby without a man and you also can't have a baby without a woman. Although it takes two to have a baby , the woman then has to carry the child for 9 months and give birth.
You say a woman doesn't mow the lawn, that is not always true and I in turn can then say that a man often doesn't do laundry. In both cases, this is not always the case though. With my husband gone I took out the trash every week.So to stereotype like that is wrong. I think men and women are equal and are both important to our society. I found your post to be ignorant and offensive when you debated about men and women not being equal. You may not have been here if not for your dad, but without your mom you certainly wouldn't have been here.I don't think women and men can both do some jobs. However there are most often exceptions to every rule. I do think all the roles of both are equally important.
Debate Round No. 1
Mikegj1077

Pro

"What special laws are you talking about, I can't comment until I know which ones you are talking about."

--Maternity leave mandated by congress does not apply to men.

--Women are not subject to selective service (the military draft).

--Minimum physical standards for police and military training (women are not required to run as fast, run as far, do as many sit-ups, pull-ups…)

--Men can't prevent female golfers from entering men's professional golf tournaments to compete for prize money, but women can exclude men from their tournaments.

--In a sinking ship (like the Titanic) it's always women and children in the life boats first.

--Young women drivers are given lower (special) rates for car insurance than young men get.

--Women police officers can "pat" search men, but male officers can't touch females.

--Women can get good jobs based on their looks easier than men can.

--Equal pay for equal work usually means equal pay for unequal work. At a municipal work site are women holding the flag or in the muddy ditch shoveling dirt?

Men and women compliment each other in a variety of social, domestic and commercial roles. That was never my point. I know men can't do certain things that women can do. The problem with our modern, progressive society is that, under the guise of equality, women are forced into roles traditionally undertaken mostly or exclusively by men, and the result is usually a degradation of performance and a reduction in productivity. In war, that can mean death.

Think of how a gender based quota system would work in the NFL, to take this example to its extreme. Wouldn't you agree that a team's performance would suffer? To a lesser extent, this also applies to police officers and military soldiers. Women just do not excel at occupations whose main ingredients for success are brute strength and courage.
kels1123

Con

"What special laws are you talking about, I can't comment until I know which ones you are talking about."

"--Maternity leave mandated by congress does not apply to men."

Well I believe a women needs maternity leave and not a man as maternity leave is actually maternal leave. Maternal meaning motherly , characteristic to mothers. So why would a man get maternity leave. They would have to actually receive paternity leave. Also a mother gives birth to the baby , and often needs recuperating time. A mother sometimes needs to feed their child , many mothers breastfeed. A man can not breastfeed a child. Some jobs are coming around and offering a paternity leave time and their is also a family leave act one can take. A mother should be the one to have maternity leave.

"--Women are not subject to selective service (the military draft)."

It may not seem fair however if we draft women who will stay home with children during war time? Will we just send both parents off to war?(Also I am not a believer in women in the military personally, so I do not believe women should be drafted , as I explained although I believe men and women are equal , I do think there are some jobs meant more for a man and some that are meant for a woman. Some women may feel they could be a soldier and some may be capable. I know myself that I would not physically be able to be a soldier. Also my wishes are that we don't need another draft , because my hope is that enough people will volunteer. (Unfortunately that may not always be possible) I also think I want soldiers that WANT to be there backing my husband , not those that are forced to join the military.

"--Minimum physical standards for police and military training (women are not required to run as fast, run as far, do as many sit-ups, pull-ups…)"

I don't think that is fair , however I still don't think that means men and women aren't equal.

"--Men can't prevent female golfers from entering men's professional golf tournaments to compete for prize money, but women can exclude men from their tournaments."

That is only proving that professional golf tournaments aren't fair, that still doesn't prove that men and women aren't equal.

"--In a sinking ship (like the Titanic) it's always women and children in the life boats first."

That's because in most cases a men feel protective towards women and children , it isn't a matter of equal or not equal. It is back to the different roles I spoke about already. My husband is a gentleman and no matter how strong I am if we were on a sinking ship he would want my daughter off that ship and me with her first. He would feel that she needs her mother most and he should protect us and I think MOST men feel that way and therefore that is why it is often women and children first. While men in most cases may be physically stronger , I think in some cases a women is stronger than a man in some ways. Both sexes have their strengths and their weaknesses.

"--Young women drivers are given lower (special) rates for car insurance than young men get."

That is because insurance companies go by statistics and feel young female drivers are better drivers than young male drivers. For example I myself have been driving for 11 years , I have never had an accident or a ticket and I am the lowest step you can be. My brother has been driving for 2 years and has been pulled over 2 times and had two major accidents. Although their is of course exceptions to every role , that is why the insurance companies do this.

"--Women police officers can "pat" search men, but male officers can't touch females."

I have looked all over the internet and have not found anything saying a male officer can't "pat" search a female suspect. What I found was that if a female officer is at the scene they would perform the "pat" search if not it is preferred that a "witness" is there to protect both the suspect and the officer. However if nto it can be done if the officer feels it is necessary for safety however there are guidelines on how it is done. If you can show me something to say otherwise let me know. I did see that neither gender can strip search someone of the opposite sex. Also remember that the majority of rapes are a male raping a female.

"--Women can get good jobs based on their looks easier than men can."

I don't think either gender should do this , however either gender can get a job based on their looks. Remember though if a women gets a job based on her looks that is the fault of a man. In most cases unless the person hiring is a lesbian , it is a man who would hire a woman based on her looks. If men want this to stop happening they need to appeal to other males to start thinking with the proper head . Also their are many women today in a position of power that would also hire a man based on his looks.

"--Equal pay for equal work usually means equal pay for unequal work. At a municipal work site are women holding the flag or in the muddy ditch shoveling dirt?"

Men can come out of college and get a job getting their hands dirty , a job that most women wouldn't physically want. My husband has less schooling than me and makes $38 an hour as a roofer. I could maybe get a job in an office and I have 2 years of college making $15 tops an hour. So that is not actually true. There are many jobs men can get without even a HS diploma in some cases that pay quite good.

"Men and women compliment each other in a variety of social, domestic and commercial roles. That was never my point. I know men can't do certain things that women can do. The problem with our modern, progressive society is that, under the guise of equality, women are forced into roles traditionally undertaken mostly or exclusively by men, and the result is usually a degradation of performance and a reduction in productivity. In war, that can mean death."

I do believe that some jobs are more for a man than a women and some jobs are more for a women than a man. However I don't think that means men and women aren't equal only different. I do think if I was in a burning building and needed to be rescued I would hope it would be a male firefighter to come and save me. I also don't think women have any place in infantry in the military which luckily the army agrees with me. I feel a women has women issues that could become a problem on a mission. I believe a men feel a sort of protectiveness towards women (natural instinct ) and that this could cause injuries or fatalities. As a man may not focus 100% because of worrying about the women in the field.

"Think of how a gender based quota system would work in the NFL, to take this example to its extreme. Wouldn't you agree that a team's performance would suffer? To a lesser extent, this also applies to police officers and military soldiers. Women just do not excel at occupations whose main ingredients for success are brute strength and courage."

If women want to start a female NFL good for them , should men and women play football together , no I personally wouldn't watch. There are different roles for men and women , but they are equal. Both are important. Your last debate you degraded women and put them down and that is what I have a problem with. maybe a woman doesn't do all a man does, but there are things women are much better at than men.
Debate Round No. 2
Mikegj1077

Pro

So you agree that some jobs are best left to men, others to women? Isn't that the whole point of my debate?

God Bless you.
kels1123

Con

You challenged me , I disagreed with you on the last debate because you said men and women aren't equal and that men have it harder and women don't have any tough jobs. You were rude in that debate , although you have been civil in this debate. like I said I don't agree with you that men and women are not equal. i do think some jobs are more suited for men and some jobs are more suited for women , however there are always exceptions to the rules. I do not agree that women aren't equal to men and that women don't play a very important roles. My husband may be the soldier , but rest assured he would be lost without me behind him.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Mikegj1077 9 years ago
Mikegj1077
I already had a debate going on a similar topic. I can debate you after the voting has concluded. That should give you time to think of some ideas.
Posted by Smarticles 9 years ago
Smarticles
hey were you to afraid that i would beat you mikegj1077?? by the way im voting for kels1123..good luck
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
I'm too tired tonight to respond , I will respond in the morning.
14 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by kels1123 8 years ago
kels1123
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Vote Placed by polka-dots323 9 years ago
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