The Instigator
rugbypro5
Pro (for)
Losing
4 Points
The Contender
Kumquatodor
Con (against)
Winning
24 Points

Was America Founded on Judeo-Christian Values?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
Kumquatodor
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/18/2013 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,932 times Debate No: 39149
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (15)
Votes (6)

 

rugbypro5

Pro

I believe that America was founded by mostly very strong Christians, and they wanted this country to be one that had its foundation in Christian principles. First round will be for acceptance only.
Kumquatodor

Con

I accept!
Debate Round No. 1
rugbypro5

Pro

Well, I'd like to first start by describing how they designed our system of government. The founding fathers wanted to know the best way for a government to run, so they went to the Bible to see how God ruled His people. After looking in the Bible, they found many of their answers. They found that in Isaiah 33:22 it states: "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; it is he who will save us." From that they created the 3 branches of government, one to judge, one to create laws, and one as the sort of "king." They also formed the law that churches should be exempt from paying taxes from Ezra 7:24, "You are also to know that you have no authority to impose taxes, tribute or duty on any of the priests, Levites, singers, gatekeepers, temple servants or other workers at this house of God."

Also I'd like to point out some key quotes from one of our first presidents, that without a doubt show that they built the United States on a Christian foundation, and wanted it to stay this way. John Quincy Adams, said this, "Why is it that, next to the birth-day of the Saviour of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day (the 4th of July)? Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birth-day of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birth-day of the Saviour? That it formes a leading event in the progress of the gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity? " He goes on for 60 more pages on why we are a Christian nation and why they formed it as a Christian nation. He says that the independence day of America is directly linked to the birthday of the saviour with an INDISSOLUBLE bond. Yet today somehow, we are told the founders wanted separation, but that's certainly not what he said. Who should we trust more? On top of that John Jay: the first chief justice of the Supreme Court said this, "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it ts the duty - as well as the privilege and interest - of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." We would never hear this today. Lastly, George Washington in his farewell address, said this: " Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars." Washington believed that if someone were to try and separate morality and religion from politics, they were not a real American patriot.

We don't hear statements like this anymore, but these were the statements of our Founders and our history. To ever claim that America wasn't founded by Christians and as a Christian nation is ludicrous and asinine. One would have to be simply ignorant of the speeches, claims and acts of the Founders to claim that we are not a Christian nation. (Well at least we were)
Kumquatodor

Con

Well, I'd like to first start by describing how they designed our system of government. The founding fathers wanted to know the best way for a government to run, so they went to the Bible to see how God ruled His people.
Completely untrue. If they went that far, why not make the country a theocracy? Clearly, they took the best features from Rome and Greece to create the best for of government.

They didn't tax the churches because they didn't want to impose regulation on religion and therefore violate the wall between church and state!

Also I'd like to point out some key quotes from one of our first presidents, that without a doubt show that they built the United States on a Christian foundation, and wanted it to stay this way.
Hey, I'll do that to!

"Religion was founded on myths and fairy tales"--- Thomas Jeffeson
"It would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion"--- John Adams
"An alliance or coalition between Government and religion can't be too heavily guarded aggainst"---James Madison
"Christianity is the most perverse system history has ever shown!"--- George Washington
_____________________________________________________________________________________
To top it all off:

"America was, by no means, founded on Christian values." ---the treaty of Tripoli, signed by the John Adams.





Debate Round No. 2
rugbypro5

Pro

Wow, I'm very sorry for my late reply, I've been working, and hanging out with the girlfriend :). But anyways,I'm not denying they took ideas from the Greeks and the Romans, it was very smart of them to do that. But they did take ideas from the Bible as well. Just because they took ideas from the Bible doesn't mean they have to become a theocracy just like when they took ideas from Greece they didn't make us a true democracy (We are a republic, not a democracy).

Now please note that all of your quotes except for the very last one did not say "America was not founded on Christian principles." As for your last quote, it's not even the actual quote, simply paraphrased. Please look at Article 17 from the Treaty of Tripoli and you'll find the actual quote. And though the quote does say that America isn't Christian, that is simply a one sentence, short quote. I believe all of mine out weigh that. Please explain why George Washington, John Jay, John Quincy Adams, and a whole lot more, admit and promote the idea that America is a Christian country. (If you mention "separation of church and state please note I will start a new debate to debunk that as well.)
Kumquatodor

Con

As for your last quote, it's not even the actual quote, simply paraphrased. Please look at Article 17 from the Treaty of Tripoli and you'll find the actual quote. And though the quote does say that America isn't Christian, that is simply a one sentence, short quote. I believe all of mine out weigh that.
What?!?! Your quotes have more wieght than the actual constitution?!

Sure, I paraphrased, but I did not doctor it to make my case sound better. You even admit that it says that we aren't founded on Christian Values.

Please explain why George Washington, John Jay, John Quincy Adams, and a whole lot more, admit and promote the idea that America is a Christian country.
As I showed, they didn't promote a Christian Nation. SOME were Christians (most were deists), but they did not impose their values on the people.

I am Christian, and therefore do not like gay marriage. However, I do not decide morality, and so I have to let Gays marry if they want to.

(If you mention "separation of church and state please note I will start a new debate to debunk that as well.)
Challenge me! I'll take it! Though, I ask that you raise the waiting period between rounds up to 72 hrs; I am a student.
Debate Round No. 3
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by truther1111 3 years ago
truther1111
It was founded by freemasons !
Posted by Flipper72725 3 years ago
Flipper72725
its interesting, it was found by Christians, and at that time it was considered very unusual for someone to not BE christian and attend church regularly, yet the first amendment speaks of freedom of religion. (although it still probably wasn't a good idea to say something like "I love Satan" openly in front of a whole bunch of Christians).
Posted by Heineken 3 years ago
Heineken
(continued RFD)...

Additionally, the final quote was a flagrant lie, something that Pro pointed out and Con conceded. Since Con didn't actually address the burden, and misquoted his sources....and tried to pass a paraphrase off as a verbatim quote.....there is no way that Con can claim a victory. He did not carry the burden (which was shared).

Pro, on the very least, established an argument.
Posted by Jakeross6 3 years ago
Jakeross6
The wall of separation is meant to protect the Church from the State and the State from the Church, Solomon. No religion should control the state. It should be secular. At the moment, Christianity is the most dominant religion in the United States of America. Under these circumstances, any Christians (such as yourself) would want to have no separation. However, think 500 years into the future. With the rise of Islam in America, it is very possible that they could be the dominant religion in America. Would you really want Sharia Law as the State laws? Or the Ten Commandments and love of Genocide to be America's religion? Or do you want a secular government that neither partakes in or oppresses religious practices?

I am sure that Atheism is a very large concern of yours, considering that you are Christian and you fear "godlessness" in office. If Atheists took office (as has happened in Australia), would you want the government to attack religion (which has not happened in Australia) ? It is best you keep the two separate.
Posted by Kumquatodor 3 years ago
Kumquatodor
What about the Louisiana Purchase?
Posted by Solomon_Grim 3 years ago
Solomon_Grim
The explorers killed and stole. The colonists did nothing beyond expand.
Posted by Quatermass 3 years ago
Quatermass
America was founded by stealing land and slaughtering the native population when they attempted to (logically) resist an invasion. When all of the upstarts were slaughtered and all of the land taken, the colonists then put up the sign 'thou shalt not steal' next to the sign that said 'thou shalt not murder'.
Posted by Solomon_Grim 3 years ago
Solomon_Grim
The amendment simply states that government basically can't have control over religion. This does not imply a separation, just balance. Also, there were several religious founders of America.
Posted by incredulous1972 3 years ago
incredulous1972
"The wall of separation was only mentioned by one or two people and it is thought to be there so that government can't control the church and the church won't be corrupt"

Solomon, you are soohoo wrong! It's the first sentence in the first Constitutional amendment to the bill of rights: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

It's a little more than just "mentioned by a couple of people". The "wall of separation" wasn't even a term until a court case in 1947: Everson vs. Board of Education, whereby catholic schools were getting tax dollars to pay for transportation.

The actual decision in that case was:"The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State.'"

Our founding fathers were MOSTLY secularists. Go through the list one by one - it's true.
Posted by Solomon_Grim 3 years ago
Solomon_Grim
I would like to point out the quotes that con uses in the first round have no back up to them. Historians have no clue on several founding fathers' religions. However, The wall of separation was only mentioned by one or two people and it is thought to be there so that government can't control the church and the church won't be corrupt.
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by Heineken 3 years ago
Heineken
rugbypro5KumquatodorTied
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Reasons for voting decision: The Country was clearly founded on Christian principles, even if the founders had only luke-warm affiliation with their own faith. The founding documents recognize a creator and use Him as a core argument against foreign oppression. But...I'm supposed to vote on YOUR performance, not my own vision of the debate. Conduct goes to Pro. Con admitted to paraphrasing the opinion of a historical figure, yet he placed quotations around the paraphrase to insinuate a verbatim statement. It's purposefully misleading. Quotations are reserved for quotes, not for paraphrases. Arguments goes to Pro. Although his arguments are terrible, Con did not sufficiently offer a rebuttal. As the Pro correctly pointed out: Now please note that all of your quotes except for the very last one did not say "America was not founded on Christian principles." The burden was not to describe the faith of the founders, but if America was founded on Biblical principles. (RFD Continues)
Vote Placed by Jakeross6 3 years ago
Jakeross6
rugbypro5KumquatodorTied
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Reasons for voting decision: This nation was not founded to be a Christian nation as they believed in Freedom of Religion. Con showed what the true attitudes that our forefathers held towards religion. I suggest, however, that Both the Pro and Con read the book "The Faiths of Our Fathers".
Vote Placed by Greematthew 3 years ago
Greematthew
rugbypro5KumquatodorTied
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Reasons for voting decision: This was just a bad debate. Pro did not refute at all, and Con used quotes that weren't even actually said by our founding fathers - they are "internet based" quotes. I still have to give it to Con for making the argument though.
Vote Placed by gabbsmcswaggin 3 years ago
gabbsmcswaggin
rugbypro5KumquatodorTied
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Reasons for voting decision: pro used many points that were just wrong
Vote Placed by Hirakula 3 years ago
Hirakula
rugbypro5KumquatodorTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro simply made statements like "George Washington, etc. all said that America was founded on Judeo-Christian values" while displaying no evidence or sources to suggest that. Con precisely showed that this was nonsense, and provided direct quotes from multiple founding fathers to clarify that they did not found America on Judeo-Christian values, but on the basis of Greek and Roman governmental structure.
Vote Placed by funwiththoughts 3 years ago
funwiththoughts
rugbypro5KumquatodorTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro's "taking ideas from the Bible" argument was so bad it's good. Quoting the founders doesn't prove anything as their words are not legally binding, while Con cited actual founding documents to show that it was not.