The Instigator
kohai
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
KeytarHero
Pro (for)
Winning
1 Points

Was Jesus God?

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
KeytarHero
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/29/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,545 times Debate No: 16773
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (1)

 

kohai

Con

Jesus was NOT God

In this debate, I will attempt to show that Jesus was NOT, and could NOT be God.

Whoever accepts this must be a Christian.

NOTE: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT IF THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT JESUS WAS GOD! RATHER, THIS IS A DEBATE TO TEST JESUS TO SEE IF HE WAS GOD!

Contention 1: Jesus lied

  1. God cannot lie
  2. Jesus lied
  3. Therefore, Jesus cannot be God

Assertion 1: God cannot lie

Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Furthermore, God has made the law “Thou shalt not bare false witnesses against thy neighbor (i.e. lie). Therefore, if he breaks that one law, he has broken the law of God and sinned.

Assertion 2: Jesus lied

Evidence 1

This is where I have the BOP. I have the BOP to show that Jesus lied.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. -John 13:12-14

How is this a lie? Well, many prayers fail to yield an answer. Therefore, his promise that he will do it if you ask anything in my name is a lie. He failed to do it.
We must also ask the question “Why do prayers work in other religions as well as Christianity?”

A common rebuttal is that Jesus was asserting that it was just if it was his will. However, we can clearly see that is NOT the case.

We see that Jesus lied, therefore he cannot be God.

Evidence 2

The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine. Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing. John 18:19-20

How is this a lie?

1) Jesus stated he EVER taught in the synagogue

2) Jesus stated he spoke openly to the world

3) Jesus stated he said nothing in secret

The word EVER means at all times, always, ever (1)
Jesus did NOT speak openly to the world
Matthew 13:10-11 contradicts number 3

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them,Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.-Matthew 13:10-11

Evidence 3

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Clearly, these are talking about the generation that Jesus was talking about. I can go into more detail to prove that these were talking about the second coming and not merely the resurrection or crucifixion.

Good luck in the debate.

One last assertion, I believe that Jesus claimed himself to be god because he wanted to start a revolution. The emporers at the time of Jesus started the tradition of calling themselves "God." So to call yourself "God" is to call yourself the emporer. Obviously, this had to have been stoped.

Source
1. http://www.blueletterbible.org......


KeytarHero

Pro

I would like to think the Instigator, Kohai, for issuing this challenge. As the Contender, I will be making the case that Jesus, in fact, never lied and therefore is not disqualified from his claim to be God. As Kohai has the burden of proof, it will be my job to cast doubt on his alleged proofs.

Dr. Donald A. Carson was so fond of saying, "A text without a pretext is a subtext for a proof text." Proper Biblical exegesis requires at least a few things: Taking the Scriptures in context, considering the historical context of the passages, compare Scripture to Scripture, etc. It's never a good idea to take anyone's words out of context, especially if He's the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact, it's downright ingenuous. And for the sake of this debate, we are assuming that the Bible is a reliable source. So no argument about the Bible being unreliable will be allowed. Otherwise, we have no reason to be debating what the Bible says in the first place.

As "Jesus lied" seems to be my opponent's only contention, I will respond to that.

I agree with Kohai's first assertion that God cannot lie. This is not the issue here.

Assertion 2: Jesus lied

This is where I take issue.

Evidence 1

First, the passage comes from John 14, not John 13. This apparently is a simple typo. Kohai uses John 14:12-14 as a text to "prove" that Jesus lied, then goes on to say: "A common rebuttal is that Jesus was asserting that it was just if it was his will. However, we can clearly see that is NOT the case." As we can see, Kohai cannot properly understand even a single verse from Scripture, so why does he think he can disprove a core Christian doctrine? Let's look at the verse again: "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name..." (emphasis mine). Jesus says if we ask in His name, He will do it. That alone proves that we must ask according to His will. That's not simply saying, "God, I want a new car. In Jesus' name, amen."

If we compare Scripture with Scripture (another requirement for proper exegesis), we see there are certain requirements for prayer: We must pray with no sin in our heart (2 Chron. 7:14, Psalm 66:18), we must pray in faith, believing that we will receive it (James 1:6-8), we must also pray selflessly, not fulfilling our lusts (James 4:3). We can't just ask for things willy-nilly and receive them. Jesus taught us to pray in Matthew 6:9-13. We must not only pray in Jesus' name, but we must also pray according to God's will.

Also, I don't believe that prayers work in other religions, because they are praying to false gods. Kohai has failed to give any examples of prayers that work in other religions.

As we can see, Kohai's first piece of evidence is not evidence at all, just a misunderstanding of our Lord's words.

Evidence 2

Again, Kohai takes Jesus' words out of context in order to try and prove his point (in fact, his entire argument rests on taking Jesus' words out of context). Jesus was not saying that He always taught in the synagogues, as obviously He did teach in other places as well, but He was saying that He constantly taught in the synagogues, as other teachers do. His words don't preclude Him teaching in other places, but He was also saying that He didn't just teach there once or twice, but He did often.

If we are always to take our Lord's words in the most literal way possible, we must also believe Jesus was actually calling Himself a door (John 10:9) and a vine (John 15:5), among other things.

Jesus did, in fact, speak openly to the world. He hid nothing from them, and didn't reveal any doctrines "secretly" to His disciples. In fact, the passage Kohai quotes from John 18 is when Jesus was being incarcerated for His "blasphemous" claims. This would not have happened had His teachings been "secret" and "hidden from the world."

Again, Kohai's evidence is not evidence at all, merely taking the Lord's words out of context.

Evidence 3

Jesus was not referring to the "second coming" in these verses. Jesus also indicated that in His humanity, He did not know the day or the hour He would be returning in the second coming (Mark 13:32). Therefore, it would be a ridiculous claim that there would be some still alive when that happens. In actuality, Jesus was referring to the establishment of the church on the first Pentecost. Theologian C.E.W. Dorris explains it this way: "The kingdom was to come with power, and the power was to come with the Spirit (Acts 1:8). The Spirit came on the first Pentecost after the resurrection of Christ (Acts 2:1-4). As the kingdom was to come with power and as the power was to come with the Spirit, and as the Spirit and the power came on Pentecost, therefore, the kingdom came on that day." [1]

As we can say, Kohai's alleged evidences are not evidence at all, merely clear examples of how taking one's words out of context, and not properly understanding how to exegete the Scriptures, can be used to prove any doctrine, or disprove any doctrine. The books of the Bible were composed as a whole and must be taken as such.

Additionaly, Jesus was starting a revolution, but not the one in which Kohai is asserting. Jesus came claiming to be God, but He proved that He was. And for nothing more than those claims, He was executed by crucifixion. He came into the world not to take it over as emperor, but to show us how to love and serve each other.

I look forward to the Instigator's rebuttal.

[1] C. E. W. Dorris, The Gospel according to Mark (Nashville: The Gospel Advocate Company, 1970), p. 202.
Debate Round No. 1
kohai

Con

Thank you to my opponent for accepting this debate. I am looking forward to a fun debate. Remember this debate is just for fun, but with a pinch of seriousness.

As we can see, Kohai cannot properly understand even a single verse from Scripture, so why does he think he can disprove a core Christian doctrine? Let's look at the verse again: "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name..." (emphasis mine). Jesus says if we ask in His name, He will do it. That alone proves that we must ask according to His will. That's not simply saying, "God, I want a new car. In Jesus' name, amen."

If we compare Scripture with Scripture (another requirement for proper exegesis), we see there are certain requirements for prayer: We must pray with no sin in our heart (2 Chron. 7:14, Psalm 66:18), we must pray in faith, believing that we will receive it (James 1:6-8), we must also pray selflessly, not fulfilling our lusts (James 4:3). We can't just ask for things willy-nilly and receive them. Jesus taught us to pray in Matthew 6:9-13. We must not only pray in Jesus' name, but we must also pray according to God's will.

Also, I don't believe that prayers work in other religions, because they are praying to false gods. Kohai has failed to give any examples of prayers that work in other religions.

As we can see, Kohai's first piece of evidence is not evidence at all, just a misunderstanding of our Lord's words.

I shall start backwards and work my way up. My opponent assirts that prayers do not work in other religions, because they are praying to false gods. Let me give you a few testemonies where prayer has yielded answers in non-Christian religions.

Let us first define prayer: Prayer is a form of religious practice that seeks to activate a volitional rapport to God orspirit through deliberate practice.
(definition from wikipedia.org/wiki/prayer)

Here is a testemony from a Muslim on an Islamic forum.

Salam All!

Allah SWT must have answered our prayers from time to time. Remember those times when we cried, in pain, in our most dificult moments, in our turbulence, confusions,when we said our prayers, supllianted for Allah's Mercy, Power, to Bestow us the Blessings, Love and a way out? Im sure most of your prayers were answered.

As for my gratitude to Allah SWT, I'd like to share some of the miracles I have received from Allah Ar Rahman Ar Rahim. How Allah always answered my prayers.

1.Allah gave me jobs when I needed it the most.
2.I got sick for a month last year during Ramadan, thought I was dying but Allah healed me.
3.and this one next happens everytime Im broke : Allah gives me money!
4.I thank Allah SWT for giving me a second chance to make up my mistakes.

I'd like to hear some of yours too. Would you share your answered prayers ? It can be 1 or 2 or 10

Alhamdulillahi Rab-el'Alamin
Thank You God.

"sonrisa"


http://www.whyislam.org...

In that topic, there are other testemonies from Muslims that have recieved answered prayers from Islam.

You also claim that we have to pray WITHOUT sin in our hearts. However, we were all born with sin, according to the Bible, then how could God have answered our prayers of forgiveness?

Let us look at a couple of the parallel passages.

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. (John 15:7 NAB)

It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you. (John 15:16 NAB)

These two parallel passages LEAVE OUT the phrase in my name. You are asserting that there is more to it than that. However, looking at the scripture WHATEVER you want it will be done for you. Very clear what Jesus is saying.

In conclusion to this rebuttal

I have shown an example of a non-Christian prayer working
I have shown that Jesus WAS in fact saying that whatever you ask, you will recieve

On to RC3
My opponent claims that I am taking Matthew 24:34 OUT OF CONTEXT! (s)he asserts that the passage is talking about the day of pentecost and the establishment of the church.

Let us look at why this CANNOT be the case.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Let us look at the prophecy he gives
1. After the tribulation, the sun be darkened and the moon shall not shine (eclips)
2. The stars shall fall from heaven
3. All tribes shall mourn
4. Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven
5. Rapture
6. The generation shall not pass.

The word generation means this

1) fathered, birth, nativity

2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character

1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation

3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time

4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

http://www.blueletterbible.org...

Clearly the generation is long gone.

In this rebuttal

I have shown that Jesus was talking about that particular generation
I have shown that Jesus was talking about his second comming, NOT the day of pentecost.
I have shown that Jesus was a false prophet because his prophecy failed miserably.

KeytarHero

Pro

Again, I thank the Instigator for issuing this challenge. However, I don't think he fully appreciates the gravity of his accusation.

"Remember this debate is just for fun, but with a pinch of seriousness. "

You have called into question one of the most fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith. If you're right, then Christianity is a farce. If I'm right, then Christianity is the one true religion. That's not a light topic at all.

Evidence 1

My opponent has given a testimony of a Muslim who has prayed and allegedly received an answer for his prayer. However, this is not proof that his prayer, in fact, was answered. I don't know the person praying, and I don't think Kohai does either (since he apparently grabbed it from an on-line forum). He could just be saying his prayers were answered to try and prove Allah as the one true god, or he could be interpreting circumstances in his life as an answer to prayer when in fact they were simply coincidence. There's no way to be sure for the purposes of this debate since in order to adequately prove his prayers were answered, we would have to prove that Allah is the one true god. If the God of the Bible is the one true God (and this debate is about Christianity), then this Muslim's prayers would not have been answered since he wasn't praying to God who exists.

1 John 1:9 says that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. These prayers God hears and answers if we have unconfessed sin in our hearts. God wants us to live lives of holiness. Obviously, we can't. But this is His standard for us. If we stumble and fall into sin, we need to repent of our sins to be reconciled again to God. Sin separates us from Him. Before we can have our prayers answered, we need to confess our sins to God.

"These two parallel passages LEAVE OUT the phrase in my name."

Because they're not necessary. I already mentioned that we must take the Scriptures as a whole, and not just take one or two verses out of context, as you continue to do. We must pray in Jesus' name, but as John 15:7 points out we must remain in Christ and He in us. This means that we ask according to His will because by abiding in Him, He changes us from the inside so that we no longer ask in selfishness, but with a selfless attitude. If we ask in selfishness, we won't get what we want (we're not supposed to covet). But God loves us like a father, and the things that we desire He wants to give those to us, as our own earthly fathers would.

John 15:16 is similar. Jesus chose us so that we could bear fruit (do good things) and ask the Father that He'll give us what we ask for. If we abide (live) in Christ, our desires change so that we no longer ask selfishly.

Response to Kohai's conclusion:

He has not shown an example of a non-Christian prayer working, only an alleged one. He has offered no proof that the prayer, in fact, worked and therefore has not satisfied the burden of proof in that example.

Also, he has not show that Jesus was saying we'll received everything we ask for. He continually takes verses out of context, and refuses to take the Scriptures as a whole (as we must to properly understand them). The Bible says much on prayer, and we cannot simply take one or two verses out of context and claim that we understand how prayer works.

Evidence 2

Kohai has dropped evidence 2, therefore I have proven that he has, in fact, taken Jesus' words out of context and his alleged evidence was false.

Evidence 3

"My opponent claims that I am taking Matthew 24:34 OUT OF CONTEXT!"

You did take it out of context. You quoted only that verse rather than the passage it comes from, thereby taking it out of context.

As for this passage, it is indeed about the Second Coming. According to Bible commentator Matthew Henry, "Christ foretells his second coming. It is usual for prophets to speak of things as near and just at hand, to express the greatness and certainty of them." [1] What he is saying is that Christ didn't literally mean this generation will not pass away before these things happen, however, He was speaking as if it was so to underscore the important and urgency of His second coming, and how every Christian must be ready for the time when He does return. It is not without precedent for Christ to use figurative language. He also referred to Himself as "the door," "the vine," etc.

Response to Kohai's conclusion:

Kohai has not shown that Jesus literally meant "that generation." Jesus often spoke in figurative language to His disciples (e.g. His many parables). This was no different.

Jesus was indeed speaking of His second coming in this passage. However, Kohai has not shown "this generation" meant literally the generation He was speaking to.

Kohai has not shown that Jesus' prophecy has failed miserably. Jesus was speaking of the urgency and importance of this event so that every person in every generation must be ready for it.

Thank you for your time, and I look forward to Kohai's response.

[1] http://www.christnotes.org...;(section on Matthew 24: 29-41).
Debate Round No. 2
kohai

Con

kohai forfeited this round.
KeytarHero

Pro

Well, Kohai has forfeited the debate and apparently his account has been closed. This should go without saying, but please vote Pro.
Debate Round No. 3
KeytarHero

Pro

Kohai has forfeited the debate and closed his account. Again, please vote Pro.
Debate Round No. 4
kohai

Con

Please vote for my opponent. I appologize for this inconvinence.
KeytarHero

Pro

Again, please vote Pro as my opponent has forfeited the debate. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by kohai 5 years ago
kohai
not as bad as I use to be.
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
And you're still a terrible debater.
Posted by kohai 5 years ago
kohai
this was debated a long tome ago.
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
Kohai, you really are a terrible debater...
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
Oh, no way. Kohai's account has been deactivated.
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
I will take this debate. After all, the point of debating is not to convince your opponent but the readers or audience. If Kohai is being disingenuous by taking verses out of context (as he is apparently doing -- either on purpose or by not researching enough, I don't know), then that will just shine badly upon him.
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
DimmitriC. don't try to comment. You'll turn this into a circus like you usually do.
Posted by Merda 5 years ago
Merda
Perhaps you should take it.
Posted by SkepticsAskHere 5 years ago
SkepticsAskHere
I encourage any Christian to NOT take this debate. Now why? because kohai is taking several verses out of context to support his worldview. This debate is just going to be pointless.
Posted by kohai 5 years ago
kohai
Then take it
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
kohaiKeytarHeroTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit.