The Instigator
rthomas370
Pro (for)
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The Contender
Ozzyhead
Con (against)
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Was Jesus The Messiah?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/8/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 457 times Debate No: 60167
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
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rthomas370

Pro

1) Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies that were written about Him in the Old Testament.

2) Jesus performed multiple miracles

3) Jesus rose from the dead
Ozzyhead

Con

Please define messiah so that I can debate this property.

Until then, I will argue that Jesus may have not existed in the way many believe. Note: biblical evidence is not evidence at all, so please demonstrate how Jesus could have rose from the dead and fulfilled the prophecy with using evidence to back it up. If you ignore my request to prove Jesus lived as many believe, then at least prove how he could defy the laws of nature. This is not a debate about existence, however, showing proof of existence makes it easier to believe your claims.
In my mind. Again, I accept that it is likely an ancient person named Jesus existed, but I want evidence that he was able to fulfill the prophecy. You say Jesus was the messiah and you give reasons on why that claim is true, but you have no evidence backing your reasoning.
Debate Round No. 1
rthomas370

Pro

More specifically, Jesus was exactly who He said He was. He was God.

And I'm sorry but I believe the Bible to be historically accurate. Even more so than some of the history books we have. And here is one reason I believe it to be accurate, and I believe Jesus to be God.

The Bible was written by many different people, not just one person who had a "vision from God." The Old Testament starts with Moses' writings. Then we have some of the major prophets (Ezekiel, Jeremiah.. etc.) Then we have King David's writings (most of Psalms and some of proverbs.) Then in the New Testament we have the four gospels, written by four of Jesus' close disciples. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Then we have The Epistles of Paul, (Romans through Philemon, possibly Hebrews as well.) Then we have John, Peter, and James writings. And then Revelations was written by John.

People who lived in the New Testament time era only had the OT as scriptures to study. When the last book of the OT was written (Malachi) there was a 400 year silence period before the book of Matthew (NT) was written.

Ok, so the Bible was written by multiple people who were very credible. It was not written by anyone random who people didn't know about.

Now I will list a few of the OT prophesies, and how they were fulfilled in the NT.
A = Old Testament Prophecy of Jesus Christ
B = New Testament Prophecy Fulfilled

A) "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times."
Micah 5:2

B) "After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem."
Matthew 2:1

A) "He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not."
Isaiah 53:3

B) "For not even his brothers believed in him."
John 7:5

A) And he said, "Go, and say to this people:

""Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
keep on seeing, but do not perceive."
Make the heart of this people dull,
and their ears heavy,
and blind their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."
Isaiah 6:9-10

B) Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:

"I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."
Matthew 13:34-35

A) I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
Psalms 2:7

B) And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."
Matthew 3:16-17

A) "The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
to proclaim the year of the Lord"s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn."
Isaiah 61:1-2

B) "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
Luke 4:18-19

A) Even my close friend,
someone I trusted,
one who shared my bread,
has turned against me.
Psalm 41:9

B) "While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, but Jesus asked him, 'Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?'"
Luke 22:47-48

A) "Through the praise of children and infants
you have established a stronghold against your enemies,
to silence the foe and the avenger."
Psalm 8:2

B) "Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him.

"Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read,

""From the lips of children and infants
you, Lord, have called forth your praise?"
Matthew 21:16

A) "Ruthless witnesses come forward;
they question me on things I know nothing about."
Psalm 35:11

B) "Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: "We heard him say, "I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.""
Mark 14:57-58

A) "He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth."
Isaiah 53:7

B) "So again Pilate asked him, 'Aren"t you going to answer? See how many things they are accusing you of.'
But Jesus still made no reply, and Pilate was amazed."
Mark 15:4-5

A) "Those who hate me without reason
outnumber the hairs of my head;
many are my enemies without cause,
those who seek to destroy me.
I am forced to restore
what I did not steal."
Psalm 69:4

B) "If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: "They hated me without reason.""
John 15:24-25

A) "Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors."
Isaiah 53:12

B) "They crucified two rebels with him, one on his right and one on his left."
Mark 15:27-28

A) "They put gall in my food
and gave me vinegar for my thirst."
Psalm 69:21

B) "Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, 'I am thirsty.' A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus" lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, 'It is finished.' With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."
John 19:28-30

A) "Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet."
Psalm 22:16

B) "So the other disciples told him, 'We have seen the Lord!'

But he said to them, 'Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.'
A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you!' Then he said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.'"
John 20:25-27

A) "All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
"He trusts in the Lord," they say,
"let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
Psalm 22:7-8

B) The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is God"s Messiah, the Chosen One."
Luke 23:35

A) "They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment."
Psalm 22:18

B) "Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.' And they divided up his clothes by casting lots."
Luke 23:34

A) "he protects all his bones,
not one of them will be broken."
Psalm 34:20

B) "But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus" side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"
John 19:33-36

A) "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?"
Psalm 22:1

B) "About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?' (which means 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?')."
Matthew 27:46

A) "In return for my friendship they accuse me,
but I am a man of prayer."
Psalm 109:4

B) "Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.' And they divided up his clothes by casting lots."
Luke 23:34

A) "because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
nor will you let your faithful one see decay."
Psalm 16:10

B) "There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

The angel said to the women, 'Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples: "He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him." Now I have told you.'"
Matthew 28:2-7

A)"Lift up your heads, you gates;
be lifted up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
Who is this King of glory?
The Lord strong and mighty,
the Lord mighty in battle.
Lift up your heads, you gates;
lift them up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
Who is he, this King of glory?
The Lord Almighty"
he is the King of glory."
Psalm 24:7-10

B) "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God."
Mark 16:19

A) "Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."
Psalm 110:1

B) "The Lord said to my Lord:
'Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.'"
Matthew 22:44

A) "But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all."

He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the Lord"s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors."
Isaiah 53:5-12

B) "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 5:6-8
Ozzyhead

Con

Ozzyhead forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
rthomas370

Pro

Just to sum up my argument..

1) The Bible is not like any other book in that it was not written by one person. It was written by multiple people (who people respected) at different times.

2) There was a 400 year gap between the OT and the NT... So there is no way the OT and NT writers could had collaborated together to create one big story.

3) All the prophecies in the old Testament all came true in the new testament.

The only argument that could debunk this would be that Jesus one by on went and tried to fulfill each prophecy. In order to do this, Jesus would had to conspire with the soldiers who crucified Jesus.

Here is an example of some prophesies.

A) "They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment."
Psalm 22:18

B) "Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.' And they divided up his
clothes by casting lots."
Luke 23:34

I'm sure the soldiers had no idea they were fulfilling a prophecy of Jesus in that moment.

A) "They put gall in my food
and gave me vinegar for my thirst."
Psalm 69:21

B) "Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus
said, 'I am thirsty.' A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a
stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus" lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, 'It
is finished.' With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."
John 19:28-30

Whats interesting with this prophecy is it was the last prophecy that needed to be fulfilled. That is why Jesus says "It is finished." 1) the prophecy of the vinegar was fulfilled. and 2) Jesus had control of the last breath He would take... He gave up His Spirit.
Ozzyhead

Con

Ozzyhead forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Ozzyhead 2 years ago
Ozzyhead
None of this debate's notifications were brought to my attention
Posted by rthomas370 2 years ago
rthomas370
No you didn't. The one website didn't prove anything, all the verses were misinterpreted.
Posted by SocialistAtheistNutjob 2 years ago
SocialistAtheistNutjob
I've already debunked this claim in our current debate.
No votes have been placed for this debate.