The Instigator
Finalfan
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
sweetbreeze
Pro (for)
Winning
10 Points

Was Jesus necessary?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
sweetbreeze
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/10/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,042 times Debate No: 35457
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (129)
Votes (3)

 

Finalfan

Con

My argument is that Jesus did not need to exist to begin with.. Pretty simple but I imagine a very complex reaction will be my response! Explain to me the relevance or need for said deity. Should be a fun debate!
sweetbreeze

Pro

I accept the challenge the OP/Instigater has presented.

Now, why wasn't Jesus necessary? I mean, it's like saying that I don't need to exist, but I feel that I DO need to exist. And it's like saying that some random person out there doesn't need to exist. But Jesus was major important to exist, because He died on the cross to pay for all our sins. Without Him, we would have gone straight to Hell, because we can't live without sinning. Now, after He died for our sins, anyone who's Christian, whether they sinned or not will go to Heaven.

You got anything to say, Con?
Debate Round No. 1
Finalfan

Con

To be clear. I have nothing but respect for the character Jesus in the bible... well at least his moral teachings. The problem with Jesus is that he is the catalyst for eternal human suffering. There were many religions before the time of Jesus that had very cruel and mischievous gods that played tricks on humans and cause pain and fear to all that existed.. while they were alive. It wasn't until meek and mild Jesus Christ came around that a God has threatened to continue to torture us even after death! In this debate we will need to cover the basics and start from the beginning: The Fall of Lucifer, Genesis vs Evolution, Adam and Eve/original sin, Jesus (crucifixion and miracles)I begin at the fall of Lucifer because it is the true origin of the complex myth (original sin) we of course cannot even discuss "original sin" unless we discuss "free will"! I want to add a potent observation that will add some objectivity to my argument; The major religions on this planet have a pattern of geographical distribution not unlike species variations in other animals! http://www.google.com...

I am very familiar with the description of God in the bible: Benevolent, Omniscient, and omnipotent. (He is also seen as omnipresent, a "loving father" and "judge and executioner")

1. Omnipotent or "all powerful: If there was an omnipotent being it would have the power to create any type of existence it wanted for itself and anything it creates! It could have created the universe in any shape and form that it desired. It chose an existence with pain, misery, death, extinction, viruses, parasites, earthquakes, tsunamis, famine, etc.. in this creation these things are not only experienced in life but also following death! Without any lesson to be learned or evidence to know its real! Hell is a permanent punishment without any purpose but malice and evil. That is what was created out of all of the possibilities? Horrifying!

2.Omniscient or "all knowing": Now this is where the fall of Lucifer is important. God created the Angels and then humans. When he designed them he knew that Lucifer would hate his "favorite" creation because of jealousy and rebel. He knew that when he created Adam he would taste of the fruit sprouting original sin into existence (leaving us with an impossible burden to accept). He knew this would some how require a blood ritual to atone for the actions of Adam "life for a life" (epitome of convoluted)So he sent his son to be born of a virgin, to evangelize the word of God and to be crucified as the "final sacrifice" to tie up the loop that began at "God knowing everything" which leads me to...

3. Benevolent or "loving father": In Gods case he is given impunity regardless of the obvious lack of existing "fatherly characteristics"! One thing that any father should know is that you do not sentence your child to infinite suffering because of what it believes. A good father wants them to find their way but does not turn his back when the child fails! I am left to believe that I am more benevolent than this "God" because I can come up with an infinitely better existence for all of us!

That should give you a good idea of where I'm coming from, anyways I want to circle back to "free will" This is an elusive concept because I do believe we have free will just not in the sense you might think. I believe that free will is a discipline of the mind that transcends environmental and physical limitations that exist as humans on this planet. The environment plays a huge role in your discipline to choose. (I refer you to look at the map in the link that I provided previously) When you mix that with mental illness and human manipulation the concept of "free will" blends into a memory response system that is merely reacting to its surroundings! Hardly room for choice! I invite you to consider the role that your environment and mental stability has played and shaping your illusion of choice. I do believe in "mind over matter" as a remarkable discipline that can create anomalies in the system of cause and effect that control most of our actions (including which God to believe in) On that note given the punishment for choosing the "wrong path" with such a fleeting ability to actually choose, then having a child is the most irresponsible thing you can do because the chances are that they will not believe in such nonsense and be condemned to fiery hell spa are too great. So why would you have a child if the process ends in a high probability of its soul only knowing pain for all existence!?

Now I will get to it... Evolution! Not sure what you have learned but evolution and Genesis do not exactly compliment each other (holy understatement) The earth is not 10000 years old, Humans did not come from Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. (Noah's ark and the great flood did not happen) The myth of original sin has not source! Its well has run dry and its horrifying implications that a peaceful carpenter would have to die! Jesus may have existed, he may have even been crucified but it was to satisfy the blood lust of the humans that were carrying out his torture! The house of cards crumble and we have a SYSTEM ERROR!

In closing I guess I should be honest. There is a possibility that you are right and I am just another lost soul destined for Satan's army! I say to you.. Why in the crap would you want to believe this is true. Technically there is an equal chance that tinkerbell exists in reality and frankly I would rather believe in that!
sweetbreeze

Pro

Look, this is just simple. Saying that Jesus didn't need to exist is like saying some random person out there doesn't need to exist. I know, you might not want to believe in that, but it doesn't mean that it's crap. This is religion. It's about what you and other people believe. Jesus existed in order to save people from suffering in Hell.

I know what you meant when you said that you'd rather believe that Tinker Belle and Franky existed rather than believing in Christianity, but this is religion, not some fantasy, so don't bring some fantasy out there to speak with religion.

"I say to you.. Why the crap would you want to believe this is true." Why are you directing this at someone else, when it's you that is not believing it? There are many Christians out there, you know, and they believe this is true. Anyway, you should have put a question mark there instead of a full stop.

You got anything to say? And please don't bring in some fantasy this time.
Debate Round No. 2
Finalfan

Con

Finalfan forfeited this round.
sweetbreeze

Pro

I'll take that as a no.

Jesus died on the cross for our wrongdoings. If He didn't, we wouldn't be able to go to Heaven. I know, some people wouldn't want to believe this, but many people would. This might be annoying, but, I repeat: Saying that Jesus didn't need to exist is like saying some random person out there doesn't need to exist.

"I say to you.. Why the crap would you want to believe this is true." This was directed at someone else, when it's you who didn't want to believe it. I know, there are others that don't believe this either, but there are also people that do want to believe it. A full stop should be replaced by a question mark.

You got anything to say, Con? And again, don't bring in some fantasy to talk with religion.

Sources:
http://www.jesuscentral.com...
http://www.gci.org...
http://delveintojesus.com...;

Debate Round No. 3
Finalfan

Con

Finalfan forfeited this round.
sweetbreeze

Pro

No again! Oh, well.

I'll have to say that Jesus WAS necessary. I know many people wouldn't want to believe this, but, without him, we would have gone straight to Hell. He died for all our sins. He suffered most severely through trials, torture and crucifixion. Many people plotted to kill Him.

I'll do proper arguments again when my opponent is back.

About Jesus:
Debate Round No. 4
Finalfan

Con

Finalfan forfeited this round.
sweetbreeze

Pro

Thank you, Finalfan. I really liked debating you. And until next time, get debating!
Debate Round No. 5
129 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by sweetbreeze 3 years ago
sweetbreeze
Could you please listen for once? I USED TO believe that in Jesus not long ago, but now I switched back to being Buddhist. Don't make judgments when you don't know the truth. Stop jumping to conclusions. What is your problem? Why are you always minding our businesses? Don't you have your own businesses to mind? I can't believe you are 41 and you lack so much maturity, tolerance, logic and common sense. Your logic fails starting from the point that you called people immature and intolerant for having and supporting beliefs, when you are attacking religions. You don't respect this religion, so how do you expect people to respect your way of expressing yourself with Christianity? You have to think about what you do wrong as well as what others do wrong. When you do something wrong and people tell you off, listen to them and them work on becoming a better person. If others do something wrong, don't start swearing and calling them names. Haven't you heard the saying or "Two wrongs don't make a right"? Stop abusing religious things and stop bothering people on this site with your silly attacks and complaints. And please make sure you get this through your mind. Haven't you ever learnt respect in school before?
Posted by devient.genie 3 years ago
devient.genie
sandy, youre a murder worshipper. Your little friend sweetbreeze is so brainwashed she admitted she doesnt believe in god but she is a buddhist who believes in jesus.

Now go grab your stupid book and read about how it says humans are the result of incest.

Denying evolution and crying about being made fun of wont make your god anymore real :)
Posted by Sandy8 3 years ago
Sandy8
Devient.genie, why did you ignore everything sweetbreeze said in that post? Could it be because you had no reponse? Probably. Why? Because she was right in that comment. This was never about her, you just wanted to attack her because you knew she was right in everything she said. She is not an expression bigot, all she did was defend and protect the rights of religion and beliefs, while all you did was insult her. I think that shows who the mature one is. By the way, it's hard to repect someone's expression if that expression is just plain hateful and rude. It doesn't make it worth respect.

You are blaming the murder and evil of this world on God? Really? It is humans who created these things, not God. God is the one who warned us about the violence, but we are too stubborn to listen. Stop blaming man's mistake on God. He didn't allow anything, He gave us a mind to think and we misused it.

With all due respect, I find it funny how you think you don't need a Holy book to teach you morals, yet you don't seem to have any. What moral person attacks others' beliefs? What moral person tries to insult a 14-year-old? Sweetbreeze is not the hypocrite here, sir, you are.

This is a debate website, where you are supposed to express your beliefs in a civil manner and listen to what others have to say. If you do not want to do that, and just want to attack religion, here are some great sites:
http://www.achristianandanatheist.com...
http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk...
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com...

You can happily take your thoughts there where people will care. Sweetbreeze and I are done dealing with you.
Goodbye, and good luck with your life. :)
Posted by devient.genie 3 years ago
devient.genie
You just need some True Scripture to deal with your expression bigotry and your inability to respect expression :)

If you were all knowing, all powerful and all loving, would you allow thousands of human birth defects?

Thoughts 1:25-- If so, Why? Are you lazy, impotent, evil or fake? :)
Posted by sweetbreeze 3 years ago
sweetbreeze
Respect and attack are two different things. I do not respect that you are attacking Christianity, but I never ATTACKED your expression.
But you, on the other hand, are attacking all of religion. It is you who is intolerant of others' beliefs. Stop being a hypocrite. This was never about me. You are only trying to change the subject because you have no logical explanation for your hypocrisy. All I am hearing from you is "I know you are but what am I?" Save it. This isn't about me. This is about your intolerance and hypocrisy.
What makes you think insulting me will do anything? This was never about me. All I am doing is defending those who you are trying to hurt.
Posted by devient.genie 3 years ago
devient.genie
This is your statement:

"I respect your beliefs, everyone has their own beliefs, but I can't respect the way you are expressing them."

You said right there that you dont respect my way of expressing my beliefs. You cant do that, thats intolerance, everyones expressions are equal, you are disrespecting my way of expression.

Thats expression bigotry, you are a bigot who disrespects peoples way of expressing themselves.

If you were in charge of the world you would Not respect peoples rights to express themselves.

It figures you would be an expression bigot, you are already a fake buddhist jesus lover who doesnt believe in god but uses sources about god in her debates.

You expression bigots are all the same, always Not respecting peoples expressions that arent like yours
Posted by devient.genie 3 years ago
devient.genie
This is your statement:

"I respect your beliefs, everyone has their own beliefs, but I can't respect the way you are expressing them."

You said right there that you dont respect my way of expressing my beliefs. You cant do that, thats intolerance, everyones expressions are equal, you are disrespecting my way of expression.

Thats expression bigotry, you are a bigot who disrespects peoples way of expressing themselves.

If you were in charge of the world you would Not respect peoples rights to express themselves.

It figures you would be an expression bigot, you are already a fake buddhist jesus lover who doesnt believe in god but uses sources about god in her debates.

You expression bigots are all the same, always Not respecting peoples expressions that arent like yours
Posted by sweetbreeze 3 years ago
sweetbreeze
Your choice of a response is basically trying to take what you are and blaming it on me and saying "ha ha in your face" Seriously? Why do I even bother coming up with a real response for you? Did I ever tell you to express yourself the way I do? No, I didn't, but I what I DID say was that this website is not for attacking religion, which is what you are doing.
Posted by devient.genie 3 years ago
devient.genie
You attacked my way of expressing myself. You are an expression nazi, you want everyone to express like you.

Well too bad, freedom of speech isnt designed to protect words like I love you, its designed to protect me from intolerant people like you who dont want to hear things that they dont like to hear.

You are an intolerant expression nazi fake buddhist hypocritical jesus lover who doesnt believe in god yet uses sources that promote god in her debates.

Youre a fraud
Posted by sweetbreeze 3 years ago
sweetbreeze
You are the intolerant one, Mr. I did not attack Atheism. You attacked Christianity.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by JustinAMoffatt 3 years ago
JustinAMoffatt
FinalfansweetbreezeTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by GOP 3 years ago
GOP
FinalfansweetbreezeTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con forfeited and Pro used sources.
Vote Placed by Inductivelogic 3 years ago
Inductivelogic
FinalfansweetbreezeTied
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Total points awarded:31 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct to Pro due to FF. Arguments to Con. In one round that he actually posted something, he thrashed Pro around like a helpless puppy. Provided better points and did not argue out of personal opinion