The Instigator
CapAhab
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
brontoraptor
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Was Jesus the messiah?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/17/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 351 times Debate No: 86633
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

CapAhab

Con

I argue that Jesus was not the messiah. My opponent will have the burden of the proof.

1, 2 or 3 points per arguments and indicate clearly why it proves that Jesus is the messiah.
Do not put 365 prophecies.

The Hebrew Scriptures (Old testament) will be the only authoritative document.

My opponent may put his arguments right away. I have no arguments as the burden of the proof is on my opponent. My opponent may put more arguments on the other rounds (except the last one). I only have to provide reasonable reason why his arguments cannot lead to the belief the Jesus is the messiah.
brontoraptor

Pro

In Zechariah the prophet, Zechariah, is told by God that theywill look upon he who is pierced. Jesus was pierced. We are also told they will be upset over Him as if for a son. People declare him the "Son of God" in horror in Matthew after an earthquake and other events.

-----

And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
(Zechariah 12:10)

--

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and immediately came there out blood and water.
(John 19:34)

--

When the centurion saw what had happened, he gave glory to God, saying, "Surely this was a righteous man."
(Luke 23:47)

When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son of God!"
(Matthew 27:54)

And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died, he said, "Surely this man was the Son of God!"
(Mark 15:39)

-----

This is a clear representation of Zechariah hearing a voice from God saying He will be pierced and mourned over. We also have the declared fulfillment in the New Testament.
Debate Round No. 1
CapAhab

Con

"Zechariah 12"

Let us look at the context of the verse:

"On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

Does that looks like anything before Jesus crucifixion? No. Why, because it is a siege against Jerusalem

"The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honour of the house of David and of Jerusalem"s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

Then G-d will make the people of Jerusalem supernaturally strong to defend themselves.
Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on me, whom they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

on me (that's G-d), the people will turn to G-d.

whom they have pierced
The Hebrew words "et asher" are not
found very often in scripture. When they do occur together the
phrase is read as "concerning whom" or "concerning
that" but never as "whom".
https://jewsforjudaism.org...

And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords],
http://www.chabad.org...

And I will pour upon the house of David, And upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, The spirit of grace and of supplication; And they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; And they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, And shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born JPS Tanakh 1917
http://biblehub.com...

"and they will mourn for him"
Please note that the Him is different than the He.

On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
First, it has not happened yet. So it would be considered a second coming prophecy of Jesus. Jerusalem never wept for Jesus!

Second, Megiddo is the place Josiah was slain in battle. Thus, it still talks about war
http://biblehub.com...

The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

So the whole passage talks about war, and it has not happen yet. This has nothing to do with Jesus if you look the passage in context. Furthermore, if it would be Jesus, it has not happened yet and will only happen when Jesus comes back. A prophecy that has not happened yet (the Jews morning for Jesus) could not be used to prove Jesus is the messiah!
brontoraptor

Pro

Jesus is referred to as the "Savior of the world".

They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world." (John 4:42)

--

Life only comes from Jesus according to Himself.

Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

(John 6:53)

--

1)He had power over demons.

2)Demons refer to Him as the holy one.

Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with you, you Jesus of Nazareth? are you come to destroy us? I know you who you are; the Holy One of God.

(Luke 4:34)

--

1)He has power over demons.

2)Demons refer to Him as "the messiah".

Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Messiah.

(Luke 4:41)

--

Jesus refers to Himself as the "Lord of the Sabbath".

Then Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

(Luke 6:5)

--

In John 10:11, Jesus refers to Himself as "the shepherd". In Psalms 23:1 the "Lord" is his shepherd.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

(John 10:11)

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not lack.

(Psalms 23:1)

--

Jesus is testified by God as God's Son.

We accept human testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.

(1John 5:9)

--

Jesus is "the Word" in the Bible. The word is one as God.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

(1 John 5:7)

--

Jesus speaks about His death and power over death.

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

(Matthew 12:40)

--

Jesus commands the angels. It is His kingdom.

The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

(Matthew 13:41)

--

Peter refers to Him as "the Son of God" and as "the messiah".

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

(Matthew 16:16)

--

The church belongs to Jesus.

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

(Matthew 16:18)

--

Jesus comes in the glory of God and is the rewarder of mankind.

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

(Matthew 16:27)

--

He has the power over death.

They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life." And the disciples were filled with grief.

(Matthew 17:23)

--

He can save one from their sins.

For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

(Matthew 18:11)

--

When followers gather, He is with them.

For where two or three gather together as my followers, I am there among them."

(Matthew 18:20)

--

He sits on the throne.

Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Matthew 19:28)

--

He is referred to as the Son of David.

But when the chief priests and the teachers of the law saw the wonderful things he did and the children shouting in the temple courts, "Hosanna to the Son of David," they were indignant.

(Matthew 21:15)

--

He was called "Son of David" in reference to this Old Testament verse.

“When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.” (II Samuel 7:12-14)

Here is a dialogue explaining that Jesus is the seed of David whether you go through His mother, Mary, or through His adopted fsther, Joseph. Both family trees lead to King David.

Debate Round No. 2
CapAhab

Con

As per round 1, The Hebrew Scriptures (Old testament) will be the only authoritative document.

Nevertheless I will answer some of his points.

"John 4:42"
This is irrelevant to know if Jesus was the messiah.

(John 6:53)
That's a creepy quote that needs some explanation! Because the communion was not in effect yet, how could people understood what Jesus was talking about? This is irrelevant to know if Jesus was the messiah.

"1)He had power over demons."
and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) (AKA JESUS HIMSELF) "and let us worship them," Deuteronomy 13:2
This cannot be used to prove he is the messiah

"Jesus refers to Himself as the "Lord of the Sabbath"."
Many people claimed many things.
For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Messiah,' and will deceive many. Matthew 24:5

"John 10:11"
Jim Jones claimed to be the a prophet of god, that does not make it so!

"Jesus is testified by God as God's Son."
Only in the knew testament. The NT is bias and tries to show Jesus is the messiah.
But these are written so that you may continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah John 20:31

"He has the power over death."
Again, miracles cannot be used to prove Jesus is the messiah Deuteronomy 13:2

"For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. "
G-d is the only savior
I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior Isa 43:11

"He sits on the throne."
This is in heaven, and just because Jesus said so, does not mean it is true!

"He is referred to as the Son of David."

First let us look at Matthew's genealogy found in Matthew 1
https://www.biblegateway.com......... 1

And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.

First Matthew's genealogy is useless. The whole Genealogies go through the father. Joseph is not the biological father of Jesus. Thus, his genealogy does not count. As an example, if the High Priest would have had adopted a son, this son would not have been able to serve in the temple. So the whole genealogy is useless.

" And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ."

Furthermore, the lineage goes to a curse person:

Jeremiah 22:29-30
Is this man Jehoiachin (Jeconiah) a despised, broken pot, an object no one wants? Why will he and his children be hurled out, cast into a land they do not know? O land, land, land, hear the word of the LORD! This is what the LORD says: "Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah.

Second Luke's genealogy:
https://www.biblegateway.com......... 3
First, this is not Mary's genealogy. This an attempt to justify the contradiction between the two genealogies. But let us say that it is really Mary's genealogy.

Mary's genealogy is useless as well. The lineage must come from the father side. For example, if Aaron would have had daughters, their sons could not have serve in the Temple as the High Priest.

The genealogies are passed only through the father in the whole Hebrew Bible.
"But the land shall be divided by lot. They shall receive their inheritance according to the names of the tribes of their fathers. Numbers 26:55

Furthermore, the line of the messiah must come from Solomon, not Nathan.

1 Chronicles 29:1 "Then King David said to the whole assembly: "My son Solomon, the one whom God has chosen"

Finally. Both Lines have Zerubbabel and Shealtiel

Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. 13 Zerubbabel begot Abiud (Matthew)

the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri (Luke)

Zerubbabel could have had 2 sons and one would have been the father of Joseph and the other the father of Mary. Shealtiel must have only one father. Sometimes, that person can have 2 names, but the rest of the genealogy must stay the same. Because of that, it is another contradiction in the genealogy. Furthermore, that would not "by-pass" the curse, if we still talk about the son of Jehoiachin (Jeconiah).

For that reason, Jesus is not a descendant of King David and could not be the messiah.
brontoraptor

Pro

My opponent puts great faith in semantical arguments. Let's look at reality.

"Jewish Rabbi identifies the messiah"


--

A child will be born, referred to as "Son", and He will be God.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

(Isaiah 9:6)

--

The passage of 'Isaiah 53' is known for its interpretation and use by Christian Theologians, many of whom identify the servant to be Christ Jesus. Many Christians view the chapter, and particularly this passage to refer to the Passion of Christ as well as the absolution of sins believed to be made possible by his death.


--

Isaiah 53

Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.

He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he has borne our griefs

and carried our sorrows;

yet we esteemed him stricken,

smitten by God, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities;

upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.

By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?

And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.

Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

--

Jesus in New Testament

Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."

(Matthew 26:38)

For the time has come for this prophecy about me to be fulfilled: 'He was counted among the transgressors.' Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true."

(Luke 22:37)

Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

(John 19:34)

This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading: "He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

(Acts 8:32)

What happened?


There were no more prophecies and Jesus was born.

Approximately 400 years after the Old Testament was completed, Jesus Christ was born into the earth, after which God spoke through “His Son” in the prophets and in the Nrw Testament.

www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/spiritual/home_study/any_prophets.htm

--

The Jews, God's people", have faced annihilation.

"Evil"


"The army of Evil"


Up until the 1960s, the "Protestant establishment" (the seven mainline denominations of Baptists, Congregationalists, Disciples, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, and Presbyterians) dominated the scene in the U.S.A.

nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/twenty/tkeyinfo/trelww2.htm

'Most Americans Christians'


--

Here is the Christian army that turned the war. Both of my grandfathers were in this march, and fought in this war. They told me that they were the "hand of God" and had bee called by God to protect God's people, the Jews. Who did God use to turn the war on Hitler's head? Christians.


"God brought me to this level for a reason."


"FDR's prayer"


My father's father told me,"Our generation proved once and for all that Jesus Christ is Lord, for we stared down the devil and found victory within certain defeat."
Debate Round No. 3
CapAhab

Con

"Jewish Rabbi identifies the messiah"
The author of the book is a Christian:
http://www.carlgallups.com...

Isaiah 9 talks about Ezekiah. Look at verse 11: "Therefore the Lord shall set up The adversaries of Rezin against him,"

Rezin is the same king spoken in Isaiah 7. The whole Isaiah 7,8,9 are related together and have nothing to do with Jesus.

To prove the point, look at Jeremiah 33:16 ""In those days Judah shall be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she shall be called: the LORD is our righteousness."

Jerusalem is actually god? No, people, places and even wells are call by the name of G-d. It does not mean that those people are god.

The name Ezekiah means "God is my strength." Thus it is a play on word. Furthermore, Jesus never had any government on his shoulder (let's then wait until he comes back!)

The whole passage is in the past tense:
יֻלַּד

Sons were also born יֻלַּד to Shem, whose older brother was Japheth; Shem was the ancestor of all the sons of Eber.

Yet again there was war at Gath, where there was a man of great stature, who had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number; and he also was born יֻלַּד to the giant.

And unto Eber were born יֻלַּד two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; because in his days the earth was divided: and his brother's name was Joktan.

Read in context, this passage has nothing to do with Jesus. Look at Rezin in verse 10!

'Isaiah 53'

For Isaiah 53:
he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high. Has not happened yet (second coming prophecy) It has not happened yet, so we have to wait if it really fits Jesus.

So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him. Does not fit Jesus (second coming prophecy?)

Now shall we desire him? Despised and rejected by men People wanted to crown Jesus,... That does not fit him.

a man of pains and accustomed to illness. Jesus?

despised and we held him of no account. Again crowds went around Jesus.

And he gave his grave to the wicked (Jesus grave was with the rich)

and to the wealthy with his kinds of death (Jesus cross was with two thieves..

he shall see children... This is Literal children, does Jesus have children?

he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand. That does not talk about Jesus in heaven!

Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public. Second coming again?

and with the strong he shall share plunder (Plunders is usually from war. Jesus did not share plunder!)

Finally on Isaiah 53:1, the nations are speaking, not Isaiah of the Jewish nation:

So let us start with the book of Isaiah. In context, Isaiah 53:1 has not happened yet. The righteous servant, whoever it is, has never been exalted and extolled, and never was very high (Isaiah 52:13). So Isaiah 53:1 will happen in the future. The speaker(s) of Isaiah 53:1 ask(s) an important question: "to whom has the arm of the L-rd revealed?" Somebody, or a group of people will ask this question. Looking back in the previous chapter, we see that the arm of the L-rd was revealed to the nations:

The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. Isaiah 52:10

Furthermore, the verse prior to Isaiah 53:1 say "So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider."

So, we see the the Servant of the L-rd will be revealed and all the kings, who have seen the arm of the L-rd, will have nothing to say. After some silence, they will speak "Who has believed our report... "

Finally, all instanced that the arm of the L-rd was revealed was as a Judgement against the nations.

First, G-d takes Israel out of Egypt with his mighty arm and judges Egypt:
Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, H2220 and with great judgments:
Exodus 6:6

With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: H2220 for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalm 136:12

Second, the arm of the L-rd was on Babylona and teh Chaldeans.
All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm H2220 shall be on the Chaldeans Isaiah 48:14

Again the people are judge.
My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms H2220 shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm H2220 shall they trust.

Here G-d redeemed Israel, his people,
Psalm 77:15
Thou hast with thine arm H2220 redeemed thy people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Selah.

So each time the "arm of the L-rd" is mentioned, it is for protecting Israel and judge the nations.

There is no reason whatsoever to think that the Jews would be speaking in Isaiah 53:1, in the context, only the kings of the nations would fit the description and the context of the verse.

Thus none of those passages refer to Jesus.
brontoraptor

Pro

My opponent says in one breath that the geneology must come from Joseph, His father, but that the "Father" is Jesus' father. He then rejects Mary's lineage, by reverting back to the father being the lineage. Based on his own logic, Jesus is the child of God, who would be the Father of David and all of humanity. This doesn't get around philosophical concepts.

We could say Jesus was "adopted" by Joseph, making Him the adopted "Son of David".

We could go through Mary, making Him the literal "Son of David".

We could go through both making him the adopted and literal "Son of David".

We could go through God as His Father, making Him literally and spiritually the "Son of David".

In the spirit of debate, my opponent has a problem here that he must answer for or rationalize.

1)The suffering servant of Isaiah has not come yet in his opinion, yet he is looking for a king, a dominating warlike figure. Will this dominating crusader be destroyed and afflicted, a man of sorrows giving himself an offering for sin, all the while conquering and being "victorious" all at once?

2) Isaiah 9:6

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

The child that is born IS God. He must be looking for:

1)A "God-man" to come in the future.

2)Someone for Jews and others to reject.

3)Someone who will be given as a ransom for sin.

Isaiah 53:3

"He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

Based on Isaiah 53, my opponent needs someone to be destroyed and led like a lamb to the slaughter, and all the while Jews will reject him.

--

If Jesus is not the Messiah, the New Testament is not true, and its prophecies should fall apart at the seems.

-(New Testament concerning the end of days)

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God." (Revelation 20:4)

And Islam loves beheading Christians.

-(Prophecy)

"But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces, a god whom his fathers knew not." (Daniel 11:38)

Note: When this prophecy was written Islam and "Allah" did not exist yet.

The Antichrist will sign a seven year covenant with Israel (Dan 9: 27). He will not fully honor that covenant but will break it somewhere in the middle of the 7 years. He has supernatural power.

Islam declares that the Mahdi will lead the Muslim armies to conquer Israel. Jerusalem will then be the location of the Caliphate and the center of Sharia rule. One hadith places the timing of this event when a final peace agreement is made between the Arabs and the Christians and mediated through a Jewish priest. This agreement is for 7 years. He is described as having supernatural power.


The Antichrist of the Bible will rule a one world government that worships a not-yet-existing "god". Allah did not exist until 600 years after the Bible's last words were written.

--

Islam is spreading in the world today faster than any other religion.


--

The Quran and Islam believe they will control the world under a one world Islamic government ruled by Sharia.

(Speaking of the Antichrist and those who follow its god)

Together they will go to war against the Lamb(The lamb being the symbol of Christ the "lamb of God", a symbol of Christianity.) (Revelation 17:14)

Headline: "ISIS declares war on the cross"


--

"Wars and rumors of wars..." (Matthew 24:6)

The world will be under distress with perplexity. (Luke 21:25)

-Donald Trump: "...Until we figure out what is going on."

--

-N. Korea threatens nucleur strike


-Russia warns of world war


--

"The great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up." (Revelation 16:12)

-Iraq says Turkey needs to release water from its dams to replenish the river in the former Fertile Crescent area where drought conditions endanger millions.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-01/water-shortages-unite-iraq-islamic-state-against-turkey

About 1/3 of people wiped out on Earth. (Revelation 9:18)

The world is split into approximate thirds. And Islam is the fastest growing religion on Earth, expected to catch Christianity soon. Christians , Muslims, and Other.

"Death to Israel, the U.S., and Britain"


We know Islam is Israel's greatest threat today. We also know that somehow the West(majority Christian) is Israel's greatest ally. Coincidence?
Debate Round No. 4
CapAhab

Con

"Based on his own logic, Jesus is the child of God, who would be the Father of David and all of humanity."
Or, the New Testament is not inspired, because Jesus could not be the messiah. Both lines don't work. Jesus genealogy forfeit him to be the messiah.

"We could say Jesus was "adopted" by Joseph, making Him the adopted "Son of David"."
Nowhere in the Bible there is an adopted son that was a priest or a king. The rest is speculation. But Joseph line is still curse.

In case of doubt we should follow what the Bible say:
These searched for their family records, but they could not find them and so were excluded from the priesthood as unclean.
Ezra 2:62. Because no other case of adopted son ever were allowed to be king of priest or Levites, we should exclude Jesus as a possible candidate.

We could go through Mary, making Him the literal "Son of David".
The Line pass through Nathan. The line must past through Solomon

"So now I charge you in the sight of all Israel and of the assembly of the Lord, and in the hearing of our God: Be careful to follow all the commands of the Lord your God, that you may possess this good land and pass it on as an inheritance to your descendants forever. 1 Chronicle 28

"We could go through God as His Father, making Him literally and spiritually the "Son of David"."
Let's not talk about ferries and imaginary situations here.

"The suffering servant of Isaiah has not come yet in his opinion"
The suffering servant of Isaiah is Israel

https://www.blueletterbible.org...

But thou, Israel, art my servant, H5650 Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; H5650 and Israel, whom I have chosen:

Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: H5650 I have formed thee; thou art my servant: H5650 O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.

For Jacob my servant's H5650 sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

And said unto me, Thou art my servant, H5650 O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants H5650 of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 9:6
Isaiah 9 talks about Ezekiah. Look at verse 11: "Therefore the Lord shall set up The adversaries of Rezin against him,"

Rezin is the same king spoken in Isaiah 7. The whole Isaiah 7,8,9 are related together and have nothing to do with Jesus.

To prove the point, look at Jeremiah 33:16 ""In those days Judah shall be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she shall be called: the LORD is our righteousness."

Jerusalem is actually god? No, people, places and even wells are call by the name of G-d. It does not mean that those people are god.

The name Ezekiah means "God is my strength." Thus it is a play on word. Furthermore, Jesus never had any government on his shoulder (let's then wait until he comes back!)

The whole passage is in the past tense:
יֻלַּד

Sons were also born יֻלַּד to Shem, whose older brother was Japheth; Shem was the ancestor of all the sons of Eber.

Yet again there was war at Gath, where there was a man of great stature, who had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number; and he also was born יֻלַּד to the giant.

And unto Eber were born יֻלַּד two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; because in his days the earth was divided: and his brother's name was Joktan.

Read in context, this passage has nothing to do with Jesus. Look at Rezin in verse 10!

"Based on Isaiah 53, my opponent needs someone to be destroyed and led like a lamb to the slaughter, and all the while Jews will reject him."
I don't have to find anybody, I only have to disprove Jesus. But, the servant of Isaiah 53 is rejected by men, not by the Jewish people.

"If Jesus is not the Messiah, the New Testament is not true, and its prophecies should fall apart at the seems."
Jesus was a false prophet:

Mat 16:28 say:
"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

The second is Mark 14:61-62
But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?" "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
http://www.debate.org...

""But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces, a god whom his fathers knew not." (Daniel 11:38)"
Jesus was a god his father did not know. Did Peter's father worshipped Jesus?

"Islam is spreading in the world today faster than any other religion."
Chrisianity and Islam could be the bronze and clay of the statue of Daniel 7. The son of man is Israel. But that's irrelevant to the subject!

"Wars and rumors of wars..." (Matthew 24:6)
There has been wars since the holy Christian empire!

Funny, the real messiah will be understood as a false messiah per all you christians and you will fight him! Read Gog and Magog, Psalm 83. But we will trust in the name of the L-rd!

"We know Islam is Israel's greatest threat today. We also know that somehow the West(majority Christian) is Israel's greatest ally. Coincidence?"
You are seeking the anhilation of Israel by your evangelism! Every time you convert a Jew, that's one less Jew on earth. He will not marry a Jewish wife and that's the end of his line as a Jew. Kiss the sword or kiss the cross and evangelism has the same result for Israel! Why do you think convert Jews cannot immigrate to Israel?
brontoraptor

Pro

The Hebrew Bible, thus the Hebrew God, drew a line in the sand at Abraham, declaring Ishmael's descendents the children of the slave(Hagar), and went on to say that the world would be blessed through Isaac, for his descendents were the "children of the free woman"(Sarai). Muslims right now, today, in real life refer to themselves as "Slaves of Allah".

"Muhammed froze the moral outlook of billions of people into the mind-set of the Arab desert in the seventh century. We were not just servants of Allah, we were slaves."

-Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ex Muslim

"Question: Who is a “slave” and what is slavery? How can we become the slaves of Allah?"

www.al-islam.org/faith-and-reason-ayatullah-mahdi-hadavi-tehrani/question-5-being-allah-s-servant

-

"But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."

(Genesis 21:12)

(Isaac, son of the free woman)

"I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed."

(Genesis 26:4)

Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was the descendent of Isaac.

"The land of the..."



--

Most Americans say they are Christians.


Christian charities are helping the world.


--

Are Jews confused by Father, Son, Holy Ghost?

*"Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness."

(Genesis 1:26)

*"When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the ground."

(Genesis 18:2)

"He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my Lord, do not pass your servant by."

(Genesis 18:3)

*And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell bound into the burning fiery furnace.

(Daniel 3:23)

He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

(Daniel 3:25)

-To say God would not be a man is completely contrary to Isaiah 9:6.

"For unto us a child is born. Unto us a Son is given...He shall be called...Allmighty God..."

--

-Christians celebrate Christmas in Israel


--

Jeremiah 9:24 — "But let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the Lord, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. FOR IN THESE I DELIGHT," says the Lord.

"The fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23), should be the hallmark of Christian behavior, especially love."

www.gotquestions.org/Christian-behavior.html

*(1 Corinthians 13:3-8)

3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,

5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,

6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;

7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8Love never fails.

*I would find it a confounding concept if God claimed to love and be merciful, while promising the Messiah, yet allowing the world to be deceived by Jesus who changed the world for the better and started the belief system that has defended the Jews as allies all this time, as a false Messiah & led the inspiration of their union with the Jews. If God allowed Jesus, as a false Messiah, to change peoples' lives for the better, moving them to help others and show compassion, and giving hope to the hopeless, then allowing them to build and flourish on the concepts of "Love God. Love your neighbor. Love your enemy. Pray for your enemies. Turn the other cheek. Be merciful. Forgive. Help the poor," what an ironic, cruel, and illogical ruse that would turn out to have been.

“Christian Pastor John Hagee: The Day America Turns Its Back on Israel, God Will Turn His Back on America."

"Who is this Jesus Christ? Who is this man who transcends the pages of history and changes the hearts of men?"

--

--

--

--

-Mother Teresa last speech


-World leaders and Billy Graham's final hope for America.


-Joyce Meyer on love


Martin Luther King Jr.


-The message


--

"We Believe"


"Praise you in this Storm"


"Christ is Risen"


"Not Alone"

Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by CapAhab 9 months ago
CapAhab
Oups , I meant why not... Sorry for the typo :)
Posted by CapAhab 9 months ago
CapAhab
Why no?
Posted by persianimmortal 9 months ago
persianimmortal
Should I? :)
No votes have been placed for this debate.