The Instigator
Leo.Messi
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
wowwhatwhy
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Was Martin Luther a good man?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Leo.Messi
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/19/2015 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,170 times Debate No: 68555
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (17)
Votes (1)

 

Leo.Messi

Con

Was Martin Luther a good man? This is not a debate about whether Lutheranism is good, but whether the man who founded it was a good man.
Terms of the Debate:
Martin Luther: "Martin Luther, OSA, (/G2;luH0;_2;ər/;[1] German: [G2;ma;2;Q5;tiH0;n G2;lA0;t;2;] ( listen); 10 November 1483 " 18 February 1546) was a German friar, Catholic priest, professor of theology and seminal figure of the 16th-century movement in Christianity known later as the Protestant Reformation.[2]"
good: "that which is morally right; righteousness."
man:human being

Thank you.
PS: I respect Lutheranism BUT I believe Martin Luther himself was not the man many think he was. He was good at first-but then he changed.
wowwhatwhy

Pro

Martin Luther was not a good woman as con may have you to believe, he was in fact a good man.

Martin is a boy's name.
Debate Round No. 1
Leo.Messi

Con

Martin Luther was not always good man-as you can see. He was at times bad man. He wrote and did some horrible things.
Allow to present my evidence...

I) Martin and the Jews.
"At the beginning of his career, Martin Luther was apparently sympathetic to Jewish resistance to the Catholic Church. However, he expected the Jews to convert to his purified Christianity; when they did not, he turned violently against them.

Luther used violent and vulgar language throughout his career. While we do not expect religious figures to use this sort of language in the modern world, but it was not uncommon in the early 16th century.

The following are excerpts from Luther's work entitled "The Jews & their Lies":"

"Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools..."
"Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people ... their blindness and arrogance are as solid as an iron mountain."
"Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self"glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them."
"However, they have not acquired a perfect mastery of the art of lying; they lie so clumsily and ineptly that anyone who is just a little observant can easily detect it. But for us Christians they stand as a terrifying example of God's wrath."
"but then eject them(the Jews) forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!"
"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly " and I myself was unaware of it " will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb."


He didnt just say things about these Jews-he did many horrible things as well.

"In 1523, Luther advised kindness toward the Jews in That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew and also aimed to convert them to Christianity.[203] When his efforts at conversion failed, he grew increasingly bitter toward them.[204] In his 2010 book Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy, Christian author Eric Metaxas claimed that Luther's attitude towards Jews "unraveled along with his health."[205]

Luther's other major works on the Jews were his 60,000-word treatise Von den Juden und Ihren L"gen (On the Jews and Their Lies), and Vom Schem Hamphoras und vom Geschlecht Christi (On the Holy Name and the Lineage of Christ), both published in 1543, three years before his death.[206] Luther argued that the Jews were no longer the chosen people but "the devil's people", and referred to them with violent, vile language.[207][208] Citing Deuteronomy 13, wherein Moses commands the killing of idolaters and the burning of their cities and property as an offering to God, Luther called for a "scharfe Barmherzigkeit" ("sharp mercy") against the Jews "to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames."[209] Luther advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayerbooks, forbidding rabbis from preaching, seizing Jews' property and money, and smashing up their homes, so that these "envenomed worms" would be forced into labour or expelled "for all time".[210] In Robert Michael's view, Luther's words "We are at fault in not slaying them" amounted to a sanction for murder.[211] "God's anger with them is so intense," Luther concluded, "that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!"[209]

Luther spoke out against the Jews in Saxony, Brandenburg, and Silesia.[212] Josel of Rosheim, the Jewish spokesman who tried to help the Jews of Saxony in 1537, later blamed their plight on "that priest whose name was Martin Luther"may his body and soul be bound up in hell!"who wrote and issued many heretical books in which he said that whoever would help the Jews was doomed to perdition."[213] Josel asked the city of Strasbourg to forbid the sale of Luther's anti-Jewish works: they refused initially, but did so when a Lutheran pastor in Hochfelden used a sermon to urge his parishioners to murder Jews.[212] Luther's influence persisted after his death. Throughout the 1580s, riots led to the expulsion of Jews from several German Lutheran states.[214]

Luther was the most widely read author of his generation, and within Germany he acquired the status of a prophet.[215] According to the prevailing view among historians,[216] his anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[217] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an "ideal underpinning" for the Nazis' attacks on Jews.[218] Reinhold Lewin writes that anybody who "wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther." According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Heinrich Himmler wrote admiringly of his writings and sermons on the Jews in 1940.[219] The city of Nuremberg presented a first edition of On the Jews and their Lies to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der St"rmer, on his birthday in 1937; the newspaper described it as the most radically anti-Semitic tract ever published.[220] It was publicly exhibited in a glass case at the Nuremberg rallies and quoted in a 54-page explanation of the Aryan Law by Dr. E.H. Schulz and Dr. R. Frercks.[221]

On 17 December 1941, seven Protestant regional church confederations issued a statement agreeing with the policy of forcing Jews to wear the yellow badge, "since after his bitter experience Luther had already suggested preventive measures against the Jews and their expulsion from German territory." According to Daniel Goldhagen, Bishop Martin Sasse, a leading Protestant churchman, published a compendium of Luther's writings shortly after Kristallnacht, for which Diarmaid MacCulloch, Professor of the History of the Church in the University of Oxford argued that Luther's writing was a "blueprint."[222] Sasse applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, "On 10 November 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany." The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words "of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews."[223]"

Luther was not a good man for these reasons.
He was at times a very bad and evil person.
NOTE: Earlier in his career Luther was kinder to the Jews and was a very good person. But he was eventually and slowly turned in such an intense hatred toward the Jews because they had not converted.
wowwhatwhy

Pro

wowwhatwhy forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Leo.Messi

Con

Since my opponent forfeit-I will restate my arguments.
The following are excerpts from Luther's work entitled "The Jews & their Lies":"

"Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools..."
"Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people ... their blindness and arrogance are as solid as an iron mountain."
"Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self"glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them."
"However, they have not acquired a perfect mastery of the art of lying; they lie so clumsily and ineptly that anyone who is just a little observant can easily detect it. But for us Christians they stand as a terrifying example of God's wrath."
"but then eject them(the Jews) forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!"
"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly " and I myself was unaware of it " will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb."

He didnt just say things about these Jews-he did many horrible things as well.

"In 1523, Luther advised kindness toward the Jews in That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew and also aimed to convert them to Christianity.[203] When his efforts at conversion failed, he grew increasingly bitter toward them.[204] In his 2010 book Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy, Christian author Eric Metaxas claimed that Luther's attitude towards Jews "unraveled along with his health."[205]...
Martin Luther was a bad man because he committed these actions.
wowwhatwhy

Pro

wowwhatwhy forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Leo.Messi

Con

My opponent has forfeit again. Please vote con!
wowwhatwhy

Pro

wowwhatwhy forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
@Valkrin, people can actually change.

Martin Luther inciting violence against Jews on the premise of their refusal to convert is an example of that.
Posted by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
I will revise my arguments.

Thanks!
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
Valkrin
Not trying to offend, simply curious.
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
Valkrin
Uh, doesn't your argument prove the opposite?
"He was good at first-but then he changed."
Doesn't that mean he was a good man?
Posted by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
Hmmm...i guess he FF then....
Posted by The-Voice-of-Truth 2 years ago
The-Voice-of-Truth
Oh, his account is closed. This one may take a while.
Posted by The-Voice-of-Truth 2 years ago
The-Voice-of-Truth
Warning! PRO IS KNOWN TO BE HILARIOUSLY SARCASTIC AND REALISTICALLY BLUNT!
Posted by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
PS TK57 I was not biased I just went on the info that was presented and voted on it. Chill out. I am not a liar-I was just voting in this football argument. (shakes head) geez, when you mess with peoples american football teams...
Posted by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
I am just going to argue as normal and ignore his apparent misunderstanding.
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
Valkrin
Pro...what are you doing? He said "good man" many times in the argument, not one "good woman".
lol
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Paleophyte 2 years ago
Paleophyte
Leo.MessiwowwhatwhyTied
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Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Easy win for Con as Pro's single argument prior to forfeiting was a non-sequitur.