The Instigator
DavidMGold
Pro (for)
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The Contender
inasef
Con (against)
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Was Muhammad Guilty of Ethnically Cleansing Jews and Jew Hatred?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/25/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,271 times Debate No: 63934
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (176)
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DavidMGold

Pro

This debate is on whether the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, committed ethnic cleansing against the three Jewish tribes of Arabia. Also at issue in this debate is the open incitement of the most vile forms of Jew hatred within the words and deeds of Muhammad as well as verses from the Qu'ran with corroborating evidence in the Hadiths. At issue will be the following:

1) The three Jewish tribes living in Medina were hospitable to Muhammad and his followers allowing them to move to Medina.

2) Muhammad was bitter toward the Jewish tribes for having rejected his claim to be a prophet when their scripture clearly militated against his claim.

3) Muhammad used a frivolous pretense to siege with the intention to slaughter the Jewish tribe of Banu Qaynuqa evicting them while taking all their wealth, possessions and land.

4) Muhammad used a false pretense to siege the Jewish tribe of Banu Nadir to personally enrich his own family by evicting them and taking all their wealth and land.

5) Muhammad used yet another false pretense to siege the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza after the so-called Battle of the Trench that led directly to the genocide of 800 men and boys, the division of their women as sex slaves, and seizing all their wealth and land.

6) Muhammad ordered yet another attack on the Jews living at Khaybar, including those he evicted from Medina, and the Muslim attacked as farmers were going out to their orchards killing anyone who defended themselves and taking all the women as sex slaves and seizing the wealth. The Jewish survivors were allowed to work the orchards provided they give the Muslims half their crop. Later Caliph Umar would expel the Jews from Khaybar altogether.

7) The Qu'ran itself contains verses that are clearly examples of Jew Hatred and incitement of violence against Jews. This is also evident in the Sunnah.

My opponent is free to begin arguing his case or in the first round or he can accept the challenge allowing me to begin making my case.
inasef

Con

First of all, the holy Quran truly states a hatred between Jews and Muslims, but in anyway legalizes the killing of Jews in anyway for no reason. And this hatred is generated from the times of prophet Israel and his son prophet Joseph, when his brothers didn't accept him as a successor of his father and tried to kill him, and then where responsible for the death of many prophets to come.
Second of all, prophet Muhammad wasn't bitter because Jews didn't accept his claims, and for sure didn't expel them because of their beliefs, when Islam clearly states the freedom of belief. And for the fight of khaybar, in the 7th Hijrah, Prophet Mohammad got information about the conspiracy being hatched by the Jews against Muslims in connivance with other hostile elements of Islam, and decided to take on the challenge outside medina to protect the civilians.
From the book History of Muslims of the World by K.A.Hameed, it was stated the the Muslim army was of 1,400 soldier while the Jewish army was of 14,000 soldiers, which indicates the preparation for the war by the Jews.
As for the fact that Umar then expelled the Jews from khaybar, i don't have sufficient information to deny it, but what i'm sure of, and you can find in many Islamic books that Caliph Umar was not the righteous successor of prophet Muhammad, and he didn't accept many of his acts while he was alive.

And i hope in the next round i will provide more accurate information, to convince you and the voters of prophet Muhammad's good acts.
Debate Round No. 1
DavidMGold

Pro

I intend to demonstrate beyond any doubt that Muhammad (Meshugga), the prophet of Islam, was guilty of one of the most horrific and unconscionable crimes against the Jewish people - ethnic cleansing and genocide, committed with a deep-seated jealousy, acute psychopathy, and malice.

Exhibit 1 - The Qu'ran is Hateful Toward the Jewish People & Teaches Violence Against Jews

The basis for Antisemitism, hatred of Jews, is codified in the Qu'ran, which I would remind readers is recited daily by Muslims throughout the world and believed to the literal word of allah.

A) The Qu'ran claims outlandishly and hatefully that Jews will have their faces deformed and be cursed for rejecting Islam - Surah 4:47 - "O ye People of the Book!* believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out."

B) The Qu'ran outrageously expands it's hateful message that the Jewish people are stamped with "humiliation and wretchedness." Surah 2:61 - "And when ye said: O Moses! We are weary of one kind of food; so call upon thy Lord for us that He bring forth for us of that which the earth groweth - of its herbs and its cucumbers and its corn and its lentils and its onions. He said: Would ye exchange that which is higher for that which is lower? Go down to settled country, thus ye shall get that which ye demand. And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah's revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression."

C) The Qu'ran explicitly says Muslims must not have friendship with Jews - Surah 5:51 - "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."

D) The Qu'ran sneers at Jews hatefully calling them perverse - Surah 9:30 - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!"

E) The Qu'ran's hateful message mentions allah turned Jews into apes and pigs, hence the accusation Islamic clerics still cry out in Friday sermons in the mosque. Surah 2:65 - "And well ye knew those amongst you [Children of Israel] who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected.""

F) The Qu'ranic hate doctrine claims superiority of the Muslims while calling Jews faithless, perverted transgressors. Surah 3:110 - "Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."

G) The Qu'ran specifically calls on Muslims to therefore fight and wage Jihad against Jews until killed, converted, or subjugated by Islamic rule and forced to pay Jizya. Surah 9:29 - "Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute [Jizya] readily, being brought low."

H) Finally, the most infamous Hadith invoked time and again by Islamic clerics and imams, especially preaching in the al-Aqsa Mosque, Muhammad said Muslims MUST carry out a Holocaust of the Jews, a great slaughter, before the Final Hour and Judgement Day can arrive shedding insight into the Islamic religious hatred and motivation aimed at destroying Israel. Sahih Muslim 41:6985 - "Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews." The prophet of Islam also called for genocide in Sahih Muslim 41:6981 - "Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him."

Exhibit 2 - Muhammad's Siege and Expulsion of the Banu Qaynuqa Jewish Tribe

A) Two Years after arriving in Yathrib, Muhammad had openly declared his intentions when according to Bukhari 53:392 - "While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle.""

B) The so-called justification, or cause, is an anecdotal account of the murder of a Muslim by several Jews, but what they fail to mention about their frivolous justification is that it followed him murdering a Jewish merchant. There was no peaceful mediation or arbitration. Muhammad and the Muslims laid siege to the Banu Qaynuqa and given their division with the other two Jewish tribes in the past, he calculated correctly that the other two would not interfere. They were unprepared for a battle and surrendered quickly.

C) Muhammad's intention was to butcher the Banu Qaynuqa, but he was forced to give up on slaughter due to Abdullah b. Ubayy b. Salul, a mutual Arab ally of both, remembering their past support and alliance. According Ibn Ishaq, "Abdullah b. Ubayy b. Salul went to him when God had put them in his power and said, "O Muhammad, deal kindly with my clients" (now they were allies of Khazraj), but the apostle put him off. He repeated the words, and the apostle turned away from him, whereupon he thrust his hand into the collar of the apostle's robe; the apostle was so angry that his face became almost black. He said, "Confound you, let me go." He answered, "No, by God, I will not let you go until you deal kindly with my clients. Four hundred men without mail and three hundred mailed protected me from all mine enemies; would you cut them down in one morning? By God, I am a man who fears that circumstances may change"' The apostle said, "You can have them.""

D) In the end, the Banu Qaynuqa were exiled from Yathrib with only the clothes on their backs and perhaps a few personal items. Muhammad and his followers seized all their wealth and their land and all their possessions. Muhammad took a 20% cut and the rest was distributed to his followers.

Exhibit 3 - Muhammad's Siege and Expulsion of the Banu Nadir Jewish Tribe

A) Less than a year after the expulsion of the Banu Qaynuqa, another Jewish tribe, Banu Nadir, would be expelled from Yathrib. Relations were already bad considering Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, a poet who satirized Muhammad, had been assassinated on orders of Muhammad who permitted his assassins to lure him out at night and brutally stab him to death. It was also to terrorize the Jews, as the Qu'ran commands and Muhammad's biographer noted not a single Jew didn't fear for his life.

B) One of Muhammad's soldiers murdered two men from a tribe that had an alliance with the Muslims and so blood money was to be paid. Note that Muhammad was not sieged or expelled as in the case of the Banu Qaynuqa. So naturually, rather than paying from his new found wealth taken from the Banu Qaynuqa, Muhammad goes to the walls of the Banu Nadir demanding payment and sat outside waiting for it. Muhammad left claiming that allah had warned him the Banu Nadir intended to assassinate him by dropping a stone from the wall on his head thus creating the libel that the Jews intended to kill him and returned with his army to lay siege. They surrendered shortly after as the other tribe had before.

C) The Banu Nadir were given expulsion, only allowed to take what they could carry on a camel, but unlike before, all the wealth, possessions, and land became the sole property of Muhammad. Bukhari 52:153 relates this was Fai Booty meaning that because they surrendered with no resistance all the spoils belong to Muhammad and the wealth went to pay his family's yearly expenditure while the rest was used to purchase more war materials for future Jihad. Muhammad enriched himself on account of the Banu Nadir tribe.

Due to character limitations, the importance of the next two exhibits, which require more elaboration, I will present them in the next round.

Quick Rebuttal

The Qu'ran is explicitly and clearly hateful toward Jews and it does prescribe fighting them in Surah 9:29 as I have mentioned above. Muhammad made the slaughter of the Jewish people a requisite of Judgement Day. It certainly does call for killing and your prophet, considered the al-Insan al-Kamil (perfect human), ethnically cleansed Yathrib, a Jewish city, of all the Jews and out of Arabia. I have witnessed many Palestinian sermons stating the killing of Jews is a religious duty for Muslims. Next, Islam does not guaruntee the freedom of religion and your prophet said explicitly that he is commanded to fight the people until they accept Islam. I will address Khaybar later in detail, but Ali is recorded as asking Muhammad why he was marching on those people and Muhammad said it submission to Islam was the goal.
inasef

Con

inasef forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
DavidMGold

Pro

It would seem to me that my opponent just joined the site and isn't going to be putting forth any arguments thus this is a wasted debate. I won't be putting forth any more of my case if my opponent doesn't return to the debate hopefully leaving it open for debate at a later point with an interested opponent.
inasef

Con

inasef forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
DavidMGold

Pro

Vote Pro.
inasef

Con

inasef forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
DavidMGold

Pro

Vote Pro.
inasef

Con

inasef forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
176 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by DavidMGold 2 years ago
DavidMGold
Yes, he did. "[Muhammad said,] "So I read it, and he departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was as though these words were written on my heart. (T. Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed"Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then) when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying, "O Muhammad! thou art the apostle of God and I am Gabriel."" Khadija offered her explanation - " So when Gabriel came to him, as he was wont, the apostle said to Khadija, 'This is Gabriel who has just come to me.' `Get up, O son of my uncle,' she said, `and sit by my left thigh.' The apostle did so, and she said, `Can you see him?' `Yes,' he said. She said, `Then turn around and sit on my right thigh.' He did so, and she said, `Can you see him?' When he said that he could she asked him to move and sit in her lap. When he had done this she again asked if he could see him, and when he said yes, she disclosed her form and cast aside her veil while the apostle was sitting in her lap. Then she said, `Can you see him?' And he replied, `No.' She said, `O son of my uncle, rejoice and be of good heart, by Allah he is an angel and not a satan." As for the supposed wise man, you don't mind espousing anything no matter how ahistorical it may be, was Khadija's cousin Waraqa, a blind convert to Christianity. I don't see how you can live with yourself claiming this is the prophet of God. I base by criticisms on readily available information from your own sources. I can now declare you are a liar and no amount of Google searching will alter it. I can return the respect but I wish you would seek the truth in these matters other than attacking anything in opposition to Islam.
Posted by DavidMGold 2 years ago
DavidMGold
Please look up the definition of unavailing.
Posted by DavidMGold 2 years ago
DavidMGold
It is hypocritical and delusional to assert that you hold a position of superiority that will also prevail over all others claiming the opposition hide behind immunity on the Internet when you yourself just joined this site with a blank profile and a picture that is not of you. I'm actually surprised you can advance it so shamelessly. You have held a single debate and now proclaim on a debate site that you will not debate any further, which is an admission of defeat whether or not you admit it. I don't find it a struggle nor difficult to have a debate without the formality of a debate as we are engaged in now. As for 1.5 billion people, please, that argument is fallacious and can be proven to flawed on a number of grounds when contrasted with the fact that large swaths of the Islamic World are home to some of the most uneducated and illiterate people in the world and the idea of even questioning Islam will cost you your life. If drastic and unsupported are what you seek, try taking the unsupported claims you introduced about Muhammad and Aisha.
Posted by DavidMGold 2 years ago
DavidMGold
This is what is commonly referred to as a "pack of lies." Aisha was a six year old girl. There's no other man seeking marriage to this child just as the Hadith refutes the idea Abu Bakr "willied" it. "Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."" And the "reason" Muhammad sought marriage to Aisha - "Narrated 'Aisha: That the Prophet said to her, "You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and some-one said (to me). 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done."" As to the lie that Muhammad refused on the grounds she was too young - "Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)." As for her saying "only good things," this is another lie given she admitted to dislike facing him, recorded him physically assaulting her, and generally proclaimed how no woman suffers more than a Muslim woman. Muhammad would face imprisonment in the U.S., minors are unable to consent under the law, and the law expressly forbids any sexual abuse of children (both federal and state). It wasn't a "question."
Posted by DavidMGold 2 years ago
DavidMGold
The only amazing feature of this argument is how ignorantly you deny a lack of criticism of Muhammad's slaughter and ethnic cleansing but as soon as you are presented with evidence of criticism you have the audacity to claim it is me, and not obviously yourself, that lacks any knowledge of these individuals, their works, or more importantly what they thought about the beheading of this tribe. Martin Hartmann did say that and you can find Der Islam on Google Books. No, I'm not "embarrassed" by citing William Muir but I understand why you'd like to avoid dealing with his work on the subject and I'm not aware of the "Time Magazine criticism" of his work. Since you have no shame in eternally propagandizing on the behalf of a 7th century Arab, and do so shamelessly, I will be embarrassed for you. Frants Buhl was a member of the Royal Danish Academy of Sciences and I'm certainly aware of who he was and I won't have you disparage him simply because you dislike his assessment in 'Das Leben Muhammeds'. The only thing "horrible and baseless" are empty accusations of such because they prove to be contrary to your Islamic Apologetics as evidenced by your inability to actually debate the issue with me. You have only demonstrated ignorance in a pathetic and dismal effort to save face over the issue of Islamic Jew hatred and your prophet's campaign of ethnic cleansing of Jews. Your attempts to portray yourself are in full view of a few attempted searches on the web followed by a "he didn't say that" when he did of course say it," alluding to a criticism of Muir that I'm not even aware of while calling it "embarrassing" even though it remains unclear why you believe that nonsense, and an unfounded accusation against Frants Buhl. It utterly destroys your claim that "everyone" disagrees with me. Even Montgomery Watts, who you do like to cite, noted European writers found it to be an ugly event.
Posted by DavidMGold 2 years ago
DavidMGold
Speaking of suicide, and seeing how we are on the topic of Islam, what are we to make of the Sira recording your prophet's desire to throw himself of a mountain after his first encounter in the caves of Hira with the spirit and believing himself to be possessed? "...Woe is me poet or possessed - Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then..." We also have yet another instance found in Bukhari, "But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Revelation was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and everytime he went up to the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Jibril would appear before him and say, "O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah"s Messenger in truth", whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home."
Posted by DavidMGold 2 years ago
DavidMGold
I decided the importance of this issue required a response by itself that there exists an Islamic lie (more than willing to have a full debate) that suicide bombing is a "Western myth." On the contrary, the West coined the term (some prefer homicide bombing) in an attempt to describe martyrdom operations carried out by Islamic terrorists throughout the world. We have numerous empirical evidence of it. We didn't invent the 9/11 hijackers or the 7/7 bombers nor did we invent the weekly occurrences throughout the world. It is preposterous and completely fallacious to deny it. Fedayeen and Shahids are Islamic creations. Dying for the sake of allah. Muhammad said, "I would love to be martyred in Al1ah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred." On the topic you ignore Bukhari, "The Prophet said, "A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's Cause in the afternoon or in the forenoon is better than all the world and whatever is in it. A place in Paradise as small as the bow or lash of one of you is better than all the world and whatever is in it. And if a houri from Paradise appeared to the people of the earth, she would fill the space between Heaven and the Earth with light and pleasant scent and her head cover is better than the world and whatever is in it."" Just as harming women and children, "The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."" You know what Hima is, right?
Posted by DavidMGold 2 years ago
DavidMGold
Well now, at the very least we can say that I introduced you to Ibn Warraq, but you could at least admit he was studied with Montgomery Watt and while I appreciate the wikipedia criticism, perhaps you could have taken to read it a little more carefully because it was a book review, specifically about The Origins of the Koran. Your following claims are simply feeble attempts to justify your own position of endlessly promoting Islam, but at least you didn't attempt the absurdity of claiming Ibn Warraq is "racist." You obviously have a problem with reading comprehension given the first sentence of your selected quote undermines your following straw man argument - "As Luxenberg's work has only recently been published we must await its scholarly assessment before we can pass any judgements [sic]." He goes own to say "if" it is proven to be correct and only on that condition does he offer an avenue of criticism.
Posted by DavidMGold 2 years ago
DavidMGold
I don't take kindly to being treated to bombastic declarations nor do I like to squabble over semantics but perhaps you should consider the implication of your insult that I'm trying to look as though I'm superior and returning to my previous, lesser state. So ultimately you concede your objection about the prophet ethnically cleansing Yathrib, which was a predominantly Jewish city and that was the contention. So where does that leave the debate? You offer up another objection that concedes Ibn Ishaq is a reliable source and mind you I don't disagree that this constitutes the sole authority for biographical information and I happen to agree with the view that it is highly likely that Muhammad did not exist and he was a later invention. As for the Sira explaining why Muslims shouldn't take Jews or Christians for friends, noting the actual verse in the Qu'ran doesn't say some nor does it reference "crushing your head in," Ibn Ishaq said "Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur'an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse." I've already discussed the absurdity of Muhammad approaching the Banu Nadir demanding they make a payment to a tribe because a Muslim soldier murdered two of their people as well as the "source," this unreliable nonsense about allah warning Muhammad about an impending boulder attack as he failed to warn him of the actual poison he consumed after conquering Khaybar that led to his extraordinary pain and suffering culminating in his death a few years after. It was a false pretense to justify returning to lay siege and he profited solely from the event.

Actually, your claim that Montgomery Watts is "very anti-Islamic" is only to to the extent he doesn't totally agree and conform to your whole position. My contention is incredibly strong, you offer no evidence, and your accusation is baseless.
Posted by Proluvies 2 years ago
Proluvies
"My goodness, your prophet's first impression was he's possessed and intended to throw himself to his death and all it took was Khadija to convince him this was Gabriel! "

Nope. Did not intend to throw himself to his death. He ran home and hid himself underneath garments and cloth.

Khadija had not a clue as to what the heck Muhammad saw. After seeing the angel Gabriel, Khadija took him to a wise man from among the Quraish, who informed the clueless Muhammad that what he had saw was in perfect concordance with that Jesus was proclaimed to have seen (i.e. angels and other-worldly revelations). This is narrated with authenticity by multiple sources, including historians irregardless of the Hadith and Quran.
I don't know how you can live with yourself making things up like this--I mean, you base your entire moral and spiritual effectiveness off these criticisms, yet any person who knows how to stroke a few keys can declare you a liar with Google or with the turning of a page on a book.

I respect you for your curiosity, and I wish you peace, but I have exams approaching, and frankly people like you are not worth my time.
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