Was Muhammed a pedophile?
Debate Rounds (4)
The previous debate with this title did not end well, due to Islam been shown false. So I would like to debate a person who accepts the validity of the various Hadith and the Koran.
This argument came up in a recent forum thread that Muhammad is not a pedophile according to the norms of the day. However Pedophilia is defined according to the standards we have today, so Muhammad does classify as a pedophile.
A similar correlation could be to say that Thomas Jefferson was not a slave owner, as when he was alive slavery was accepted. But the fact is according to today's standards he was a slave owner.
My position is that Muhammad is a pedophile.
First round for acceptance.
I would like to extend my thanks to my opponent for accepting this revived debate. I have reposted my argument from my previous debate with some minor altercations here. I am of the opinion that this opening statement is a solid case for the debate in question.
I think it is important to define a pedophile according to today's standards. I think the following definition is appropriate, and I am sure my opponent would agree:"a pedophile is an individual who fantasizes about, is sexually aroused by, or experiences sexual urges toward prepubescent children (generally <13 years) for a period of at least 6 months." This statement comes from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition. (1) This means that I have to only prove that Muhammad had sexual relations or sexual urges towards Aisha when she was prepubescent, below 13 years old. If he had sexual relations or urges towards her in these prepubescent years then we can conclude that Muhammad was a pedophile.
With this in mind where can we look for proof. The sources I will cite first as poof that Muhammad was a pedophile come from the hadiths which report on the sayings and life of the prophets.
The first question is to consider was Muhammad attracted to Aisha, as sexual attraction is also considered as pedophilia. In the Sahih al-Bukhari we can see accounts that are attributed to Aisha where she tells what age she was engaged to get married as well as married to Muhammad. From the following we can see that Muhammad was sexually attracted to Aisha at the early age of 6. I mean if he was not why would he get married to her and take her into his house as a wife.
In Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234:(2)
"The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years)."
In Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:(3)
"He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age."
In Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:(4)
"that the Prophet married her when she was six years old"
Additionally in the Sahih Muslim the same age is getting attributed to Aisha when she was married and engaged to Muhammad. This is further evidence that he was a pedophile which can be confirmed by looking at the following references.
In Book 008, Number 3309:(5)
"A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine."
In Book 41,Number 4915:(6)
"The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six."
Then lastly in the Sunan Abu Dawood we get information of when Muhammad started living with Aisha.
In Book 41, Number 4917:(7)
"When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair were up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine."
In my opinion these stories suggest that Muhammad was sexually attracted towards Aisha, as he was married to her at a very young age. Whether that age was 6,7,8 or 9 is irrelevant as she was prepubescent. This means that as she was prepubescent, we can say Muhammad was a pedophile according to the definition of pedophilia given in the beginning of this argument.
I hand the debate back to my opponent for his rebuttals.
Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia
Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.
Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old. (1*)
You left out some extremely important details that show that we can't possibly determine if Muhammad was a pedophile.
"sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty" This is one of them. We don't have any evidence that this ever happened.
In an article on the WebMD website Ray Blanchard, PhD, adjunct psychiatry professor at the University of Toronto states:
"A pedophile is a person who has a sustained sexual orientation toward children, generally aged 13 or younger," (2*)
We have no evidence that Muhammad had this kind of orientation at all. We only know that he sexually abused one particular little girl for as long as she was a little girl and then had sex with her as a women.
To sexually assault a child or to "Molest a child" does not make a person a pedophile. Nor does being a pedophile automatically mean a person has molested children. Pedophilia is more or less an orientation. Child molestation is an act.
For another thing if one is manic when one acts out it may not be pedophilia. It is not unreasonable to think that Muhammad had some mental health issues. As far as your tirade about the engagement you are flaunting your ignorance of the ancient and even today's third world marriage practices. Arranging a marriage, which could be called an engagement, can happen as early as when a girl is an infant in India and the boy is 10 years old. It's arranged by their families. There was nothing wrong with the engagement or even weird about it. What was evil was his betrayal of her trust and innocence by sexually abusing her and 9 years of age. That is called child molestation. But, we simply do not have sufficient data to conclude the Muhammad was a pedophile.
Thanks to my opponent for their quick response, I apologize that I could not do the same.
My opponent states that I did a hatchet job on the diagnosis of pedophilia. However, I do not believe I did as we know Muhammad was older than Aisha by at least 5 years so the point about age is irrelevant. The only point you added was that the person has to act on theses urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
So did Muhammad suffer distress you asked? The answer is obviously no, as his fantasies were met when he married and subsequently consummated his marriage with Aisha. This means he did not suffer distress, as this distress (if there was any) was relieved by his marriage and subsequent sexual acts. This point is then completely invalid in this argument as we know he married her and consummated the marriage according to what you have said, "There was nothing wrong with the engagement or even weird about it. What was evil was his betrayal of her trust and innocence by sexually abusing her and 9 years of age. That is called child molestation. But, we simply do not have sufficient data to conclude the Muhammad was a pedophile."
I am not sure why my opponent is saying that Muhammad was not a pedophile, because he only had sex with one little girl and then had sex with her as a women. Why does sex with one child make you not a pedophile, there is no limit on the number of children you have to have sexual relations with to classify as a pedophile. This is like saying you can only be heterosexual if you have had sex with more than one person, its an irrational argument. In fact like I said (and you agreed) according to the definition you only have to have over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges. You do not even need to have any type of sex with a child to be classified as a pedophile. This is said in the WebMD reference by the sexologist Ray Blanchard.(1) Also yes, Aisha was an adult, women but maybe we should also mention that she was 18 years old when Muhammad died, so she was barley an adult women. This age comes from the Sahih Muslim Hadith Book 008 Number 331 "'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old."(2)
My opponent stated that, "To sexually assault a child or to "Molest a child" does not make a person a pedophile. Nor does being a pedophile automatically mean a person has molested children." I agree you do not need to be a pedophile to molest a child, however Mohammad had sexual fantasies/relations with Aisha for longer than 6 months and so he classifies as a pedophile.
"Pedophilia is more or less an orientation. Child molestation is an act." Again this is irrelevant to the conversation, as we are not talking about molestation, but pedophilia. Also even if pedophilia is an orientation, it is irrelevant as we are not debating whether it is an orientation.
"For another thing if one is manic when one acts out it may not be pedophilia. It is not unreasonable to think that Muhammad had some mental health issues." So if someone has health issues (i.e. they are manic), they cannot be classified as a pedophile. By definition pedophilia is a mental health issue. This is circular reasoning.
My opponent also stated that, "As far as your tirade about the engagement you are flaunting your ignorance of the ancient and even today's third world marriage practices. Arranging a marriage, which could be called an engagement, can happen as early as when a girl is an infant in India and the boy is 10 years old." I agree with my opponent, but that is why I said in my opening statement where I said we are going to be classifying pedophilia according to the standards of today. Additionally, yes children do get engaged in India and other countries today. There have even been cases where girls have died from internal haemorrhaging where old men force themselves onto these girls at young ages.(3, 4) However, this is not the topic we are discussing I was trying to establish that Muhammad had a sexual attraction towards Aisha by marrying her at a young age, and I believe I did that as you even agreed that he had sex with her at the age of nine.
In closing I think these arguments show that Muhammad was a pedophile, as he (a) fantasized about Aisha and (b) had sexual intercourse with Aisha.
I hand the debate back to my opponent.
(1) Not all pedophiles are child molesters (or vice versa). "Child molesters are defined by their acts; pedophiles are defined by their desires," Blanchard says. "Some pedophiles refrain from sexually approaching any child for their entire lives." But it's not clear how common that is. http://www.webmd.com...
Thanks to my opponent for a stimulating debate.
I agree with my opponent that not every child molester is a pedophile. This is a very important distinction to be made, as the social repercussions are dire for someone labelled as a pedophile. I will also say that anyone who believes they can take the law into their own hands need to consider if they want to be part of civilised society or live in a jail cell, but these are all topics for another debate.
Getting back to the debate topic. I agree with my opponent that Muhammad could have had a harem of prepubescent girls, but he did not even have a harem of women. This does not however mean he was not a pedophile, it just means he did not have a harem. Again I want to reiterate my point form the previous round and that is that you do not need to have sexual interest towards more than one person to qualify as a pedophile. I think this agree well with your quote cited from Sexologist Ray Blanchard who said " "Some pedophiles refrain from sexually approaching any child for their entire lives." But it's not clear how common that is."(1)
My opponent has suggested that Muhammad's primary interest was women and not girls which is not normal for pedophiles. "His predominant interest was clearly in women. This is not true with pedophiles generally." However, this is I do not believe is fully true. Some doctors suggest most pedophiles are married. (2,3) However, I have not seen conclusive statistics for this either and as such am not willing to draw any conclusion. I think however that a pedophile could or could not be married, as the attraction towards a prepubescent does not have to result in sexual acts. Additionally, even if there are sexual acts it does not exclude or include marriage.
In closing I would like to say, I think the histories in the Hadith and other historical documents from the time show that Muhhamad got married and had sexual relations with Aisha while she was prepubescent. This relationship carried on for a long enough time to classify Muhammad as a pedophile. I also use the word relationship here, as he was married to Aisha, so he clearly had an interest and desire towards her beyond sexual acts. These acts and relationship fit the definition of pedophilia outlines in round 1 of this argument. For this reason I feel that to say Muhammad was a pedophile is a safe assumption to make.
I hand the debate over to my opponent for his closing remarks and again I thank my opponent for an interesting debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Romanii 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct, Spelling, and Sources were generally equal throughout the debate. However, Pro gets arguments because, at the end of the day, according to the only sources of information we have about Muhammad's life (Koran and Hadiths), Muhammad WAS technically a pedophile.
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