The Instigator
ConserativeDemocrat
Con (against)
The Contender
I_just_plant_the_seed
Pro (for)

Was Star Wars: The Last Jedi a Bad Movie?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/30/2017 Category: Movies
Updated: 2 weeks ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 235 times Debate No: 106253
Debate Rounds (5)
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ConserativeDemocrat

Con

With the release of The Last Jedi, it has quickly become the most polarizing Star Wars movie to date. I personally loved it, and thought it was the best since Empire. I am interested in debating someone who doesn't think so.

Pro will have to bring up flaws and argue these flaws damage the movie beyond repair, while I will argue either the flaws Pro brings up aren't actually flaws, or that it is nitpicking and doesn't matter.

PRO MUST BE A FAN OF THE ORIGINAL TRILOGY

Rules:
1) Con will forfeit Round One, Pro will forfeit Round 5.
2) Breaking the structure is an automatic loss.
I_just_plant_the_seed

Pro

I accept the debate, and will set out to prove that it was a terrible movie.

Main Contention

The biggest plot point of the movie is that the rebel ships are smaller and faster than the Supremacy, and as a result, cannot catch them or get in firing range. I will attempt to show you that this is ridiculous, and makes the movie unwatchable.

Main Points
  • The first order has marshalled it's entire fleet to destroy the last remnants of the Resistance, so why do they happen to lack smaller ships.

  • We see a single X-Wing take out all the guns on the dreadnought with little problem, but when the First Order sends an entire fleet of fighters to attack the Raddus, they fall back because they do not have cover.

  • Once the chase begins, only the Supremacy follows the resistence ships. All the other first order ships disappear.

Argument 1: Why doesn't the first order have smaller ships?

The fact that the first order does not have any medium sized assault ships which can keep up with the smaller resistance ones is simply appalling. It simply does not make sense for the first order to create a massive fleet, but only make large slow star destroyers which can easily be outrun. Moreover, the reasons they give us for why the supremacy cannot keep, is because the ships are smaller and faster; however, in a New Hope, we see a star destroyer keeping up with the Tantiv-IV with no problem. On top of that, the First Order would have far more advanced technology than the Resistance, so there is no reason to believe that older Resistance ships should have superior speed, despite size. This is all largely irrelevant however, simply because it is ludicrous that the First Order did not bring smaller ships to the battle.

Argument 2: Why did the fleet retreat?

There is absolutely no reason for the first order to call their star fighters back. As we saw at the beginning of the movie, Poe was able to take out all the cannons off the dreadnought by himself. Why can't a fleet of First Order fighters (And Kylo Ren, who is undoubtedly a good pilot), do the same to the Resistance ships. In addition, the Resistance was fleeing! If they are fleeing, they are not going to be able to focus on attacking small fighters. It is simply unrealistic that the First Order would pull away their entire fleet of fighters because they were worried that the Resistance would fight back.

Argument 3: Where did the other First Order ships go?

Here are a couple of ways the other First order ships could have been used to end the Resistance.

1. They could have sent another dreadnought to immediately wipe out the Resistance ships before they could use their magical speed to run away.

2. Since they were tracking them, they could have had some star destroyers light speed ahead and flank them, once they started to run.

3. They could have attacked the engines on the Resistance ships.


These are just a couple of ideas I came up with off the top of my head. It is ridiculous that the entire first order fleet would vanish from the chase once it started except for the Supremacy.


Conclusion

As a result of this major flaw, the film is abominable. The whole movie plays to the impotence of the First Order to utilize their superior fleet to destroy the Resistance. Quite frankly, there are a myriad of ways the First Order could have won the day immediately, but the writers decided to brush them aside, and produce an unrealistic film. This is what damages the movie beyond repair in my opinion. It is not the hastily written in characters, or the poorly developed ones; it is the fact that the main event in the movie is completely unrealistic.


The visuals were incredible though.

Debate Round No. 1
ConserativeDemocrat

Con

I'm typing this on my phone, so it won't be as fancy as other Debate arguments.

Rebuttals first:

"Why doesn't the first order have smaller ships?"

They either don't use smaller ships or don't have them with them. First, at least in the movies, we never see the Empire use smaller ships. And in TFA, the First Order doesn't use them either. In fact, the only ship shown in the movies (not used by rebels) that could be considered a corvette is the Republic's Consular-Class. Everything else, from Star Destroyers to Munificent Frigates are large capital ships.

Also, since the First Order wasn't expecting their Dreadnought to go down, they thought they had the Resistance. Why bother taking ships you wouldn't think you need?

"we see a star destroyer keeping up with the Tantiv-IV with no problem."

The Devestator, the Star Destroyer in question, wasn't actually gaining ground on the Tantive-lV. It was only keeping up. This isn't a comporable scenario to the chase in TLJ, as the First Order's ships were much farther away from the Resistance's cruiser, frigates, and corvettes. Also, the Resurgent-Class Battlecruiser, the main First Order ship, is nearly twice as long as an Imperial-Class Star Destroyer, so it stands to reason that even with better technology, it would be slower.

"There is absolutely no reason for the first order to call their star fighters back. As we saw at the beginning of the movie, Poe was able to take out all the cannons off the dreadnought by himself. Why can't a fleet of First Order fighters (And Kylo Ren, who is undoubtedly a good pilot), do the same to the Resistance ships."

The movie has an explanation for this. Remember Poe making his prank call to Hux? That distracted him from ordering Poe blown up. Furthermore, you are forgetting that Poe was actually hit by the Dreadnought! The combination of luck, skill, and Hux's ineptitude allowed him to survive. Kylo Ren didn't have the Resistance distracted, and there were more Resistance ships, including smaller frigates, which are better at taking out fighters then 7.7 kilometer long dreadnoughts. The Mandator-lV (the dreadnought) has 26 point defense laser cannons, but when they are spread out over 7.7 kilometers, it isn't an instant death for Poe. The Resistance ships likely had more laser cannons, and they were spread out over a smaller area.

"In addition, the Resistance was fleeing! If they are fleeing, they are not going to be able to focus on attacking small fighters. It is simply unrealistic that the First Order would pull away their entire fleet of fighters because they were worried that the Resistance would fight back."

And the Raddus, the Mon Calamari cruiser the Resistance had, lost one of its hangers and the bridge to Kylo Ren. It's not like the Resistance completely destroyed the fighters of the First Order. But the risk of Kylo dying was likely too great, so he was pulled back.

"They could have sent another dreadnought to immediately wipe out the Resistance ships before they could use their magical speed to run away."

My guess is that they thought the Resistance was screwed, as they were going to run out of fuel and get destroyed. They were complacent, and got lazy. This happened earlier in Star Wars. It's why the Emperor thought the Rebels at the Battle of Endor were going to lose, so he ordered his capital ships to hang back and let the Death Star ll destroy the Rebel fleet.

"Since they were tracking them, they could have had some star destroyers light speed ahead and flank them, once they started to run."

My answer is the same as the above.

"They could have attacked the engines on the Resistance ships."

The First Order couldn't break their shielded, and Mon Calamari ships are reknown for their strong shields.

"As a result of this major flaw, the film is abominable. The whole movie plays to the impotence of the First Order to utilize their superior fleet to destroy the Resistance. Quite frankly, there are a myriad of ways the First Order could have won the day immediately, but the writers decided to brush them aside, and produce an unrealistic film. This is what damages the movie beyond repair in my opinion. It is not the hastily written in characters, or the poorly developed ones; it is the fact that the main event in the movie is completely unrealistic."

As I've shown, all of the points Pro brings up have a counter. Maybe it is a little unrealistic, but the movie is showing that underdogs can win. The dominant power was overconfident, and that led to their loss. And keep in mind this is a series about space wizards. This is a series where sound is heard in space, where our heroes can survive in space (Empire, in the space slug) and where bombers can "drop" bombs in space (TIE Bombers in Empire).

And if we are going to use Pro's point how flaws can make movies bad, in Empire, asteroid belts look nothing like that. If you fly through an asteroid belt, you would be lucky to even see one asteroid. And yet there are thousands of asteroids at the screen at once in Empire. Unrealistic? And how is the Empire not able to stop one small freighter, with their thousands of Star Destoyers and fighters?

Are these things a little unrealistic? Yes. But it's a science FICTION movie. There can be stupid things in it.

And this "flaw", if we can even call it that, doesn't destroy the movie. Can you say it hurts it? Yes. But to say it's a bad movie ignores the characters, visuals, and emotion in the movie. Kylo, Rey, and Luke were all fascinating characters. Rey and Kylo's duel against Snoke's guards was incredible. The Battle of Crait was stunning. Snoke's death was surprising, and it really builds Kylo's character. Luke was an extremely interesting character, as he had a brand new arc in the movie, one we've never seen from him, and he was kind of a plot twist as his personality was so much different then what we thought.

To ignore all of this in favor of a "flaw" is silly.

So, I have shown that the flaws Pro brings up aren't real flaws, and even if they are, other Star Wars movies "suffer" from similar flaws, and yet we all consider them to be fantastic movies. And Pro is ignoring good characters and other amazing parts of the movie.
I_just_plant_the_seed

Pro

Forfeit this round, I am not gonna have time to post a full argument
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